Different brand 10mm case comparisons ? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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preventec47
06-07-2010, 05:59
I've scouted around and found Starline, Hornady and Winchester cases available. Does anyone recall anyone testing the case capacity differences of these ? I found one highly negative report about the Winchester cases having a lot less capacity but the poster did not seem credible based on some of his other comments.

What about Federal Cases ?

Who are the other manufacturers of 10mm cases ?

cwb
06-07-2010, 09:23
IO have had no issues loading very hot in all different types of cases except one. I can't recall the headstamp, EMO or EVO or something of that nature. Split the whole case every single round.

preventec47
06-07-2010, 09:33
Appreciate your response but having no issues does not mean no differences. We of course want to use cases with no issues but we need to measure capacities of the various cases at the very least to see if there are consistent differences in that area.

mnhogrider
06-07-2010, 10:35
I've got a bunch of R-P nickel cases that I've been reloading. They were factory Remington UMC green box cartridges I bought when I couldn't get components a while back. I'm on my 7th or 8th go-round on them.

Comparing them to Starline cases I now have, I find no difference in capacity or reloading. I've also have some Federal cases that work great also.

mnhogrider
06-07-2010, 10:54
Appreciate your response but having no issues does not mean no differences. We of course want to use cases with no issues but we need to measure capacities of the various cases at the very least to see if there are consistent differences in that area.

Why? How much difference could there be? If that were the case, published loading data would list different loads for different brands of brass, which I've never seen in the calibers that I hand load.

My target loads for 10MM:

PD 180gr FMJ, 10 gr Blue Dot WSP primers.

Various head stamps, no inconsistencies.

What are you loading for?

srt-4_jon
06-07-2010, 12:03
topbrass also makes 10mm cases.

http://www.scharch.com/products.php?cat=56

preventec47
06-07-2010, 14:15
I called Top Brass and they said they make their own
brass on their own equipment and that their minimum
quantity was 500 when I inquired about sample quantities.
The best they could do was refer to their message board
and the one comment there was:

================================
Subject: Top/Scharch brass 10mm quality
Author: Michael ( whoever that is )
] Date Posted: 08:41:06 11/22/09 Sun
I recently purchased 1000 pieces of your "new" 10mm brass.
And it was more consistent than Starline's 10mm brass.
Your brass was easier to prime, overall length of your brass
cases was way more consistent than Starline's brass.
(I did'nt even need to trim it.)
===============================

So has anyone here use it that is very discriminating
with respect to specific case capacity etc ?

preventec47
06-07-2010, 14:22
Why? How much difference could there be? If that were the case, published loading data would list different loads for different brands of brass, which I've never seen in the calibers that I hand load.

My target loads for 10MM:
PD 180gr FMJ, 10 gr Blue Dot WSP primers.
Various head stamps, no inconsistencies.
What are you loading for?

======================================

There can be a significant difference in
Rifle cases which I have seen and I dont
see why it couldnt be the case with pistol
cases especially since I read a post about specifically an instance where Winchester
brass having more than a grain of powder
less capacity which caused him grief..
Yep, that could make a big difference if
you were riight at the edge.
If all you were doing was loading bang
bang range ammo why would you care.

Industry practice says you are wrong
about publishing different tables for
different brass. But you will definitely
see in some load tables a specification
as to which brass was used and if they
didnt think it mattered they wouldnt list it.

ctkelly
06-07-2010, 14:35
I called Top Brass and they said they make their own
brass on their own equipment and that their minimum
quantity was 500 when I inquired about sample quantities.
The best they could do was refer to their message board
and the one comment there was:

================================
Subject: Top/Scharch brass 10mm quality
Author: Michael ( whoever that is )
] Date Posted: 08:41:06 11/22/09 Sun
I recently purchased 1000 pieces of your "new" 10mm brass.
And it was more consistent than Starline's 10mm brass.
Your brass was easier to prime, overall length of your brass
cases was way more consistent than Starline's brass.
(I did'nt even need to trim it.)
===============================

So has anyone here use it that is very discriminating
with respect to specific case capacity etc ?

Top brass on average was 4-6 grains heavier than starline. Starlines variation in weight was held tighter than top brass. As far as length goes, I didnt have a problem with either companies brass.

Other than that I feel no need to go measuring case capacity difference between all the brands. Starline is top quality stuff in every caliber they produce. Double tap uses their brass (even going back to the 5 year old stuff that was loaded hot). Georgia Arms uses Starline for their defensive ammo. Mike McNett used starline for developing his hot loads listed in this forum. In other words, I doubt you are going to find a better piece of brass than starline.

preventec47
06-07-2010, 14:53
CT
I am not arguing with what you think or feel. The question
is not about quality or whether you feel the need to compare.
The fact is (based on your report) is that at least one mfg
case has to have less capacity (if external dimensions are the
same). The same could be true of other mfgrs as well.

I'm only saying that if this place be the gathering of
10mm enthusiasts, it might not be worth the trouble
or cost for any one guy to purchase Multiple 100 or 500
qty of the different brands just to evaluate case capacity
but with all of us here, why not look into it if when it
is easy to do or someone already has. If you dont know
about any differences with other mfgrs other than
Top Brass then fine. Thanks very much for reporting
about TopBrass. Sometimes the diminished capacity
could be a good thing... say in the instance of weak
link areas of failure at very top pressures. The extra
material in the case might have been optimally used
to strengthen the case to handle much more stress.
The 45 super case is a perfect example with diminished
capacity.

I am glad you like Starline and feel that is all anyone would
ever need but to say they are in any way better ( except
cheaper) than the long time icons in the business without
testing to destruction to me would lacking credibility.

I am not trying to offend you, I am just trying to satisfy
a question in objective and complete terms. If no one has
answers then we all make do with our best assumptions
or make greater efforts to find the answers.

cwb
06-07-2010, 16:26
Appreciate your response but having no issues does not mean no differences. We of course want to use cases with no issues but we need to measure capacities of the various cases at the very least to see if there are consistent differences in that area.
True, but no issues does indicate no differences worth noting.

ctkelly
06-07-2010, 17:02
So what exactly is case capacity going to tell you? I think I would be more interested in what casing can withstand the most pressure.

preventec47
06-07-2010, 17:08
True, but no issues does indicate no differences worth noting.

I'm the first to agree that if having or not having an extra grain
of powder is not important than case capacity is not important.

Seems improbable for you though since you measure the
performance of your loads.

Since ,If I am not mistaken, you are using some
TopBrass cases, maybe you could load another one
or two case brands exactly to see what the difference
in performance would be.
Could be nothing, could be a lot depending on the
load parameters.

preventec47
06-07-2010, 17:27
So what exactly is case capacity going to tell you? I think I would be more interested in what casing can withstand the most pressure.

--------------
Certainly the ability to withstand hi pressures is top of the list
but greater capacity reduces peak pressures while sometimes
still enabling greater velocities by increasing the area under
the pressure curve. How is that possible?

Think about a load of 40SW ( as a very low capacity 10mm)
at say 39,000 psi and a load of 10mm at 35,000 psi.
The 40 case while supporting a much higher pressure
would have significantly less velocity when both are
shooting the same bullet.

Conversely, if you are at the very ragged edge
with a full volume case and you try that same load
in a case with a half grain less capacity, the pressure
could spike and cause a ka-boom

I dont care to split hairs with you or anybody but
we are here to maximize the efficiency if not ultimate
performace of our pistols are we not?. Otherwise we
could always shoot the factory stuff. That is all I
am saying.

If all the little things dont matter then when you
add them all up, then nothing matters. If hat is
the case then why bother at all ?

Honestly I am new to the pistol loading thing.
All my experience with internal ballistics is with
magnum rifle load development. I assume the same
principles apply but maybe not with the same degree
of significance. What the heck, this is a forum and
these are my thoughts.

ctkelly
06-07-2010, 20:40
Well good luck with your testing. In the end I think you'll end up using the same brass that everyone else has used to push to the max....and it has nothing to do with being the cheapest either.

As you have stated, if the case dimensions are the same a weights are different there has to be a capacity difference...however, where that capacity increase comes from will have a direct affect on how much pressure the case can withstand...if its a thin mouth/neck, it will likely split...if its in the web, it will in the worse case rupture.

The most direct comparison I can give is with 45 ACP brass..using winchester nickel brass (which is an issue in itself) I split the mouths within a single or two reloading.....vs using WCC 98 Match brass which is heavy and has less capacity I have yet to split the mouth on one and have several reloadings on some pieces. I can achieve the same performance levels with both casings, but the match can actually survive several hot loadings vs the nickel that self destructs after two firings.

I completely understand what you are saying about running on the edge and switching a component...but that is true of anything even if its the same component but different lot number. Primers from lot to lot vary...Powder does too....anytime you switch any of these you should recheck your loads and back off and rework until you are certain its safe. This is why I started purchasing 8lb jugs of powder!

Once again good luck.

ctkelly
06-08-2010, 11:33
Just gained access to a couple other brands of brass....gun club member gave me some once fired stuff he picked up at the range.

R-P nickel was very consistent in weight, 71.5-71.8 in the five pieces I checked.

Hornaday, Winchester, and starline were all in the 72-73 range.

Top Brass is the only one I've found so far that was substantially different than others as far as weight goes....its also a pain in the butt to seat bullets into...starline brass the bullet glides in without a lot of effort, top brass requires more effort even with the case mouth belled.

I will load a few up of both starline and top brass and shoot them across the chronograph to see if there is any difference in speed.

preventec47
06-08-2010, 15:10
FYI- doing a search through the archives here, back
in 2005 Tom posted a message with the weights
and StdDev of several brands of 10mm cases.

AVG weight of brass by Tom of Glock Talk 2005
AVG ST DEV

RP 69.8 1.0
RP Ni 68.9 0.5
Federal 70.0 4.7
WW 70.4 1.3
Hornady 71.4 0.8
Norma 72.4 0.7
PMC 73.9 0.6

not weighed:
TopBrass
StarLine


personal commentary-
Since I dont understand the failure modes
of the various 10mm pistols, It may well
be that the strength of cases is a non issue
if they are not the weak link when ka-booms
happen. They may not even show signs of
hi pressure .... I just dont know. But if it
should be the situation that something else
fails before the cases rupture, like primers
flattening or piercing, etc. then we need
to place more focus on any capacity differences
because the higher capacity cases would
generate lower pressures all other things
being equal. Lower pressures equaling
greater safety in my mind..

Taterhead
06-08-2010, 22:25
Top brass on average was 4-6 grains heavier than starline. Starlines variation in weight was held tighter than top brass. As far as length goes, I didnt have a problem with either companies brass.

Other than that I feel no need to go measuring case capacity difference between all the brands. Starline is top quality stuff in every caliber they produce. Double tap uses their brass (even going back to the 5 year old stuff that was loaded hot). Georgia Arms uses Starline for their defensive ammo. Mike McNett used starline for developing his hot loads listed in this forum. In other words, I doubt you are going to find a better piece of brass than starline.

Yep. And Buffalo Bore too.

Starline is good stuff. Clean and easy to work with. Someone mentioned the UMC R-P nickle brass. That is the best that I've encountered from factory loaded ammunition (besides the Starline brass loaded by our favorite botique manufacturers). I have stuff that has been though MANY reloads. Winchester shrinks too short after just a few reloads. American Eagle (Federal) is so-so.