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OldArcher
06-03-2010, 01:05
I'm partially disabled, and recoil is becoming a problem. It's one of the reasons that I have switched back to Glock, especially for the 3rd Generation G21SF and the G30, both with factory night sights, laser/light combos, LWD threaded barrels, ss recoil guides and springs, and a Gemtech Blackside, which reduces recoil... At night, the G30 has suppressor duty, with 13rd G21 mags, and G30 adapters, and an M6X... During the day, either G21SF or G30 ride in Blackhawk fanny packs, loaded with documentation and extra mags and CR123A batteries...

I have no problem hitting what I can see. Training and proper equipment go a long way towards giving one experience based confidence... What I need, is the best penetrating round for the 230gr, standard velocity, .45acp ammo... I have to use two hands, an isosceles stance, to be sure of placement. No longer able to move as fast, as in my youth, I know that in the event of a firefight, I'll probably be wounded, if not killed...

Therefore, I must be sure that what rounds I put on target, will penetrate, and terminate the threat... Placement/front sight, placement/front sight, placement/front sight... You get the idea...

More home invasions are occurring in my AO. These are being attempted, and more successfully than not, by multiple perpetrators... Weapons are being brandished, and shots fired, in that translates into greater danger- even to those who are prepared...

Currently I use Winchester's PDX1, bonded JHPs. They're the best performing JHP, outside of Corbon or Magtech SCHP loads.

My question: Which is better for penetrating barriers, windshields or car bodies? Same could be asked of interior walls within a dwelling... IF I have to defend Mom, who's 89, I'm not going to worry about over penetration- just killing the bad guys, before they can kill us...

So, what is the best "combat" ammo available for the .45acp, in standard pressure, that will penetrate to vitals, and terminate the threat? For metal on "meat," the PDX1 is my choice, but I still need to know what's best for taking out the trash/through barriers... In the event of facing such threats, time, diminished stamina and strength will be factors working against me... Speed and precision will be my only allies...

I look forward to your input. Thanks

OldArcher, out...

HeavyRevolver
06-03-2010, 02:10
Any of the bonded stuff, which you have the PDX1 already and that's about as good as it gets. Likewise the Corbon DPX seems to be a great penetrating bullet, although I prefer the heavier grain stuff.

Realistically I think the PDX1, the Gold Dot and the Federal HST are all about equal for the 230 GR offerings and are all 3 the best. The 185 GR best is easily the Corbon DPX, which seems to expand under any circumstances.

I personally load my night stand .45 with 230 Gr gold dots. The PDX1 has a bit more felt recoil and I like to get recoil down to as little as the gun will get in any gun for the purpose of accurate follow up shots.

I'm sorry you're in an area that's experiencing a lot of breaks ins.

Ray26
06-03-2010, 06:39
For self protection, FMJ 230 grain will penetrate best. I think you will be better served with a reliable 230 grain JHP.

OldArcher
06-03-2010, 08:23
Gentlemen,

Thank-you for your input.

HeavyRevolver, I'd not even considered the Gold Dot or Federal HST, because they're not readily available here. Looks like I'll have to start looking on the internet, or ask local suppliers to order them. Likewise, I'd not considered a lighter bullet... I think Cabela's has the Corbons, so I'll look for them the next time I go out. Lighter recoil is a "good thing."

Ray26, the 230gr FMJ certainly has the title for reliability of feeding and accuracy. Will it hold-up, against barriers? I really don't know. Furniture, interior walls, ect... My "goal" is to have Mom behind me. I live in a loft, and hell, I can fall down the stairs fast enough to get to her bedroom. The pups and the alarm will give me that much warning.

I do have a shotgun, and some other gear, but too unwieldy and heavy to maneuver quickly in our small place. That being the case, I'll have to use my handguns, until the LEOs get there. I've shot Expert, and was in SAS, years ago. My favorite handguns, of late, used to be Ruger Super RedHawks, .44 mag, and I used to shoot with both hands. No more...

Nowadays, I'm relegated to my military caliber guns. 9mm and .45acp. The nines, Beretta M9A1 and 92F Inox, are superb weapons. At the risk of being flamed and BBQ'd, I can't take the risk of having to double or even triple tap, because the damn guns get heavy, too quickly. I've got to take my shots with as few repetitions as possible, in the shortest possible time- all with the best accuracy that I can obtain, given my limitations. NOT the best set of conditions, is it?

The lightness of the Glocks, their inherent accuracy, high-cap magazines, and extraordinary reliability, all relieve anxieties I've had, as to having weapons that can help me overcome what I never expected to happen. I cannot afford to have weapons that I can't employ properly, or risk the possibility of weapon's system failure. To do so, courts death, in the event of a "social unpleasantness," as a friend described it...

Yesterday, I found that I have to switch from right to left hand, in order to work the slide, to chamber a round. That's a surprise, as last week, when practicing with snap caps, to work on my trigger work, I'd had no problems.

For me, only the .45acp can do the work- if I can do my part...

Anyway, Gentlemen, I appreciate your efforts. You've got me thinking, and I'll continue to do research, ask questions, and do what I can on my part, to keep Mom safe. We may well be running neck and neck to the "Last Round-up." Hell of a thing, she's 89, and I'm 60... Like Mickey Mantle said, "If I'd known I was gonna live this long, I'd a taken better care of myself..."

May you and yours always be well, safe, happy, and forever, free...

OldArcher, out...

481
06-03-2010, 08:33
In terms of gross penetration, if "most" = "best", then I agree with Ray26. If it absolutely, positively has to "get there" through light, intervening barriers, a .45 230 gr. FMJ buzzin' along at 825 fps appears to be just the "ticket". A .45 230 gr. FMJ @ 825 (+/- 25) fps will penetrate 24"-26" of calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin even after a couple of sheets of drywall. Definitely the most penetrative option.

9mm FMJs will offer even more in the way of penetration, 10%-20% depending on weight, configuration and velocity.

Since JHPs (even the latest designs) are somewhat more likely to clog on passing through drywall (leading to failure to expand) and act like an FMJ anyway, I'd think that you are best served by your present selection, the PDX1s.

ETA: I'd encourage you to have a look at Glolt20's Furniture-Bullet Penetration thread in the CC, too. Much "real world" testing against all kinds of stuff. Not real scientific, but informative nonetheless.

fredj338
06-03-2010, 13:18
I agree, bonded JHP like the GoldDot & RemGSB woul dbe first choice if I were worried about barrier pentration. For std. cup/core, the XTP by Fiocchi or Hornady is a good penetrator.

481
06-03-2010, 14:01
I agree, bonded JHP like the GoldDot & RemGSB woul dbe first choice if I were worried about barrier pentration. For std. cup/core, the XTP by Fiocchi or Hornady is a good penetrator.

Noticed that you have a preference for the XTP in your prior posts.

I've preferred to load and carry it wherever and whenever I can since its introduction (late-1991) since it has always offered spectacular accuracy every time I use it.

Bob's "Furniture Murder" thread has only served to reinforce this preference.

degoodman
06-03-2010, 15:02
I agree, bonded JHP like the GoldDot & RemGSB woul dbe first choice if I were worried about barrier pentration. For std. cup/core, the XTP by Fiocchi or Hornady is a good penetrator.

If penetration is the tailsman, the XTP wins in my book hands down. The original XTP really wasn't designed as a defensive bullet, it was originally designed as a hunting HP, than ended up having defensive application. They don't open up into the big pretty flowers that some of the more modern stuff does, but if you want a deep hole, the XTP will give it to you.

The other thing that the XTP has going for it is that its one of the easiest feeding HP's out there. Its a nicely tapered truncated cone shape, with a relatively narrow and shallow HP cavity. The XTP, followed by the Remington Golden Sabre, are two bullets that even older 1911's that generally don't feed HP's very well will feed.

CanyonMan
06-03-2010, 16:08
In terms of gross penetration, if "most" = "best", then I agree with Ray26. If it absolutely, positively has to "get there" through light, intervening barriers, a .45 230 gr. FMJ buzzin' along at 825 fps appears to be just the "ticket". A .45 230 gr. FMJ @ 825 (+/- 25) fps will penetrate 24"-26" of calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin even after a couple of sheets of drywall. Definitely the most penetrative option.

9mm FMJs will offer even more in the way of penetration, 10%-20% depending on weight, configuration and velocity.

Since JHPs (even the latest designs) are somewhat more likely to clog on passing through drywall (leading to failure to expand) and act like an FMJ anyway, I'd think that you are best served by your present selection, the PDX1s.

ETA: I'd encourage you to have a look at Glolt20's Furniture-Bullet Penetration thread in the CC, too. Much "real world" testing against all kinds of stuff. Not real scientific, but informative nonetheless.




Good word. Good info here.
+1




CanyonMan

SDGlock23
06-04-2010, 10:45
I would vote Hornady XTP, Winchester PDX1, Speer Gold Dot and Remington Golden Sabre, all 230gr.

Ak.Hiker
06-05-2010, 00:42
I keep one 45 loaded with the Hornady 230 grain TAP +P and the second one is loaded with standard 230 grain ball. If you are looking for penetration 230 grain ball will do the job and will do it at standard pressure.

redarmy67
06-05-2010, 09:28
I would say the Winchester Supreme Elite Bonded. This is a hot round and performs like a +p round but is technically a normal load.

mikeyU
06-05-2010, 18:02
Fiocchi XTP, thats what I carry at the moment.