Converting 870 Express to "Police" 870 [Archive] - Glock Talk

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matteblack
06-02-2010, 14:50
Hello, I was hoping someone had insight on what parts I can swap out to bring my Express into the Remington Police setup. Right now I have 1) Police steel parkerized trigger plate assem. 2) swap extractors for the machined (non MIM) part. 3) Extra power springs/performance kit?

Thanks :cool:
MB

TECH51
06-02-2010, 15:10
Send a PM to aippi

matteblack
06-02-2010, 15:19
Thank you

aippi
06-02-2010, 17:37
He did and I told him forget the cast metal P trigger plate assembly. The polymer one he has is more durable and I use the polymer on all my personal 870's. For those of you that want to disagree simply go to www.aiptactical.com (http://www.aiptactical.com) and click on the "Build your weapon link. Have way down that page find the "Ruger Video" link and click on that then find and watch the Ruger drop test on that page. See, I am correct. And by the way, for all you guys that think the P trigger plate is different, only the housing and one spring is differnet and all parts are the exact same as any 870 and yes there are MIM parts in the 870 police trigger plate assembly.

Save that money and stick with the better trigger plate assembly you alread have. But if you don't want to believe any of this, I sell the P trigger palte assembly for $86 and will be happy to take money from you for nothing as I am a Remington parts dealer. Not a good one, as I would make more money keeping my mouth shut.

matteblack
06-02-2010, 17:45
Thanks aippi!

Since my 870 express has the factory 7 shot tube and speedfeed stock and fore end, I've decided from aippi's input that I will do two mods:

1) Replace MIM extractor with machined steel Part #F16176

2) keep polymer triggerguard but install the carrier latch spring Part #F16966

:cool:

TECH51
06-02-2010, 18:26
In the words of J.D. cool beans...........

Ferdinandd
06-02-2010, 20:16
I'd like to have that great looking walnut P-model furniture, if the price isn't excessive. Anyone know where to get a P stock set?

ElevatedThreat
06-02-2010, 20:21
Sorry, but you can't readily upgrade today's short-cut, Express-type Remington 870 to the same quality as a Police Magnum LE gun. Not without a lot of work.

Remington now builds its Police Magnum guns at a completely separate manufacturing facility, with more care, different parts, and a totally different staff.

Non-LE parts and non LE-trained assembly workers are forbidden to even be in the LE manufacturing facility.

Besides just several better key parts (metal vs. cheap-feeling plastic, machined vs. MIM), better internal polishing of the receiver, and better fitting/Quality Control are a big part of the difference.

Don't take my word for it -- read what Remington itself has to say about it HERE:

www.remingtonmilitary.com/articles/870ExpvsPol6-30-05.pdf

Back when Remington made all its 870 guns to the old Wingmaster standards, a Remington sporting shotgun was the same as a Remington LE gun, and vice versa.

But in the current age of the much-cheapened Express, the two guns are quite different in feel and overall quality.

Trust me, if Remington could sell its cheaper sports-grade shotguns to Law Enforcement, they would. The fact that they go to the huge expense of maintaining a completely different parts line and manufacturing facility for the Law Enforcement shotgun line, tells you that the differences matter -- both to Remington and to its LE customers.

-ET

aippi
06-02-2010, 21:01
Elevated Threat - you are exactly what the Marketing guys pray for. Now explain to me why the following on the Remington 2010 part list

Express matte finish Receiver $247
Police parkerized Receiver $247
Wingmaster Blued Receiver $247

Express breech bolt $ 93
Police Breech blot $ 93

18.5" Express bead sight barrel $135
18.5" Parkerized Police bead sight barrel $101

Down load the parts list and use your head. Also the P models are not manufactured at a seperate facility. They are 870's and manufactured along with the other 870's. They are assembled in a gaged area about the size of my shop on the same floor and a few feet from where other guys are assembling the other 870's. Been there twice and seen it.

Since your post directly counters mine, I will say this, you don't know what you are talking about man and you are just repeating what you read some place. You even link to the marketing stuff they put out. I on the other hand do this for a living and only with the 870 and 11-87. Add the fact that I am trained by the manufacturer at their factory and work on these weapons most every day. Let the readers decide who know what they are talking about.

Nothing personal man, don't mean to come down on you but you posted stuff like you knew it for a fact and you are very wrong. I have to speak out when someone post stuff that is not correct.

OH, yea. There are MIM parts in the every 870 including the 870 Police dude so you are even wrong about that.

F_G
06-02-2010, 21:09
JD has given me some great advice on my 870P and hopefully I can throw some business his way some day. He seems to have a very good reputation with people that have dealt with him. Not sure what Elevated Threats credentials are, seems adept at using google and contradicting almost everything aippi says.

TECH51
06-02-2010, 21:30
X2 all that ask me about a 870 I tell them JD is the man.............

sambeaux2249
06-02-2010, 23:44
Wow. That PDF is woefully out of date. Just look at their product line and you can see that the PDF is no longer valid. ISS is long gone. Some Express models DO use the ball detent system. My 870 Express came with the short forend.

I can't speak to the accuracy of the rest, but JD already has.

Sam

aippi
06-03-2010, 18:35
Yet every time this comes up, someone paste that mess on to their reply like it is some kind of gospel.

go to any gun shop and look at the box any of the new Tactical or HD's come in. The lable will state 18" barrel. Yet Remington has not made 18" barrels for a couple years and the weapon will have an 18.5" barrel on it. They have not even changed the lables on the boxes for new fire arms so having not changed the marketing mess on their web site is of no surprise.

None of this bothers me as I know the products and know this is one of the best pump shotguns made. I have 5 personal 870's ( all built on the Express) and if I wasn't old and could have another kid I would name him Remington. But for the sake of good business practices I would expect them to keep things current as a lot of buyers only know what they read on the web site and see in the marketing mess they put out.

Snafu
06-04-2010, 05:47
A few weeks back I went through the Remington armorers course. The instructor did not go into too many details, but it sure sounds like JD is correct based on what I heard.

My department has some old, beat up 870s that still work just fine. I think the average person will never use/abuse one enough to make a bit if difference between the Express and P models. I would suggest more time training in the use of the shotgun and less worry about the small stuff.

DPris
06-04-2010, 10:46
The alloy Police triggerplate material itself may not offer any improvement over the polymer one, but the Police version comes with a stronger sear spring, and a stronger carrier dog spring.
Those are both worth the money to me. Both could be installed as replacements in existing Express triggerplate assemblies by a competent gunsmith, if you don't want to "spring" (couldn't help it :D) for an entirely new complete assembly.
There's also a stronger mag spring that I'd switch to.

And there's the Heavy Police/Marine Hammer Spring (Part #97573) used by the Coast Guard that's an option.

My three 870s ranging from a 1960s era HP trade-in to a two-year-old PMAX have the heavier springs mentioned, Vang Comp safeties, and forged extractors.
The stronger springs give me a little more peace of mind in cycling the actions in the types of defensive situations I acquired those guns for, the forged extractor seems to be wearing better than the less dense MIM equivalents, and the oversized VC safety button pretty much OFFs itself as soon as I insert a finger in the guard. No fumbling, no real thought required.

If I had an Express model I was going to bet my life on, these would be the upgrades (along with ensuring a smooth chamber & reliable extraction) I'd do to it.

Denis

matteblack
06-04-2010, 10:58
The alloy Police triggerplate material itself may not offer any improvement over the polymer one, but the Police version comes with a stronger sear spring, and a stronger carrier dog spring.
Those are both worth the money to me. Both could be installed as replacements in existing Express triggerplate assemblies by a competent gunsmith, if you don't want to "spring" (couldn't help it :D) for an entirely new complete assembly.
There's also a stronger mag spring that I'd switch to.

And there's the Heavy Police/Marine Hammer Spring (Part #97573) used by the Coast Guard that's an option.

My three 870s ranging from a 1960s era HP trade-in to a two-year-old PMAX have the heavier springs mentioned, Vang Comp safeties, and forged extractors.
The stronger springs give me a little more peace of mind in cycling the actions in the types of defensive situations I acquired those guns for, the forged extractor seems to be wearing better than the less dense MIM equivalents, and the oversized VC safety button pretty much OFFs itself as soon as I insert a finger in the guard. No fumbling, no real thought required.

If I had an Express model I was going to bet my life on, these would be the upgrades (along with ensuring a smooth chamber & reliable extraction) I'd do to it.

Denis

Tanks. Its my understanding that since I have the factory 7 shot tube that I therefore have the stronger mag spring. Correct anyone?

aippi
06-04-2010, 11:20
Remington stopped putting the 7-8lb sear spring in the P models a year ago. All 870 Police models come with the same sear 4-5 lb sear spring as the Express. All 870P trigger plate assemblies on the parts list also come with the 4-5 pound sear spring. Remington discoverd the 7-8 pound sear spring causing undo wear over time and thus stopped using it. There is no stronger hammer spring and every 870 comes with the same hammer spring except the Marine and that is the same strength spring but plated and does nothing to the operation of the weapon. I do not know this for a fact but have been told the plating flakes off these springs and some guys that have had this happen will not use them. Anyone having input about this flaking please jump in.

The is only one mag spring for the two and three shot Remington extension and it comes in every 870 or 11-87 that has the extension. Same spring in both the 2 and 3 shot. And yes there is a plated one in the Marine, however, it cost the exact same as the other ones, $3.40. The Hammer springs cost the same, $3.20, the Receivers cost the same, $247.00. Makes you wonder since most all the parts cost the same, why does the Marine Magunm cost so much more. Have I mentioned Marketing?

Please take no offense if I conter a post one of you guys make. If you post somthing that is incorrect, I am simply correcting it. We are not talking about opinions here, we are talking about facts and if you post an incorrect fact about an 870 then guys are getting the wrong information and I give the correct the information. I am not putting anyone down, I am simply correcting the information posted. I only post what I know to be a fact based on my training and I share that with the guys on the forum. Yet, some guys take offence and start trying to have a pissing contest with me. I don't want this, don't have time for it and it has come close to making me say the F these bolgs. But I hang in there 'cause every now and then I get an e-mail from a Remington guy saying thanks and I use these blogs for question about my other weapons as I have limited knowkedge of them, so I am paying back for all the help I got.

bsg1
06-04-2010, 11:58
i am not a shotgun expert, or even close. my "thing" has always been handguns; my favorites being w german sigs. i am not even close to being an expert with my sigs.... that being said... i would love to prove aippi wrong on something, ANYTHING! but the man is smart enough to only talk about what he actually knows when he is giving advice; that goes a bit past knowledge; it implies some wisdom. he has helped me with advise that saved me countless hours of research and money; later when i backtracked... yep he was absolutely right with all advise he gave me. i don't forget when a man has gone out of his way for me, and doesn't even know me....

DPris
06-04-2010, 12:11
The parts info I mentioned above came from an email this morning from my certified LE Remington gunsmith of 25 years. I'd asked for the parts differences between the Express & the LE guns, that's what came back.

Mag springs can vary from short basic four-round tubes to longer factory-installed extensions & customer-installed extensions.
My primary point there was to go with the strongest factory spring (or aftermarket equivalent) for your own individual mag tube & length, whatever that may be.
I still retain my preferences for stronger springs & forged extractors. :)

Aip,
Had considered doing a project with you, you seem knowledgeable & undoubtedly are, but have to say your confrontational & dogmatic style has lost interest for me. :)
Some of us are posting the best info we have, and your style in responding could be a little friendlier.

Denis

Hucklebarry
06-04-2010, 15:48
Some of us are posting the best info we have, and your style in responding could be a little friendlier.

Denis


Wow. He's done everything but hold your (collective) hand and kiss your (collective) butt. It would seem, with the experience and training and DAILY work, that he would know what he's talking about.

He is citing their parts list and his visit to the plant, while others are citing "a guy I know."

Gotta love the web! :supergrin:

aippi
06-04-2010, 15:51
DPris - you sent me an PM with honest advise about the way I respond to post and it shows you are stand up guy. I will certainly try and take some of your adivse but at my age, trying may be all I can manage.

All I did was correct your post as you gave out of date information and incorrect information. Nothing confrontational there. Just a "Joe Friday" I don't do warm fuzzies, never have, never will. The highest compliment I ever received in my career was when a Captain was asked about the new Colonel (me) that was coming in. He told them this "Before you ask Colonel McGuire a question, make sure you can handle the answer".

And yes, the springs are some of the most important things to ensure feed and function on an 870 and the average cost of any one of them is $3.40. for this reason I recomend changing them out often. Anyone owning an 870 should simply place an order with Remington for the a few each of key springs in their 870 and change them out once or twice a year, based on the use of the weapon. That 870 will keep rocking for years.

DPris
06-04-2010, 22:00
Huck,
My post was the result of personal talks over the phone with a production manager at Remington on the subject of the police 870s two years ago, experience with Vang Comp on a gun he built for me, experience with a Scattergun Technologies 870 rebuild I own, a PMAX 870 I own, and continuing talks with my Remington certified 870 LE dealer & armorer, a man I've known & spent literally thousands of dollars with over the past 25 years.

I asked him specifically what the different parts are between the two guns because I'm finishing up an article on this very subject of 870 upgrades & wanted to be as accurate as I possibly can in passing along useful info to anybody who might read the piece.

He looked up the parts again (we've had discussions over them before) & passed on to me in an email this morning the results, taken directly from his Remington-supplied dealer parts list.
I passed that on in a sincere effort here to address the original question of upgrading from Express to Police.

No offense to JD, and I don't doubt his competence, but I don't know him personally. I do know Hans Vang. I've always had reliable info from my Remington factory contact in the past. I would not still be spending sizable money with the guy I've known locally for 25 years if he had not turned out to be right far more often than wrong.

I've worked with an Express 870, OK gun but no comparison to what I have in my three personal 870s.

As far as JD doing everything but holding my hand & kissing my butt goes, his
"daily" experiences may be perfectly valid, but I don't lightly dismiss my own experiences in dealing with other highly qualified companies & their 870 "daily" experiences & work, and my own guns.
I did not stumble across the 870 shotgun for the first time last Tuesday. :)

It doesn't have to be a Battle Of The Super Heroes on this.
I've got my sources, you've got JD.

The primary differences boil down to stronger springs in the LE guns, a forged extractor in LE guns as opposed to a MIM extractor, and the possible relatively recent change in dropping down to a lighter sear spring in LE guns in the past year or so, according to JD.
I've stated the Police alloy trigger plate is not in itself superior to polymer (fully agree with JD there), but if you're gonna order a replacement as an upgrade, the Police TP comes with the stronger carrier dog spring, reason enough FOR ME to buy that alloy TP assembly right there. You can go that route & drop the unit in yourself, or you can pay a gunsmith to R&R the Express spring with the LE spring in your existing Express TP.

The 870 is an excellent Doomsday Shotgun in that its modular construction can allow easy parts replacements (entire drop-in sub-assemblies or minor small parts such as firing pin) at home or in the wilds without gunsmith skills or services on your own.
I've accumulated spare assemblies & parts for my guns, and those are all the better grade versions.
If I buy an extractor, it won't be a MIM piece.

I don't think JD & I are miles apart on the above, and I've not taken any cheap shots at him privately or here.

My suggestion to JD (and at my age I can do crusty too :) ) was not that he stop correcting mis-information, but just that he be aware that he comes across as somewhat condescending in making them, and that can turn off both readers & potential customers.

JD,
Sent you another PM.
I think we understand each other. :)

Denis

aippi
06-04-2010, 22:47
DPris - the carrier dog follower spring used in the P models is not even an 870 part. It is a model 1100 carrier latch spring and is part number F16966 and cost $3.20. If a guys goes to www.aiptactical.com (http://www.aiptactical.com) and find the "how to videos" he will find one showing how to change out that spring. Once you have the trigger plate assembly out it will take about three minutes. I even show how to do it with a Phillips head screw driver as guys will not the tool we use laying around.

I bring this up because if you look at the Remington parts list it will show a Carrier Dog Follower Spring (Heavy) and most guys buy that and think they are getting the one that comes in the P models. At one time there was a standard spring and the Heavy spring but a few years back Remington dropped the standard spring and all their shotguns now come with the Heavy spring, except of course the P model which uses the 1100 carrier latch spring as the carrier dog follower spring. You will notice in the video that the one the P model uses is black in color and the other is silver.

Hucklebarry
06-04-2010, 23:25
Huck,
My post was the result of personal talks over the phone with a production manager at Remington on the subject of the police 870s two years ago, experience with Vang Comp on a gun he built for me, experience with a Scattergun Technologies 870 rebuild I own, a PMAX 870 I own, and continuing talks with my Remington certified 870 LE dealer & armorer, a man I've known & spent literally thousands of dollars with over the past 25 years.

I asked him specifically what the different parts are between the two guns because I'm finishing up an article on this very subject of 870 upgrades & wanted to be as accurate as I possibly can in passing along useful info to anybody who might read the piece.

He looked up the parts again (we've had discussions over them before) & passed on to me in an email this morning the results, taken directly from his Remington-supplied dealer parts list.
I passed that on in a sincere effort here to address the original question of upgrading from Express to Police.

No offense to JD, and I don't doubt his competence, but I don't know him personally. I do know Hans Vang. I've always had reliable info from my Remington factory contact in the past. I would not still be spending sizable money with the guy I've known locally for 25 years if he had not turned out to be right far more often than wrong.

I've worked with an Express 870, OK gun but no comparison to what I have in my three personal 870s.

As far as JD doing everything but holding my hand & kissing my butt goes, his
"daily" experiences may be perfectly valid, but I don't lightly dismiss my own experiences in dealing with other highly qualified companies & their 870 "daily" experiences & work, and my own guns.
I did not stumble across the 870 shotgun for the first time last Tuesday. :)

It doesn't have to be a Battle Of The Super Heroes on this.
I've got my sources, you've got JD.

The primary differences boil down to stronger springs in the LE guns, a forged extractor in LE guns as opposed to a MIM extractor, and the possible relatively recent change in dropping down to a lighter sear spring in LE guns in the past year or so, according to JD.
I've stated the Police alloy trigger plate is not in itself superior to polymer (fully agree with JD there), but if you're gonna order a replacement as an upgrade, the Police TP comes with the stronger carrier dog spring, reason enough FOR ME to buy that alloy TP assembly right there. You can go that route & drop the unit in yourself, or you can pay a gunsmith to R&R the Express spring with the LE spring in your existing Express TP.

The 870 is an excellent Doomsday Shotgun in that its modular construction can allow easy parts replacements (entire drop-in sub-assemblies or minor small parts such as firing pin) at home or in the wilds without gunsmith skills or services on your own.
I've accumulated spare assemblies & parts for my guns, and those are all the better grade versions.
If I buy an extractor, it won't be a MIM piece.

I don't think JD & I are miles apart on the above, and I've not taken any cheap shots at him privately or here.

My suggestion to JD (and at my age I can do crusty too :) ) was not that he stop correcting mis-information, but just that he be aware that he comes across as somewhat condescending in making them, and that can turn off both readers & potential customers.

JD,
Sent you another PM.
I think we understand each other. :)

Denis



DPris,

I'm certain that both of y'all know much, much more about 870's than I ever will. All I know about them is that I've owned them for 25 years, though I've never done anything to the internals. I buy them, I shoot them. I have never had one fail me in any way.

My post was due to the fact that, in his posts, he went out of his way to state that he wasn't trying to put anyone down or insult anyone. And, that he was merely stating the facts as he knows them, to dispel any misconceptions. I didn't see any condescension in his posts; quite the opposite. Perhaps I'm just as ornery as he is. :supergrin:

I guess I was most put off by your stating that you won't being doing business with him, due to his "style." Perhaps that should have been kept private, in a PM. But, to each his own.

Huck

GotDogs
06-04-2010, 23:36
The parts info I mentioned above came from an email this morning from my certified LE Remington gunsmith of 25 years. I'd asked for the parts differences between the Express & the LE guns, that's what came back.

Mag springs can vary from short basic four-round tubes to longer factory-installed extensions & customer-installed extensions.
My primary point there was to go with the strongest factory spring (or aftermarket equivalent) for your own individual mag tube & length, whatever that may be.
I still retain my preferences for stronger springs & forged extractors. :)

Aip,
Had considered doing a project with you, you seem knowledgeable & undoubtedly are, but have to say your confrontational & dogmatic style has lost interest for me. :)
Some of us are posting the best info we have, and your style in responding could be a little friendlier.

Denis

I could not have said it better. I have been following this thread, last night I was going to post to this thread as I found AIP " JD " a bit over the top.
Advice = Useful .............. Righteously indignant = Useless.

:yawn:

DPris
06-05-2010, 01:21
JD,
This is raising some interesting questions.
In digging out my telephone log, I find my conversation with Ned Nickerson at Remington was dated a little farther back than I recalled, on 12-14-05.
In that conversation, relative to the PMAX, he told me the company had been using a heavier carrier dog follower spring on LE 870s since 1995.
He said the LE guns were using a heavier sear spring, a heavier mag spring, and a forged extractor, none of which were the Express models getting.
The carrier dog follower spring is clearly mentioned in my notes, and specifically regarding that PMAX 870.

Ned was Field Support Services manager for Remington on that date.

Remington has made the occasional specs changes over the years, if they are not now using those heavier springs, it may be a fairly recent change.

My LE armorer's material shows what I've said it shows.

The Remington invoice that came with the police TP assembly & the Police bolt assembly two weeks ago lists those assemblies separately as police parts, which I requested from them.
The police bolt assembly has a forged extractor in it.
The police TP assembly from Brownells shortly after was also designated police. The only difference between the two is a smooth alloy finish on the one from Remington & a matte finish on the one from Brownells.
My local guy checked the Brownells TP assembly & told me it does have the heavier springs.

I'll be doing some chasing around on this Monday.

What, exactly, are the differences you're stating, then, between the TP assemblies, police & Express, aside from the polymer/alloy?

What, exactly, are the spring differences you're stating between the police & Express models?

What, exactly, are the MIM parts you're stating are in the TP assemblies on the police versions?

I need specifics so I know what to ask about.
Much of this is contradicting what I'm seeing & being told.
You may easily have more current info than I do, and if so, I need to know what IS current. :)
Denis

9mmdude
06-05-2010, 06:41
Aippi,

Please keep the facts flowing as you always have. The information you provide is refreshing and straight forward. In this "everyone gets a trophy world" we have been taught that facts and the truth are not nice. If they conflict with another thought process then the fact provider, who is correct, is attacked.

Thank you for your excellent input and knowledge.

DPris
06-05-2010, 10:51
The subject of the differences between the police & Express guns appears to be much cloudier than I originally thought, and this must be frustrating for the initial poster who raised the question.

If my info's outdated, I need to know, and I'll be happy to acknowledge it to JD.
He & I both have vested interests in accurate information.

9mm,
If you're refering to me above, I'm not attacking JD, I'm trying to get to the bottom of conflicting info here.
I'm not quoting anything from the obviously outdated Remington Police 870 website statement, but I am going by what other knowledgeable people who also deal with that gun have told me.
If I'm in error, I want to update my own knowledge on the issues.

JD is doing a useful job in trying to answer the upgrade question, and it's always beneficial to have people intimately familiar with a particular gun discuss it on this or any other forum when questions come up.

Another note in passing is that the Express itself has also undergone evolutionary changes over its lifespan.
My Scattergun Tech-ed 870 was one of the very first Express models when they came out. It was a very basic gun, with matte phosphate finish & stained hardwood furniture, bead sight.
Back then, the difference in cost between the Express & the more expensive police & Wingmaster versions was in the finish & the wood, not in the guts.
The 870 Desert Tactical Express I worked with more recently when they came out was not the same gun. Had I not already had three 870s, I most likely would have bought it when I was done, if I had I would at the very least have put the forged extractor & a stronger mag spring in it.

The issue with MIM parts is not that they don't work, or that they'll break in 200 rounds. It's that they tend to be less dense than a forged equivalent, more porous (minutely so), can't be polished on bearing surfaces to the same degree as forged parts (not an issue in the 870 extractor), and in the case of the extractor may not hold up as long before wearing.

I have not personally fired an Express anywhere near close enough to experience extractor wear myself, but I have seen gun forum mentions of what would be considered premature wear (or at least more advanced wear) compared to the expectations of a forged extractor with an equal amount of use. Once the hook begins to round off, extraction can be compromised. How soon & how often this might be occuring is impossible to tell, and for those who don't plan to shoot an Express much, or who don't mind keeping an eye on that part & replacing as indicated, it's not as much of an issue.

I'm hoping nobody's taking any of this as me saying the Express guns are junk. Far from it.


Denis

9mmdude
06-05-2010, 11:54
9mm,
If you're refering to me above, I'm not attacking JD, I'm trying to get to the bottom of conflicting info here.
I'm not quoting anything from the obviously outdated Remington Police 870 website statement, but I am going by what other knowledgeable people who also deal with that gun have told me.
If I'm in error, I want to update my own knowledge on the issues.


Aip,
Had considered doing a project with you, you seem knowledgeable & undoubtedly are, but have to say your confrontational & dogmatic style has lost interest for me. :)
Some of us are posting the best info we have, and your style in responding could be a little friendlier.

Denis

I call them as I see them. You did attack him by publicly stating that you considered doing a project with him but now had lost interest. I have followed a lot of JD's threads where his advice probably took money out of his own pocket; but saved others A LOT of money. He gives no nonsense advice that is factual.....as some would say a "straight shooter". You complained about his direct approach because you felt he was confrontational and then end your writing with a subtle cheap shot and smiley face. I felt it was hypocritical and wrong to attack someone who did nothing wrong.

DPris
06-05-2010, 11:59
I didn't.

What's our opinion of global warming? :)
We could probably find more to agree on than disagree on.
Denis

And, edited to retain context relative to your edit: My intention was to nudge JD into thinking about the possibility that an overly aggressive & condescending tone in dealing with posters & customers CAN lose him customers.
Not an attack in my mind.

No problem with providing no-nonsense advice.
No problem with a direct approach & no- I did not "complain" about a direct approach. If you got that out of what I said, you're mistaken.
There's a difference between directness & confrontational dogmatism. :)
A matter of subtlety, perhaps, but there nevertheless.


Enough on JD for now, this is all drifting & should be more about the 870. JD's doing his best, so am I. I'm waiting for Monday to do some more digging on what Remington's doing now, after which I'll be back on the results.

ArmaGlock
06-06-2010, 19:09
Yet every time this comes up, someone paste that mess on to their reply like it is some kind of gospel.

go to any gun shop and look at the box any of the new Tactical or HD's come in. The lable will state 18" barrel. Yet Remington has not made 18" barrels for a couple years and the weapon will have an 18.5" barrel on it. They have not even changed the lables on the boxes for new fire arms so having not changed the marketing mess on their web site is of no surprise.

None of this bothers me as I know the products and know this is one of the best pump shotguns made. I have 5 personal 870's ( all built on the Express) and if I wasn't old and could have another kid I would name him Remington. But for the sake of good business practices I would expect them to keep things current as a lot of buyers only know what they read on the web site and see in the marketing mess they put out.


Are you sure about the 18" barrels? Not questioning your knowledge by any means, but I bought an 870 express HD not long ago, it's the 7 shot version and I just measured the barrel and it's 18" even. I'm assuming you measure from the receiver to the end of the barrel with it assembled.

Just curious, that's all.

By the way, I appreciate your no bullcrap input on the 870 and will be getting with you soon about refinishing my express.

-Mike

aippi
06-06-2010, 19:32
It is an 18.5" barrel. Messure from the chamber not the receiver. One guy on here posted a great way to measure as he said close the bolt and drop a dowel down the breech, mark it at the end of the muzzel and then meassure that.

What you will also notice is the label on the box your 870 came in has 18" barrel on. See they grow 1/2 in shipping :-). But really, Remington has not even bothered to change the labels on the boxes.

You can also tell just by looking at the older ones with the Remington 2 shot extensions on them. If they have an 18" barrel the extension sticks out about 1/2" past the end of the barrel. The extension ends flush with the barrel on a weapon with an 18.5" barrel and I bet yours ends flush.

ArmaGlock
06-06-2010, 19:38
Got it. Thanks for the info. Yeah I've noticed that on some of the 870s with extensions.

El_Ron1
06-07-2010, 09:36
Anyone who's been involved with manufacturing understands what a dynamic environment it is. Parts and material modification due to a myriad of different reasons is the norm. It becomes very difficult to speak with certainty about the overall makeup of a particular model without precise data, current and historical knowledge, and the individual example(s) available for inspection. Keeps it interesting.

Good thread. :beer:

DPris
06-07-2010, 14:42
Minor update.
First, correction of "Ned" to Ken Nickerson, Ned translated incorrectly from my notes through what's left of my brain & into the keyboard. :)

Kirsten at Remington (Ken's out for a few days) confirms over the phone after looking up answers to my questions that the police 870s are still & currently getting the heavier sear spring, and still getting the heavier carrier dog follower spring.
Those are, besides the alloy vs polymer, the only differences between the police & Express models in the triggerplate assembly, according to her.

Police bolt assemblies get a forged extractor, Express bolt assemblies get a MIM extractor.

The "Heavy Marine Hammer" does exist as the part number I cited, she says it's the same weight as the hammer springs used in regular police & Express models, just plated for corrosion resistance. I didn't say it was heavIER, just listed the name it apparently goes under in Remington's parts list as an option. :)


Additional care is given to police versions in finishing.
Denis

Troy106
06-07-2010, 15:17
Aippi, your site is fantastic, keep up the good work

DPris
06-07-2010, 20:25
And, some further info & thoughts for consideration. Do whatever you may choose to do with the following in setting up your Express, or any other defensive 870, I'm just offering it as material to think about.

After spending time on the phone with Remington today, I drove to my local guy's shop & spent an hour going over parts issues. To avoid "some guy" comments, as I've been doing with the Remington people I'll give you a specific name. As previously mentioned, I've done business with Barlow's Custom Guns in Utah for 25 years, they've been a Remington certified LE armorer as well as a Remington authorized service center for my area for quite a while. Remington, if you're within the area, will most likely refer you to him for warrantee & other work if you call them.

There is a difference between being a certified armorer & an authorized service center, the two can go together, but to get on Remington's service center list goes a ways beyond armorer certification.

That said by way of background, we went through current Remington parts lists, compared my two Remington police triggerplate assemblies both with each other and with a polymer triggerplate assembly taken directly from a new Express model in stock.

We could find no MIM parts either listed as such in the parts lists for triggerplate assemblies (neither could Kirsten at Remington earlier today), or in any of the three TP assemblies by close visual inspection. Cast & MIM parts (there is a difference in basic process) will typically be fairly easy to determine by the presence of mould lines, certain edge characteristics, lack of machining marks, and the presence of what I'd call a "reverse-sprue" circular indentation.
We saw none of that in any part or parts of all three TP assemblies.
We concluded that the TP assemblies we inspected had no MIMs. That's not saying others don't, just those three didn't. Remington does change things around now & then. So do other makers.

We did see the different strength sear springs, with the lower weight spring in the Express assembly, and the heavier springs in both police TP assemblies. Again- these are all three NEW assemblies, my two police versions have been here for 2-3 weeks, one directly from Remington, the other from Brownells. The coils are not the same, the two are quite visibly different in appearance.

The police TP assemblies do both have the heavier carrier dog follower spring, and that part is a part used in 870s. I have a photocopy of a sheet from handout material from Remington headed "Suggested Repair Parts For 100 Shotgun M/870", the very first item at the top of the list is the carrier dog follower spring. (The "100" relates to the number of spare parts of each type Remington suggests having on hand to cover the items most likely to be needed per 100 shotguns needing repair.) It suggests five of the carrier dog follower springs.

A note on the heavy sear spring.
Something like the so-called Glock "New York" triggers, this is more of an administrative perogative than a functional one. The Glock New York trigger was developed as a response to a certain police agency's administration's request for a heavier trigger pull to reduce the potential for accidental discharges with the standard trigger pull Glocks came with.
The heavier sear spring in the 870 works toward the same goal, in not making the gun function any more reliably, but in making the trigger pull slightly heavier to help resist an accidental discharge.

Do you need that? You may not. Does it negatively affect your ability to use the 870 in a defensive role? I don't consider it to, the gun's not a precision sniping machine to begin with, and for me, at least, a difference of maybe 1 or 2 pounds in pull between the heavier spring & the lighter one would not be an issue at all with buckshot, and not much of an issue with slugs.

I can recall from the distant past a case where officers from a neighboring jurisdiction had a suspect on the ground at gunpoint. I drove by as it was occuring & saw the first part of it. As they were beginning to take him under physical control, he made a sudden movement that startled the officer with the shotgun into an equally sudden reaction that ended up firing that shotgun into the subject. The officer did not intend to fire unless necessary, and covering the subject with that gun (as other officers were doing with handguns) was justified under the circumstances.
Could a slightly heavier trigger pull have made a difference? Dunno, but I think you can see the point I'm trying to get at.
On my guns, I want the heavier sear spring. On yours, it may be a matter of total indifference, which is fine. Your choice.

As far as accellerated wear on sears from that heavier spring causing Remington to stop including it on police guns a year ago goes, anytime you increase spring weight and increase friction between two moving surfaces, wear rates on either or both can be speeded up. In our opinions that'd take quite a while and/or a goodly amount of shooting to become an issue, and since both of my new police TP assemblies have that heavy spring, and Remington says they're still using it on police guns, I'd tend to think the statement about them being dropped from police models a year ago may be in error. Or, Remington may have temporarily tried it for a few months & reverted back to using it again now.

And, finally, some thoughts on the polymer Express triggerplate assembly vs the alloy police triggerplate assembly.
I've flip-flopped on it. :)

I originally agreed with the assessment that the alloy material itself offered no advantage over the polymer, and agreed that the polymer was "better" in being more resistant to impact than the alloy.
This was based, like JD's thoughts, on Ruger's recent switch to polymer trigger housings on their 10/22 rimfires. The Ruger video does indeed show an alloy triggerguard breaking under a vertical impact where the polymer triggerguard merely flexed & returned to shape.
I know why Ruger went that route, and IN THAT GUN and FOR THEIR REASONS, I understand it & actually have no problem in going with polymer. I have the polymer unit on my most recent 10/22, in fact.

But, in discussions today it became apparent that there's more to the picture with the Express 870 polymer TP.
Barlow has seen polymer triggerplates that didn't break lower down on the triggerguard, but did break up near the top where the rear crosspin retains the TP assembly in the frame. Not many, certainly not all, and this may or may not happen with yours. But- it CAN happen, whereas it's extremely unlikely with the alloy TP.

Another issue with the polymer is that it can be more susceptible to temporary brittleness resulting from very low temperature exposure. In my 10/22, not a problem if that should ever happen. In my defensive shotgun, since I live in a state that gets down into the teens during the winter, it very well could be.
This wouldn't be an issue if you live in Florida, could be if you live in Alaska.

A third (potential, at least) issue with polymer TPs is that, while Remington did re-inforce a couple crosspin holes in it, the trigger pinhole isn't. With much use (and it'd take a while if it ever did become an issue), that pin can enlarge the hole it sits in, POTENTIALLY affecting the relationship between the trigger & the safety behind it. I said POTENTIALLY.
Please note- I'm not calling these issues design or materials flaws, I'm not saying they'll be a problem in all, most, many, or any Express 870. I am, again, NOT labeling the Express models as junk. THEY ARE NOT JUNK.
I want no misunderstanding along those lines.
Remington offers two different grades of some parts, we're discussing characteristics of those, not trashing a model line. :)

How much, how soon, and how often any of the above parts differences could or would affect YOUR Express 870 depends largely on how you use it, where you use it, and how much you use it.
I'd suspect for most relatively low-volume users the difference between the Express & the police guns won't be noticed & will never make any real difference.
High-volume use, certain weather conditions, and so on, may cause the differences to be more of a factor than otherwise.

One last item to consider if you stay with a polymer TP is that by installing a full-length stock with pistolgrip, that pistolgrip will tend to offer quite a bit of impact protection in shielding the triggerguard from impacts in dropping the shotgun or banging the guard against anything.
Just a thought. :)

If any of the above helps answer the original poster's question, or if any of it provides useful material in making decisions about setting up your 870, great.
If not, that's OK, too.

Denis

bsg1
06-07-2010, 20:50
Denis you are obviously on a search for truth and i appreciate the effort. the info on triggerplate is of interest to me; i am in southern california so you wouldn't think it would matter.... i am sure if we put your brain and JD's brain together we'd conquer the world. i'd just need a 10% share in the company!

-Brady

DPris
06-07-2010, 21:34
I don't know it all & usually (!) don't have a major problem in admitting it, but I dislike giving out bad info. It doesn't do me any good, it doesn't do a maker any good, and it doesn't do a reader any good.

This Express vs Police parts subject has some interest to people in choosing one or the other, and it's gotten kinda murky on what's what.

I don't care which one of whatever anybody ends up with, my choices are just what works for me. The rest is info to help others in deliberations. :)

Denis

Mushinto
06-09-2010, 12:44
Good thread. Tagged for updates.

... All I did was correct your post as you gave out of date information and incorrect information. Nothing confrontational there. Just a "Joe Friday" I don't do warm fuzzies, never have, never will. ...

Some people will put up with a bad attitude if the "crab" has something they want. Some won't. Either way, it's nothing to brag about.

ML

DPris
06-09-2010, 13:01
JD,
Appears you've dropped out of the discussion.
Could you at least please tell me what MIM parts you see in current police 870s?
Did we miss something in examining the three TP assemblies & the police bolt assembly?
You referenced twice that the police guns have MIMs, if a MIM part sneaked past us I'd genuinely like to know which one it was.
Denis

traumajunkie
06-13-2010, 18:48
I happened to attend the last Remington armorers class with JD. What he is saying is right on the money. He really made the class interesting with his insights.

I wish him continued success in his business and to be careful with his coffee.

Best regards,

traumajunkie

DPris
06-13-2010, 19:36
TJ,
Are you in a position to answer my questions about what MIM parts are found in the police models, then?
What MIM parts did Remington mention, what MIMs did you see?

Denis

traumajunkie
06-13-2010, 20:20
The Remington armorers class didn't mention what was made specifically out of MIM but all of the parts come out of the same bins. They give out a handout of how the MIM process works. The instructor said that MIM is just as good as machined however many police departments request a machined extractor. Check out Remington's MIM web site. http://www.remingtonpmpd.com/
The express shotguns are made in an assembly line method where everyone does a specific task. The police shotguns are assembled in an different room. They are checked by employees who probably have been working there for over 40 years. The magazine tube is also honed. Police guns have less of the sharp edges.
any questions let me know
traumajunkie

aippi
06-13-2010, 21:28
Tramajunkie - not sure who you are but if you went to the range with us, please do not tell anyone on these threads about my performance. I accused Lyle of puting Kevlar clad clays in that dang machine. I swear that is what he did.

Remember - Lyle did state that all 870 triggers are MIM including the ones in the Police trigger plate assemblies. I am not sure about the gold ones on the trap models as no body asked him about that.

DPris - There is no reason to change out the trigger as it is the only one they make. You can call and ask Remington if the Gold Trap trigger is MIM. It is part number 20611. I assume it is as it sells for $16.00 same as the other one. For some reason it has a "1" code by it which means ffl required. So if it is MIM also then it looks like you may just have to accept MIM parts in your 870. I do.
P.S. They only make 3 triggers, the other is Marine Magnum and it is a restricted park and it only cost $11 so I am guess it is MIM also.

DPris
06-13-2010, 22:21
TJ,
Thanks.
Not to diss your Remington guy who said MIMs are as good as forged, but I've heard that from other gun makers too, and gunsmiths who actually work on the things are telling me different, as far as wear & fitting go. (Including one gunsmith who works in the custom shop at one of those gunmakers.)

JD,
That's the info I've been asking for, thanks for answering the question. :)

In looking at my three 870s from various generations, and comparing what I can see of the triggers without disassembling them against what I can see of the two triggers in my new TP assemblies without disassembling them, I can see one small "nub" on the two new ones and a slightly different configuration in the notch up near the top rear. That may indicate a MIM trigger, but I can find no other obvious signs such as the reverse "sprue" or any mould lines.
If it's a MIM part, looks like a well done one, at least. I can't confirm under a magnifying glass either way without disassembly.

I was interested to see what other MIM TP assembly parts you were refering to, I would not have been happy with a MIM hammer. I will not use a MIM extractor. Those are my preferences, others may differ. So- just the trigger, you're saying?
Otherwise, we're back to the alloy vs poly issue, and the springs previously discussed, as the primary things to consider in upgrading an Express to a "police" model.

Denis

DHart
07-04-2010, 18:25
JP and Denis... thanks to you both for all that you are contributing here. Great thread. Looks like you guys have really gotten down to the nitty gritty and a good analysis. So as I understand we've got 1) spring differences, 2) TP materials differences (alloy vs. polymer), 3) Extractor material and 4) Chamber polish/internals polish differences?

As for the veracity of what a Remington employee might state in response to a question... I would take anything said by a Remington employee (or any representative of any company) with a grain (or more) of salt. Not that much of what they might report would be wrong, but I've seen enough examples of employees who were mistaken about some details of their own products to know that just because a company representative says something about their product, doesn't make it so.

I'd like to try to recap this, if I can.

SEAR SPRING
Sounds like they're the same in Express and Police models in current manufacture. And that if you're happy with the trigger pull weight, there's no reason to seek out a heavier sear spring.

CARRIER DOG FOLLOWER SPRING
The question I have is this... why the heck would Remington even bother with specifying two different springs for this part? Can anyone explain why Remington would consider the 1100 carrier latch spring more appropriate as a carrier dog follower spring for LE 870's and another spring as more appropriate for everyone else? How do the different springs affect operation?

MAGAZINE TUBE SPRING
Have we determined that there is no difference here?

TRIGGER PLATE HOUSING
Choice of alloy or polymer. With attendant differences relative to operating temperature already discussed.

EXTRACTOR
MIM in Express. Machined tool steel in Police. Choose your poison.

CHAMBER FINISHING/POLISHING
Is there a difference (as has been noted by many people in various places) in the degree to which Remington finishes/polishes the chambers in Police vs. Express models? There have been a lot of reports recently that the chambers of many Express models are given less finishing/polishing and may even be cut a bit too tight... resulting in extraction issues.

OTHER INTERNAL FINISHING/POLISHING
Is there a difference (as has been noted by many people in various places) in the degree to which Remington finishes/polishes the receiver internals in Police vs. Express models? What other "internals" might be given different degrees of attention in finishing in Police vs. Express models?

==============

For me it comes down to this... finishing of chamber and internals and quality control during manufacture is important. It's easy to buy an Express model and to swap out some springs or an extractor. But it's not so easy to have to re-do fitting, internals finishing, chamber polishing, or other quality control during assembly that wasn't what it should have been in the first place.

If indeed the police models ARE assembled by a more skilled/seasoned group of people (and this team is provided barrels which have better attention to chamber sizing and polishing) in an environment where greater attention is paid to quality control... this makes a compelling reason, still, for buying a Police model vs. an Express model... in my view.

DPris
07-04-2010, 21:55
DH,
I have another 870 project starting tomorrow on a police model, as part of which I'll be trying to get with Nickerson again for some additional details.
I'll see if I can find out anything else.

Denis

DHart
07-05-2010, 01:58
DH,
I have another 870 project starting tomorrow on a police model, as part of which I'll be trying to get with Nickerson again for some additional details.
I'll see if I can find out anything else.

Denis

Denis.... it would be great if you could find out if the Express barrels and the Police barrels are the exact same barrels to start with... and then are they finished on two separate lines? I understand there is a definite difference in the finishing/polishing of the chamber (the Express barrels getting less attention to the chamber). Clearly, the exterior of the barrels are given different finishing.

And what the reasoning is for using two different carrier dog springs? You would think that one good, well spec'd spring should be fine (and more economical from a parts standpoint) for all the guns, regardless of the user... but perhaps I'm missing something.

I guess it doesn't really matter what we learn about the barrel manufacturing... it is clear that chambers in the Express barrels are getting less polishing and attention than chambers in the Police and Wingmaster barrels. So when it comes to "converting" an Express 870 to a Police 870, in addition to spring changes, changing the furniture to solid hardwood (vs. laminated), receiver, mag tube, and barrel refinishing (to blued or parked), one will probably want to also attend to chamber dimension checking and polishing. It would seem that spending the extra for a Police model in the first place may well be the best approach.. the quickest and simplest anyway.

=========================

For anyone who is interested, I know a Remington Police Distributor who is offering the limited special-run blued/walnut 870 Police model for $459.00 plus 24.00 for UPS shipping/insurance for a total of 483.00! I sure can't see buying an Express when you can pick up one of these 870P's for such a great price.

http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp59/zmonki/Shotguns%20and%20RIfles/870_24899.jpg

I'll make it easy for you to order one:

Call Lou's # below. Ask for Linda.
Tell her that Don H. from the shotgunworld forum referred you.
Tell her you want a Remington 870P model #24899.
She'll know exactly what you want and has the inside track on getting them!

A number of months ago I really wanted to find one of these models and I
did a search for this model, contacting about a dozen Remington Law
Enforcement/Police Distributors and dealers. After repeatedly hearing
that this model is out of production and finding that no one wanted
to make any effort to find out about this model for me, I found Linda.
She took it upon herself to to go well out of her way to determine
that there was a planned limited production run upcoming in a few months
from when I contacted her. She offered me a great price and I asked her
if she would extend that pricing to my online shotgun buddies and she
agreed to. So... Linda is your person and she's a sweetheart. She's
also a Blue Star Mom with two sons currently serving us in the military,
which is a big thing to me, having lost our son, last December, in Afghanistan.

So, anyway, my 870P should be arriving next week and I'm eagerly awaiting its arrival.

Linda also has the mag extensions (often these are hard to get in blued as
well. They aren't really blued, I believe the extensions have a black oxide
finish that is somewhat less polished than the gun itself.)

linda@louspolice.com
Lou's Police Distributors, Inc
Serving the Law Enforcement Community Since 1954
Family Owned and Operated
7815 West 4th Avenue
Hialeah, Fl 33014
Tel: 305.416.0000
Fax: 305.824.9205
Website: http://www.louspolice.com

seamaster
07-20-2010, 21:28
http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp59/zmonki/Shotguns%20and%20RIfles/870_24899.jpg


I have an 1977 Wingmaster that looks exactly like that. Awesome gun!

mikey357
07-06-2011, 22:17
tagged....mikey357

aippi
07-07-2011, 14:32
Dropped out? No, just nothing else to add as once a truth is stated, it does not change.

As for loosing any business. I am not revenue driven. I turn down builds often as I don't want tactic-fool weapon out there with my name on it. I talk people down to what they need and put a true fighting weapon in their hands. Often this is as much as $400 less then the guy started out thinking he needs on his weapon. Mulitple gun shops are after me to carry my weapons in their shops and I will not as I will not become just another production line. So loosing business of some guy who thinks I am, to what ever, is of no concern. We are not going to be hanging out together or washing each others back in the shower. I am the guy to put a weapon in your hands that can save your life one day. That's it, period. I don't need your money, I have enough money to burn a wet mule.

If you read the way I start out the description of my Police Elite Model. You will undestand what honesty in business is. If you respect that, then you would do business with me. If you want the honest plain facts about these weapons without the hype, without being a victem of marking mess to get your money, then you will do business with me. If you want afirmation to incorrect concepts about the shotgun, how it is deployed and what makes up a fighting shotgun, go somewhere else. There are plenty of them out there that have employees who have the main job and are trained to get your money.

Buffering
07-07-2011, 15:27
Dropped out? No, just nothing else to add as once a truth is stated, it does not change.

As for loosing any business. I am not revenue driven. I turn down builds often as I don't want tactic-fool weapon out there with my name on it. I talk people down to what they need and put a true fighting weapon in their hands. Often this is as much as $400 less then the guy started out thinking he needs on his weapon. Mulitple gun shops are after me to carry my weapons in their shops and I will not as I will not become just another production line. So loosing business of some guy who thinks I am, to what ever, is of no concern. We are not going to be hanging out together or washing each others back in the shower. I am the guy to put a weapon in your hands that can save your life one day. That's it, period. I don't need your money, I have enough money to burn a wet mule.

If you read the way I start out the description of my Police Elite Model. You will undestand what honesty in business is. If you respect that, then you would do business with me. If you want the honest plain facts about these weapons without the hype, without being a victem of marking mess to get your money, then you will do business with me. If you want afirmation to incorrect concepts about the shotgun, how it is deployed and what makes up a fighting shotgun, go somewhere else. There are plenty of them out there that have employees who have the main job and are trained to get your money.

I appreciate that type of integrity in a business however perhaps if you have an e-minute - just to ponder what's possible - there might be an opportunity to make your items more readily available but for the right reasons.

My suggestions are worth squat since they are free although I'd like to think they are well-considered by me before I spewed.

1. Take friggin credit cards! Charge whatever the merchant fee is as an add on but these days, where plastic rules, going down to get a money order is the very last thing a consumer wants to do.

2. I wouldn't consider a shop wanting to feature your products the same as pressing the gas pedal to Hell. To the contrary, your opinions come from experience and you build your guns and make recommendations on what you know. That's priceless and as I'm sure you already know, your name, link and advice are found wherever good shotgun talk is found.

I view your products, as I'm sure most true shotguns do too, as more akin to Randall knives. There is a 5 year wait, some shops have them but even when found in a retail establishment, no one feels that it's a "second" produced for the retail side while getting it from the factory is a better knife.

Since you control the product the quality remains the same regardless of where it's sold.

DHart
07-07-2011, 16:58
aippi...do you know the answer to any of these questions?

CARRIER DOG FOLLOWER SPRING
why would Remington bother with specifying two different springs for this part? Why would Remington consider the 1100 carrier latch spring more appropriate as a carrier dog follower spring for LE 870's and another spring as more appropriate for everyone else? How do the different springs affect operation?

CHAMBER FINISHING/POLISHING
Is there a difference (as has been noted by many people in various places) in the degree to which Remington finishes/polishes the chambers in Police vs. Express models? There have been a lot of reports recently that the chambers of many Express models are given less finishing/polishing and may even be cut a bit too tight... resulting in extraction issues.

OTHER INTERNAL FINISHING/POLISHING
Is there a difference (as has been noted by many people in various places) in the degree to which Remington finishes/polishes the receiver internals in Police vs. Express models? What other "internals" might be given different degrees of attention in finishing in Police vs. Express models?

aippi
07-07-2011, 17:29
The black spring is a little heavier and should therefor provide better action of the carrier during rapid firing. But it may be more of a marketing issue so there can be differences in the weapons since both springs cost $3.20. since both cost $3.20 why not put the same one in every 870 since the black one works better. Does this fact make my argument for marketing seem more acceptable to you?

I have over 150 factory new barrels in my shop as I just did an inventory today. I see no difference in the chambers of any of them. These are Express matte finish, parkerized police and some blued Wingmaster barrels. There was an issue with extraction of cheap ammo In the Home Defense Express models but that seems to be resloved. I have not heard much about the issue in the past few months.

There is nothing to polish in the 870 reciever or trigger plate assembly. I never once heard an Instuctor mention anything about polishing anything except we were specificly told not to polish internal parts such as the sear or trigger as lock up can be affected. I never once heard anyone in the LE area talk about polishing anything nor would I even know what the heck to polish or how it would affect anything about the action of the trigger plate assembly.

Why is there an absence of Police parts on the parts list. Why is only one part offered for every model. One left shell latch, one right shell latch, one locking block, one firing pin, one trigger, one disconect and so on and so on. Where are all these Polished Police parts..............???????? Where are they?????? There is only one 870 and they differ by finish, furniture and a couple small parts.

I have explained how to down load the parts list for you guys. Do it and study that and answers will come to you. If not, then there is no hope for any understanding and you can simply accept the marketing and the mess some guy in a gun shop tells you.

DHart
07-07-2011, 18:02
Thanks, JD. Obviously both carrier springs work, but it's good to know that the black one seems to be more reliable during rapid firing.

Also good to know that the chamber polish/finish is all pretty much comparable across all 870's these days... addressing the sticky chamber issue with cheap ammo.

As you say, then, the only noteworthy difference between Express and Police is the finish quality on the steel (parkerized and high polish bluing choices on the Police models), the furniture (premium walnut and specialized stocks offered on Police models), carrier spring weight (stronger on Police models), and manufacturing method for the sear (MIM for Express and machined tool steel for Police).

aippi
07-07-2011, 18:46
You got it. And every singe 870 is as good as any pump shotgun made today. Remember the Remington 700 ADL. It was an entry level Model 700. It was the exact same rifle as the high costing CDL or BDL. Those higher priced models simply had high dollar stocks and different finishes. The ADL did not have a floor plate and it came with a synthetic stock. But it was a Model 700 and there were tens of thousands sold and are still out there taking game. I had three ADL's, one .270 30.06 and 7mm mag and need my stupid A double S kick for selling them.