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Magnum 357
05-21-2010, 15:33
First, the situation: Two guys facing each other at 10 yards in the middle of the desert, each one armed with a pistol. There is NO concealment or cover. Both are right handed. Each one is going to draw and fire.

Question#1: Which way you are going to move suppose your adversary is at 12 o'clock.
Are you going to move to the 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11or12 o'clock direction? And WHY???

Question #2: Are you going to: run, walk or walk fast?

Thank you very much in advance.

HK Dan
05-21-2010, 15:46
Probably to 10:30 with a snap start run, draw and fire strong arm. Prolly 3-4 big steps at a sprint. Once the gun is out and oriented, stop/slow down, engage.

That would cause the most disruption to his sight picture and get my gun into play quickly and give me the best possible shot once it was.

Gallium
05-21-2010, 16:34
It depends. :)

Thanks for a really interesting question. My goals are to not get hit, and to make hits as fast as I can.


Most folks are more proficient doing things with their dominant hand when that hand CROSSES the body, so my pre-programmed instinct might be to move to his/her outside (my left).

At 10 yards, I'd have to move quite some distance (in any given single direction) to adversely affect the ability tracking me.

I think I would move & shoot, crouch and shoot some more.


'Drew

Gallium
05-21-2010, 16:37
Most important...I should add that I do not consider myself an expert...

Deaf Smith
05-21-2010, 18:33
Easy. My buddy, who has a Remingon 700 26 inch fluted barrel .300 WM topped with a Schmidt & Bender 5x25x56 scope about 500 yards off near the dunes will drop the other guy when I move my left hand to my hat.

"Always cheat, always win", as Clint Smith said.

Deaf

Sam Spade
05-21-2010, 18:37
5:00, running. Then 7:00, running. Then, .... I started at 10 yards, in two seconds I'll double that. "Serpentine, Marty, serpentine!"

See, you have to have goals. You've given me no reason to worry about shooting him, so I'll just concentrate on not getting shot. Or as Drew said, "It depends".

Magnum 357
05-23-2010, 12:37
Thanks Dan for your clear opinion.
Drew and Sam is so easy to answer a question with...it depends!!! It depends on what, at least say it. The question is simple and to the point.
Deaf, I am accustom that you answer the questions with good answers...in this one you did NOT read the question...THERE ARE NO DUNES!!!...IS ALL FLAT AND DRY!

Jeepnik
05-23-2010, 13:19
Or, go prone and with a nice steady position, make your rounds cound while at the same time presenting a fairly small target. Cuz I gotta wonder, with no cover, where you gonna run?

Gallium
05-23-2010, 14:28
Thanks Dan for your clear opinion.
Drew and Sam is so easy to answer a question with...it depends!!! It depends on what, at least say it. The question is simple and to the point....


I don't know what you want sir. I tried, I really did.

1. I stated up front that "it depends".

2. I thanked you for an interesting question.

3. I stated my goals

4. I stated the possible weakness of the "typical adversary".

5. I stated what I thought my likely course of action would be based on #4, and my own pre-programmed instincts.

6. I stated what I would most likely do.

This is how I approach most problem solving where a human factor is involved.

Since I've had a gun pointed at me (multiple times), and I've been deliberately shot at (once or twice) at less than that distance, and since I've never been hit, it really does depend on my assessment in that instance.

Maybe today I'm going to try and outdraw out-shoot his person while making myself as small a target as possible.

Maybe tomorrow I'm going to simply drop back on my ass and then back, and try to fire with my feet towards my adversary.


When I read your question initially, I was checking and triple checking my history, and how I carry myself, to see if I've ever been in a scenario as you've outlined, or if I'd ever been someplace like this outside of a baseball diamond/soccer field/football field where such a scenario came into play.

I did not make any attempts to dismantle your scenario, I worked with what you gave me, and gave you a honest answer.

And this is how you repay my honesty and time? :faint:

:supergrin:

'Drew

Sam Spade
05-23-2010, 14:29
Thanks Dan for your clear opinion.
Drew and Sam is so easy to answer a question with...it depends!!! It depends on what, at least say it. The question is simple and to the point.
Deaf, I am accustom that you answer the questions with good answers...in this one you did NOT read the question...THERE ARE NO DUNES!!!...IS ALL FLAT AND DRY!

For one, it depends on what the heck I'm doing there in the first place. Since the scenario is something out of a Hollywood fantasy, I'm having trouble putting it into any kind of context.

What are you trying to accomplish here, really? Are you prepping for a duel? That's what you've described, and it's fantastic i.e., something out of a fantasy.

Are you looking for a default direction to move? That depends on strength, training and handedness.

Are you looking for a workable plan in the real world? That depends on the situation and the terrain---a default direction that sends you into rush hour traffic might be bad, dontchya think?

I'm sorry, honestly, but your problem is the shooting equivalent of, "First, assume a spherical cow in a vacuum...."

Gallium
05-23-2010, 14:44
For one, it depends on what the heck I'm doing there in the first place. Since the scenario is something out of a Hollywood fantasy, I'm having trouble putting it into any kind of context.

What are you trying to accomplish here, really? Are you prepping for a duel? That's what you've described, and it's fantastic i.e., something out of a fantasy.

Are you looking for a default direction to move? That depends on strength, training and handedness.

Are you looking for a workable plan in the real world? That depends on the situation and the terrain---a default direction that sends you into rush hour traffic might be bad, dontchya think?

I'm sorry, honestly, but your problem is the shooting equivalent of, "First, assume a spherical cow in a vacuum...."


Sir,

I've always admired you own work in Hollywood and in the novels. But, for the love of Mary, if you're going to regurgitate what I've said just seconds ago..., :tongueout: at the very least, please do properly cite me, so that I may receive credit. :rofl:


(Funny how we said much of the same thing, in different words, a few SECONDS apart! )

'Drew

pac201
05-23-2010, 15:04
it appears you both were typing at the same time...

my answer is I'm so dang fast on the draw that I would just out draw him and shoot him down before he had a chance to respond...

Gallium
05-23-2010, 15:17
it appears you both were typing at the same time...

my answer is I'm so dang fast on the draw that I would just out draw him and shoot him down before he had a chance to respond...


Yes sir. :) I was being mildly facetious towards Mr. Spade.

'Drew

ps - I like your answer. :supergrin:

Magnum 357
05-23-2010, 17:11
Sorry Drew I understand your position now, my fault, I thank you and again I am sorry.

Sam do you think that would not happen in real life???...Sometimes, very seldom but sometimes that can happen. I was just trying to get the reactions of some experts in that situation.

I believe both of you are very professional and have help a lot of people in this forum.

BamaTrooper
05-23-2010, 17:58
I will assume it is noon so moving to put the sun behind me is to no avail :whistling:. I will also assume we have the same gun so trying to dodge 17 rounds of 9mm might get tiring.
Possibly to the left as I go into some sort of crouch for the first shot or two. If he starts to move, I might stay still and not zig when I should have zagged and try to get my shots on a moving target from a stationary position.

Gallium
05-23-2010, 17:59
Sorry Drew I understand your position now, my fault, I thank you and again I am sorry.

Sam do you think that would not happen in real life???...Sometimes, very seldom but sometimes that can happen. I was just trying to get the reactions of some experts in that situation.

I believe both of you are very professional and have help a lot of people in this forum.

Magnum,

I trust that you read my response to you all the way to the end, where I had the >>:supergrin:<< snuck in there. :cool: I am not (was not) offended in any way by your response (any of them). If and when the time comes where I am VOLUNTEERING an opinion, and I am getting ticked off, then it is time for me to take a break. :)

I hesitate to speak for Mr. Spade, and do so very reluctantly (but)...the probable reason why we both said "it depends" is...when you are dealing with circuits and watchmaking and doing gun clearing drills, there is little or no human element involved, so the actions one would take to address certain issues are more, or less predetermined. I am not a soldier, warrior or cop...I've just been unlucky enough to have been on the wrong side of guns. I don't think my reaction was the same in any two of those instances. So, to ask us (me) "what would you do?" is a noble concept, because what I MIGHT think I would do, and what I WOULD WANT to do might sharply deviate from what I actually get done. :faint:


I hope this clarifies my position a bit...not trying to be funny, or difficult. Just trying to relate a bit of pants-staining :embarassed: experience to you.


'Drew

PhoneCop
05-23-2010, 22:26
First, the situation: Two guys facing each other at 10 yards in the middle of the desert, each one armed with a pistol. There is NO concealment or cover. Both are right handed. Each one is going to draw and fire.

Question#1: Which way you are going to move suppose your adversary is at 12 o'clock.
Are you going to move to the 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11or12 o'clock direction? And WHY???

Question #2: Are you going to: run, walk or walk fast?

Thank you very much in advance.

I'm wondering why I'm out in the middle of the deset, how am I going to get out of the desert, and why I am watching two guys dueling it out...

Sam Spade
05-24-2010, 09:24
Unlike Drew, I am an expert (from the Latin; "ex", meaning "former" or "has been" and "spurt", which is a drip under pressure....) :whistling:

To answer your question, IMHO, that could not happen in real life. "All things being equal" never, never are. Someone has the initiative, someone's reacting, physical issues are different and so many other things.

The question that I do think is applicable is "what defaults should *I* start training?" While blindly followed defaults are bad and there are no fail-safe defaults, the training is still an overall good thing; it's easier to modify personal doctrine to the situation than it is to create a plan out of whole cloth.

You know, or can find out, what you can do. Who the other guy is, is pot luck. So training the default response should look towards what you can do. It's easier to draw when move towards your gun side than away from it. Just like you have a strong hand, you have a strong, coordinated leg. It's easier to make the initial drive with that leg. In 5 minutes, literally, you should be able to see which directions feel best for your explosive movement. Odds are that they're 1:30 and 5:00 for the righty-dominant guy.

Of course, you then need to work extra on the other directions, so that you don't trip over your shoelace when the easy angle would take you off a cliff.

PhoneCop
05-25-2010, 22:13
Someone please tell me why I am standing in some desert watching two guys duel?

Mamaluke
05-25-2010, 22:13
I don't know what you want sir. I tried, I really did.

1. I stated up front that "it depends".

2. I thanked you for an interesting question.

3. I stated my goals

4. I stated the possible weakness of the "typical adversary".

5. I stated what I thought my likely course of action would be based on #4, and my own pre-programmed instincts.

6. I stated what I would most likely do.

This is how I approach most problem solving where a human factor is involved.

Since I've had a gun pointed at me (multiple times), and I've been deliberately shot at (once or twice) at less than that distance, and since I've never been hit, it really does depend on my assessment in that instance.

Maybe today I'm going to try and outdraw out-shoot his person while making myself as small a target as possible.

Maybe tomorrow I'm going to simply drop back on my ass and then back, and try to fire with my feet towards my adversary.


When I read your question initially, I was checking and triple checking my history, and how I carry myself, to see if I've ever been in a scenario as you've outlined, or if I'd ever been someplace like this outside of a baseball diamond/soccer field/football field where such a scenario came into play.

I did not make any attempts to dismantle your scenario, I worked with what you gave me, and gave you a honest answer.

And this is how you repay my honesty and time? :faint:

:supergrin:

'Drew

Good post. A modified weaver stance may be better than isosceles (smaller target). Since the shootout is in the desert and there is no cover nearby, it depends on your ability (and your adversary's). If you are a better shot with a clean, smooth and faster draw you win. However, most right handed shooters mash left...so you can move to your left if you want. As NYC DREW posted...there are many "depends" in the analysis.

MTPD
05-27-2010, 10:05
Move, run, walk? Nope, I'm going to be concentrating 100% on shooting fast and accurate! Let the other guy try and dodge bullets.

However, if I run my gun dry before he drops, then I'm going to be moving fast while reloading.

thegriz18
05-27-2010, 10:19
First, the situation: Two guys facing each other at 10 yards in the middle of the desert, each one armed with a pistol. There is NO concealment or cover. Both are right handed. Each one is going to draw and fire.

Question#1: Which way you are going to move suppose your adversary is at 12 o'clock.
Are you going to move to the 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11or12 o'clock direction? And WHY???

Question #2: Are you going to: run, walk or walk fast?

Thank you very much in advance.

I am hauling ass out of there AFAP!

Maine1
05-29-2010, 15:11
If each guy has only one round, its been done in a movie "Saraphim Falls".


In general, I'd move to my left as Drew said, hard and fast while putting rounds on the other guy. I practice this at various ranges.

fredj338
05-30-2010, 11:03
Most folks are more proficient doing things with their dominant hand when that hand CROSSES the body, so my pre-programmed instinct might be to move to his/her outside (my left).
I would say not so when it comes to shooting. It's harder to engage a target shooting across your body (especially if you are fat) than shooting away from your body. At some point the shooter would have to turn to his left to follow you. Going to his right, he can traverse 270deg by just going to one hand. I would move to his left, my right. I shoot better moving to my right & he will have to move to engage me, also making it harder for him to get hits on me. Try it both directions & see hwat works for your skill level & body type. Nice scneario, but pretty unlikely to happen just that way.

Magnum 357
06-01-2010, 09:18
Well, here go MY answer I let see what the experts think!

1) It has been accepted that for a right hand guy is harder to shoot to the right, so I would move to the right of the BG (my left)

2) The larger angle that the BG has to adjust is in the direction of MY 9o'clock, considering that the BG is at my 12 o'clock.

So, in that situation I would move to MY left in the 9 o'clock direction.

By the way the reason I put the two guys in the desert without any cover or concealment was not to have a lot of "it depends answers". NOT because I wanted to put a Hollywood situation.

Now let see what the experts think.

Sam Spade
06-01-2010, 09:56
1) It has been accepted that for a right hand guy is harder to shoot to the right, so I would move to the right of the BG (my left)

As I said, if you're right handed, moving to your left (away from your gun) will make for a more difficult drawstroke. This gets amplified if you're carrying at 3 or 4:00. You'll also be weaker and less coordinated driving off that left leg.

Why do you want to base responses on his possible weaknesses instead of your known strengths?

Cody Jarrett
06-01-2010, 10:41
Probably to 10:30 with a snap start run, draw and fire strong arm. Prolly 3-4 big steps at a sprint. Once the gun is out and oriented, stop/slow down, engage.

That would cause the most disruption to his sight picture and get my gun into play quickly and give me the best possible shot once it was.
Also, the first shots would occur as soon as the gun rotates out of the holster, as I move 2-3 steps to the right very quickly.

Returning fire while being fired upon is unnerving to the opponent. Get some thunder and flash in the air as you move.

Gunfights are won and lost in tenths of a second.

fredj338
06-07-2010, 14:29
Well, here go MY answer I let see what the experts think!

1) It has been accepted that for a right hand guy is harder to shoot to the right, so I would move to the right of the BG (my left)

2) The larger angle that the BG has to adjust is in the direction of MY 9o'clock, considering that the BG is at my 12 o'clock.

So, in that situation I would move to MY left in the 9 o'clock direction.

By the way the reason I put the two guys in the desert without any cover or concealment was not to have a lot of "it depends answers". NOT because I wanted to put a Hollywood situation.

Now let see what the experts think.
Moving to the left & shooting right handed is more diff. for most. You are also moving to the right handed shooters strength, they don't have to move their body to shoot thru 180deg & if they move away from you, they are moving to their more diff left side?:dunno: