Lessons learned from Bernie Goetz [Archive] - Glock Talk

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DonCT
06-10-2010, 19:10
Hi all. I posted this in the GATE Self defense forum, but I am reposting here for general discussion. I consider the Bernie Goetz shooting the single most well-known self-defense shooting ever. Fascinating that it is also poorly understood, even 26 years later. We (and Bernie himself) simply don't know exactly what happened but what we do know is interesting in and of itself.

For those of you unfamiliar with the case, the recap is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernhard_Goetz.

Many think this case turned the tide in favor of legal carry. My analysis:
In my view, he did several things right: He had good situational awareness, he formed a plan and carried it out, he kept his cool and he won despite 4-1 odds and virtually no training or experience.

He did plenty wrong too: He fled the scene, spoke to cops without a lawyer and made numerous conflicting and inflammatory statements.

Also, despite being acquitted of criminal charges re: deadly force, he had a decade-long civil suit battle.

Fascinating also that 26 years later we (and Bernie himself) have no clear story of exactly the sequence of shots, but that a comment he may or may not have made. "Here's another" came back to haunt him based on testimony from one witness 11 years later.

Also note that, though they never explicitly threatened him, the four would-be mugger exhibited classic predatory behavior, i.e. they cut off a single sheep from the herd.

Your thoughts?

seanmac45
06-10-2010, 19:55
1. Bernie was and is an EDP flake and should not be held up as an example of a good CCW citizen.

2. Between the time of the shooting and his arrest, robberies in the NYC transit system (which averaged 26 a day at that time) dropped to zero.

3. If he hadn't surrendered he would have never been caught. If he had just shut up he would never have been collared. That's straight from a friend who worked the case.

Deaf Smith
06-10-2010, 20:32
If he was that afraid of for his life, why didn't he move to another state with far more liberal gun laws? After all, he was not poor.

And that is a lesson to learn from it.

If in a bad place, and you can afford to move... move.

Sadly, many can't move cause they don't have alot of money, and that' the same ones that can't afford expensive guns and expensive CCW licenses.

Deaf

steveksux
06-10-2010, 20:35
1. Bernie was and is an EDP flake

Even EDP flakes have the right to self defense, what part of "Shall not be infringed" is unclear? :tongueout:

Someone had to say it... :supergrin::wavey:

I remember the case, but the details have faded over time... I did NOT remember the part about him turning himself in...

Why DID he turn himself in? Did he think he was some sort of hero? What was his motivation? Was it the thought that they would go easier on him if he surrendered? Especially figuring he was a "victim" in the case, there woudn't be a jury likely to convict?

Have to admit, it is kind of reassuring that someone like him was able to fend off 4 thugs, without a lot of sense, training, or skill.. That doesn't mean I'd like the idea of a whole bunch of EDPs carrying weapons.... I think that shall issue will undoubtedly result in some cases of that though. We've had a few cases of road rage with legally carried pistols that I can recall off the top of my head around here, and its really unavoidable unless the screening process includes qualified psychics.

Randy

seanmac45
06-10-2010, 21:26
Steve;

He surrendered because he knew the squad had come knocking on his door looking for him.

Seems he called a female friend while on the lam and poured his heart out to her which she of course dutifully taped.

Had he not opened his mouth and then surrendered it is a strong possibility he would never have been apprehended. But then again that goes for most mutts who wind up getting collared.

MTPD
06-11-2010, 05:40
Bernie's on the scene comment is exactly why my advice has always been to not say anything when confronted by BG's. Why not say anything? Because whatever you say can and will be used against you (then and later). And no matter what you say, IT WILL BE MISCONSTRUED.

I realize this isn't the advice most self-defense trainers give. Many in fact teach their students to yell certain things at attackers. So YMMV!

DonCT
06-11-2010, 06:32
3. If he hadn't surrendered he would have never been caught.

He surrendered because he knew the squad had come knocking on his door looking for him.

These two comments seem in direct conflict. The police were apparently looking for him and had come to his apartment. They clearly knew who he was and it was a matter of time before he was caught. He wasn't going to disappear into the woods or go off the grid. He was going to get caught.

To me, he also proved that mindset is the most important factor. Having the latest and best equipment is nice, but a 5-shot .38 got it done against 4 muggers because the shooter knew what he had to do and did it.

seanmac45
06-11-2010, 11:48
Poorly worded; explained better in my post above.

Had he not yapped to his female friend there would have been no detectives knocking on his door.

If he had kept his mouth SHUT and not surrendered he would have stood an excellent chance of not being apprehended.

hagar
06-11-2010, 13:37
The last S in SSS is for shut-up...:whistling:

PEC-Memphis
06-11-2010, 13:39
I don't know Mr. Goetz - but I know several people who knew him long before, and long after, this incident. He used to perform calibration and certification of electrical laboratory equipment in several of the labs I do business with in the NE US.

If he is/was an EDP, and I'm not saying one way or the other, there is a rational reason for him to be in this condition. He had previously been robbed - and had previously been seriously assaulted requiring hospitalization. His attacker didn't serve any time - and actually spent less time at the police station than Mr. Goetz.

After the incident, Mr. Goetz actually stopped to check to see if a couple of people in the train people were Ok. Then, I'm sure, panic set in. He was carrying a firearm in NYC, he had just shot four criminals*. His life had just been turned up-side-down - a natural reaction is to flee.

Of course, Mr. Goetz didn't do himself any favors by his comments before and during the criminal/civil trials, by indicating that he had done society a favor by shooting these criminals.

*All four had criminal records - and at least two have committed violent crimes since this incident. Between the four who confronted Mr. Goetz, there were three (3) weapons (screwdrivers were commonly used in NYC as weapons). Cabney - who had committed at least one armed robbery in before this incident - was awarded $43 million dollars for picking the wrong guy to rob.

DonCT
06-11-2010, 21:07
Cabney - who had committed at least one armed robbery in before this incident - was awarded $43 million dollars for picking the wrong guy to rob.

Cabey, I believe, was the most seriously injured mugger, permanently paralyzed. Also, according to the Wiki article in the OP, Goetz declared bankruptcy, citing a mountain of legal bills. He also said he has never paid a dime on the lawsuit, so sometimes the good guys win.

Just to further stoke the convo, here is Mas Ayoob's comments from my original GATE post:

It's worth a book -- and it has been the subject of books -- and can't be adequately dissected in this small space. I wish Goetz himself would write a book on it. Only he can answer some of the key questions.

I personally thought the jury was correct in acquitting him on the aggravated assault charges, and might well have acquitted him on the illegal gun possession charge as well if they had been given a good legal reason to do so, such as a Doctrine of Necessity defense. However, from what I've read of the case (I was not personally involved), there is no indication that the defense team got this option in to the jury in Goetz's criminal trial.

As to the "You don't look too bad, here's another (shot)" issue, I agree with you that it is one of the most fascinating elements of the case. Particularly since when you analyze it, it couldn't have happened. Each of his four attackers sustained only a single gunshot wound. One shot went wild into the upper part of the subway car. That accounts for all five shots in the cylinder of his Smith & Wesson .38 Chief Special. There could not have BEEN a gratuitous second shot into an already wounded member of the four-man mugging team.

Thanks for a thought-provoking post (which might flourish in one of the regular sections at GT such as Tactics & Training, hint-hint).

Best,
Mas

Discuss...

HollowHead
06-13-2010, 01:24
The best lesson to be learned from the Goetz incident is to never, ever say, "You don't look so bad, here's another!" to an assailant (Caby) you've just shot...just before shooting him again. HH

PaulMason
06-13-2010, 05:49
Bernie is a very white guy. At the time - 1984 - the city was bottoming out of its financial problems but was still a mess. The IRT line was/is a particularly ugly line and I think it was coming into Manhattan from Brooklyn - very rough at the time. So it was a frightening time to be on the Subway. If, he was a minority; the shooting wouldn't have made the news. If, he was a woman, she would have been hailed as brave.

That he was mugged previously and other citizens were fed up with the crime in city probably kept him out of jail.

The statements he made really hurt him. Without them, more people would have been on his side.

http://newcentrist.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/goetz-cover.jpg


Many think this case turned the tide in favor of legal carry.

I don't think the above statement is true. I lived in NYC at the time and there was no such talk or movement from it.

. My analysis:
In my view, he did several things right: He had good situational awareness,


The above is wrong. Any New Yorker would have kept walking to another car (at that time a person could walk between cars - I don't know the situation now) or sat as far away from them as possible (the 4 were at the end of the car), after seeing the scene below.

"At the 14th Street station, Goetz entered the car through the rearmost door, crossed the aisle and took a seat on the long bench across from the door. Canty was across the aisle from him, lying on the long bench just to the right of the door. Allen was seated to Canty's left, on the short seat on the other side of the door. Ramseur and Cabey were seated across from the door and to Goetz's right, on the short seat by the conductor's cab."<sup id="cite_ref-Lesly_7-1" class="reference"></sup>


Also, the situation could have gone very wrong if at a different time more passengers were on the train and an innocent one was shot.

The best thing to learn from Bernie, is to keep your mouth shut and get a lawyer ASAP.

TACC GLOCK
06-13-2010, 06:07
Great Thread

PEC-Memphis
06-14-2010, 11:12
The best lesson to be learned from the Goetz incident is to never, ever say, "You don't look so bad, here's another!" to an assailant (Caby) you've just shot...just before shooting him again. HH

Did you see the Ayoob comment? (below)

(I’ve actually been in an incident where people just made up events in the incident – enough people repeated them and they became the “truth”. After each was questioned, their story fell apart at the seams – it was obvious that they conspired together to make their much embellished perjured stories match.)

Ayoob – “As to the "You don't look too bad, here's another (shot)" issue, I agree with you that it is one of the most fascinating elements of the case. Particularly since when you analyze it, it couldn't have happened. Each of his four attackers sustained only a single gunshot wound. One shot went wild into the upper part of the subway car. That accounts for all five shots in the cylinder of his Smith & Wesson .38 Chief Special. There could not have BEEN a gratuitous second shot into an already wounded member of the four-man mugging team.”



The best thing to learn from Bernie, is to keep your mouth shut and get a lawyer ASAP.

Nail on the head.

Cabey, I believe, was the most seriously injured mugger, permanently paralyzed. Also, according to the Wiki article in the OP, Goetz declared bankruptcy, citing a mountain of legal bills. He also said he has never paid a dime on the lawsuit, so sometimes the good guys win.

I wouldn’t say that Mr. Goetz won – he just didn’t loose more.

Deaf Smith
06-14-2010, 17:14
I wouldn’t say that Mr. Goetz won – he just didn’t loose more.

And could have lost alot less..... either by remaining silent or getting better lawyers to push the Doctrine of Necessity defense. He did neither.

Deaf

Mamaluke
06-16-2010, 22:44
1. Bernie was and is an EDP flake and should not be held up as an example of a good CCW citizen.

2. Between the time of the shooting and his arrest, robberies in the NYC transit system (which averaged 26 a day at that time) dropped to zero.

3. If he hadn't surrendered he would have never been caught. If he had just shut up he would never have been collared. That's straight from a friend who worked the case.

What's an EDP flake?

English
06-17-2010, 07:34
What's an EDP flake?

Any fool know it an electronic digital processor on a flake of silicon. Or is it an Eastern Distict Prosecutor, or an every day patsy. Now I've got myself confused! I am sure it is one of those. Actually the american obsession with initials is a real pain.

English

GameGlocks
06-17-2010, 08:37
Any fool know it an electronic digital processor on a flake of silicon. Or is it an Eastern Distict Prosecutor, or an every day patsy. Now I've got myself confused! I am sure it is one of those. Actually the american obsession with initials is a real pain.

English


I think the person meant an emotionaly distirbured person. I think. lol

PEC-Memphis
06-17-2010, 09:08
I think the person meant an emotionally disturbed person. I think. lol

That's different than a eastern district prosecutor?

jeffreybehr
06-26-2010, 16:13
...and we still don't know what 'EDP' means. It's not in http://www.netlingo.com/acronyms.php either.

PEC-Memphis
07-01-2010, 16:45
...and we still don't know what 'EDP' means. It's not in http://www.netlingo.com/acronyms.php either.

Sure we do...emotionally disturbed person

I think it is NYPD lingo.

beatcop
07-01-2010, 17:56
Bernie's on the scene comment is exactly why my advice has always been to not say anything when confronted by BG's. Why not say anything? Because whatever you say can and will be used against you (then and later). And no matter what you say, IT WILL BE MISCONSTRUED.

I realize this isn't the advice most self-defense trainers give. Many in fact teach their students to yell certain things at attackers. So YMMV!

"Stop or I'll Shoot" ? This shouldn't be an issue and also gives the audience something to hear in your favor..

I believe Mas may have advocated "Stop....Police" in an old book. Better to be mistaken for a cop & left alone, or not get shot by another CC. You say, "I was telling the bad guy to stop & calling for the police".

Not giving a verbal warning may be appropriate in some scenarios; most LE policies say one shall be given "...when feasible". That's my advice...too easy to accidently shoot an undercover holding someone at gunpoint. If you have never seen some vice guys, you would NEVER believe they were LE.

Like I said, "situation dependant", best not to apply absolutes to variable scenarios.

TBO
07-02-2010, 09:51
Bernie's on the scene comment is exactly why my advice has always been to not say anything when confronted by BG's. Why not say anything? Because whatever you say can and will be used against you (then and later). And no matter what you say, IT WILL BE MISCONSTRUED.

I realize this isn't the advice most self-defense trainers give. Many in fact teach their students to yell certain things at attackers. So YMMV!
Much like most everything you post.

English
07-02-2010, 11:52
Much like most everything you post.

We need more of this charitable spirit on Glock Talk. Kudos to you for sympathising with MTPD for the way in which others misconstrue his posts so often and kudos to him for putting up with it so well.

English

bamarammin87
07-02-2010, 13:40
Much like most everything you post.

:cool:

tnstaafl
07-04-2010, 08:26
"Cabney - who had committed at least one armed robbery in before this incident - was awarded $43 million dollars for picking the wrong guy to rob." - THIS scumbag getting $43 million is the real crime - getting shot was getting what he deserved - but the take away here is yet another advertisement for practice, practice, practice - and better shot placement.