FBI Ballistics a short must read report. Over penetration is what I want.

[alfred10]

Read this short report. http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm
I am doing ballistics research. I have determined that more innocents are injured by stray rounds that have missed the target than by rounds that have over penetrated and exited the bad guy. Statistics suggest that less than two rounds hit the target in a gun fight. Many officers have died from under penetration of a round and it seems more likely that I would be killed by an attacker that my round failed to penetrate deeply enough as seen in the FBI shoot out. I figure that an over penetration will stop an attacker and an under penetration will get me and others killed by failing to stop the bad guy. This holds especially true with the more common active shooter situations. I feel that the my chances and the chances of others surviving are much higher with a round that exits the individual. I also noted that hollow points will fail to expand 70% of the time.

There is no perfect world so you need to choose between over or under penetration and I will go with too much. Head shots and center mass shots are less common than side shots. I want my round to go through bone and keep going.

Stopping power is a myth as the round only hits with as much pressure as the felt recoil. Therefore I will take a round that leave an entrance and exit wound as two holes will bleed better than one.

I want at least 18 inches of penetration.
If 18 inches is archived I want something that expands.
I want something that reliably penetrates barriers.

With this said, what is the common penetration of 10mm against .45 auto? If a .45 penetrates similarly I will go with it as I can control both and feel the larger round will have a higher chance of hitting something important. The FBI report recommends 18 inches for a handgun. I am looking for a hollow point that will penetrate 18-22 inches will a .45 or 10 do this?

[l8apex]

Well, if you want better efficiency from a round, you may want to choose a rifle instead of a handgun.

First off, the report is dated 1989. There has been quite the leap in ammunition efficiency and new information on round efficacy. I'm not quite sure as to why you would need 18" of round penetration as there maybe collateral damage that you may not be able to live with.

Good luck on the research, let us know what you come up with. Handgun ballistic research, depending on who you talk to, what tests were done, and in what environment almost always yield different results.

[maverick9614]

Read this short report.

I also noted that hollow points will fail to expand 70% of the time.




Think you got that backwards. According to that FBI report, they expand 60-70% of the time, not fail to expand.

This is a great place to check out penetration data:
http://www.brassfetcher.com/10mmAuto180grRemJHP.html (http://www.brassfetcher.com/10mmAuto180grRemJHP.html)
10mm

http://www.brassfetcher.com/FlyingAshtray.html
.45 +p

[ronin.45]

Hollow point technology has advanced greatly in the last 21 years. You should look at more modern tests.

I have very little concern about penetration. I don't see myself getting involved in a gunfight with the police or government agents any time soon and contrary to popular belief most street thugs and home invaders do not wear body armor.

I understand that a bullet of a given weight and velocity only has so much energy to expend. The further the bullet penetrates the slower the transfer of energy to the body takes place. If the bullet exits the body I consider that lost energy. If I get a bullet that will expand rapidly and penetrate 5-6"(more than adequate to reach vital organs) I am very happy. That's why I carry Cor-bon Pow'r Ball.

[Chonny]

Pack a 10mm or .357 Sig.

[JuneyBooney]

Shoot the guy in the head and it is done.:whistling:

[cowboy1964]

I am looking for a hollow point that will penetrate 18-22 inches will a .45 or 10 do this?

The only data I've seen where JHPs can get 18+ of penetration is when they go through steel first. Straight into gel or clothed gel, about 13-14".

I wouldn't worry about it. You could always load up a few FMJs lower in the mag, or make your spare mag all FMJs.

[ZmyDust]

Good read. The article may be old but that doesn't have much to do with the info presented except for maybe the stat on jhp expansion. Of course shot placement is first. Penetration is extremely important and The larger the bullet, the slight bit better your edge is.

I think the 12 inch minimum penetration is a good reccomendation. I wouldn't put my life against a bullet that penetrates only to 6 inches. In a self defense situation it's not a paper target hanging there for you to have your way with. Like the report says, you're dealing with less than optimum angles and opportunities to fire. What if your only shot is from the side and your bullet has to penetrate an arm first? 12 inches here can still make it to the heart.

[scprotector1]

Ammo has advanced so much since then, Corbon DPX is some of the most penetrating and virtually always expanding all the time even through barriers like auto glass. Dave Spaulding did a test on it and it fully penetrated the door of a crown vic and expanded and hit the denim and went through to the ballistics gel. Im not saying its the all powerful round but point is ammo has advanced and of course it never makes up for a lack of training shot placement is key no matter what you carry.

[mitchshrader]

If you're looking for penetration, any heavy for caliber round will be better at penetrating than light/fast.. and any square shouldered flat tip bullet will do maximum tissue damage WITH that penetration. Whether such bullets feed reliably is another story, and that's gun design and custom tweaks, not power factor.

In a 9mm, 147+P FMJ flat tip will exceed 16", and there's a bullet with similar stats for each caliber. Shoot the ammo you trust to act as you intend. If hollowpoints don't do it for you, there's some good full power practice ammo that won't break the bank. Just get the squarest widest meplat that feeds reliably on a heavy FMJ or JSP, and quit. Or hardcast lead, if that's what you set up to shoot..

You're there.

[CDW4ME]

All hollow points:
230 gr. in 45
180 gr. in 40
125 gr. for .357 Sig
124-127 gr. in 9mm
If you want penetration use a controlled expansion bullet like the Ranger T or Hornady XTP.

[writwing]

What lost the Miami shoot out was tactics. what won was a 38 SPL properly placed.

The LA shoot out revealed the inability to hit a target in the head and like the FBI the weapons were blamed

Any time a government agency can find a way to increase its budget it will.

[Bruce M]

Sometimes (alot) things happen much differently in the field than they do in the laboratory http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1165386

[ravenkeeper98]

Double tap, enough said.

[BamaTrooper]

Read this short report. [URL]
...
I want at least 18 inches of penetration.
If 18 inches is archived I want something that expands.
I want something that reliably penetrates barriers.
...



What you want, is Caliber Corner :tongueout:

[fmfdocglock]

As a former surgical tech who has scrubbed trauma cases including gunshot wounds I can say that bigger holes=more damage. Typically a shotgun followed by a .45 were the worst in terms of damage, based on qualitatively working 40-50 of these cases.

Makes sense.

It is easier to fix pass through wounds.

Makes sense.

[DubfromGA]

Interesting thread.

I do a bit of deer hunting and have tried a dozen different rifle calibers but always come back to my favorite: .270 Win. I shoot it with great accuracy....no flinch....take offhand shots from either shoulder at adverse angles. Never worried about scope cuts or other.

The only bad experience I've had was when shooting light ballistic tip bullets. I took a buck through the shoulders and it failed to exit and I had to bloodtrail the buck.

I switched to a different load with a Barnes all copper bullet that was even lighter at a friends recomendation (he was adamant that it'd drop 'em). It worked out great on the range and grouped better at 200 yards than my old (and highly accurate load) did at 100 yrds. I tried it the next season and had a full broadside shot at at 175lb buck at ~150yrds. I put the crosshairs on his shoulder and let it ride. The results were awesome. Full exit with great expansion and a buck that folded up like a lawnchair...never took another step.

Went on to use the same load to take two does that same season.





I say all this to say....I've adopted Barnes to other applications as well. My handy little S&W Mountain Gun will be loaded with 180grain Barnes bullets. I've no doubt it'd achieve full penetration on a wild pig....2 legged assailant or perhaps a close ranging deer (hopeful for next season).

Pricey ammo but dang good stuff.

[Z71bill]

1987 :yawn:

[N/Apower]

All hollow points:
230 gr. in 45
180 gr. in 40
125 gr. for .357 Sig
124-127 gr. in 9mm
If you want penetration use a controlled expansion bullet like the Ranger T or Hornady XTP.

Ranger-T is one of the most violently expanding rounds on the market. Over 1" tip-to-tip in .45 ACP.

The XTP is a good choice though. Very small expanded diameters, comparatively.

Gold Dot, DPX, and Bonded Golden Sabre are also good choices.

[N/Apower]

What lost the Miami shoot out was tactics. what won was a 38 SPL properly placed.

The LA shoot out revealed the inability to hit a target in the head and like the FBI the weapons were blamed

Any time a government agency can find a way to increase its budget it will.

Well what do you expect? The head is the most heavily armored, and fastest moving part of the body in most run n gun situations. I find no fault what-so-ever with an adrenalin pumped man who has not been in a ton of gunfights and has just seen his partners/friends mowed down not placing 2 to the brain.

[alfred10]

As a former surgical tech who has scrubbed trauma cases including gunshot wounds I can say that bigger holes=more damage. Typically a shotgun followed by a .45 were the worst in terms of damage, based on qualitatively working 40-50 of these cases.

Makes sense.

It is easier to fix pass through wounds.

Makes sense.

Would you say a hollow point of FMJ would have a better chance of stopping the offender as in he is no longer shooting or running with a knife at you? I think I might just stick with the .45. The 10mm doesnt give me enough against bears so I might as well get a .45 that is cheaper to shoot and be done with it. The repoort is old but had some good points. It stated that the hollow points that tare (I.e. have sharp points) do more damage than rounds with smooth points.

[fredj338]

Shoot the guy in the head and it is done.:whistling:

I love head shooters. Most guys that advocate the head shot, can't do it from 7yds on demand, 100% of the time on a static range. Throw in you moving, BG moving, low light, adrenalin, etc. just not easily done. If it was so easily done, we could all carry high cap 22lr. Geeze!:whistling:
I am doing ballistics research. I have determined that more innocents are injured by stray rounds that have missed the target than by rounds that have over penetrated and exited the bad guyYou are correct, over penetration is really over done. Even if your round goes through a torso, it is not likely to have enough energy to do serious damage beyond the target. Of course, the rounds that miss will go further & do more damage, why I don't care for FMJ. They skip off hard surfaces & if you do miss, they are going through more stuff on the way to an innocent.:dunno:
The repoort is old but had some good points. It stated that the hollow points that tare (I.e. have sharp points) do more damage than rounds with smooth points.

Correct. RNFMJ is a puncture wound. Unless it hits bone, it's almost self sealing @ handgun speeds. Just another reason to go JHP. Bigger holes, more damage, quicker end to the fight.

[N/Apower]

I love head shooters. Most guys that advocate the head shot, can't do it from 7yds on demand, 100% of the time on a static range. Throw in you moving, BG moving, low light, adrenalin, etc. just not easily done. If it was so easily done, we could all carry high cap 22lr. Geeze!:whistling:
You are correct, over penetration is really over done. Even if your round goes through a torso, it is not likely to have enough energy to do serious damage beyond the target. Of course, the rounds that miss will go further & do more damage, why I don't care for FMJ. They skip off hard surfaces & if you do miss, they are going through more stuff on the way to an innocent.:dunno:

Correct. RNFMJ is a puncture wound. Unless it hits bone, it's almost self sealing @ handgun speeds. Just another reason to go JHP. Bigger holes, more damage, quicker end to the fight.

+1 Good info and well stated!

[TedG954]

Stopping power is a myth as the round only hits with as much pressure as the felt recoil. Therefore I will take a round that leave an entrance and exit wound as two holes will bleed better than one.

I want at least 18 inches of penetration.
If 18 inches is archived I want something that expands.
I want something that reliably penetrates barriers.


Wow, finally someone who agrees with what I've always believed. Everyone (without exception) dies from lack of oxygen to the brain. No matter what the initial injury or disease, the final tack is when the brain stops working and that stops the lungs, heart, and every other bodily function.

The best way to put someone down is to stop the blood flow to the brain via a dramatic drop in blood pressure..... thus, 2 holes are better than one. Double the drainage. 4 holes = quadruple the drainage, etc.

I just wish someone would manufacture a TMJ truncated cone round in 9mm +P+.

[glocksterr]

Correct. RNFMJ is a puncture wound. Unless it hits bone, it's almost self sealing @ handgun speeds. Just another reason to go JHP. Bigger holes, more damage, quicker end to the fight.

so true but ... i have heard talk of high speed 124gr. FMJ tumbling and creating additional damage.

so many, but so few understand...

[RMTactical]

Penetration is far more vital than expansion or fragmentation. That is what I prefer in a carry load.

[10mm Universe]

.....

[481]

That report is over 20 years old.

Yep. And in another twenty years that report will be over forty years old.

Neither the laws of physics nor the human body have changed in that time and it is highly unlikely that we'll see any such change then.

Bullets still have the same effect upon bodies today as when they hit them twenty years ago and they will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.

[skip a stone]

Pack a 10mm or .357 Sig.

That's why I chose the 357 Sig. It's more narrow than the 10mm (as far as Glock models go) which means more concealable and although not as fast as the 10mm it is still a very very fast round. I don't think my twelve rounds of Cor-Bon 115 gr 357 Sig traveling at 1,500+ fps will have any trouble penetrating and expanding after coming out of my G33 equiped with a G32 4" barrel and hitting a bad guy that is endangering the life of me or my family.....that is unless they are wearing body armor, but come on that's where the two to the chest one to the head drills come in right???? heh Practice that drill for about 3,000 rounds and see how good you get. Course the Lg-436 Crimson Trace (plug, plug, plug) lasergaurd comes in real handy for that as well.

That's why I train so much though. The last thing I want to be is dead or living with guilt of letting something bad happen to someone I love. Even though I'm sure I would have more than my share of baggage for popping a dirt bag that was trying to kill me, I think I could deal with that a lot more than the baggage of seeing my wife raped or killed in front of me and not being able to defend her because I wasn't armed or ready for just such a scenerio.

[RMTactical]

yep. And in another twenty years that report will be over forty years old.

Neither the laws of physics nor the human body have changed in that time and it is highly unlikely that we'll see any such change then.

Bullets still have the same effect upon bodies today as when they hit them twenty years ago and they will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.

+1!!!

[BOGE]

Actually the laws of physics did change several years ago after the comets hit Jupiter. Or rather we had to rewrite some physics. :whistling: :supergrin:

[TedG954]

"Correct. RNFMJ is a puncture wound. Unless it hits bone, it's almost self sealing @ handgun speeds. Just another reason to go JHP. Bigger holes, more damage, quicker end to the fight."


I don't agree. Blood pressure will force blood out of a wound, whether internally to the stomach, lungs, any other cavity, or externally through the entry and exit holes. HP bullets don't cut a path that stays "open". Soft tissue closes around the wound.

If "bigger holes" is the answer, there's an ad at the top of this page for .50 Glock conversions.

I'll stick with 9mm and lots of holes that go all the way through the target.

[LEAD]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExkUOOXkGtg

This video tells you exactly what to look for in self defense ammo

[fredj338]

"Correct. RNFMJ is a puncture wound. Unless it hits bone, it's almost self sealing @ handgun speeds. Just another reason to go JHP. Bigger holes, more damage, quicker end to the fight."


I don't agree. Blood pressure will force blood out of a wound, whether internally to the stomach, lungs, any other cavity, or externally through the entry and exit holes. HP bullets don't cut a path that stays "open". Soft tissue closes around the wound.

If "bigger holes" is the answer, there's an ad at the top of this page for .50 Glock conversions.

I'll stick with 9mm and lots of holes that go all the way through the target.
Actually, JHP do cut or chop a path, FMJ push tissue aside. Yes it bleeds, but fat & tissue move back inot place & help slow bleeding. One most hunt w/ expanding bullets, larger crush cav, faster bleeding. I've seen the result of ice pick wounds, dozens in a guys chest. Bleeding was slow, guy survived. The reasoon broadheads work better than target points for huntign, again, bigger more ragged holes for faster bleeding. Think of the JHP as a brodahead & a FMJ as a target point. No serious hunter shows up in the field w/ field/target points.:dunno:

[glocksterr]

Stopping power is a myth as the round only hits with as much pressure as the felt recoil. Therefore I will take a round that leave an entrance and exit wound as two holes will bleed better than one.




oh tay, if you say so.

http://www.federalpremium.com/videoplayer/default.aspx

[Z71bill]

Yep. And in another twenty years that report will be over forty years old.

Neither the laws of physics nor the human body have changed in that time and it is highly unlikely that we'll see any such change then.

Bullets still have the same effect upon bodies today as when they hit them twenty years ago and they will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.


So musket balls or modern (1999 or later :supergrin:) hollow points are the same? :rofl:

IMHO bullet technology has come a long way since 1987.

I will concede - a head shot at close range with a musket ball will end the fight - but only a fool would want to carry this round when so many other choices are available.

:wavey:

[unit1069]

I want any bullet I fire in self-defense to expend all its energy in the bad guy.

And JHP is the preferred bullet design, as someone has already pointed out that it cuts a wider wound path, leading to greater wound volume.

Both reasons are why LEO carry JHP in their issued sidearms.

[unit1069]

double post

[481]

So musket balls or modern (1999 or later :supergrin:) hollow points are the same? :rofl:

IMHO bullet technology has come a long way since 1987.

I will concede - a head shot at close range with a musket ball will end the fight - but only a fool would want to carry this round when so many other choices are available.

:wavey:

Yes, musket balls are very much the same as they have always been. They are still round and still made of lead.

Why are you carrying a musket around for CCW/SD? Isn't kind of hard to conceal? If you are "open carrying" your musket, don't you draw stares from everyone around you like when you walk into a restaurant with it slung over your shoulder? Do you also wear "period specific clothing" (coon skin cap, buckskin coat, etc.) when you carry your musket about town? Is your musket a percussion or flintlock and did the "great Obama ammo scare" effect your ability to acquire ammo as much as it did those of us who use centerfire handguns for CCW/SD?

My, this is intriquing. Please tell me more!

[uz2bUSMC]

This thread is all F'd up, I hate when a thread in GG gets moved here.

And then there is Urey Patrick...*sigh*. I only agree with one thing that he has ever said in that article (Well, pretty sure just one).

[481]

This thread is all F'd up, I hate when a thread in GG gets moved here.

And then there is Urey Patrick...*sigh*. I only agree with one thing that he has ever said in that article (Well, pretty sure just one).


M-

OK, now I gotta ask 'cause you've sparked my curiosity and I am certain that we've never discussed it...

What is the one thing :supergrin: said by Agt. Patrick that you agree with?

Enquiring minds wanna know!


BTW, You get my last PM? (quite some time ago) Haven't heard from you for a long time.

[uz2bUSMC]

M-

OK, now I gotta ask 'cause you've sparked my curiosity and I am certain that we've never discussed it...

What is the one thing :supergrin: said by Agt. Patrick that you agree with?

Enquiring minds wanna know!


BTW, You get my last PM? (quite some time ago) Haven't heard from you for a long time.

Yes, I have gotten it, and admittedly... I've been slackin'. Kept meanin' to get back to you... and I would have soon, actually. My apologies, C.

Patrick says, to paraphrase, " The Handgun Must Prevail". Most carry the coin (a phrase) around in their pocket that says they will fight their way back to a long gun. No, no you won't. The action will take place and your tool for survival will be the tool on your side. If you are going to a fight, you will most likely arrive at the party with a long gun. If it's a surprise party you will have to win "right now" with what you have, there will be no pause for selection of the M4 or the shotty.

[481]

Yes, I have gotten it, and admittedly... I've been slackin'. Kept meanin' to get back to you... and I would have soon, actually. My apologies, C.

Patrick says, to paraphrase, " The Handgun Must Prevail". Most carry the coin (a phrase) around in their pocket that says they will fight their way back to a long gun. No, no you won't. The action will take place and your tool for survival will be the tool on your side. If you are going to a fight, you will most likely arrive at the party with a long gun. If it's a surprise party you will have to win "right now" with what you have, there will be no pause for selection of the M4 or the shotty.

M-

No problem.

Welcome to Club We-B-Slackin'!!! from a fellow charter member. :yawn:

Must be the time of the year or something. I, too, have recently found a thousand trivial things to clog every second of every minute of my days and nights plus the odd "family emergency" here and there. :whistling:



Yet again, I find myself in agreement with you. Those who 'think' that there will be time to "fight their way back" to a(ny) more desirable weapon during a gunfight are fooling only themselves. Brevity, logistics and just the plain unpredictability of "when" such a thing (a gunfight) might occur makes such thinking fantasy at best and a recipe for personal disaster at worst.



PM when you get a chance. Gotta git for a while, but I'll shoot you one soon. :)