Capacity vs. Concealability and your Mag-40 class [Archive] - Glock Talk

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tnedator
06-15-2010, 22:54
Hey Mas,

I had never noticed this forum. It's great, thanks for participating. I have read your stuff over the years, and see you doing a spot on one of the shooting shows (drawing a blank on the name). A couple weeks ago I saw a spot you did on situational awareness. From being aware of being hit by a car door opening, to someone hiding in a doorway or alleyway, to being thrown off a bridge. It made me think about my surroundings in a whole new way.

Anyway, to the questions.

First, I have a handful of guns, with my PM9 and G19 being the most concealable. As I rarely can wear an outer garment and typically wear a tucked shirt, I usually carry my PM9, as I find it less likely to print then my G19. I have been searching for a higher capacity gun, that splits the difference in width between the two, but so far haven't had any success.

Am I fretting over nothing? Do you think the 7+1 of the PM9 is adequate, or should I go with the less concealable G19 or other higher capacity gun? I actually shoot the PM9 more accurately than the G19 (i really like the smooth, constant pull of the Kahr trigger), but it of course has half the capacity.

Second, your course. I have been thinking about taking some courses at Rangemasters in Memphis, and a few weeks ago I saw you were going to be there fore four days. I assumed it was four individual course, but looking at it, it appears it is four, intense days (MAG-40). My question is what level of training/proficiency should I have before attending this course to get the most out of the live fire portion of it? Is there anything I should do (in terms of practice) to prepare for it? Finally, would you recommend the PM9 or G19 for the course, or should it be based on which gun I am most likely to carry (this would be my assumption).

Oh, one last question. A month or so, I saw you demonstrating a plastic tube on a key chain. I can't remember what you called that, as I was trying to tell a friend about it.

Mas Ayoob
06-16-2010, 21:58
Hey, glad you like the show. (Personal Defense TV, on the Sportsman Channel.) The device you saw me demonstrate was the Kubotan keychain. Training manuals and videos, and the similar Persuader "mini-baton," are available through Police Bookshelf at 1.800.624.9049. If you Google "Tak Kubota" (the master martial artist who created the device and the techniques that accompany it), the search engine should bring you to a Kubota website where you can order the training materials and the original Kubotan if you prefer. The techniques will also work with a Mini-Mag flashlight.

It's good to have choices, and the PM9 and G26 are both good ones. I'd be inclined to carry the G26 when comfort and dress code allowed, and the PM9 on those muggy summer Tennessee days when it feels as if you just can't wear enough clothing to conceal both.

(And in Memphis, I'd carry both.:supergrin:)

If you have basic safety and handling down, you're good to go for a MAG-40. Hope to see you in Memphis.

best,
Mas

Mas Ayoob
06-16-2010, 22:00
Hey, glad you like the show. (Personal Defense TV, on the Sportsman Channel.) The device you saw me demonstrate was the Kubotan keychain. Training manuals and videos, and the similar Persuader "mini-baton," are available through Police Bookshelf at 1.800.624.9049. If you Google "Tak Kubota" (the master martial artist who created the device and the techniques that accompany it), the search engine should bring you to a Kubota website where you can order the training materials and the original Kubotan if you prefer. The techniques will also work with a Mini-Mag flashlight.

It's good to have choices, and the PM9 and G26 are both good ones. I'd be inclined to carry the G26 when comfort and dress code allowed, and the PM9 on those muggy summer Tennessee days when it feels as if you just can't wear enough clothing to conceal the slightly thicker gun.

(And in Memphis, I'd carry both.:supergrin:)

If you have basic safety and handling down, you're good to go for a MAG-40. Hope to see you in Memphis.

best,
Mas

tnedator
06-18-2010, 14:14
Hey, thanks for the answers. I hope a brief followup is ok.

I live in Arkansas, but I kind of feel like I need to handguns and a long rifle when I go to Memphis!!

After doing a bunch of research, and realizing I'm not going to get a higher capacity DAO anywhere near as thin as my PM9, I've settled on an S&W M&P Compact as my best compromise.

So, my followup question is the age old caliber vs. capacity. I read the ammo article of yours posted in the other forum, and that as you say, most department new issues are calibers that start with "4". In that thread, or one of the ones in this GATE forum, you make the point that the 'right' 9mm ammo can do the job, but with 40's and 45's there is more margin for error, especially if you don't get any/max expansion.

So, do you think the M&P 40c with 11 rounds is a better option than the M&P 9c with 13? I tend to lean towards the two fewer rounds in the 40c, and then possibly carrying a 15 round mag with an x-grip (or two of them) as my spare mag.

P.S. My buddy and I are signed up for the Memphis course through Rangemasters, and are looking forward to the course.

Mas Ayoob
06-18-2010, 18:16
OMG, bro, you have just hit on a question that has sucked up MAJOR bandwidth here at GT, on Caliber Corner.

My take: You don't need me to tell you that 11 versus 13 is a less significant difference than the 7 versus 11 of your last question.

Controllability will have a lot to do with it. If possible, hook up with friends who who own them or get to a rental range, and shoot both. If the 9mm is distinctly faster and/or more accurate for you, the 9 is the one.

Potency? It's going to depend largely on what you load with. If the choice was subsonic -- 147 grain 9mm versus 180 grain .40, both with the same type of bullet (i.e., Gold Dot for Gold Dot, etc.) -- the .40 would be my hands down choice. If the choice was 1250 foot-second 127 grain +P+ Winchester 9mm or 124 grain +P Gold Dot 9mm versus subsonic 180 grain .40, though, I'd go with the 9.

Ammo COST will favor the 9mm. Ammo AVAILABILITY favored the .40 in the latest (current) ammo shortage.

When in doubt, get one of each!

Looking forward to seeing you at the class,

Mas

tnedator
07-01-2010, 20:18
Ok, like in the White House press room, I have a followup question (ok, two).

I decided to go with the M&P 40c, since I have a G17 to perform a similar role in 9mm. I am toying with the idea of sending it to the S&W performance center for their action job. The reviews I have read say that the trigger is much smoother and less gritty after their work.

My question is about trigger pull. In terms of prosecutor or plaintiff's attorney trying to claim accidental discharge/manslaughter (as you talk about in your books and here), because the trigger was too lite, do you think the 5lb trigger pull after the S&W action job is too light?

From the factory, it's supposed to be about 6.5, and lowered to around 5 after the performance center does their thing and changes the sear. While I know a lot of smiths are recommended for trigger jobs, I thought from a legal defense standpoint, that having it done at S&W might be safer and more defensible (assuming the 5lb trigger pull is acceptable).

Also, I have a crimson trace on the M&P, but no night or fiber optic sights. Do you recommend both a laser and night sights? What about fiber optics? Or, should I just stick with the stock factory M&P sights?

Mas Ayoob
07-01-2010, 20:57
tnedator, my S&W M&P Pro from the Performance Center -- basically, the same trigger pull you're talking about -- measures right at 5.5 lb pull, same as is advertised on a stock Glock trigger. It is smoother and less "mushy" than a factory M&P trigger. Since Glock set the standard for 5.5 lb triggers in striker-fired, polymer frame SERVICE pistols, I'm not worried about it. I used that pistol as my carry gun out west last May, teaching courses/hangin' with cops down on the Border in Arizona/and filming the fifth season of Personal Defense TV on Sportsman Channel. (Used that gun in several of the next season's segments, in fact.) I wouldn't have done so if I thought it was a liability.

That said, though, I wouldn't go LIGHTER than that, for reasons that have been discussed exhaustively here on Glock Talk over the years. (Do a search, if you have a couple of hours...:upeyes:).

I recently won an M&P in a PPC match (357C, manual safety) and like it just fine with the pull it came with, which I haven't measured yet but feels about in the 6.5-7 lb. range. FWIW, most of the Glocks that I carry have NY-1 trigger and standard 5.5 lb connector, total pull weight in the 7.5-8.0 lb range, and I won't carry a Glock with a pull weight lighter than the "standard" 5.5 lb.

best,
Mas