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zeme05
05-17-2010, 21:28
Long time GT member, first time in this group. I watched a Seal Instructor on youtube talk about the Sig 226 being a backup weapon to the MP5. He said they use the triple tap two thru the heart and one to the head. I tried this on shiloute targets at the range and find it fairly dificult at 10 yds. Is this practical as the perp won't be standing still? What are your ideas on single vs double vs triple tap?

Gallium
05-17-2010, 21:44
Your tactics aside, I would recommend this:

1. Complete and thorough grasp of the fundamentals.
2. Shooting under pressure (clock or competition).
3. Advanced training.

My idea is to shoot only if I have no other recourse, only if I absolutely must shoot; shoot as fast as I accurately can, and shoot whatever # or rounds to bring the threat to cessation. That might = 4 rounds, it might mean simply bringing the gun on target ("0" rounds).

'Drew

PhoneCop
05-17-2010, 23:10
First, enjoy this:
http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1214090

Then these:
http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/search.php?searchid=5826321

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/search.php?searchid=5826294
:wavey:

CRUEL HAND LUKE
05-18-2010, 11:18
Try it at half the distance (5 yards) and see if you get better results.

First of all, the OVERWHELMING majority of pistol fights happen at less than 7 yards.

In fact they are mostly at 3 yards and less.

I seriously doubt the guy was talking about transitioning and shooting at the head 10 yards away. At that distance most gun carrying people will not have the trigger control to place head shots with any regularity. But at 5 yards or less they generally have no problem with it.

So keep it in context. Seals doing CQB with MP5s are going to be engaging people where? Inside rooms. How big is the room? Probably not 10 yards.

All things in their proper context.

We actually teach firing a burst of 2 to 4 to the body and then immediately bring the gun to your opponent's head level. If it is still there.... then shoot it...if it is not then don't. Pretty simple.At typical pistol fight distance (3- 4 yards) it is not difficult at all if you have a decent amount of trigger control. But this gets exponentially more difficult for most people once you get past 7 or 8 yards.

Deaf Smith
05-18-2010, 15:53
We actually teach firing a burst of 2 to 4 to the body and then immediately bring the gun to your opponent's head level. If it is still there.... then shoot it...if it is not then don't. Pretty simple.At typical pistol fight distance (3- 4 yards) it is not difficult at all if you have a decent amount of trigger control. But this gets exponentially more difficult for most people once you get past 7 or 8 yards.


Sounds fine to me! I'm amazed how many people try to fix their tactics as hard rules when the situation is fluid. Things shoud be flexable.

Deaf

zeme05
05-19-2010, 20:51
Phonecop finally got around to readin the thread. Very good info. It finally dawned on me that all of the paper rippin I was doing wasn't going to help me in a situation. I just started using a holster at the range and it has made a hugh difference. How many shooters couldn't get on target after drawing? I like the COM concept, I'm sure the last thing you would have time to do is concentrate on a head shot.
Thanks

ChuteTheMall
05-19-2010, 21:06
I like the COM concept, I'm sure the last thing you would have time to do is concentrate on a head shot.
Thanks

You can work your way to what Cruel Hand Luke describes.
Shoot a quick burst, maybe 2, maybe 3, maybe 4, whatever, to COM.

Then aim for the head. Either shoot or don't shoot, but don't miss. Aim.

MTPD
05-29-2010, 12:51
Civilian self-defense shooting situations (armed robberies, for example) typically happen so fast and at such close range that I doubt you are going to be able to do anything but shoot COM till they drop, surrender or flee. Which, if you are a capable shooter, will probably take less than 2 seconds. Unless, of course, there are multiple BG's.

I've never known anyone on the street to successfully perform the "two to the body one to the head" trick.

fredj338
06-01-2010, 16:49
Civilian self-defense shooting situations (armed robberies, for example) typically happen so fast and at such close range that I doubt you are going to be able to do anything but shoot COM till they drop, surrender or flee. Which, if you are a capable shooter, will probably take less than 2 seconds. Unless, of course, there are multiple BG's.

I've never known anyone on the street to successfully perform the "two to the body one to the head" trick.
I'm sure it's happened, but it takes a bit of time & a nano second evaluation prior to the shot. You just don't transition to a head shot for the hell of it, not in a civ shooting scenario, unless yo ucan be 100% the shot will not miss. I agree, shoot COM until the threat is down. In an obvious failure to stop, a head shot is great, but not automatic & diff to deliver reliabley under 10yds w/ everything moving.:dunno:

Glolt20-91
06-04-2010, 13:55
Long time GT member, first time in this group. I watched a Seal Instructor on youtube talk about the Sig 226 being a backup weapon to the MP5. He said they use the triple tap two thru the heart and one to the head. I tried this on shiloute targets at the range and find it fairly dificult at 10 yds. Is this practical as the perp won't be standing still? What are your ideas on single vs double vs triple tap?

Shoot 3500-5000 rounds a week like SEALs do and it'll become second nature to you.

Bob :cowboy:

MCKNBRD
06-19-2010, 05:50
I had a friend that once recommended 2 to CoM, then 2 to the hips; he was in a Ranger Bn that was training pretty heavily on MOUT stuff (yeah, it was the 90s) and the reasoning was that 1) 2 CoM was never bad, 2) the hips don't move as fast nor as much as the head, 3) Homo Sapiens can't remain upright without both hip joints functioning properly, and 4) you're VERY likely to get hits on at least one femoral artery. As a follow on, if the BG is still wiggling and he needs to be dispatched, the head ain't going anywhere when the body is on the floor.

I like the reasoning, especially it being an easier (larger and not moving as much) target, and the logic of the shot placement really works, IMHO.

Thoughts from the masses?

Byrdman

PhoneCop
06-20-2010, 07:51
I had a friend that once recommended 2 to CoM, then 2 to the hips; he was in a Ranger Bn that was training pretty heavily on MOUT stuff (yeah, it was the 90s) and the reasoning was that 1) 2 CoM was never bad, 2) the hips don't move as fast nor as much as the head, 3) Homo Sapiens can't remain upright without both hip joints functioning properly, and 4) you're VERY likely to get hits on at least one femoral artery. As a follow on, if the BG is still wiggling and he needs to be dispatched, the head ain't going anywhere when the body is on the floor.

I like the reasoning, especially it being an easier (larger and not moving as much) target, and the logic of the shot placement really works, IMHO.

Thoughts from the masses?

Byrdman

90s sounds 'bout right, I think I first heard or read it as an option then.

It's a viable option.

Though I wouldn't count on a femoral artery hit. Kinda a small target (artery) for the target area (entire hips).

It's not likely to end threat, but would distract and buy time and place the BG as more disadvantage.

If push comes to shove, you could just run away from him... :rofl: