MidwayUSA with a bit of a sale on DoubleTap [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Deep Nylon
05-26-2010, 10:31
Link here (http://www.midwayusa.com/browse/BrowseProducts.aspx?pageNum=1&tabId=3&categoryId=7550&categoryString=653***691***&brandId=2521)

$38/box for some loads (about 10% off). Just ordered some 135-grain ammo for fun at the range. :whistling:

Angry Fist
05-26-2010, 11:45
Nice... puts a lil' dent in the shipping. Never seen DT on sale anywhere before.

kippjones
05-26-2010, 16:46
Why is DT ammo so expensive??? I get the fully loaded thing but what else???

Taterhead
05-26-2010, 17:58
DT is actually a pretty good value when compared to other premium SD ammo. DT sells in boxes of 50 so the price is < $1 each per round with shipping. Others sell boxes of 20. $1 per round is right in the neighborhood of SD ammo from Hornady and Winchester; but significantly less than Corbon or Buffalo Bore.

freakshow10mm
05-27-2010, 00:25
Why is DT ammo so expensive??? I get the fully loaded thing but what else???
Maximum profit for what the market will bear (pay). Customers will pay that price for the performance advertised. As long as the product lives up to advertising and the customers agree it's a value, they will continue to purchase at that price.

The difference in material cost between .40 level 10mm ammo and full power 10mm ammo is pathetic. It's really only the powder charge which costs less than a penny difference between full power and weak loads. The powder costs about the same whether it's off the shelf powder or super secret OEM only powder.

Also recall the manufacturer must pay 11% of the sale price to the ATF/IRS for excise tax on the ammunition, so figure between $4-5 per box of the price is taxes they must pay, which is passed onto the consumer traditionally.

cowboywannabe
05-27-2010, 02:24
DT is the least expensive of the full power 10mm ammo companies. BB is full power and full price so to speak.

CB is close to full power but not quite and still costs more than DT.

Win, Fed, Hornady, and all those manufacturers are mid powered loads compared to the Norma orginal data of a 170gr. round @ 1400 fps.

DT claims to be that fast and their old stuff seems to test that way in real world guns, but from what you read here and other places folks are getting "Cor-Bonish" readings with the latest batch of DT.

BB is putting out full power stuff from what others have chronoed in their guns, but you will pay a steep price for it and they dont make a mid weight or light weight defensive load, only the heavy and hunting loads.

CB rates their 10mm loads at only 100 fps faster than the same bullet weight in their .40cal loads.....not really 10mm power, more like a .40cal "+p" so to speak.

Reeds ammo posts some true 10mm velocities with the appropriate weight bullets and is priced very good, but they are out of their 10mm loadings and i dont know what they actually chrono'd at with real world guns from regular Joes.

Angry Fist
05-27-2010, 06:14
Maximum profit for what the market will bear (pay). Customers will pay that price for the performance advertised. As long as the product lives up to advertising and the customers agree it's a value, they will continue to purchase at that price.

The difference in material cost between .40 level 10mm ammo and full power 10mm ammo is pathetic. It's really only the powder charge which costs less than a penny difference between full power and weak loads. The powder costs about the same whether it's off the shelf powder or super secret OEM only powder.

Also recall the manufacturer must pay 11% of the sale price to the ATF/IRS for excise tax on the ammunition, so figure between $4-5 per box of the price is taxes they must pay, which is passed onto the consumer traditionally.

Bigger, not as common brass and large pistol primers too, right? Still... chump change. It shouldn't cost the customer more than 5-10% over .40 to produce....

Taterhead
05-27-2010, 18:06
In addition to the raw materials costs (primers, powders, brass, & projectiles), the 40 benefits from production on larger scale and,thus, benefits from lower indirect production costs per unit. The costs for machine setup, distribution, administration, and other plant overhead are distributed over a larger number of units. As is 9mm and any other more widely producted cartridge. Therefore the indirect production and overhead costs are less for the 40 than 10mm. This probably has a greater affect on the price of ammo than does the direct materials.

freakshow10mm
05-28-2010, 01:44
DT is the least expensive of the full power 10mm ammo companies. BB is full power and full price so to speak.

My ammunition is full power 10mm and $19.50/50 practice, $30/50 Nosler, and $35/50 for XTP. DT isn't the cheapest and I've run into other manufacturers loading full power 10mm like DT, BB, my company, that are priced the same or even a bit lower with reloads.

Bigger, not as common brass and large pistol primers too, right? Still... chump change. It shouldn't cost the customer more than 5-10% over .40 to produce....
No, brand new brass for the .40 S&W and 10mm Auto cost exactly the same. Primers are $1 per thousand more for large than small for the most part.

In addition to the raw materials costs (primers, powders, brass, & projectiles), the 40 benefits from production on larger scale and,thus, benefits from lower indirect production costs per unit.
Brass, bullets, primers, dies, press stuff are identical in cost. If they use a dedicated magnum primer it's about $2 per thousand primers more than standard. The only thing that costs more when running 10mm is powder if your charge is more than a .40 S&W charge.

The costs for machine setup, distribution, administration, and other plant overhead are distributed over a larger number of units. As is 9mm and any other more widely producted cartridge. Therefore the indirect production and overhead costs are less for the 40 than 10mm.
Not true. Surely distribution and admin costs are identical. It takes no greater effort of wizardry to load 10mm than it does .40 or .45 or 9mm. Ammo boxes are same size as .45 ACP as are the plastic trays to hold the rounds in the box. It costs me the same in overhead to load any pistol cartridge in my catalog. Takes the same amount of time, paperwork, all that jazz. There is certainly nothing mysterious about loading 10mm ammunition, but companies like to market hype so good for them.

The difference in component cost between me loading new .40 S&W and new 10mm full power is $5 per thousand rounds. Darn now I got that "five dollar foot long" Subway song in my head.

This probably has a greater affect on the price of ammo than does the direct materials.
Overhead is calculated as a cost and factored to COGS. Price is set from there by any of a few methods. I price my ammunition to a set profit margin across the board. I make the same margin no matter what cartridge I sell. Others do it differently.

cowboywannabe
05-28-2010, 07:41
so when does your company get 10mm back in stock?

freakshow10mm
05-28-2010, 09:30
Hopefully sometime in June. I've been out since September of 2009 due to brass supply. My order for 20K Starline hasn't shipped yet. I'm switching to Top Brass since they have a better supply line than Starline. I got a few hundred cases for free at SHOT show this year to test out before I put in an order with them. So far I'm very satisfied with performance. Also have to finish loading the 9mm and .45 ammo I have to clearance out. Then I'm focusing on full power 10mm and heavy weight .38 Special/.357 Mag (180gr WFN and 220gr LSWC) and that's it. The 1050 will be setup for 10mm and left alone. All the other cartridges will be local sales only and they will be pulled from the website. This is part of the overhaul I'm doing, so I will only have a few hundred rounds in stock of each load for a bit but when sales kick up I will be able to carry more inventory since my capital is focused on 10mm and the .38/.357 will be limited production.

azatrox
05-28-2010, 16:56
Hopefully sometime in June. I've been out since September of 2009 due to brass supply. My order for 20K Starline hasn't shipped yet. I'm switching to Top Brass since they have a better supply line than Starline. I got a few hundred cases for free at SHOT show this year to test out before I put in an order with them. So far I'm very satisfied with performance. Also have to finish loading the 9mm and .45 ammo I have to clearance out. Then I'm focusing on full power 10mm and heavy weight .38 Special/.357 Mag (180gr WFN and 220gr LSWC) and that's it. The 1050 will be setup for 10mm and left alone. All the other cartridges will be local sales only and they will be pulled from the website. This is part of the overhaul I'm doing, so I will only have a few hundred rounds in stock of each load for a bit but when sales kick up I will be able to carry more inventory since my capital is focused on 10mm and the .38/.357 will be limited production.

What is your companies name, and how will I be notified when your full house 10mm loads are ready to be shipped?

freakshow10mm
05-28-2010, 18:05
Link is in my profile. Website has live inventory tracking. If it's in stock, you can add to cart. If not in stock, you can only window shop.

azatrox
05-28-2010, 18:27
Thank you sir.

Total_Recoil
05-29-2010, 11:11
Will you be offering 9x25 Freakshow?

freakshow10mm
05-29-2010, 12:00
Maybe. Correct brass is only available from DTA. If I do decide to load for it, it will simply be reformed brass for cost and simplicity to start with until I have the capital to get my own headstamp.

DWS22
05-30-2010, 01:26
Link is in my profile. Website has live inventory tracking. If it's in stock, you can add to cart. If not in stock, you can only window shop.
FS, I thought you closed shop after the shot show????Now your back selling again???:dunno:

freakshow10mm
05-30-2010, 11:58
I didn't close, but was close to it. Thankfully the LGS has been buying the ammo from the canceled orders allowing me to settle debts, which will be finished and paid off in 2 months or less. I sought professional business counseling and developed (with their help) a business plan similar to when I first opened in 2006. Basically only online sales will be 10mm ammo in stock, no back orders. Anything else other than 10mm will be reserved for local wholesale sales to the gun shops. That's how I started and did wonderful, but when I tried to expand the catalog and be competitive on volume, that's when my business started failing. I'm just going with what worked in the past.

DWS22
05-31-2010, 06:09
I didn't close, but was close to it. Thankfully the LGS has been buying the ammo from the canceled orders allowing me to settle debts, which will be finished and paid off in 2 months or less. I sought professional business counseling and developed (with their help) a business plan similar to when I first opened in 2006. Basically only online sales will be 10mm ammo in stock, no back orders. Anything else other than 10mm will be reserved for local wholesale sales to the gun shops. That's how I started and did wonderful, but when I tried to expand the catalog and be competitive on volume, that's when my business started failing. I'm just going with what worked in the past.

FS, Great, l wish you luck, and look forward to your reviews...:cool:

Taterhead
05-31-2010, 23:57
Overhead is calculated as a cost and factored to COGS. Price is set from there by any of a few methods. I price my ammunition to a set profit margin across the board. I make the same margin no matter what cartridge I sell. Others do it differently.

The difference in price between factory .40 S&W and 10mm auto can be explained by:

Differences in direct materials + pricing premium + higher per-unit production costs due to less efficient production economies of scale.

In the absence of a cartel, competition is a check on price gouging. There may be some premium pricing in play, but that cannot be the total story. That leaves unit production costs.

I think my initial point was missed. I did not hypothesize that direct materials are substantially more expensive, they are not. I also don't believe that there is anything exotic about making 10mm auto. It costs the same to "pull the lever" for a 10mm.

Cost absorption is an elusive science and WAY beyond the scope of this thread. My point was that the big producers have lower per-unit INDIRECT production costs for the .40 because it is produced on a massively larger scale than the 10mm auto. This dynamic is not as apparent with a small production shop. It is subtle. I could write an essay explaining why (in fact I have written papers on this subject), but a lot of folks would probably get pretty bored. Who am I kidding, folks are bored with this post already. I apologize.

By the way, I am a huge fan of the entrepreneur. I enthusiastically wish you tremendous success with your business!

freakshow10mm
06-01-2010, 00:10
No, I understand completely and agree. I've been an ammunition manufacturer since 2006. Difference between the larger manufacturers and the small ones is they make their own brass and bullets where as small companies like mine buy the components and assemble the ammunition (I cast my own bullets for my commercial ammo though). For small guys like me, it's COGS plus whatever markup we can charge and still sell product. In my case, for new ammo the cost difference is negligible.

Also: Price "gouging" cannot be performed on a product that is not essential to life, such as water or food is. Ammunition is not life essential, therefore cannot be a product of price gouging.

Thanks for the good wishes. It's been ups and downs. Right now I'm at rock bottom but building back up and hopefully staying there.

Sheepdog Scout
06-01-2010, 00:20
Good luck.

cowboywannabe
06-04-2010, 01:26
i thought id do better ordering 100 rounds of 135gr. Nosler straight from DT but when its all said and done i spent $2.00 more than i would have if i ordered it from Midway...

lesson learned.

but then again, $2.00 aint much of a sale when its $93.00 vs. $91.00

VN350X10
06-05-2010, 20:46
Freak,
Good to see you're getting right-side up again.
If there's anything I can do to help, give a holler !

did you know that Nosler had a devestating fire last weeek ? Nobody hurt/missing, but their production is going to be nada for 8 mos or better.

uncle albert

cowboywannabe
06-06-2010, 08:39
Freak,
Good to see you're getting right-side up again.
If there's anything I can do to help, give a holler !

did you know that Nosler had a devestating fire last weeek ? Nobody hurt/missing, but their production is going to be nada for 8 mos or better.

uncle albert

well there goes my DT supply for 135grainers. guess i'll have to roll the dice with their 165grainers and hope i actually get the bonded defensive bullets and not montana gold or some other crap.

VN350X10
06-06-2010, 12:57
Sorry about the bad news, but I got an email from our sales rep we deal with at Ellet Bros. so it's not just a rumor.

uncle albert

ps....I'm looking for 135 gr component bullets for MYSELF !

ua

preventec47
06-09-2010, 18:07
uncle albert
ps....I'm looking for 135 gr component bullets for MYSELF !
ua
----------------------

I dont know about availability or any other details but
Sierra also has a 135gr hollow point 10mm bullet.

Also I see that Ranier has a 135gr plated Round Nose
bullet in 10mm but have heard of mixed results when firing
them at high velocities.

( I hope I didnt get Sierra confused with Speer again )

cowboywannabe
06-12-2010, 04:19
got 100 rounds of DT 135gr. Noslers thursday. will try to find another source of good self defensive ammo if DT runs out or is unable to use a good 135gr. substitute...no Montana Gold for me.


ive managed to pick up 51 pieces of 10mm brass from my last outing comprising of DT, Win, Rem.....the rest i shot was aluminum cased CCI...now to find a local guy that reloads and trade brass for practice rounds...