MacPherson Model Analysis of Ammunition Tests in water [Archive] - Glock Talk

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481
06-17-2010, 17:30
................

481
06-17-2010, 17:52
............

Glolt20-91
06-17-2010, 19:57
Nice tests, surprised by #2 results.

What other barriers are you planning on testing?

I'd be wearing a sweatshirt at 78F.

Bob :cowboy:

481
06-17-2010, 20:21
............

CanyonMan
06-17-2010, 23:37
481,

Cool test results. Like Bob I am taken back a tad at test 2. You and I talked about that today on the phone a bit, but still.... wow !

Looking forward to the next test you run. If I ever get over this situation I got going on and can get the time to get some testing and photo's done myself, I will jump in. For now, "as you both know," I got to tend to other matters et. You guys are a real blessing and adding real life Intelligence to this forum. ;)


I think much good will come out of CC if folks that "want to learn," will study on these test results, and embrace the truth about the findings.

Any way. Thanks for the info and the post, and we will see what happens next. ! ;)

Good post amigo.


Talk with y'all later

Thanks!
have agreat Fathers day, .... Every one !



CanyonMan

481
06-18-2010, 12:55
...................

Glolt20-91
06-18-2010, 13:14
Thanks, CM.

There are no guarantees when it comes to ammunition tests, even with "premium" SD ammo (some of which I will eventually get around to evaluating) and I always find it interesting when something 'unexpected' happens.

The experimental process is like that. That quality (unanticipated results) is what leads to discoveries and changes our perceptions sometimes for the better, othertimes for the worse.



Even premium bullets fail as we've seen, another bullet was added to that list this morning.

Bob :cowboy:

481
06-18-2010, 13:27
.....

CanyonMan
06-18-2010, 14:23
Even premium bullets fail as we've seen, another bullet was added to that list this morning.

Bob :cowboy:


This is so correct. I drive a Ford F-150 ranch truck. BUT, I have seen Mercedes and other "premiunm" rides broke down on the side of the road.

Just a little sage observation there. ;)


Great test Bob, saw them this morning. Like 481, I too thought I heard a loud thump coming from west of me. Chronny still intact? haha.

Looking good boys, and I am really learning some interesting things here from ya both. Looks like we're all getting some surprises eh?



Later




CanyonMan

Jeepnik
06-18-2010, 15:24
Very useful information, well at least for the next time I'm attacked by a box of water.:supergrin:

481
06-18-2010, 16:02
......

Glolt20-91
06-18-2010, 16:19
Huh. You run another test today? I thought I heard a dull "thud" earlier this morning. :supergrin:

OK, so who broke your heart this time? :dunno:

Yeah, that was Desert Dawg leaping at those exploded water bags as they fell from orbit; we all got drenched every time. :tongueout:

Bob :supergrin:

Glolt20-91
06-18-2010, 16:22
Very useful information, well at least for the next time I'm attacked by a box of water.:supergrin:

A bag of water falling from the sky is bad enough, but a whole box??? :rofl:

Bob :cowboy:

CanyonMan
06-18-2010, 17:20
A bag of water falling from the sky is bad enough, but a whole box??? :rofl:

Bob :cowboy:


Just look at it as summer fun in the desert man ! More fun than going to town to some infested public pool ! Ha ha. I bet Desert Dawg is having a time !! :supergrin:



CM

481
06-22-2010, 13:24
............

CanyonMan
06-22-2010, 14:31
I'd be torn to shreds by CM and Glolt20-91 (not really) if I were to fail to post a test of the 9mm Hornady 147 gr. XTP JHP before the end of page one of this thread.

So, here it is...



http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y301/CharlesSchwartz/100_2312.jpg



http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y301/CharlesSchwartz/100_2313.jpg




Date: 22June2010

Ammunition: Hornady 9mm 147 gr. XTP JHP (90282)<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Test Platform: Glock 17<o:p></o:p>
Barrel Length: 4.49 inches<o:p></o:p>
Caliber: 9x19<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Barrier: 4 layers of 1 ounce cotton T-shirt fabric<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Test Fixture: Fackler Box<o:p></o:p>
Test Media: Water<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Muzzle Velocity: 1003 fps
Impact Velocity: 998 fps
Instrumental Distance: 15 feet from impact face <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Test Distance: 21 feet
Temperature: 85° F


Recovered Projectile Data:<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Average Expanded Diameter: 0.493 inch<o:p></o:p>
Retained Weight: 146.0 grains (99.32%)<o:p></o:p>
Shape Aspect: skewed, asymmetric, oblate ellipsoid expansion face with moderate pitting<o:p></o:p>
Total Length: 0.541 inch<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
MacPherson Penetration Model Analysis:<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Cavitation Boundary (Vc) = 432.237 fps
<o:p></o:p>
Permanent Wound Cavity Mass (Mw) = 39.281 gm. (1.386 oz.)<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Penetration Depth (Xcm) = 44.097 cm. (17.361 in)



With controlled expansion to ~1.40x caliber, an Mw of nearly 40 grams and penetration (Xin) in excess of 17 inches, the XTP design once again proves itself a deep penetrator that is capable of admirable soft tissue destruction which is why it remains my preferred CCW/SD/HD ammunition.


:puking:



Love 'em (the 147grXTP's) and my WWB 147 gr'ers as well. Don't care what anyone says these always come through in all our test thus far. 'Yours and Bob's' now, and mine here a while back on the place. :thumbsup:

Good stuff amigo !
Good report and good results.

Keep it up ! Hopefully I can get cranked back up in the fall.





CM

:puking:

Glolt20-91
06-22-2010, 14:58
I'd be torn to shreds by CM and Glolt20-91 (not really) if I were to fail to post a test of the 9mm Hornady 147 gr. XTP JHP before the end of page one of this thread.

So, here it is...



http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y301/CharlesSchwartz/100_2312.jpg



http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y301/CharlesSchwartz/100_2313.jpg




Date: 22June2010

Ammunition: Hornady 9mm 147 gr. XTP JHP (90282)<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Test Platform: Glock 17<o:p></o:p>
Barrel Length: 4.49 inches<o:p></o:p>
Caliber: 9x19<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Barrier: 4 layers of 1 ounce cotton T-shirt fabric<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Test Fixture: Fackler Box<o:p></o:p>
Test Media: Water<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Muzzle Velocity: 1003 fps
Impact Velocity: 998 fps
Instrumental Distance: 15 feet from impact face <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Test Distance: 21 feet
Temperature: 85° F


Recovered Projectile Data:<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Average Expanded Diameter: 0.493 inch<o:p></o:p>
Retained Weight: 146.0 grains (99.32%)<o:p></o:p>
Shape Aspect: skewed, asymmetric, oblate ellipsoid expansion face with moderate pitting<o:p></o:p>
Total Length: 0.541 inch<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
MacPherson Penetration Model Analysis:<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Cavitation Boundary (Vc) = 432.237 fps
<o:p></o:p>
Permanent Wound Cavity Mass (Mw) = 39.281 gm. (1.386 oz.)<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Penetration Depth (Xcm) = 44.097 cm. (17.361 in)



With controlled expansion to ~1.40x caliber, an Mw of nearly 40 grams and penetration (Xin) in excess of 17 inches, the XTP design once again proves itself a deep penetrator that is capable of admirable soft tissue destruction which is why it remains my preferred CCW/SD/HD ammunition.


:puking:

Wondered why I was seeing clouds to the east.

17" of penetration is a lot, adds performance confidence if we have to go up against those 3XL/4XL felons.

What was your water penetration distance and how many bags blew up?

Bob :cowboy:

481
06-22-2010, 16:23
......

481
06-22-2010, 16:31
Love 'em (the 147grXTP's) and my WWB 147 gr'ers as well. Don't care what anyone says these always come through in all our test thus far. 'Yours and Bob's' now, and mine here a while back on the place. :thumbsup:

Good stuff amigo !
Good report and good results.

Keep it up ! Hopefully I can get cranked back up in the fall.


CM

:puking:


CM,

Glad you liked the test.

I just couldn't let page one end without this one being done and I am always happy to test one of our "favorites". :winkie:

There are other designs out there that are deserving of our "attentions".

I'll try not to disappoint.

Hope you get back to the 'correct environment' "sooner" as opposed to "later" so that you can have 'fun' again, too.


:puking:

Glolt20-91
06-22-2010, 19:17
Bob,

Water penetration was a tiny fraction of an inch past 31 inches; "five bags" were deflated as they sit length-wise in the fixture.

MacPherson's recommendation for penetration, 14" is a good minimum to be sure and more (within reason, of course) is always welcome given the size of some of our local miscreants. For my purposes, 18" is the upper end of what I look for in penetration, although I can see where 20"-22" might be necessary given the proper conditions. (a very large thug wearing a lot of cold weather outdoor apparel)


Found this the other day-

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=56486


I think that Doc Roberts is "spot on" with this article and his perspective on the issue.

Much 'adieu' is made concerning over-penetration even though its risks can be mitigated significantly through assuring a clear sector of fire/down range.

Inadequate penetration is a more pressing concern. Failure to reach (deep enough into) the vitals can and will get one killed.

I've enjoyed reading Doc's informative posts when he's on GT.

The .357mag/158gr SJHPs we carried certainly gave excellent penetration with substantial exit 'splatter'. We trained using sights and/or focusing on POI. Shooting environment determines where one positions themself, i.e. left/right, kneeling etc.

Given shooting dynamics, there may even be times/scenarios in which a shot/s cannot be taken against a felon, regardless of what ammo is carried. As Doc wrote, first shot accuracy (and I add, while moving) is paramount.

Like you, I prefer 14" to 18" of penetration that also yields large crush cavities..

Nice reference, :thumbsup:

Bob :cowboy:

cowboy1964
06-22-2010, 20:25
Overpenetration is not a good thing. For one thing it means that a lot of energy is not being transferred to the bad guy. It also most likely means a smaller cavity if expansion is not being achieved. People point out that most shots by police miss their target. That just means it will go through more objects (primarily walls) on the way to hurting innocents.

If penetration was the end-all-be-all then most police would still be using FMJ. Obviously that's not the case.

481
06-22-2010, 20:59
Overpenetration is not a good thing.

C1964-

Never said it was. It is, however, not the end of the world either and it can be mitigated with decent training and the employment of sound tactical practices.


For one thing it means that a lot of energy is not being transferred to the bad guy. It also most likely means a smaller cavity if expansion is not being achieved. People point out that most shots by police miss their target. That just means it will go through more objects (primarily walls) on the way to hurting innocents.

If expansion is not being achieved (arguably with a JHP) that means that the JHP's cavity has filled and become plugged with the intervening barrier material (as they quite often do) that it just passed through and has just "become" an FMJ. Expect it to behave so: lots of penetration.


If penetration was the end-all-be-all then most police would still be using FMJ. Obviously that's not the case.

Never said it was and I certainly don't believe it (penetration) to be the "end-all-be-all" terminal ballistic mechanism.

To the contrary, I believe that it is foolhardy to favor one terminal ballistic mechanism to the exclusion of all else and I seek designs that offer both moderate expansion (~1.5x caliber) while providing moderate to deep penetration (14-18 inches) even after intervening barriers.


I hope that this clarifies any misgivings that I may have imparted in my earlier posts above.


:)

481
06-22-2010, 21:03
I've enjoyed reading Doc's informative posts when he's on GT.

The .357mag/158gr SJHPs we carried certainly gave excellent penetration with substantial exit 'splatter'. We trained using sights and/or focusing on POI. Shooting environment determines where one positions themself, i.e. left/right, kneeling etc.

Given shooting dynamics, there may even be times/scenarios in which a shot/s cannot be taken against a felon, regardless of what ammo is carried. As Doc wrote, first shot accuracy (and I add, while moving) is paramount.

Like you, I prefer 14" to 18" of penetration that also yields large crush cavities..

Nice reference, :thumbsup:

Bob :cowboy:

Thanks, Bob.

You know, we are gonna have to stop agreeing on everything like this or we are gonna run outta things to say. :animlol:

What are we gonna talk about then?!?!?! :dunno:Huh?!?!

vafish
06-23-2010, 07:15
This test result was kind of surprising considering that the first test (above in post #1) produced such a "photogenic" result-






Jacket separation is much more common when using water as a test medium then in other test media.

I think it is because the water is just much more fluid then ballistic gel and gets between the jacket and core easier.

I wouldn't consider a bullet a complete failure just because the jacket separated when testing expansion in water.

If I really wanted to carry that load I would do some more testing in other media to see if the jacket separations continued.

481
06-23-2010, 09:13
Jacket separation is much more common when using water as a test medium then in other test media.

I think it is because the water is just much more fluid then ballistic gel and gets between the jacket and core easier.

I wouldn't consider a bullet a complete failure just because the jacket separated when testing expansion in water.

If I really wanted to carry that load I would do some more testing in other media to see if the jacket separations continued.

V-

Your grasp of what occurred is readily apparent.

Water as a test medium and the hydraulic forces associated with its use impinging between jacket and core are the cause of this phenomena.

Your opinions match mine exactly, which is why two years ago I paid to have this load tested against the FBI test protocols in calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin. It performed extremely well, no failures of any sort and as a result it now has a permanent place in my CCW/SD/HD sidearms.

These tests (while not particularly scientific) are simply meant to inform and the reader is welcome to take whatever they wish from the results even if that opinion is that they are worthless to them.

My hope is that you, at the very least, enjoyed them.


:)

vafish
06-24-2010, 05:57
V-

Your grasp of what occurred is readily apparent.

Water as a test medium and the hydraulic forces associated with its use impinging between jacket and core are the cause of this phenomena.

Your opinions match mine exactly, which is why two years ago I paid to have this load tested against the FBI test protocols in calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin. It performed extremely well, no failures of any sort and as a result it now has a permanent place in my CCW/SD/HD sidearms.

These tests (while not particularly scientific) are simply meant to inform and the reader is welcome to take whatever they wish from the results even if that opinion is that they are worthless to them.

My hope is that you, at the very least, enjoyed them.


:)

If you knew that then why do you call the results surprising and label the bullet as a failure when it is a result of the test medium you are using?

If you are wanting to inform and entertain other readers you should give them all the information.

And I do enjoy reading these tests and looking at the pictures. Like the guy at the Box-O-Truths says, Shooting stuff is fun!

481
06-24-2010, 07:49
If you knew that then why do you call the results surprising and label the bullet as a failure when it is a result of the test medium you are using?

Because I expected similar results after seeing what this bullet did in its first test session. You'll note that I employed the term "failure" in quotes in my prior comments as I was quite surprised at the results. I know what the bullet did and why it did so. It was a reference to the bullet's failure to maintain structural integrity itself, not an opinion of the test results.

If you are wanting to inform and entertain other readers you should give them all the information.

I have given them (and you) all the information that I have gathered. It is presented quite clearly following each of the test pictures. The results that I obtained are presented here and above in their entireity. You are seeing what I am seeing and all that I have. No more data than what I have gathered exists.

Snapper2
06-26-2010, 16:29
I'd be torn to shreds by CM and Glolt20-91 (not really) if I were to fail to post a test of the 9mm Hornady 147 gr. XTP JHP before the end of page one of this thread.

So, here it is...



http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y301/CharlesSchwartz/100_2312.jpg



http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y301/CharlesSchwartz/100_2313.jpg




Date: 22June2010

Ammunition: Hornady 9mm 147 gr. XTP JHP (90282)<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Test Platform: Glock 17<o:p></o:p>
Barrel Length: 4.49 inches<o:p></o:p>
Caliber: 9x19<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Barrier: 4 layers of 1 ounce cotton T-shirt fabric<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Test Fixture: Fackler Box<o:p></o:p>
Test Media: Water<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Muzzle Velocity: 1003 fps
Impact Velocity: 998 fps
Instrumental Distance: 15 feet from impact face <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Test Distance: 21 feet
Temperature: 85° F


Recovered Projectile Data:<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Average Expanded Diameter: 0.493 inch<o:p></o:p>
Retained Weight: 146.0 grains (99.32%)<o:p></o:p>
Shape Aspect: skewed, asymmetric, oblate ellipsoid expansion face with moderate pitting<o:p></o:p>
Total Length: 0.541 inch<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
MacPherson Penetration Model Analysis:<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Cavitation Boundary (Vc) = 432.237 fps
<o:p></o:p>
Permanent Wound Cavity Mass (Mw) = 39.281 gm. (1.386 oz.)<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Penetration Depth (Xcm) = 44.097 cm. (17.361 in)



With controlled expansion to ~1.40x caliber, an Mw of nearly 40 grams and penetration (Xin) in excess of 17 inches, the XTP design once again proves itself a deep penetrator that is capable of admirable soft tissue destruction which is why it remains my preferred CCW/SD/HD ammunition.


:puking:

I did a test today with 147gr xtp through blue jeans into 2 soaked grainger catalogs.At the max load(1095fps) with power pistol they penetrated roughly 10". Pedals peeled the length of the bullet but no seperation.:cool: Expansion was .550. Bullet length measured .446. Still waiting on the vv3n38.

481
06-26-2010, 16:52
I did a test today with 147gr xtp through blue jeans into 2 soaked grainger catalogs.At the max load(1095fps) with power pistol they penetrated roughly 10". Pedals peeled the length of the bullet but no seperation.:cool: Expansion was .550. Bullet length measured .446. Still waiting on the vv3n38.

Snapper-

Very nice!

How many layers of denim did you shoot through and what was the retained weight of the bullet? (if you have a powder scale, that is)

I've never messed around with 'wetpack', but from what you've provided above, it looks like typical performance from an XTP. Can't say for sure what the 'wetpack-to-gelatin' conversion ratio would be (seen a few estimates) so I wouldn't feel like I could offer an opinion with very much confidence as to its validity.

In any event, I am pleased to see that others enjoy this sort of stuff ("scientific" or not) and am grateful for your contribution and pictures.

Thanks!

:)

Snapper2
06-26-2010, 17:23
Snapper-

Very nice!

How many layers of denim did you shoot through and what was the retained weight of the bullet? (if you have a powder scale, that is)

I've never messed around with 'wetpack', but from what you've provided above, it looks like typical performance from an XTP. Can't say for sure what the 'wetpack-to-gelatin' conversion ratio would be (seen a few estimates) so I wouldn't feel like I could offer an opinion with very much confidence as to its validity.

In any event, I am pleased to see that others enjoy this sort of stuff ("scientific" or not) and am grateful for your contribution and pictures.

Thanks!

:)

I shot through only 1 patch I cut out of my blue jeans. The bullet on the left with the pedals peeled down weighs 123.5 grs. which made me lift a pedal to make sure it was a boat tailed 147gr and not a 124gr:embarassed: and the one on the right is 134.3 gr. and was not shot through denim. Penetration and expansion were pretty much the same. Bullet length was with in .040. These catalogs I soaked did have thicker pages than regular phone books.

481
06-26-2010, 17:55
I shot through only 1 patch I cut out of my blue jeans. The bullet on the left with the pedals peeled down weighs 123.5 grs. which made me lift a pedal to make sure it was a boat tailed 147gr and not a 124gr:embarassed: and the one on the right is 134.3 gr. and was not shot through denim. Penetration and expansion were pretty much the same. Bullet length was with in .040. These catalogs I soaked did have thicker pages than regular phone books.


Snapper,

Looks like both were pretty consistent performers despite the difference (one layer of denim) in the way that they were tested.

I'd imagine that you'd need to increase the number of layers of denim before you'll see any appreciable differences.

Regardless of what results one obtains, I cannot imagine a more enjoyable way to spend a nice summer day. :cool:

CanyonMan
06-26-2010, 18:03
Good test Snapper. I am still a big 147gr XTP fan, and believe this bullet is a very good choice for both penetration and some expansion as well. I am just an old set in way dude, but so far the 147gr XTP (home rolled) and the 147gr WWB JHP (for me) are what goes in the 9mm. ;)


Thanks snapper.



CanyonMan

glocksterr
06-26-2010, 18:13
the XTP in any flavor for the most part will 'git'er'done.

Snapper2
06-26-2010, 18:26
Good test Snapper. I am still a big 147gr XTP fan, and believe this bullet is a very good choice for both penetration and some expansion as well. I am just an old set in way dude, but so far the 147gr XTP (home rolled) and the 147gr WWB JHP (for me) are what goes in the 9mm. ;)


Thanks snapper.



CanyonMan

Thanks CM, I'm still deciding between the Gold dots and XTPs in 147gr.So my mag is half and half. LOL. I've been leaning towards Gold dots because they are bonded but I cant seem to get the 147gr XTP to shed a jacket and its making the decision harder. Plus the hornady bullet seems to penetrate further in the wetpacks.:cool: The only advantage the gold dot might have is expansion through the first few layers of the wetpack when driven hard, which limits penetration. I havent tried WWB 147gr yet but I do have some 147gr Silver tips from Midway on their way. Along with some vv3n38.:cool: Take care.

481
06-26-2010, 18:52
...but I cant seem to get the 147gr XTP to shed a jacket and its making the decision harder. Plus the hornady bullet seems to penetrate further in the wetpacks. :cool:

Sure does.

I have yet to see an XTP of any caliber fail structurally either. Tough bullets.

Their excellent accuracy is "icing on the cake".

The Gold Dots are really tough bullets, too. I can see why you are having a hard time choosing. Guess it comes down to trading off increased penetration with an 'unbonded' bullet (the XTP) for more expansion with a 'bonded' design. (the Gold Dot) :dunno:

Glolt20-91
06-26-2010, 21:57
Thanks CM, I'm still deciding between the Gold dots and XTPs in 147gr.So my mag is half and half. LOL. I've been leaning towards Gold dots because they are bonded but I cant seem to get the 147gr XTP to shed a jacket and its making the decision harder. Plus the hornady bullet seems to penetrate further in the wetpacks.:cool: The only advantage the gold dot might have is expansion through the first few layers of the wetpack when driven hard, which limits penetration. I havent tried WWB 147gr yet but I do have some 147gr Silver tips from Midway on their way. Along with some vv3n38.:cool: Take care.

Cool tests, nice to kick back and eat popcorn while reading and looking at pics. :cool:

I take it you took advantage of Midway's sale on 147gr bullets rather than ammo?

Bob :cowboy:

Glolt20-91
06-26-2010, 22:36
Sure does.

I have yet to see an XTP of any caliber fail structurally either. Tough bullets.

Their excellent accuracy is "icing on the cake".

The Gold Dots are really tough bullets, too. I can see why you are having a hard time choosing. Guess it comes down to trading off increased penetration with an 'unbonded' bullet (the XTP) for more expansion with a 'bonded' design. (the Gold Dot) :dunno:

XTPs can be iffy penetrating steel, I've seen quite a few bullet jackets on the ground when testing fenders, hoods, car doors et al.

Using creosote brush as a barrier, 10mm/200gr XTP ~ low 1200s had a propensity to shed their jackets.

Like CM, .44mag/hardcast (he's a big fan of the .45 Colt hardcast) is the ticket in many Southwest settings. One minute you can be in very thick brush, then after a couple of steps and you're clear for 600 yards. I've seen 10mm/180gr hardcast keyhole through thick brush, just the nature of the beast in these parts. Double carry .44mag/.45Colt can be a necessity given depending on the kind of sign observed.

One of the reasons I do extreme testing is, sooner or later an extreme situation will happen if you spend enough time in the wild, wide open spaces of the desert (Chihuahuan) Southwest.

Wanna dance???

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/Back%20country/004_0A.jpg

A mountain lion and her cub shadowed this antelope herd;

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/Back%20country/Skinsnsnow016.jpg

Fortunately, the 9mm/147gr XTP (and its fast split times) will take care of most 4 legged vermin that are in the open.

While I have a lot of confidence in the expanding performance of shallow cavity Gold Dots, not sure I'd trust deep cavity GDs to defeat heavy outer clothing, including leather or animal hide/fur; but that's me.

Bob :cowboy:

Snapper2
06-26-2010, 22:40
I take it you took advantage of Midway's sale on 147gr bullets rather than ammo?

Bob :cowboy:

Yes, thanks for the heads up on the silvertips($22/100) Bob. I plan on using the vv3n38 to load these and XTPs.

Glolt20-91
06-26-2010, 23:14
Yes, thanks for the heads up on the silvertips($22/100) Bob. I plan on using the vv3n38 to load these and XTPs.

Good deal, here's my load data: 6.6grs/3N38 (Vihtavuori load window spread 6.3grs to 6.9grs), Winchester brass 2x, Fed 100, Winchester 147gr JHP notched, 4200ft, 66F, 5 shot strings, G17;

1164fps/442fpe, ES 09fps, SD 03fps

Same set-up using CCI 500 primers;

1148fps/430fpe, ES 06fps, SD 02fps

(I also chronographed 147gr XTPs and Golden Sabers, same powder weight as above, but different MVs)

That same day I chronographed some 124gr XTPs, HS-7, CCI 500;

1317fps/478fpe, ES 24fps, SD 08fps

Enjoy, :supergrin:

Bob :cowboy:

CanyonMan
06-27-2010, 05:58
Good deal, here's my load data: 6.6grs/3N38 (Vihtavuori load window spread 6.3grs to 6.9grs), Winchester brass 2x, Fed 100, Winchester 147gr JHP notched, 4200ft, 66F, 5 shot strings, G17;

1164fps/442fpe, ES 09fps, SD 03fps

Same set-up using CCI 500 primers;

1148fps/430fpe, ES 06fps, SD 02fps

(I also chronographed 147gr XTPs and Golden Sabers, same powder weight as above, but different MVs)

That same day I chronographed some 124gr XTPs, HS-7, CCI 500;

1317fps/478fpe, ES 24fps, SD 08fps

Enjoy, :supergrin:

Bob :cowboy:



Thanks for the load data Bob, I needed that one myself.

I do carry on the place the 44mag almost as much as the 45LC. They both get to see action every week. ( your right I do favor my 45LC). It is one of those 'grab one in the tack room and the rest of the gear' and out the door things. ha.

Sometimes if I know I'm going to a section where I may have take a longer shots on something (or want to play) I'll take the 44mag and 250/275/300gr Hard Cast, again 'depending on what I know about where I am going'. Some days the 45LC.

Really either one out here will do all and more than I need it to. In the higher country and around the switch backs and through trails and such, it is (most always) the 45LC. Man I just can't think of a thing either one can't handle with the big honkin Hard Cast bullets in them. Before any one says anything, I always do have a lever rifle in the saddle scabbard as well. 35Remington, or 45-70. What kind of bullets you reckon their loaded with... haha. ;)


I agree with what you said earlier as well about the GD's. Although a great bullet, i won't use it over an XTP when it comes to fur and fat and bones, or as you said (concerning two legs) againt heavy clothing and then all that's under it. IMO the XTP still gets the penetration prize between the two.



Cool Pics. I'm tempted to share some back.


Stay cool. Literally !




CM

481
06-27-2010, 11:37
XTPs can be iffy penetrating steel, I've seen quite a few bullet jackets on the ground when testing fenders, hoods, car doors et al.

Using creosote brush as a barrier, 10mm/200gr XTP ~ low 1200s had a propensity to shed their jackets.

Like CM, .44mag/hardcast (he's a big fan of the .45 Colt hardcast) is the ticket in many Southwest settings. One minute you can be in very thick brush, then after a couple of steps and you're clear for 600 yards. I've seen 10mm/180gr hardcast keyhole through thick brush, just the nature of the beast in these parts. Double carry .44mag/.45Colt can be a necessity given depending on the kind of sign observed.

One of the reasons I do extreme testing is, sooner or later an extreme situation will happen if you spend enough time in the wild, wide open spaces of the desert (Chihuahuan) Southwest.

Wanna dance???

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/Back%20country/004_0A.jpg

A mountain lion and her cub shadowed this antelope herd;

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/Back%20country/Skinsnsnow016.jpg

Fortunately, the 9mm/147gr XTP (and its fast split times) will take care of most 4 legged vermin that are in the open.

While I have a lot of confidence in the expanding performance of shallow cavity Gold Dots, not sure I'd trust deep cavity GDs to defeat heavy outer clothing, including leather or animal hide/fur; but that's me.

Bob :cowboy:

Nice to know that about the XTPs and hard/tough barriers. Not much creosote here, but lots of "sheet steel". :whistling:

Had the 147 gr. XTP tested once against the FBI test protocols. It retained its jacket in the automotive door test, expansion was 'moderate' and penetration was quite deep.

I 'spect that the 9mm 147 gr. XTP loaded warmish might be fine against the cats out thattaway, but I'd rather have a good .44 or .45 (such as a Ruger Super BlackHawk fr'instance) with a heavy (300 gr.) hard cast SWC at max. velocity.

481
06-27-2010, 11:41
Wanna dance???

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/Back%20country/004_0A.jpg



Nope.



:)

Snapper2
06-27-2010, 12:07
Good deal, here's my load data: 6.6grs/3N38 (Vihtavuori load window spread 6.3grs to 6.9grs), Winchester brass 2x, Fed 100, Winchester 147gr JHP notched, 4200ft, 66F, 5 shot strings, G17;

1164fps/442fpe, ES 09fps, SD 03fps

Same set-up using CCI 500 primers;

1148fps/430fpe, ES 06fps, SD 02fps

(I also chronographed 147gr XTPs and Golden Sabers, same powder weight as above, but different MVs)

That same day I chronographed some 124gr XTPs, HS-7, CCI 500;

1317fps/478fpe, ES 24fps, SD 08fps

Enjoy, :supergrin:

Bob :cowboy:

Thanks for the data Bob. Out of the 3(xtp,gd,gs) in 9mm, the 147gr gs is the only one I've had to separate a jacket and it was a factory round.Xtps seem to have the best accuracy according to 481's data. It should be interesting running silvertips through the gauntlet. Regarding function through barriers us "city slickers":rofl: have to be aware of car jackings which might require one to shoot through a window or door.Either that or a close encounter at a "stop n rob" store. A barnes tac-xp bullet(dpx) is suppose to do well on either occasion. I've been testing those too. At max barnes load data using longshot, expansion is maximum at around .700 with no high pressure signs and light recoil. But penetration is way behind the 147gr bullets in the wet pack. Bumped up a notch the 115gr barnes bullet almost catches up at the expense of an expansion reduced to .590 in this solid copper bullet. Looking foward to more of your test results.:cool:

Snapper2
06-27-2010, 12:19
Nice to know that about the XTPs and hard/tough barriers. Not much creosote here, but lots of "sheet steel". :whistling:

Had the 147 gr. XTP tested once against the FBI test protocols. It retained its jacket in the automotive door test, expansion was 'moderate' and penetration was quite deep.


Thats good to know.Glad to hear it. They do seem to hold together well in 9mm velocities. In 10mm, when loaded hot, I've had seperation in 180gr but not in the 155gr in soaked newsprint.

CanyonMan
06-27-2010, 15:06
Like Bob pointed out, diverse terrain out this way so a man needs to be prepaired. EDC in the saddle/or truck, 44mag/45LC HC bullets. I do remember a thread here a few weeks ago where some old boy wanted to know about 9mill fodder for the desert cactus s.w. area. He "would not change his caliber from 9mil, so I told him 147gr WWB JHP's or the 147gr XTP.

A couple pics here why we (out here carry what we do).
Workin in this all day long.


We go from this:

http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab256/yrag5951/GT%20stuff/IMG_0003.jpg


To This :

http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab256/yrag5951/GT%20stuff/IMG_0021.jpg


To this:

http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab256/yrag5951/GT%20stuff/IMG_08064.jpg


To this:

http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab256/yrag5951/GT%20stuff/14920tmok6a.jpg


As you can see on the ranch here:
We can encounter about anything you want in all this stuff. From a 200# cat sitting on a rock ledge above you, or in the thick brush your walking your horse through, or a rabid coyote, a bull/cow/horse/steer needin put down, black bear in the mountains and two legged illegals crossing your land, and many of them are very well armed and very desperate. As I mentioned before, rustlers still abound here on a big ranch especially, where they can find more remote entrance into your place to steal from ya. Even poachers. Drug runners as well.

Some one says "I do not live like that". I understnad. But where you 'do live' you still may need a round that is faithful through barriers one of these days. All the test run here, and on another thread as well, contain IMO very valuable information being shared and personal experience from some folks, that can be of great benift to help decide what cal/bullet/load, is right for a person to carry. 'City or country'.

No 'one test alone,' is ever enough testing. ;)


Just dropping this thought in.



CanyonMan

Glolt20-91
06-28-2010, 01:02
Nice to know that about the XTPs and hard/tough barriers. Not much creosote here, but lots of "sheet steel". :whistling:

Had the 147 gr. XTP tested once against the FBI test protocols. It retained its jacket in the automotive door test, expansion was 'moderate' and penetration was quite deep.

I 'spect that the 9mm 147 gr. XTP loaded warmish might be fine against the cats out thattaway, but I'd rather have a good .44 or .45 (such as a Ruger Super BlackHawk fr'instance) with a heavy (300 gr.) hard cast SWC at max. velocity.

I expect Canyon Man has some .45 Colt loads that would bring down Cape Buffalo.

The .45-70 is simply brutal with its terminal performance, and that's just the shooter's shoulder. :supergrin: With a decent padded buttplate, the Marlin lever action can put heavy, rather high velocity for caliber, hardcast bullets on target with very fast follow-up shots.

I've hiked in active mountain lion country (even at my place), typical carry has been Colt or Para 1911 in .38Super, 124gr XTP (low 1400s) or 125gr XTP (upper 1400s) or 6" M686 and 158gr Gold Dots.

A side note on the 124gr XTP at .357SIG velocities;

http://www.gunblast.com/RKCampbell_357Sig.htm

As an example, a few years ago I conducted a major test of the popular handgun service cartridges against vehicles. I used actual vehicles and some sheet metal, and included windshields and door glass. The single most effective loading proved to be the Hornady 124 grain XTP in .357 SIG caliber. It was not the fastest but it was among the most accurate and clearly the single cartridge with the greatest penetration.

This link has been posted in the past;

http://www.hornadyle.com/products/more_detail.php?id=128&sID=106&pID=1

The 124gr XTP/.357SIG had an impact velocity of 1319fps,

the G17/HS-7 powder/124gr XTP posted above had a 1317fps MV.

When I'm working on the place and there's a big cat nearby;

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/Ranch/Mountainlionprintoverhikingboot10-2.jpg

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/Ranch/Mountainliontrack.jpg

if I happen to be carrying the G17/124gr XTP or G20/155gr XTP, they go back to the house and it's homebrew .38Super/125gr XTP or .357mag/140gr XTP/158gr GD with a snub nose, scandium frame .44 Special/240gr/255gr hardcast in the back pocket.

What the .38Super and .357mag give me is pinpoint accuracy/velocity at distance, and in the case of the 1911/.38Super, ~<.15 second split times on a close, fast moving target. The G20 certainly has the power, but not the accuracy nor the very fast split times of the 1911.

When I see the east end of a westbound mountain lion at 50yds to 60yds, that's normal cat behavior. However, at my place, if a big cat is facing me at that distance, or probably closer, I'm taking the shot because that is not normal big cat behavior.

As an example of what a mountain lion can do, a young 350lb steer kill; 7 foot distance from the cat's back feet to where they overlapped the front foot prints, 21 foot leap, 17 foot tumble. I expect the cat hit the steer hard enough that it broke the steer's neck instantly, similar to what happens in a broadside cat/elk attack.

I hope I'm never in a bad situation to put a big cat down, they are simply a beautiful animal that I'd rather photograph. Us country folk get to use our situational awareness skills for real, and our firearms get used at critical moments. The .38Super has kept my bacon from being chewed up a few times.

Kinda long winded for an old guy.

Bob :cowboy:

481
06-28-2010, 12:14
I expect Canyon Man has some .45 Colt loads that would bring down Cape Buffalo.

Yeah, I'll bet he does. You guys and your hoglegs and those heavy handloads. Only have two myself, both are 7.5" .44 Mag SBHs in stainless. Just not enough time in the day to shoot 'em as much as I'd like.


Kinda long winded for an old guy.

Bob :cowboy:


Mightta been, but it was also a very good read with a valid perspective.

Old is simply a state of mind and you ain't.

481
06-28-2010, 12:42
........

CanyonMan
06-28-2010, 14:00
OK, I've gotta get the 9mm Hornady 147 gr. XTP JHP outta my system (at least for the time being :whistling: ), so, in celebration of the favorable McDonald v. Chicago decision today......


From the side, notice jacket shredding pattern similar to the Winchester USA 9mm 147 gr. JHP-

http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y301/CharlesSchwartz/100_2338.jpg


From the top-


http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y301/CharlesSchwartz/100_2339.jpg



Date: 28June2010<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Ammunition: Hornady 9mm 147 gr. XTP JHP (90282)<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Test Platform: Glock 17<o:p></o:p>
Barrel Length: 4.49 inches<o:p></o:p>
Caliber: 9x19<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Barrier: 4 layers of 1 ounce cotton T-shirt fabric<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Test Fixture: Fackler Box<o:p></o:p>
Test Media: Water<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Muzzle Velocity: 997 feet per second<o:p></o:p>
Impact Velocity: 992 feet per second<o:p></o:p>
Instrumental Distance: 15 feet from impact face <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Test Distance: 21 feet<o:p></o:p>
Temperature: 75° F<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>

Recovered Projectile Data:<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Average Expanded Diameter: 0.550 inch<o:p></o:p>
Retained Weight: 146.6 grains (99.73%)<o:p></o:p>
Shape Aspect: symmetric expansion face with light pitting<o:p></o:p>
Total Length: 0.568 inch<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
MacPherson Penetration Model Analysis:<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Cavitation Boundary (Vc) = 418.096 feet per second<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Permanent Wound Cavity Mass (Mw) = 39.975 grams (1.410 ounces)<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Penetration Depth (Xcm) = 36.888 cm (14.523 inches)


This test of the 9mm 147 gr. XTP shows ideal conformance with MacPherson's recommendation that an "adequate" defense ammunition selection should offer the heaviest practical bullet weight for a caliber that produces an Mw of 30-40 grams and a (preferred) penetration Xcm of 14 inches.



:cool:



Well, I am a broken record here, but again, in 'all' these test the 147gr XTP and the ever so widely hated lowly WWB 147gr JHP (so caled non-premium) ammo continues to "work." I know some don't like a so called 'non-premium round.' No nickle case, no flash supressent powder, and no fancy box or package. But I have yet to see that 147gr WWB JHP fail to get 14"+ Penetration, and 'never had one not go bang'. Bob has used the WW/147gr notched, in his test (i believe) with good results as well.

What you have shown here (again) is that the 147gr 9mm XTP still stays in the 14" penetration range as a minium, and retained almost all its weight, and opened up nicely as well... What is not to like ?

If I carry a 9mm it is with the two cartridges named in these test. I feel confident they have what it takes to get where they need to go, and at least defeat different barriers fairly well also.

Great report 481, and greatly appreciated. ;)




Yes Bob, I do have 45LC loads that will kill skin and quarter a cape buff ! :rofl:

Where are you any way? Let me hear from ya amigo.


Thanks again 481. Great job/report !



CanyonMan

Glolt20-91
06-28-2010, 15:21
Those are some really nice pics of the 147gr XTP, it performed very well.

Big :supergrin: on the Supreme Court ruling this morning. :thumbsup:

Running bullet specific 147gr XTP exterior ballistic data with a 997MV, this bullet slows down to 974fps at 25 yards and 952fps at 50 yards.

So, . . . if one wanted the penetration/expansion numbers posted above, say at 50 yards, the target muzzle velocity would be 1045fps based upon the 147gr XTP exterior ballistics.

Certainly gives us country folk something to ponder at the reloading bench when targeting muzzle velocities.

Good work 481, I'm going to load down my original mid 1100s goal to mid/upper 1000s in both .38Super/9mm for comparison to your tests.

A 1075fps MV should be well w/i the 147gr XTP's performance design, and it will still retain ~969fps at 100 yards; well w/i the first shot accuracy potential of the Colt 1911/.38Super.

Time to unscrew the 9mm reloading dies and set-up the .38Super dies.

Bob :cowboy:

481
06-28-2010, 16:28
Those are some really nice pics of the 147gr XTP, it performed very well.

Big :supergrin: on the Supreme Court ruling this morning. http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/images/smilies/thumbs%20up.gif

Running bullet specific 147gr XTP exterior ballistic data with a 997MV, this bullet slows down to 974fps at 25 yards and 952fps at 50 yards.

So, . . . if one wanted the penetration/expansion numbers posted above, say at 50 yards, the target muzzle velocity would be 1045fps based upon the 147gr XTP exterior ballistics.

Certainly gives us country folk something to ponder at the reloading bench when targeting muzzle velocities.

Good work 481, I'm going to load down my original mid 1100s goal to mid/upper 1000s in both .38Super/9mm for comparison to your tests.

A 1075fps MV should be well w/i the 147gr XTP's performance design, and it will still retain ~969fps at 100 yards; well w/i the first shot accuracy potential of the Colt 1911/.38Super.

Time to unscrew the 9mm reloading dies and set-up the .38Super dies.

Bob :cowboy:

Thanks, Bob.

Your analysis of the numbers appears reasonable. Should yield some good information. If I ever get back to the reloading bench, I'd like to down-load the 147 gr. XTP to get 100 yard velocity levels (~900 fps) and see how they perform. I'd expect diminished expansion and correspondingly greater penetration.

Well, I am a broken record here...

CM,

Feeling the same way here. Time to move on to other designs so as to avoid that problem.

Glad you liked the test. Always happy to supply another 'fix' to a fellow 'junkie'. :supergrin:

How's that book comin' along?

:)

CanyonMan
06-28-2010, 17:44
Thanks, Bob.

Your analysis of the numbers appears reasonable. Should yield some good information. If I ever get back to the reloading bench, I'd like to down-load the 147 gr. XTP to get 100 yard velocity levels (~900 fps) and see how they perform. I'd expect diminished expansion and correspondingly greater penetration.



CM,

Feeling the same way here. Time to move on to other designs so as to avoid that problem.

Glad you liked the test. Always happy to supply another 'fix' to a fellow 'junkie'. :supergrin:

How's that book comin' along?





Well, I did not mean 'feeling like a broken record here.." in a bad way, or I'm ready to move one et. haha, I meant that I am out of good words to say about the performance of the 147gr'ers being tested. They are working great. ;)

For you 481, and Bob as well. Remember back some months when you (481) and I really got into the WWB 147's ? Well I was also playing on the ranch with the 147gr XTP's at that time as well, posted a few targets and load data et... Any way, I loaded those 147gr XTP boat tails to 1015 and 1025fps, and they were not only accurate as all heck even at long range (out of the G19), put were water jugging I think the top end (i'd have to go look at my records) was 16/17" pen. They held together and did deform a bit. Sorry I have no pics. Ya just got my memory and word. The former ain't workin real good but the latter is in perfect shape ! ;)

Seems to me at least that the XTP's in the 9mil in this weight are at their best in this type veloscity range. Now I never pushed them any further than 1025fps except once or twice at much higher vels. I did not get the chance to really check out those higher vels due to some 'personal things' I had to take care of if y'all recall. But I do remember very clearly, they performed (for me) very well at the vels I just posted here. ( 1015/1025) A tad more, say 1050/1075fps may also find a 'sweeter spot.' :dunno: Again, y'all know why i did not get the chance to do any further testing for a while. I would like to have stopped at 1050/1075.

I do believe that Bob/481, when y'all load the XTP 147gr between 1025, (and I'll stick my neck out here) and 1050'ish, you will see better performance than those we've all pushed at much faster vels a time or two.

My in put this evening to you both, and I'm "Very humbly" thinking I'm on it here. Try those vel parameters and see. I do 'know', that at my 1015/1025 (the latter was better) those bullets performed very well in my real quick little test.

It seems the faster that 147xtp is pushed the less he likes it, no matter Hornady's min/max vel figures. Again, I may be full of beans, I been before (once) :supergrin: But seriously, I really believe the better performance 'all around' for the 147gr XTP (i know 'for me' was 1015/1025) I'm thinking that between the 997fps (481 got) and past my test maybe to no more than 1050'ish.

Well, I'm on the block now. haha. So we will see. :whistling:


Looking forward to seeing what you two come up with.

CanyonMan

Glolt20-91
06-28-2010, 23:36
This will be interesting to set-up, I may try some of Ramshot's Silhouette powder to achieve mid-1000s; need to use it up.

What do you make of Hornady's .357SIG/147gr XTP?

http://www.hornadyle.com/products/more_detail.php?id=128&sID=106&pID=2

Bare Gelatin
Bullet: 147 gr. TAP CQ®
B.C.: .212 S.D.: .167
Muzzle Velocity: 1199 fps
Firearm: Sig P229
Total Penetration: 20.5"
Max. Cavity: 4.5"
Depth to Max. Cav.: 4.5"
Entry: .5"
Retained Weight: 136 gr

Maybe 481 can run the weight/penetration numbers and solve for expansion. 4.5" is a large crush cavity/crack diameter.

AA #7 and N105 powders should replicate those velocity numbers in .38Super.

Anyone want to replicate this 5.56/75gr BTHP velocity? :supergrin:

http://www.hornadyle.com/products/more_detail.php?id=72&sID=75&pID=2

Bare Gelatin:
Bullet: 75 gr. BTHP T2 TAP®
B.C.: .355 S.D.: .214
Muzzle Velocity: 2660 fps
Barrel: 16"
Twist Rate: 1 in 7"
Total Penetration: 13.25"
Max. Cavity: 6"
Depth to Max. Cav.: 4.5"
Entry: .5"
Retained Weight: 34 gr.


Bob :cowboy:

481
06-29-2010, 07:57
This will be interesting to set-up, I may try some of Ramshot's Silhouette powder to achieve mid-1000s; need to use it up.

What do you make of Hornady's .357SIG/147gr XTP?

Maybe 481 can run the weight/penetration numbers and solve for expansion.


Bob :cowboy:

Bob,

Expansion for the .357 SIG load above would work out to be in the 0.500" - 0.510" (about 1.4x caliber) range depending upon how one evaluates certain aspects of the factors effecting drag and expansion rate. Looks like a promising load.

Since I don't have the capacity (platform) to test the 147s into the 1,100+ fps realm comfortably, I look forward to your Silhouette results.

CanyonMan
06-29-2010, 08:24
What do you make of Hornady's .357SIG/147gr XTP?

http://www.hornadyle.com/products/more_detail.php?id=128&sID=106&pID=2 Bob :cowboy:


Well I never been a fan of the 357sig, but looking at this with 147gr bullet and the impressive penetration and defeating barriers, I may drop a 357sig barrel in my G27/ or G17 when I can, and try 'em out. Thing that sorta puzzles me is the velocity of this round. I mean the 147gr XTP's pushed to 1200 + fps did not seem to fair as well as do those that are subsonic up to the 1025fps ones I tested in 9 mm. Am I missing 'sumptin' here ? :dunno:

Again. Seems to me through what I've done (see above post) and the test Bob ran and 481 as well, that the 147gr XTP's (as I said above) seem to perform better at vels under 1100fps and again, mine were working great at 1025fps. I wonder if Hornady's 147gr 357sig cartridge has got a different nose/cavity/lead/copper profile ? :dunno:


CM

481
06-29-2010, 08:56
I wonder if Hornady's 147gr 357sig cartridge has got a different nose/cavity/lead/copper profile ? :dunno:

CM


Same bullet as far as I can tell.

I've only given that round (taken from a friend's gun) a cursory look, but according to my "calibrated MK I eyeball" the .357SIG appears to use the same bullet. Obviously, I (as are you and Bob) am familiar enough with the design to notice something "different", but I cannot say so with 100% certainty.

Glolt20-91
06-29-2010, 14:43
Well I never been a fan of the 357sig, but looking at this with 147gr bullet and the impressive penetration and defeating barriers, I may drop a 357sig barrel in my G27/ or G17 when I can, and try 'em out. Thing that sorta puzzles me is the velocity of this round. I mean the 147gr XTP's pushed to 1200 + fps did not seem to fair as well as do those that are subsonic up to the 1025fps ones I tested in 9 mm. Am I missing 'sumptin' here ? :dunno:

Again. Seems to me through what I've done (see above post) and the test Bob ran and 481 as well, that the 147gr XTP's (as I said above) seem to perform better at vels under 1100fps and again, mine were working great at 1025fps. I wonder if Hornady's 147gr 357sig cartridge has got a different nose/cavity/lead/copper profile ? :dunno:


CM

Save your $$$s buying that .357SIG barrel, you can ballpark high 1100s if you want to, reloading the 9mm/G17.

The 147gr XTP bullet, #35580, is the same bullet used in 9mm Luger/.38Super/.357SIG/9x21mm/9x23mm et al.

Why don't you buy an STI Trojan in .38Super and post an eval for us.

http://www.stiguns.com/guns/Trojan5.0/Trojan50.php

Bob :cowboy:

CanyonMan
06-29-2010, 15:57
Save your $$$s buying that .357SIG barrel, you can ballpark high 1100s if you want to, reloading the 9mm/G17.

The 147gr XTP bullet, #35580, is the same bullet used in 9mm Luger/.38Super/.357SIG/9x21mm/9x23mm et al.

Why don't you buy an STI Trojan in .38Super and post an eval for us.

http://www.stiguns.com/guns/Trojan5.0/Trojan50.php

Bob :cowboy:



About the time I think I can't get any dumber ! :embarassed:


Why don't you buy the Trojan in 38 super you ask?! $$$$$$$$$$$$$
That is a $1,000 gun Hoss ! :wow:

Why don't I ? My wife is on me for a "bigger big screen tv." I am helping pay my sons car insurance, I drive a F-150 Texas/Oklahoma Ranch truck package edition with a huge Triton V8 in it... Shall I go on ? :faint:


Maybe I can sell something I never shoot ! Naw.

I am still in need of help here in my confusion on the XTP's. I am still thinking in the 9mm that they are not performing very well at higher vels. I loaded them to 1025fps (the 147gr'ers) and they did great. Seems on the 147gr XTP's that from subsonic as in 481's test to the 1025 + in mine a while back on the ranch, that they tend to work very well in the penetration and some expansion department. But if I am not completely looney here, I have it in my head they are not doing well at higher vels 1100 on up.

So, if I am correct. Then how well is this 1200fps 357sig going to do? I'm lost here some where and can't seem to get on track even with my own thoughts with this. I am thinking that pushing them faster (147gr XTP's) we were getting worse reports than bringing the vels back down to 900's to low end 1,000's. At least this is what I recall from my foolin around on the ranch a while back, and it seemed in (i thought) some of the test you ran as well that the faster vels did not yield the better results than the above mentioned slower vels... Man I'm :drowning: here in something that I am either spot on about and yet 'think I'm wrong some how.' Or, I am dead wrong altogether and imagining things. (i've done the latter quite often). haha.

Care to throw me a life jacket? :supergrin:


Headed for the grill. Supper time. No snake steaks tonite. Just good old beef !



CM

Snapper2
06-29-2010, 15:59
Well I couldnt help myself. I guess I'm an addict now.:dunno: VV3n38 and 147gr silvertips came in. I went mid load at 6.6gr and OAL of 1.150,ST and 1.142,XTP. I have no idea what the velocity was other than the recoil wasnt bad and no pressure signs on brass or primers. It was actually pretty pleasant to shoot out of my stock g19. Silvertip on the left had an expansion of .620. Bullet length of .450.Weight...148.0gr.. XTP on right was .604 at its widest expansion with a length of .500. Weight...142.8gr. Once again the XTP won out by penetration by an inch in the wetpack(around 11"). The main purpose of the test was to see if the silvertips would lose jackets at a higher than factory velocity. No denim was used.

481
06-29-2010, 17:02
.....

CanyonMan
06-29-2010, 17:51
OK, OK, OK.....

CM got me to thinkin' overnight 'bout all this, "What happens if you push the 9mm 147 gr. XTP faster?" stuff, so today I loaded up the Glock 17L (6.02 inch OEM barrel) and had a look at what happens if you "speed up" the 147 gr. XTP.

Didn't get quite the velocity improvement that I was hoping for. It is, however, the best that I can do for now since I am not 'set up' for reloading just this moment.

Here is what happened:

Side view:

http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y301/CharlesSchwartz/100_2334.jpg


Side view, from a different angle:

http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y301/CharlesSchwartz/100_2335.jpg


Expansion face of the test projectile:

http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y301/CharlesSchwartz/100_2336.jpg




Date: 29June2010<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Ammunition: Hornady 9mm 147 gr. XTP JHP (90282)<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Test Platform: Glock 17L<o:p></o:p>
Barrel Length: 6.02 inches<o:p></o:p>
Caliber: 9x19<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Barrier: 4 layers of 1 ounce cotton T-shirt fabric<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Test Fixture: Fackler Box<o:p></o:p>
Test Media: Water<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Muzzle Velocity: 1019 feet per second<o:p></o:p>
Impact Velocity: 1014 feet per second<o:p></o:p>
Instrumental Distance: 15 feet from impact face <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Test Distance: 21 feet<o:p></o:p>
Temperature: 72° F

Recovered Projectile Data:<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Average Expanded Diameter: 0.523 inch<o:p></o:p>
Retained Weight: 142.8 grains (97.14%)<o:p></o:p>
Shape Aspect: skewed, smooth, asymmetric ellipsoid expansion face
Total Length: 0.568 inch<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
MacPherson Penetration Model Analysis:<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Cavitation Boundary (Vc) = 424.637 feet per second<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Permanent Wound Cavity Mass (Mw) = 39.125 grams (1.386 ounces)<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Penetration Depth (Xcm) = 39.607 cm (15.593 inches)<o:p></o:p>



This particular example shows a little less average expansion that the last 147 gr. XTP tested and (as could be expected) penetration increased as a result of the slightly diminished drag forces.


I'd also like to think that my 'close-up' photography is improving.







Alright. Now compare these pics to the ones you shot at 1003fps, and the the pics on the post before that at 997fps. Is it just me, or does the 997/1003fps look better than the one here at 1019fps? Not trying to make a federal case (or Hornady case) haha outta this. But the pedals on the higher vel bullets look more flakey and brittle, and laid down against the shank of the bullet than those at lower vels.

The ones i did at 1025fps, (man wish I had pics) looked pretty much like the ones you (481) did at 997fps and as I said, if memory serves up to 17" + penetration in water. That was back when you and I were really burning up the key boards over the WWB 147gr stuff.

I don't know that I really have any revelational POINT to all this. But it just simply seems to me max performance from the 147gr XTP is in the 990 to 1025fps range. Mine at the 1025 looked more like you 997 one.

Again. I don't even know any more what the heck I'm doing here :freak:

I guess "for me," I'm finding out that if I am going to ever carry the dang 9mil out in the brush I will roll my own 147 XTP's at 1025. They gave me extremely good accuracy and gave really good (for water) Penetration. Now I got to try them in different media other than water to make sure. Bones, meat, water, clothes, a few prickly pear cactus leaves, that should do it. And still got the 147gr WWB JHP's.

Now watch one of ya come up with something different, that is real good and confusing and I got to re-think this whole thing again. :faint:


Thank God aI carry the 45LC on the ranch and the 45acp in town, and all this 9mm stuff is just a fun learning project ! haha.


OK Bob, 481, Snapper, show me something new here with this so I can go back to the drawing board. HA.


BTW, 481, your close up photography is just fine hoss ! ;)




CanyonMan

481
06-29-2010, 18:06
Thank God aI carry the 45LC on the ranch and the 45acp in town, and all this 9mm stuff is just a fun learning project !

Blasphemy! :shocked:



BTW, 481, your close up photography is just fine hoss ! ;)

Thanks. Think I am finally gettin' the hang of it. More tests will give me the chance to refine my skills further.


I'll leave pushin' the 147 XTP any faster to the handloadin' afficionados 'mongst us.

Cue Bob and Snapper2!


:)

Glolt20-91
06-29-2010, 18:17
OK Bob, 481, Snapper, show me something new here with this so I can go back to the drawing board. HA.

BTW, 481, your close up photography is just fine hoss ! ;)
CanyonMan

Back from the drawing board, you do some nice artwork CM! :thumbsup:

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/m1911-06.jpg

Bob :cowboy:

Glolt20-91
06-29-2010, 18:24
Blasphemy! :shocked:




Thanks. Think I am finally gettin' the hang of it. More tests will give me the chance to refine my skills further.


I'll leave pushin' the 147 XTP any faster to the handloadin' afficionados 'mongst us.

Cue Bob and Snapper2!


:)

Have some ready to chronograph, need to order more tho.

The XTPs will go heads-up with Win 147gr JHP notched, 147gr Silvertip and 147gr Golden Saber; all with the same loaded powder weight. Hopefully they will chrono under 1100fps.

Bob :cowboy:

CanyonMan
06-29-2010, 18:39
Back from the drawing board, you do some nice artwork CM! :thumbsup:

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/m1911-06.jpg

Bob :cowboy:



:rofl:

Well, I do AIM to please ! This was just my 2nd grade art class. :tongueout:

We got to talk amigo and 481. I'm gettin perplexed here about somethings with this 147gr XTP. :dunno:



CM

CanyonMan
06-29-2010, 18:42
Blasphemy! :shocked:




Thanks. Think I am finally gettin' the hang of it. More tests will give me the chance to refine my skills further.

I'll leave pushin' the 147 XTP any faster to the handloadin' afficionados 'mongst us.

Cue Bob and Snapper2!


:)




:rofl: :rofl: you think so ? I got 9mm stuff layin all over the place in the gun room trying to sort this out and find the sweet spot (for me). stashing it all in boxes till I get the chance to run some really hard core test on them. I opened the safe door today and my M1911 45acp was cocked, locked, and pointing itself right at me with a sign under it that read: "Stop this obsession with the 9mm right now or your toast !" haha.


Your doing fine on your photography, believe me. :wavey:

481
06-29-2010, 22:27
Have some ready to chronograph, need to order more tho.

The XTPs will go heads-up with Win 147gr JHP notched, 147gr Silvertip and 147gr Golden Saber; all with the same loaded powder weight. Hopefully they will chrono under 1100fps.

Bob :cowboy:

I can hardly wait. The selection sounds good.

Sounds like CM needs our help. His guns have started talkin' to 'im. I think reading MacPherson's book has melted down his brain with information overload.

Guess we'll have to shoot more stuff and post the pictures to get him outta his 'dark place'. :supergrin:

Glolt20-91
06-30-2010, 01:17
Alright. Now compare these pics to the ones you shot at 1003fps, and the the pics on the post before that at 997fps. Is it just me, or does the 997/1003fps look better than the one here at 1019fps? Not trying to make a federal case (or Hornady case) haha outta this. But the pedals on the higher vel bullets look more flakey and brittle, and laid down against the shank of the bullet than those at lower vels.

The ones i did at 1025fps, (man wish I had pics) looked pretty much like the ones you (481) did at 997fps and as I said, if memory serves up to 17" + penetration in water. That was back when you and I were really burning up the key boards over the WWB 147gr stuff.

I don't know that I really have any revelational POINT to all this. But it just simply seems to me max performance from the 147gr XTP is in the 990 to 1025fps range. Mine at the 1025 looked more like you 997 one.

Again. I don't even know any more what the heck I'm doing here :freak:

I guess "for me," I'm finding out that if I am going to ever carry the dang 9mil out in the brush I will roll my own 147 XTP's at 1025. They gave me extremely good accuracy and gave really good (for water) Penetration. Now I got to try them in different media other than water to make sure. Bones, meat, water, clothes, a few prickly pear cactus leaves, that should do it. And still got the 147gr WWB JHP's.

Now watch one of ya come up with something different, that is real good and confusing and I got to re-think this whole thing again. :faint:


Thank God aI carry the 45LC on the ranch and the 45acp in town, and all this 9mm stuff is just a fun learning project ! haha.


OK Bob, 481, Snapper, show me something new here with this so I can go back to the drawing board. HA.


BTW, 481, your close up photography is just fine hoss ! ;)




CanyonMan

Hey CM, stop beating yourself up over the 147gr XTP velocity thang.

I find the 9mm/124gr XTP to be more than enough for most 4 legged threats like javelina and wild dog packs. A while back an older gal in the Phoenix area was attacked and knocked down by a pack of 16 javelina. I expect the 90gr XTP/1400fps/G17 would terminate most of the 4 legged vermin we're likely to see.

Mountain lion tracks and it's .357mag/140gr XTP/SJHP time. So what I'm saying is that I'm not going to spend a whole lot of time when all I have to do is bump up to a more lethal round.

Although I carry 124gr XTPs in my G17, second mag is loaded with 147gr Gold Dots, 1155fps; just in case.

About time to test the 140gr XTP, .357mag velocities and subdued ~1200fps/.38Super.

C'mon man, you really need to get 1 a dem STI Trojans, then we could share load notes for the .357cal, 140gr XTP and not worry 'bout those 147 grainers. :supergrin:

You can't be a real 1911 dude w/o the Super .38 auto.

Bob :cowboy:

CanyonMan
06-30-2010, 12:18
Hey CM, stop beating yourself up over the 147gr XTP velocity thang.

I find the 9mm/124gr XTP to be more than enough for most 4 legged threats like javelina and wild dog packs. A while back an older gal in the Phoenix area was attacked and knocked down by a pack of 16 javelina. I expect the 90gr XTP/1400fps/G17 would terminate most of the 4 legged vermin we're likely to see.

Mountain lion tracks and it's .357mag/140gr XTP/SJHP time. So what I'm saying is that I'm not going to spend a whole lot of time when all I have to do is bump up to a more lethal round.

Although I carry 124gr XTPs in my G17, second mag is loaded with 147gr Gold Dots, 1155fps; just in case.

About time to test the 140gr XTP, .357mag velocities and subdued ~1200fps/.38Super.

C'mon man, you really need to get 1 a dem STI Trojans, then we could share load notes for the .357cal, 140gr XTP and not worry 'bout those 147 grainers. :supergrin:

You can't be a real 1911 dude w/o the Super .38 auto.

Bob



I had this all typed out real cool to you. All was going well and I said a bunch of really cool things, ha. Pushed the button and GT bumped me off ! Still some problems floating around here me thinks. Well, I ain't typing all that again. Whew !


Any way The meat of it was, I simply want to find the (for me) sweet spot on this 147gr XTP. I am not real happy with the seemingly inconsistant results some of us are getting. Hey amigo, it took me a couple of years or more at the bench and in the field to find the right everything for my 44 "special" load with a 300gr HC bullet that will take elk size animals out of a 4 5/8" barrel Ruger. Then there was all those years of 44mag, then my 45LC Cape Buff Killers 'as you call them'. ha. Man I got all those guys figured out (for me) over 40+ years of loading.

Enter the 147gr 9mil. I am stuck as to (for me) what vel to run that bad boy at to get out of him (what I want, might need). Something inconsistant seems to be going on and it has me at the bench incrementing (sp?) grs of different powders building loads, and loading them in cartridge boxes until I have the time to go out set up some hard core test and decide which load I want to stick with. I may 'defect' and start reloading the WW 147gr instead for what I'm thinking will give deeper penetration with even less vel OR the same vel that the 147gr XTP needs. Man I can see 481 coming after me on that statement. :tongueout:


Anyhow, Like a race car I had once. I feel the need to do some tweaking and fine tuning a tad more before she's ready to hit the 1/4 mile with honors ! :supergrin: At least on the race car my tweaking and fine tuning most always paid off ! :number1:

I can't afford the Trojan 38 super. Man wait till I hit the bench with that one !!! HA. But I would rather have the Colt anyway, but can only at present maybe afford the RIA in 38 super. It may/may not need some real tweaking. ha.


http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab256/yrag5951/GT%20stuff/2636036090095461090S425x425Q85.jpg




Well, honestly, I do feel better now. :therapy: (yeah right ) !



Later Mi Amigo !




CanyonMan

481
06-30-2010, 13:56
....I may 'defect' and start reloading the WW 147gr instead for what I'm thinking will give deeper penetration with even less vel OR the same vel that the 147gr XTP needs. Man I can see 481 coming after me on that statement. :tongueout:


CanyonMan

You just go right on ahead an' do that. Leaves more of the 147 gr. XTPs for me. :winkie:

In all seriousness, I believe that you are over-thinkin' this whole thing.

The 9mm 147 gr. XTP seems to do its best (IMHO) within the velocity 'window' of 950-1050 fps. These tests are far too few (that is they are not a large enough sample population, "n" ) to draw anything other than the Vc, Mw, and Xcm from the individual test results.

Barring what Bob may or may not find in his pending tests, I think that we are seeing what the XTP was (is) designed to do, that being: providing moderate expansion (~1.5 caliber) and deep penetration. (14-17 inches)


.

CanyonMan
06-30-2010, 14:45
You just go right on ahead an' do that. Leaves more of the 147 gr. XTPs for me.

In all seriousness, I believe that you are over-thinkin' this whole thing.

The 9mm 147 gr. XTP seems to do its best (IMHO) within the velocity 'window' of 950-1050 fps. These tests are far too few (that is they are not a large enough sample population, "n" ) to draw anything other than the Vc, Mw, and Xcm from the individual test results.

Barring what Bob may or may not find in his pending tests, I think that we are seeing what the XTP was (is) designed to do, that being: providing moderate expansion (~1.5 caliber) and deep penetration. (14-17 inches)


.



Yeah I figured you would go out and buy 'em all up if I backed off ! :tongueout:




In post # 52 I said this: Seems to me at least that the XTP's in the 9mil in this weight are at their best in this type veloscity range. Now I never pushed them any further than 1025fps 'except once or twice' at much higher vels. I did not get the chance to really check out those higher vels due to some 'personal things' I had to take care of if y'all recall. But I do remember very clearly, they performed (for me) very well at the vels I just posted here. ( 1015/1025) A tad more, say 1050/1075fps may also find a 'sweeter spot.' Again, y'all know why i did not get the chance to do any further testing for a while. I would like to have stopped at 1050/1075.


I agree with the 1050/1075 as I suggested (above). I did get (in water) 17" pen. I am just saying anything I am seeing over these vels the bullet does not seem to stay together well or perform as well. :dunno:

Oh well, I got 'em boxed and ready for testing at between 990fps through 1050fps in increments and different powders as well. When i can set up some clothes, water, bones, cactus pedal/leaves, and got the time (big problem right now), I will blast away, and report back ! ha.

Now on to the real deal: My 45's. I am loading them for absolutely no reason other than to shoot 'em all up and play. 230gr ball out of the G36 @ 875fps. Haha


Close with a pic or two:


http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab256/yrag5951/GT%20stuff/0630001445a.jpg

http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab256/yrag5951/GT%20stuff/0630001452.jpg

http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab256/yrag5951/GT%20stuff/0630001455a.jpg


I might be off my nut on this 9mm binge .. But, I know these work !!! :tongueout:


Later my friends !


CM

Glolt20-91
07-01-2010, 16:15
You just go right on ahead an' do that. Leaves more of the 147 gr. XTPs for me. :winkie:

In all seriousness, I believe that you are over-thinkin' this whole thing.

The 9mm 147 gr. XTP seems to do its best (IMHO) within the velocity 'window' of 950-1050 fps. These tests are far too few (that is they are not a large enough sample population, "n" ) to draw anything other than the Vc, Mw, and Xcm from the individual test results.

Barring what Bob may or may not find in his pending tests, I think that we are seeing what the XTP was (is) designed to do, that being: providing moderate expansion (~1.5 caliber) and deep penetration. (14-17 inches)


.

We've had a lot of wind for a week now, I may bag test the 147gr XTP and chronograph it after the wind dies down. If it blows up, then we'll know it's not a good bullet to push, what do you think?

Tested the .357mag/140gr XTP and it performed very well through water/bone. Will test that bullet for function in the .38Super. :supergrin:

Bob :cowboy:

481
07-01-2010, 16:52
We've had a lot of wind for a week now, I may bag test the 147gr XTP and chronograph it after the wind dies down. If it blows up, then we'll know it's not a good bullet to push, what do you think?

Tested the .357mag/140gr XTP and it performed very well through water/bone. Will test that bullet for function in the .38Super. :supergrin:

Bob :cowboy:

Bob,

Sounds like a plan if you are referring to the plans you laid out in post #64. I cannot imagine the 147 gr. XTP comin' apart under 1100 fps, but stranger things have happened. :dunno:

I'd agree though, that if it 'gives up the ghost' against plain bags at less than 1200 fps, it ain't worth screwin' with. I don't think that it'll be a problem though since it is (allegedly) designed for velocities up to 1200 fps.

Lookin' forward to seein how things work out.

481
07-01-2010, 17:36
.....

CanyonMan
07-02-2010, 08:56
With the 4th of July fast approaching and the time restrictions that will likely ensue, I had to sneak out to the range for just one test today. Decided to run another of my favorite CCW loads, the Winchester Ranger 147 gr. JHP (RA9T).


A side view complete with 'evil' "talons" extended-


http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y301/CharlesSchwartz/100_2322.jpg


A view from the top-


http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y301/CharlesSchwartz/100_2324.jpg




Date: 01July2010
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Ammunition: <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:City><st1:place>Winchester</st1:place></st1:City> Ranger 9mm 147 gr. JHP (RA9T)<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>

Test Platform: Glock 17<o:p></o:p>
Barrel Length: 4.49 inches<o:p></o:p>
Caliber: 9x19<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>

Barrier: 4 layers of 1 ounce cotton T-shirt fabric<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>

Test Media: Water<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>

Muzzle Velocity: 1090 feet per second<o:p></o:p>
Impact Velocity: 1085 feet per second<o:p></o:p>
Instrumental Distance: 15 feet from impact face <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>

Test Distance: 21 feet<o:p></o:p>
Temperature: 75° F<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>

Recovered Projectile Data:
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Average Expanded Diameter: 0.497 inch (1.40x caliber)<o:p></o:p>
Retained Weight: 141.4 grains (95.99%)<o:p></o:p>
Shape Aspect: symmetric, spheroid expansion face, complete jacket extension
Total Length: 0.470 inch<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>

MacPherson Penetration Model Analysis:<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>

Cavitation Boundary (Vc) = 431.059 feet per second
Permanent Wound Cavity Mass (Mw) = 41.143 grams (1.451 ounces)
Penetration Depth (Xcm) = 44.040 cm (17.339 inches)<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p>MacPherson recommends an Mw of 30-40 grams to ensure "adequate" WTI performance. The RA9T exceeds the 'upper bound' of that recommendation by nearly 3 percent.</o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p>Nice. :supergrin:</o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p>Happy 4th of July and my eternal gratitude to All who've served so that we can celebrate another Indepedence Day !!!</o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p>:patriot:</o:p>




Great test results amigo ! Those sharp talons look plumb nasty man. Good penetration as well. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but do those also come in a bonded version ? I thought I saw some a a gun show a while back. Just curious. :dunno:

Again, Thanks. Good test. Good information. Good pics ! ;)


Later



CM

481
07-02-2010, 11:50
Great test results amigo ! Those sharp talons look plumb nasty man. Good penetration as well. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but do those also come in a bonded version ? I thought I saw some a a gun show a while back. Just curious. :dunno:

Again, Thanks. Good test. Good information. Good pics ! ;)

Later

CM

CM,

Yep, there is a bonded version of this bullet. Winchester loads it in their Ranger 9mm 147 gr. JHP RA9B and in their commercially available PDX1 (S9MMPDB1) 147 gr. JHP which I plan to test soon.

Being that it is a bonded design, the talons do not detach and stick out since they are bonded to the lead core. Still, it looks to offer excellent performance according to what Winchester says with claimed expansion to ~1.5x caliber and penetration to meet FBI test protocols (of at least 12").

Given Winchester's reputation, I'd "go out on a limb" and say that it'll do just that.

The test results will either support me or prove me a liar. :supergrin:

Glolt20-91
07-02-2010, 13:54
When it comes to water bag testing, CanyonMan may be on to something testing this bullet.

I loaded the 147gr XTP with 6.2grs of Silhouette powder (Ramshot) in .38Super. Premise was to test this bullet upper 1,000s and ascertain if the XTP was capable of being pushed to Hornady's .357SIG/~1200fps TAP ammo velocities.

We've had a lot of wind lately where I live and it's expected to continue to at least tomorrow, so I conducted a water bag test in the blind as far as velocity is concerned.

I'm going to arbitrarily set MV ~1100fps until this load can be chronographed; then the final numbers can be adjusted up or down.

Water bag test, 31" water penetration;

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/147XTP38Super001.jpg

Asymetrical expansion avg 0.580", recovered bullet weight 125.1 grains;

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/147XTP38Super003.jpg

Here's a comparison pic between the .357mag/140gr XTP/1420fps water plus cowrib penetration and the 147gr XTP;

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/147XTP-140XTP_38S-_357mag002.jpg

The 140 XTP retained 98% of its weight compared to 85%/147XTP.

Expansion comparison; 140(137.4grs)/0.573" vs 147(125.1grs)/0.580"

I'm looking forward to seeing Snapper's tests.

Bob :cowboy:

CanyonMan
07-02-2010, 14:19
When it comes to water bag testing, CanyonMan may be on to something testing this bullet.

I loaded the 147gr XTP with 6.2grs of Silhouette powder (Ramshot) in .38Super. Premise was to test this bullet upper 1,000s and ascertain if the XTP was capable of being pushed to Hornady's .357SIG/~1200fps TAP ammo velocities.

We've had a lot of wind lately where I live and it's expected to continue to at least tomorrow, so I conducted a water bag test in the blind as far as velocity is concerned.

I'm going to arbitrarily set MV ~1100fps until this load can be chronographed; then the final numbers can be adjusted up or down.

Water bag test, 31" water penetration;

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/147XTP38Super001.jpg

Asymetrical expansion avg 0.580", recovered bullet weight 125.1 grains;

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/147XTP38Super003.jpg

Here's a comparison pic between the .357mag/140gr XTP/1420fps water plus cowrib penetration and the 147gr XTP;

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/147XTP-140XTP_38S-_357mag002.jpg

The 140 XTP retained 98% of its weight compared to 85%/147XTP.

Expansion comparison; 140(137.4grs)/0.573" vs 147(125.1grs)/0.580"

I'm looking forward to seeing Snapper's tests.

Bob




:thumbsup: I'm trying amigo's !

This is going to be interesting. (already has been). I'm saying from 990 to 1050/1075 is where this 147XTP is going to be really sweet (er). At least it was for me 'what time I had to play with them on the ranch'. :pepper:


Lookin very interesting here my friend...



CanyonMan
:patriot:

481
07-02-2010, 14:20
When it comes to water bag testing, CanyonMan may be on to something testing this bullet.

I loaded the 147gr XTP with 6.2grs of Silhouette powder (Ramshot) in .38Super. Premise was to test this bullet upper 1,000s and ascertain if the XTP was capable of being pushed to Hornady's .357SIG/~1200fps TAP ammo velocities.

We've had a lot of wind lately where I live and it's expected to continue to at least tomorrow, so I conducted a water bag test in the blind as far as velocity is concerned.

I'm going to arbitrarily set MV ~1100fps until this load can be chronographed; then the final numbers can be adjusted up or down.

Water bag test, 31" water penetration;

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/147XTP38Super001.jpg

Asymetrical expansion avg 0.580", recovered bullet weight 125.1 grains;

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/147XTP38Super003.jpg

Here's a comparison pic between the .357mag/140gr XTP/1420fps water plus cowrib penetration and the 147gr XTP;

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/147XTP-140XTP_38S-_357mag002.jpg

The 140 XTP retained 98% of its weight compared to 85%/147XTP.

Expansion comparison; 140(137.4grs)/0.573" vs 147(125.1grs)/0.580"

I'm looking forward to seeing Snapper's tests.

Bob :cowboy:

Bob,

Wow. Nice results and thanks for the shot!

Here are the (revised 07.07.2010) MacPherson numbers (subject to change as above) using your velocity estimate.

Hornady 9mm 147 gr. XTP JHP

Impact Velocity: 1151 fps
Recovered weight: 125.1 grains
Recovered average diameter: 0.580 inch

Cavitation Boundary (Vc) = 411.543 feet per second
Permanent Wound Cavity Mass (Mw) = 38.412 grams (1.355 ounces)
Penetration Depth (Xcm) = 31.788 cm (12.515 inches)

Gelatin-to-water penetration ratio: 1 : 2.477



From the 147 gr. XTP's appearance and past experience, I'd be willing to guess that you might've exceeded 1100 fps. :whistling: And I'd be correct!

Glolt20-91
07-02-2010, 15:10
From the 147 gr. XTP's appearance and past experience, I'd be willing to guess that you might've exceeded 1100 fps.

That's certainly possible, my experience using Silhouette is limited.

Ramshot load data;

6.1grs/1,067fps to 6.8grs/1,185fps; COAL 1.270"

I dropped the COAL to 1.258" for reliable magazine feed, 1.260" is max COAL
for Wilson magazines.

Even at a low load weight, Silhouette burned very clean with low muzzle blast/recoil.

Bob :cowboy:

481
07-02-2010, 15:19
That's certainly possible, my experience using Silhouette is limited.

Ramshot load data;

6.1grs/1,067fps to 6.8grs/1,185fps; COAL 1.70"

I dropped the COAL to 1.585" for reliable magazine feed, 1.600" is max COAL
for Wilson magazines.

Even at a low load weight, Silhouette burned very clean with low muzzle blast/recoil.

Bob :cowboy:

Heard good things about Silhouette. Guessing from the loading data provided that you are expecting to see 1085-1095 fps using this OAL?

Hope the wind settles for you soon.

Nothing worse than having to wait on something that you cannot control in order to do something you really wanna do.

Snapper2
07-02-2010, 15:48
I'm looking forward to seeing Snapper's tests.

Bob :cowboy:

I'll try and get a more accurate and disciplined test with measurements in the wet pack this weekend. Without denim and using 6.6gr 3n38 all three(ST,XTP,GD) did good. With the ST getting the best( final) expansion without jacket separation . The xtp as usual out penetrated all. I cant find a fault with this bullet.(even if it loses weight it still out penetrates with decent expansion). The GD blew a 1"+ hole after passing the first 1"or so of the wet pack extending through 6" thick catalog before the pedals wrapped around the bullet and penetrated a little farther.(I'll get better pics and measurements). It looked as if a 1"drill bit was punched clean through it.:wow:

Glolt20-91
07-02-2010, 16:37
I'll try and get a more accurate and disciplined test with measurements in the wet pack this weekend. Without denim and using 6.6gr 3n38 all three(ST,XTP,GD) did good. With the ST getting the best( final) expansion without jacket separation . The xtp as usual out penetrated all. I cant find a fault with this bullet.(even if it loses weight it still out penetrates with decent expansion). The GD blew a 1"+ hole after passing the first 1"or so of the wet pack extending through 6" thick catalog before the pedals wrapped around the bullet and penetrated a little farther.(I'll get better pics and measurements). It looked as if a 1"drill bit was punched clean through it.:wow:

Certainly encouraging numbers running in the mid 1100s, gotta like the size of that 1" hole. :supergrin::rollsmiley:

Bob :cowboy:

Snapper2
07-03-2010, 18:19
I promised a better test. Seems I lied. Measuring bullet depth in the wet pack was just a rough measurement.Covered by the 2 layers of a blue jean shirt sleeve, the 147gr Gold dot and XTP penetrated roughly 10" and the 147gr Silvertip and 115gr TAC-XP around 8-9". Gold dot .600 expansion. .434 bullet length...Silvertip measurement was .654 expansion and .434 length. XTP was .538 and .510 length. Barnes bullet .657 with a length of .488. I did bump the load up a notch to max load data of 6.9 with an OAL of 1.150 on the 147gr bullets. It seems the only bullet I can get to seperate a jacket in a wet pack is a Golden Saber. I'm thinking about getting a few bonded 147gr GS to see how they do.

CanyonMan
07-03-2010, 18:39
I promised a better test. Seems I lied. Measuring bullet depth in the wet pack was just a rough measurement.Covered by the 2 layers of a blue jean shirt sleeve, the 147gr Gold dot and XTP penetrated roughly 10" and the 147gr Silvertip and 115gr TAC-XP around 8-9". Gold dot .600 expansion. .434 bullet length...Silvertip measurement was .654 expansion and .434 length. XTP was .538 and .510 length. Barnes bullet .657 with a length of .488. I did bump the load up a notch to max load data of 6.9 with an OAL of 1.150 on the 147gr bullets. It seems the only bullet I can get to seperate a jacket in a wet pack is a Golden Saber. I'm thinking about getting a few bonded 147gr GS to see how they do.



Hey snapper, good test amigo. Thanks for your contributions, they are always welcome. Let me ask you what vels were you running the XTP's at ?

Again. Good test, and thanks for the pics. :thumbsup:



Stay Safe !


CanyonMan

Snapper2
07-03-2010, 19:25
Hey snapper, good test amigo. Thanks for your contributions, they are always welcome. Let me ask you what vels were you running the XTP's at ?

Again. Good test, and thanks for the pics. :thumbsup:



Stay Safe !


CanyonMan

Thanks CM, I loaded these up with 6.9gr of vv3n38, up from 6.6gr I tested earlier. This is their published max load that is suppose to run 1200fps in a 4" barrel.(I used a stock g19 at a 4ft range) The primers are flattened so I'll go back to 6.6gr.With the lighter load it seems the XTPs flattened out a little more but the 2 layers of denim might have played a part in this. I was a little more surprised by the gold dots which usually have their pedals wrapped around the bullet. OAL was 1.150

481
07-03-2010, 20:44
I promised a better test. Seems I lied. Measuring bullet depth in the wet pack was just a rough measurement.Covered by the 2 layers of a blue jean shirt sleeve, the 147gr Gold dot and XTP penetrated roughly 10" and the 147gr Silvertip and 115gr TAC-XP around 8-9". Gold dot .600 expansion. .434 bullet length...Silvertip measurement was .654 expansion and .434 length. XTP was .538 and .510 length. Barnes bullet .657 with a length of .488. I did bump the load up a notch to max load data of 6.9 with an OAL of 1.150 on the 147gr bullets. It seems the only bullet I can get to seperate a jacket in a wet pack is a Golden Saber. I'm thinking about getting a few bonded 147gr GS to see how they do.

Snapper-

Thanks for the pictures of your tests.

For an 'old' design that 147 gr. Silvertip really let loose didn't it?

Even at elevated velocities the XTP still holds the line right at 1.5x caliber expansion. Gotta love that kind of consistency.

:)

Snapper2
07-03-2010, 20:59
Snapper-

Thanks for the pictures of your tests.

For an 'old' design that 147 gr. Silvertip really let loose didn't it?

Even at elevated velocities the XTP still holds the line right at 1.5x caliber expansion. Gotta love that kind of consistency.

:)

Yes that seems very true. I hear they are pretty accurate too. At some point I guess I need to start testing that as well.:supergrin:

Glolt20-91
07-04-2010, 00:08
Thanks CM, I loaded these up with 6.9gr of vv3n38, up from 6.6gr I tested earlier. This is their published max load that is suppose to run 1200fps in a 4" barrel.(I used a stock g19 at a 4ft range) The primers are flattened so I'll go back to 6.6gr.With the lighter load it seems the XTPs flattened out a little more but the 2 layers of denim might have played a part in this. I was a little more surprised by the gold dots which usually have their pedals wrapped around the bullet. OAL was 1.150

Depending on which primers you are loading, you're probably at least 1200fps with 3N38.

Winds here have been blowing for over a week now, well, during daylight hours. I have 4 147gr loads to chronograph and some .327 Federal Mag 115gr Gold Dots from a 2" barrel.

Good work and thanks for sharing. Making big holes w/o shovels can become habit forming. :supergrin:

Bob :cowboy:

CanyonMan
07-04-2010, 09:39
Good work and thanks for sharing. Making big holes w/o shovels can become habit forming. :supergrin: Bob :cowboy:



:rofl:

Man you got that right !



CM

CanyonMan
07-04-2010, 09:42
Thanks CM, I loaded these up with 6.9gr of vv3n38, up from 6.6gr I tested earlier. This is their published max load that is suppose to run 1200fps in a 4" barrel.(I used a stock g19 at a 4ft range) The primers are flattened so I'll go back to 6.6gr.With the lighter load it seems the XTPs flattened out a little more but the 2 layers of denim might have played a part in this. I was a little more surprised by the gold dots which usually have their pedals wrapped around the bullet. OAL was 1.150


Load data noted and loged for the future. Thanks snapper.
Thanks for the PM as well on that barrel issue. ;)


Looking good man.




CM

481
07-08-2010, 11:50
..............

CanyonMan
07-08-2010, 13:01
Got out before the heat could pose a problem and shot some issued ammunition from my professional past.

Often maligned for being an "old" design, my former Agency issued the Federal 9mm 147 gr. Hydra-Shok for well over 12 years before switching over just a month prior to my retirement to the .40 S&W (and issuing the Winchester Ranger 180 gr. JHP RA40T) because they got an excellent deal on new guns from a distributor who was pushing the .40 S&W hard.

We never had an Officer injured or killed as a result of this ammunition's performance (we never had a failure) during our deployment of the 9mm 147 gr. Hydra-Shok JHP and I believe that some, in their rush to the next, newest, 'super' round, have mistakenly 'written it off' as being a poor ammunition choice.

In this test, impact was quite spectacular and the test fixture was shaken more than I've seen in a very long time. My chronograph was soaked (it's OK though) as it sat 15 feet away from the impact face and for a moment or two, I thought I broke something.


Date: 08July2010<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Ammunition: Federal 9mm 147 gr. Hydra-Shok JHP (P9HS2G1)

Frontal view of expansion face


http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y301/CharlesSchwartz/100_2333.jpg



Side view of expanded Federal 147 gr. Hydra-Shok


http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y301/CharlesSchwartz/100_2331.jpg


Another side view (opposite side)


http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y301/CharlesSchwartz/100_2330.jpg

<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>

Test Platform: Glock 17<o:p></o:p>
Barrel Length: 4.49 inches<o:p></o:p>
Caliber: 9x19<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Barrier: 4 layers of 1 ounce cotton T-shirt fabric<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Test Media: Water<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Muzzle Velocity: 1035 feet per second<o:p></o:p>
Impact Velocity: 1030 feet per second<o:p></o:p>
Instrumental Distance: 15 feet from impact face <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Kinetic Energy = 469.411 Joules<o:p></o:p>
Power = 174.71 kW<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Test Distance: 21 feet<o:p></o:p>
Temperature: 85° F<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>

Recovered Projectile Data:<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Average Expanded Diameter: 0.506 inch<o:p></o:p>
Retained Weight: 143.3 grains (97.48%)<o:p></o:p>
Shape Aspect: smooth, asymmetric spheroid expansion face<o:p></o:p>
Total Length: 0.468 inch<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
MacPherson Penetration Model Analysis:<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Cavitation Boundary (Vc) = 428.744 feet per second<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Permanent Wound Cavity Mass (Mw) = 40.605 grams (1.432 ounces)<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Penetration Depth (Xin) = 42.175 cm (16.604 inches)

<o:p>Despite projectile expansion that could be called "moderate" (~1.43x caliber), the Federal 9mm 147 gr. Hydra-Shok produced an impressive Mw. Xin was an unexpected 16.604 inches. Impact was 'very energetic' and kind of refreshing! :supergrin: (given the building heat)</o:p>




Hey buddy,

I must admit, I have never liked the Hydra-Shok bullet. Don't ask me why, I could not answer. Just one of those things. The expansion for this I agree with you on, and I must say (like you) that I am really surprised at the ammount of penetration this round got. I think that is one reason I never warmed up to them. In the past, ones I fired did not come close to what you just got in your test results.. :dunno:


Anyway. Good test/report as always ! Plus ya got sprayed in the hot wheather. :supergrin:


Very good amigo.




CM

CanyonMan
07-08-2010, 13:09
CM,

Yep, there is a bonded version of this bullet. Winchester loads it in their Ranger 9mm 147 gr. JHP RA9B and in their commercially available PDX1 (S9MMPDB1) 147 gr. JHP which I plan to test soon.

Being that it is a bonded design, the talons do not detach and stick out since they are bonded to the lead core. Still, it looks to offer excellent performance according to what Winchester says with claimed expansion to ~1.5x caliber and penetration to meet FBI test protocols (of at least 12").

Given Winchester's reputation, I'd "go out on a limb" and say that it'll do just that.

The test results will either support me or prove me a liar. :supergrin:


Man I tell ya, I am up and down with the PDX1. I like it then I don't. Although i did buy a box of it the other day to run in my M1911 and G36... Yes I still favor the 230gr ball. :tongueout: But I thought I might as well Go with this for a while. Right now in the 45, the PDX1 230gr bonded, and the Hornady 230gr XTP Tap and my 230gr ball are on the top of my list. Of course we all know my favorite for the 9mm :whistling: Looking for more ! :supergrin:


Really other than that (brand X bullet) really cheap non flashy stuff I love so much, uh hum, I like the PDX1 in 9mm and the same XTP Tap all 147's of course ! ha.


Thanks amigo.
Talk with ya soon



CanyonMan

Glolt20-91
07-08-2010, 16:27
Got out before the heat could pose a problem and shot some issued ammunition from my professional past.

Often maligned for being an "old" design, my former Agency issued the Federal 9mm 147 gr. Hydra-Shok for well over 12 years before switching over just a month prior to my retirement to the .40 S&W (and issuing the Winchester Ranger 180 gr. JHP RA40T) because they got an excellent deal on new guns from a distributor who was pushing the .40 S&W hard.

We never had an Officer injured or killed as a result of this ammunition's performance (we never had a failure) during our deployment of the 9mm 147 gr. Hydra-Shok JHP and I believe that some, in their rush to the next, newest, 'super' round, have mistakenly 'written it off' as being a poor ammunition choice.

In this test, impact was quite spectacular and the test fixture was shaken more than I've seen in a very long time. My chronograph was soaked (it's OK though) as it sat 15 feet away from the impact face and for a moment or two, I thought I broke something. :shocked:


Date: 08July2010<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Ammunition: Federal 9mm 147 gr. Hydra-Shok JHP (P9HS2G1)

Test Platform: Glock 17<o:p></o:p>
Barrel Length: 4.49 inches<o:p></o:p>
Caliber: 9x19<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Barrier: 4 layers of 1 ounce cotton T-shirt fabric<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Test Media: Water<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Muzzle Velocity: 1035 feet per second<o:p></o:p>
Impact Velocity: 1030 feet per second<o:p></o:p>
Instrumental Distance: 15 feet from impact face <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Kinetic Energy = 469.411 Joules<o:p></o:p>
Power = 174.71 kW<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Test Distance: 21 feet<o:p></o:p>
Temperature: 85° F<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>

Recovered Projectile Data:<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Average Expanded Diameter: 0.506 inch<o:p></o:p>
Retained Weight: 143.3 grains (97.48%)<o:p></o:p>
Shape Aspect: smooth, asymmetric spheroid expansion face<o:p></o:p>
Total Length: 0.468 inch<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
MacPherson Penetration Model Analysis:<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Cavitation Boundary (Vc) = 428.744 feet per second<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Permanent Wound Cavity Mass (Mw) = 40.605 grams (1.432 ounces)<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Penetration Depth (Xin) = 42.175 cm (16.604 inches)

<o:p>Despite projectile expansion that could be called "moderate" (~1.43x caliber), the Federal 9mm 147 gr. Hydra-Shok produced an impressive Mw. Xin was an unexpected 16.604 inches. Impact was 'very energetic' and kind of refreshing! :supergrin: (given the building heat)</o:p>

Nice bullet numbers, I can see why you like the HydraShok for carry.

85F, we were there around 2:00AM, 98F when I tested a 124gr GD at lunch time; shooting pit past 125F.

By time water bags are tested; it's a warm shower. :supergrin:

So, when will you begin testing a real handgun caliber; .45auto??? :rofl:

Bob :cowboy:

Snapper2
07-08-2010, 18:04
Got a box of 147gr bonded Golden Sabers in the mail today and couldnt help myself. Back to the range with the wet pack.:supergrin: Tested 3 bullets through a layer of blue jeans. I wanted to a least try and get a bonded GS to come out its jacket like I've had the regular GSers do. So I pulled a bullet and loaded a max charge of vv3n38.(supposively 1200fps according to manual).
Bullet on the right is the handloaded bullet measuring .622 expansion,.438 bullet length. wt. of 146gr. Factory round GS measured .602 expansion .458 length. wt. 146.7. The 124gr Gold dot was handloaded to +p and expanded to.700. length of.326. recovered wt of 125gr. The 124gr Gold dot actually almost penetrated as much as the handloaded 147gr GS. The factory round penetrated about an inch less in the wet pack at 9".

Glolt20-91
07-08-2010, 18:29
Got a box of 147gr bonded Golden Sabers in the mail today and couldnt help myself. Back to the range with the wet pack.:supergrin: Tested 3 bullets through a layer of blue jeans. I wanted to a least try and get a bonded GS to come out its jacket like I've had the regular GSers do. So I pulled a bullet and loaded a max charge of vv3n38.(supposively 1200fps according to manual).
Bullet on the right is the handloaded bullet measuring .622 expansion,.438 bullet length. wt. of 146gr. Factory round GS measured .602 expansion .458 length. wt. 146.7. The 124gr Gold dot was handloaded to +p and expanded to.700. length of.326. recovered wt of 125gr. The 124gr Gold dot actually almost penetrated as much as the handloaded 147gr GS. The factory round penetrated about an inch less in the wet pack at 9".

Nice work. At 1268fps, 124gr Gold Dot expanded to 0.920". Do you have a MV for the GD you tested.

147gr Silvertip at 1150fps held together (97.2%) and expanded to 0.648".

Lots of testing happening nowadaze. :supergrin:

Bob :cowboy:

Snapper2
07-08-2010, 19:00
Nice work. At 1268fps, 124gr Gold Dot expanded to 0.920". Do you have a MV for the GD you tested.

147gr Silvertip at 1150fps held together (97.2%) and expanded to 0.648".

Lots of testing happening nowadaze. :supergrin:

Bob :cowboy:

The 124gr Gold dot was loaded just a little above max load data in new brass. 6gr Unique. OAL..1.120. Shoots pretty accurate out of my g19. .920?:wow: is an explosion. Gold dots do appear to do the most damage in the wet pack.

481
07-08-2010, 21:51
Nice bullet numbers, I can see why you like the HydraShok for carry.

We were always pleased with its performance and with the direct experiences we had with it I always felt that I was suitably and properly armed. Got a few thousand rounds of it stashed away just for nostalgia's sake. Let my boy have 'em when he is old enough. Kind of a 'keepsake' if you will...besides all of his old man's guns. :winkie:


So, when will you begin testing a real handgun caliber; .45auto??? :rofl:

Bob :cowboy:

Eh heh...so its gonna be like that, huh? :whistling:

I'll be movin' on to the .45 soon. Promise. Gotta a laundry list of tests with the 9mm that I wanna knock out first, then it is time for the .45 ACP.



CM, you just stick with those XTPs and WWBs that you like so much. Not a thing wrong with 'em (other than me not havin' 'em ;) ) and they'll keep you in good stead 'til you need 'em.

How's that book comin' along?

481
07-08-2010, 22:10
Nice work. At 1268fps, 124gr Gold Dot expanded to 0.920". Do you have a MV for the GD you tested.

147gr Silvertip at 1150fps held together (97.2%) and expanded to 0.648".

Lots of testing happening nowadaze. :supergrin:

Bob :cowboy:

Yeah, you've got me doing all kinds of testing, contemplating crazy stuff and soaking my chronograph for the entertainment of it.

It is fun though ain't it?

:)

Glolt20-91
07-09-2010, 01:39
Yeah, you've got me doing all kinds of testing, contemplating crazy stuff and soaking my chronograph for the entertainment of it.

It is fun though ain't it?

:)

Speaking of crazy stuff, I've thought about night testing cuz the water should be cooler. Desert Dawg and I were just outside playing fetch, he does better with the flashlight on, and it's really dark with it off. Must be clouds cuz we can't see stars or the Milky Way, still 81F, gotta be careful with nocturnal, slithery vermin this time of year.

We had some really close coyotes yippin the other night, they shut up when hit by the tact light/laser on the G17. Then there was that not so distant rattle, looked for it to test some night time focus shooting, but the cowardly vermin couldn't be found.

How do those IR screens work in darkness?

The 124gr Gold Dot might prove decent on javelina if they charge, but I'm concerned its deep cavity might plug up going through fur and hide.

I still have the Winchester 147gr JHP notched (WWB 147gr JHP?) to test at 1150fps, plus the 147gr Golden Saber at 1160fps. Apparently, the driving band at the base of the GS gives a little better seal/velocity in the .356cal bore of the .38Super.

The 147gr notched mid 1200s was top tier performance against steel and 5 plus one gallon water jugs. Blew out a big hole in 1/2" pressed wood panel, then exploded a couple of jugs.

Now comes the baseline water bag test.

Bob :cowboy:

481
07-09-2010, 09:07
Speaking of crazy stuff, I've thought about night testing cuz the water should be cooler. Desert Dawg and I were just outside playing fetch, he does better with the flashlight on, and it's really dark with it off. Must be clouds cuz we can't see stars or the Milky Way, still 81F, gotta be careful with nocturnal, slithery vermin this time of year.

We had some really close coyotes yippin the other night, they shut up when hit by the tact light/laser on the G17. Then there was that not so distant rattle, looked for it to test some night time focus shooting, but the cowardly vermin couldn't be found.

How do those IR screens work in darkness?

The 124gr Gold Dot might prove decent on javelina if they charge, but I'm concerned its deep cavity might plug up going through fur and hide.

I still have the Winchester 147gr JHP notched (WWB 147gr JHP?) to test at 1150fps, plus the 147gr Golden Saber at 1160fps. Apparently, the driving band at the base of the GS gives a little better seal/velocity in the .356cal bore of the .38Super.

The 147gr notched mid 1200s was top tier performance against steel and 5 plus one gallon water jugs. Blew out a big hole in 1/2" pressed wood panel, then exploded a couple of jugs.

Now comes the baseline water bag test.

Bob :cowboy:

Great! Looking forward to seein' what the Winchester 147 gr. JHP will do when pushed. Since its construction is identical (if not, at least closely so) to that of the 147 gr. Silvertip JHP, I expect that we'll see similar behavior to that of your prior test. Be interesting to see what happens and I am all eyes waiting for this one. Should be very informative and I look forward to running the numbers and making comparison.

The 147 gr. Golden Sabre should be neat to see, too. Having little actual experience with that design, I look forward to seeing what it'll do.

My economy model (read: 'el-cheapo') screens operate in the visible wavelength and are probably different from yours. If they are IR, they should work at night especially well what with the larger thermal gradient from the cooler night air.

Where I get "turned off" with 'night shooting' is when I hear "rattling" (not the deer type) in close proximity. I'll pass, thanks very much. :whistling: When it comes to night-time encounters with lethally venomous reptilia, my family crest is a cringing chicken holding an axe and a bottle of Valium.

CanyonMan
07-09-2010, 12:33
Great! Looking forward to seein' what the Winchester 147 gr. JHP will do when pushed. Since its construction is identical (if not, at least closely so) to that of the 147 gr. Silvertip JHP, I expect that we'll see similar behavior to that of your prior test. Be interesting to see what happens and I am all eyes waiting for this one. Should be very informative and I look forward to running the numbers and making comparison.

The 147 gr. Golden Sabre should be neat to see, too. Having little actual experience with that design, I look forward to seeing what it'll do.

My economy model (read: 'el-cheapo') screens operate in the visible wavelength and are probably different from yours. If they are IR, they should work at night especially well what with the larger thermal gradient from the cooler night air.

Where I get "turned off" with 'night shooting' is when I hear "rattling" (not the deer type) in close proximity. I'll pass, thanks very much. :whistling: When it comes to night-time encounters with lethally venomous reptilia, my family crest is a cringing chicken holding an axe and a bottle of Valium.



:rofl: On the "Blue Part."


I pulled this one out buy hand (see below pic I'm the guy in the hat) by the cattle guard, then beat him in the head with a Mesquite stick then stomped on his head with my boot heel and spur.

He shows 5' in the pic my brother took, but when the kink was out it was 5' 3" we got 'em a lot bigger than this boy out here though ! ;)


http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab256/yrag5951/GT%20stuff/IMG_00204444.jpg



Stay safe!




CM

481
07-09-2010, 13:20
:rofl: On the "Blue Part."


I pulled this one out buy hand (see below pic I'm the guy in the hat) by the cattle guard, then beat him in the head with a Mesquite stick then stomped on his head with my boot heel and spur.

He shows 5' in the pic my brother took, but when the kink was out it was 5' 3" we got 'em a lot bigger than this boy out here though ! ;)


http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab256/yrag5951/GT%20stuff/IMG_00204444.jpg



Stay safe!




CM


Oh, yeah. :upeyes: That's just what I need to have crawlin' up my leg :shocked: as I am goofin' 'round in the desert at night!

While I think that they are beautiful animals and don't wanna destroy 'em myself, I keep a healthy distance (and respect) of 'em.

Lemme guess, 'rattler' and beans tonight?

Glolt20-91
07-09-2010, 13:21
I pulled this one out buy hand (see below pic I'm the guy in the hat) by the cattle guard, then beat him in the head with a Mesquite stick then stomped on his head with my boot heel and spur.

Stay safe!

CM

You're absolutely crazy. :wow:

Kinda gives new meaning to the word 'flat'. :supergrin:

Bob :cowboy:

Glolt20-91
07-09-2010, 13:27
Great! Looking forward to seein' what the Winchester 147 gr. JHP will do when pushed. Since its construction is identical (if not, at least closely so) to that of the 147 gr. Silvertip JHP, I expect that we'll see similar behavior to that of your prior test. Be interesting to see what happens and I am all eyes waiting for this one. Should be very informative and I look forward to running the numbers and making comparison.

The 147 gr. Golden Sabre should be neat to see, too. Having little actual experience with that design, I look forward to seeing what it'll do.

When it comes to night-time encounters with lethally venomous reptilia, my family crest is a cringing chicken holding an axe and a bottle of Valium.

So how long does it take for a pit viper to OD on valium???

Okay, 147gr GS, don't bother trying to push it.

147gr Win JHP, you made an excellent choice with WWB 9mm/147gr JHP for self defense, and this ammo is a lot cheaper than 9mm/147gr GS. :thumbsup:

Bob

481
07-09-2010, 13:38
So how long does it take for a pit viper to OD on valium???

Okay, 147gr GS, don't bother trying to push it.

147gr Win JHP, you made an excellent choice with WWB 9mm/147gr JHP for self defense, and this ammo is a lot cheaper than 9mm/147gr GS. :thumbsup:

Bob

The Valium is for the cringing chicken, smartass! :animlol: Geez!!! Dontcha know nuffin' !?!?

You already shoot these (new tests) or did I miss somethin'?

Glolt20-91
07-09-2010, 14:43
The Valium is for the cringing chicken, smartass! :animlol: Geez!!! Dontcha know nuffin' !?!?

You already shoot these (new tests) or did I miss somethin'?

Now I'm really confused, I thought Crest was toothpaste for the chicken and the axe was to keep you away from takin' the chicken's toothpaste; so . . . the logical deduction was that valium had to be for the rattler. :supergrin:

It took me awhile to post the Win JHP results, tryin' to get you back on track over here.

Bob :cowboy:

481
07-09-2010, 15:24
OK, I surrender.

You are simply destroying me in this battle of witlessness*.
















* feigned

Glolt20-91
07-09-2010, 16:45
OK, I surrender.















* feigned

You are simply destroying me in this battle of witlessness*.

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Great, I'll take the axe, toothpaste and chicken, you get to keep your colours, valium and the pit viper.

Retested the 147gr Golden Saber with 4 layers of denim, plus I found the lead core from #1 test . . . . . . . :crying:

Now I get to post the numbers. :embarassed:

Bob :cowboy:

481
07-09-2010, 16:51
Great, I'll take the axe, toothpaste and chicken, you get to keep your colours, valium and the pit viper.

Retested the 147gr Golden Saber with 4 layers of denim, plus I found the lead core from #1 test . . . . . . . :crying:

Now I get to post the numbers. :embarassed:

Bob :cowboy:

Oh yeah, that's fair! You get the hardware and a food source and I get the dope and the poison rope. Thanks a million! :upeyes:

Cool! Numbers will follow. :cool:

CanyonMan
07-09-2010, 18:22
Oh, yeah. :upeyes: That's just what I need to have crawlin' up my leg :shocked: as I am goofin' 'round in the desert at night!

While I think that they are beautiful animals and don't wanna destroy 'em myself, I keep a healthy distance (and respect) of 'em.

Lemme guess, 'rattler' and beans tonight?


:rofl:

Try walking out to a corral or barn etc, in the pitch black of night in your boxers and boots :supergrin: and hear BUZZZZZZ ! always a :wow:

Nope, I threw this guy over in a mesquite clump for the buzzards. Hey, they got to eat to ! haha.



CM

CanyonMan
07-09-2010, 18:40
You're absolutely crazy. :wow:

Kinda gives new meaning to the word 'flat'. :supergrin:

Bob :cowboy:






My wife has told me this for 31 yaers ! Man. I wonder if it's true ? :dunno:


Bob, you and 481 know what my handsome mug looks like, but no need to show off to everyone here, ha. So, here is a pic of another one I pulled out of a hole in the middle of a huge cactus clump by the tail. I was behind the house turkey hunting late one evening, and this old boy crused by me and wanted a piece of me ( i scared him) then he slitherd in a hole and I grabbed his tail right quick and "slung" him out, and beat him in the noggin with the mesquite stick you see in my other hand. I am 6 feet, so you can see what he is. He ruined my hunt ! Can't ruin a man's hunt !


http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab256/yrag5951/GT%20stuff/IMG_00905-1.jpg


BTW, his noggin was flat too. haha.



CanyonMan

CanyonMan
07-09-2010, 18:46
You are simply destroying me in this battle of witlessness*.

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Great, I'll take the axe, toothpaste and chicken, you get to keep your colours, valium and the pit viper.

Retested the 147gr Golden Saber with 4 layers of denim, plus I found the lead core from #1 test . . . . . . .

Now I get to post the numbers. :embarassed:

Bob :cowboy:



WOW ! and you called ME "crazy" ? I think you and 481 ought to go eat some chicken then use your crest, then take a another Valium. :tongueout:



CM

Coffee Dog
07-09-2010, 19:27
We were always pleased with its performance and with the direct experiences we had with it I always felt that I was suitably and properly armed. Got a few thousand rounds of it stashed away just for nostalgia's sake. Let my boy have 'em when he is old enough. Kind of a 'keepsake' if you will...besides all of his old man's guns. :winkie:



Eh heh...so its gonna be like that, huh? :whistling:

I'll be movin' on to the .45 soon. Promise. Gotta a laundry list of tests with the 9mm that I wanna knock out first, then it is time for the .45 ACP.



CM, you just stick with those XTPs and WWBs that you like so much. Not a thing wrong with 'em (other than me not havin' 'em ;) ) and they'll keep you in good stead 'til you need 'em.

How's that book comin' along?

481:

I like your test on the 147 hydra shok-a very potent round of ammo.
Looking forward to your testing of 45 caliber ammo--I must admit I have an interest in both the 185+p hydra shok and the 230 version of hydra shok. It would be intersting to see how large their permanent cavity mass gets.
Again thank-you for your tests!:wavey:

481
07-09-2010, 20:02
CM,

Whoa! What you are doin' with those rattlers! We have a term for that where I come from: Flirtin' with the fickle finger of fate.

Actually the first word ain't flirtin', but I toned it down for those of delicate sensitivities. :winkie: Either way, that's some mighty nervous business there, my friend.

481
07-09-2010, 20:10
481:

I like your test on the 147 hydra shok-a very potent round of ammo.
Looking forward to your testing of 45 caliber ammo--I must admit I have an interest in both the 185+p hydra shok and the 230 version of hydra shok. It would be intersting to see how large their permanent cavity mass gets.
Again thank-you for your tests!:wavey:

Wonder Dog,

You are welcome. I'm glad that you found it interesting.

I have a couple of ideas this far along for what I am gonna test with the .45ACP. Test pistol will be the HK USP45.

Two loads are in the running at this point, neither of which are the ones that you've mentioned, but until I know for sure what I am gonna test (usually the day of) I tend to keep it to myself since I hate letting folks down if circumstances intervene negatively. If the situation permits, I'll try to make it happen (I have neither round on hand at this time), but it's largely dependant upon what I can find near test time.

CanyonMan
07-09-2010, 20:51
CM,

Whoa! What you are doin' with those rattlers! We have a term for that where I come from: Flirtin' with the fickle finger of fate.

Actually the first word ain't flirtin', but I toned it down for those of delicate sensitivities. :winkie: Either way, that's some mighty nervous business there, my friend.

What am I doing with them you ask ?

Killing all of them I can. Their like some realitives, you never can get rid of them, but at least ya gotta try ! :rofl:

We relly do have them "literally" crawling every where here.

BTW I do not always use a mesquite stick (although they are handy suckers) I usually shoot them. But, boot heels and spurs do work well along with mesquite sticks ! :supergrin:



Later amigo.


CM

481
07-12-2010, 13:50
.......

CanyonMan
07-12-2010, 14:51
If 9 mil has to be used in combat situations, (and it does in most) this helps folks to understand how having a couple guys lined up in the sights can ruin a BG's day. Good fun test, and one that we do not usually see any where. (that is the FMJ). ;) Expected results, but great reminder of what the 9mm can do with the FMJ stuff.

You did not get wet ? Your kidding man. With half of the worlds clean water supply in those bags and jugs and all the penetration and 'no wet 481' ? :faint: Next time get soaked. It's much more fun hoss ! :supergrin:

Man that journey through the water sure did shine up the nose of that bullet, wow. I think I even saw the time on your wrist watch ! :whistling:

Hey , after being so serious about the rest. I had to close being a wize guy !


Great fun test 481. Thanks. Thouhgt ! Do you think a FMJFN would have reacted any differently ?



Thanks amigo ! Good work and good Pic !



CanyonMan

Glolt20-91
07-12-2010, 15:01
Looking at those numbers, the 124gr FMJ can scratch parts that don't itch. :supergrin:

Are you planning on testing this ammo against barriers like wood and cinder blocks?

I'm a bit curious, what would the penetration distance be with a 147gr FMJ at 1200fps?

Thanks for sharing.

Bob

481
07-12-2010, 16:00
If 9 mil has to be used in combat situations, (and it does in most) this helps folks to understand how having a couple guys lined up in the sights can ruin a BG's day. Good fun test, and one that we do not usually see any where. (that is the FMJ). ;) Expected results, but great reminder of what the 9mm can do with the FMJ stuff.

You did not get wet ? Your kidding man. With half of the worlds clean water supply in those bags and jugs and all the penetration and 'no wet 481' ? :faint: Next time get soaked. It's much more fun hoss ! :supergrin:

Man that journey through the water sure did shine up the nose of that bullet, wow. I think I even saw the time on your wrist watch ! :whistling:

Hey , after being so serious about the rest. I had to close being a wize guy !

Great fun test 481. Thanks. Thouhgt ! Do you think a FMJFN would have reacted any differently ?

Thanks amigo ! Good work and good Pic !

CanyonMan

CM,

Yeah, I'd expect nothing less from you. :animlol:

Hornady used to load a 124 gr. FMJTC (trucated cone) awhile ago. Haven't seen that load in what feels like eons. Don't know if Hornady is still loading it. If I am not mistaken, it (the 124 FMJTC) was the original bullet design in the 9x19.

If the bullet had been a 124 gr. FMJTC at that velocity (1118.50 fps) and suffered no deformation, the MacPherson penetration model predicts 31.906 inches of penetration (Xin) with a permanent wound cavity mass (Mw) of 34.839 grams.

Many will find the increased penetration of a FMJTC over that of the FMJRN to be a counter-intuitive result, but the flat (perpendicular to the force vector) surface at the nose of the bullet depresses the cavitation threshold (Vc) which actually reduces the deccelerative force throughout the bullet's travel through the soft solid flow, which in turn, permits an FMJTC of equal mass (and diameter) at the same velocity to penetrate further than its FMJRN counterpart.


:)

481
07-12-2010, 16:29
Looking at those numbers, the 124gr FMJ can scratch parts that don't itch. :supergrin:

And on the guy after him, and after him, and after him and so on and so on...


Are you planning on testing this ammo against barriers like wood and cinder blocks?

Well, as I mentioned sometime ago in a long distant post, I plan on shooting against cold rolled sheet steel but, I am not sure if it'll be 1.0mm or 1.5mm sheet yet. Depends upon what I can lay my hands. Probably shoot some wood, too. Cinder blocks might be a possibility but, the fact that they often shatter when hit (even by a "lowly" .22LR) makes obtaining some sort of metric kinda "iffy". We'll see.


I'm a bit curious, what would the penetration distance be with a 147gr FMJ at 1200fps?

Thanks for sharing.

Bob

Xin would be 39.349 inches for a 9mm 147 gr. FMJTC @ 1200 fps; Mw = 42.966 grams

By way of comparison...

Xin would be 31.427 inches for a 9mm (the NATO loading) 124 gr. FMJRN @ 1250 fps; Mw = 36.335 grams


:)

481
07-13-2010, 11:37
........

CanyonMan
07-13-2010, 14:27
Bob, CM,

Your last posts caused me to start thinking about the use of FMJs and the debates that surround their use, y'know....9mm v. .45ACP...."should I carry FMJ or JHP"...."which will penetrate more; the 9, 40 or .45", etc, etc, etc.

So, for the sake of comparison (against the tests run here and in Bob's thread) I ran the numbers (penetration, Xin, and permanent wound cavity mass, Mw ) for those FMJs and their weights in their respective calibers.

I found the results to be rather enlightening...


9mm 115 gr. FMJRN @ 1155 fps
Mw = 32.234 grams
Xin = 27.880 inches

9mm 124 gr. FMJRN @ 1120 fps
Mw = 34.142 grams
Xin = 29.531 inches

9mm 124 gr. FMJRN (M882) @ 1250 fps
Mw = 36.335 grams
Xin = 31.427 inches

9mm 147 gr. FMJTC @ 975 fps
Mw = 38.051 grams
Xin = 34.848 inches



.40 S&W 155 gr. FMJTC @ 1150 fps
Mw = 45.122 grams
Xin = 32.346 inches

.40 S&W 165 gr. FMJTC @ 1125 fps
Mw = 47.450 grams
Xin = 34.014 inches

.40 S&W 180 gr. FMJTC @ 975 fps
Mw = 47.616 grams
Xin = 34.133 inches



.45ACP 230 gr. FMJRN @ 850 fps
Mw = 55.615 grams
Xin = 29.626 inches


All of these FMJ configurations are capable of producing tremendous Xin. Mw is relatively low when the depth of penetration is taken into consideration. When the proportion of Mw/Xin is considered, the JHPs (as tested in this and the "Furniture v. Bullet Penetration" thread) demonstrate a superior ability to produce considerably more soft tissue damage per unit distance traveled than their FMJ counterparts.

Unless reliability or law constrains one to the use of FMJs, JHPs are probably the best bet, but we all knew that already, didn't we?


:)



Hey pretty cool amigo ! Never saw it laid out like this before. Those penetration numbers are very impressive, but now what am I going to do with my beloved 230gr ball in the M1911 45acp ?

Am I going to have to change from the mag on the LEFT, to the mag on the RIGHT ? :faint: :crying:

http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab256/yrag5951/GT%20stuff/0530001041a.jpg


Me thinks, only sometimes ! :supergrin:


Thanks for a really cool breakdown of the different caliber ball ammo ! Good job. Some one is going to have to do more FMJ (in diff cals) testing like you did on the 9mm. That was good man. ;)


Thanks amigo



CanyonMan

481
07-13-2010, 20:55
Hey pretty cool amigo ! Never saw it laid out like this before. Those penetration numbers are very impressive, but now what am I going to do with my beloved 230gr ball in the M1911 45acp ?

Am I going to have to change from the mag on the LEFT, to the mag on the RIGHT ? :faint:

http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab256/yrag5951/GT%20stuff/0530001041a.jpg

Me thinks, only sometimes !

Thanks for a really cool breakdown of the different caliber ball ammo ! Good job. Some one is going to have to do more FMJ (in diff cals) testing like you did on the 9mm. That was good man. ;)

Thanks amigo

CanyonMan


CM,

I think that either ammo selection in your hands is a winner so long as you are prepared (to perform and for the consequences that will undoubtedly follow) and can place your rounds into "anatomy that matters".

The mention of the 9mm in your prior post as used in military applications is what got the gears turning. Glad you enjoyed the layout of the information. :winkie:

I had never thought to run this brief comparative analysis until this and as I did so, it became evident that I oughtta throw in some of the other commercially available FMJs in other calibers for a little perspective.

The U.S. military, having gone from the .45 230 gr. FMJ to the 9mm 124 gr. FMJ (M882), definitely took a "step down" for an FMJ that offers 34.67% less in terms of Mw over the same penetration distance. (within one tenth of an inch, see above)

When it comes to employing an FMJ design, cross-sectional area is all you have to work with and losing even a little bit really diminishes terminal performance.

I still like the 9mm (alot), but this really clarified the differences. (at least for me) :supergrin:

CanyonMan
07-13-2010, 21:03
CM,

I think that either ammo selection in your hands is a winner so long as you are prepared (to perform and for the consequences that will undoubtedly follow) and can place your rounds into "anatomy that matters".

The mention of the 9mm in your prior post as used in military applications is what got the gears turning. Glad you enjoyed the layout of the information. :winkie:

I had never thought to run this brief comparative analysis until this and as I did so, it became evident that I oughtta throw in some of the other commercially available FMJs in other calibers for a little perspective.

The U.S. military, having gone from the .45 230 gr. FMJ to the 9mm 124 gr. FMJ (M882), definitely took a "step down" for an FMJ that offers 34.67% less in terms of Mw over the same penetration distance. (within one tenth of an inch, see above)

When it comes to employing an FMJ design, cross-sectional area is all you have to work with and losing even a little bit really diminishes terminal performance.

I still like the 9mm (alot), but this really clarified the differences. (at least for me) :supergrin:


Yes sir. Recieved, and completely understood ! ;) :wavey:

Very goood Mi Amigo ! Very good !



Blessings !




CanyonMan

Glolt20-91
07-14-2010, 11:07
Bob, CM,

Your last posts caused me to start thinking about the use of FMJs and the debates that surround their use, y'know....9mm v. .45ACP...."should I carry FMJ or JHP"...."which will penetrate more; the 9, 40 or .45", etc, etc, etc.

So, for the sake of comparison (against the tests run here and in Bob's thread) I ran the numbers (penetration, Xin, and permanent wound cavity mass, Mw ) for those FMJs and their weights in their respective calibers.

I found the results to be rather enlightening...


9mm 115 gr. FMJRN @ 1155 fps
Mw = 32.234 grams
Xin = 27.880 inches

9mm 124 gr. FMJRN @ 1120 fps
Mw = 34.142 grams
Xin = 29.531 inches

9mm 124 gr. FMJRN (M882) @ 1250 fps
Mw = 36.335 grams
Xin = 31.427 inches

9mm 147 gr. FMJTC @ 975 fps
Mw = 38.051 grams
Xin = 34.848 inches



.40 S&W 155 gr. FMJTC @ 1150 fps
Mw = 45.122 grams
Xin = 32.346 inches

.40 S&W 165 gr. FMJTC @ 1125 fps
Mw = 47.450 grams
Xin = 34.014 inches

.40 S&W 180 gr. FMJTC @ 975 fps
Mw = 47.616 grams
Xin = 34.133 inches



.45ACP 230 gr. FMJRN @ 850 fps
Mw = 55.615 grams
Xin = 29.626 inches


All of these FMJ configurations are capable of producing tremendous Xin. Mw is relatively low when the depth of penetration is taken into consideration. When the proportion of Mw/Xin is considered, the JHPs (as tested in this and the "Furniture v. Bullet Penetration" thread) demonstrate a superior ability to produce considerably more soft tissue damage per unit distance traveled than their FMJ counterparts.

Unless reliability or law constrains one to the use of FMJs, JHPs are probably the best bet, but we all knew that already, didn't we?


:)

A lot of good work you've posted here. :thumbsup:

IIRC, wasn't the British .455 Webley loaded with a 265gr lead round nose bullet at around 650fps? When I was very young, someone my dad knew had one of these big heavy monsters, still remember holding it. It supposedly had an excellent battlefield reputation for stopping the enemy.

Another historical caliber was the Super .38 Auto that had an excellent reputation for penetrating car doors, supposedly present at the demise of Bonnie & Clyde and carried by Texas Ranger Frank Hamer, IIRC. Present era ammo is watered down, for whatever reason, and is not loaded to the original specs of 130gr FMJ at 1300fps.

Cool 'stuff' here. :supergrin:

Bob :cowboy:

481
07-14-2010, 15:17
........

481
07-16-2010, 10:09
......

BadAndy
07-16-2010, 10:54
Two thumbs up for 481! Man, you do some amazing work that is probably a lot of fun at the same time. Thanks!!

481
07-16-2010, 11:42
Two thumbs up for 481! Man, you do some amazing work that is probably a lot of fun at the same time. Thanks!!

You're welcome, Andy. :wavey:

Glad that you liked it. That's why I do this stuff. Always something to be learned and this test didn't disappoint.

Yeah, it is one helluva lot of fun. Although making the test shots is really enjoyable, I look forward equally to getting back home, shooting the photos you see above and doing the analysis.

Math/Science geek, can't help myself. :whistling:

Glolt20-91
07-17-2010, 16:03
Nice performance from the Win 115gr JHPs. Looks like Winchester did their homework designing this bullet, nice expansion given its sectional density plus its hoop tension kept the bullet from blowing up/jacket separation.

Apparently there is a retail backlog with this ammo. :crying:

Bob :cowboy:

BrokenArrow
07-18-2010, 11:54
Nifty stuff! Fun, isn't it?

FWIW the Win 115 JHP bullet used in the USA load (USA9JHP) is the same bullet they use in the Ranger line at std pressure (RA9MMJHP) and +P+ pressure (RA9115HP+). The same bullet w a different colored jacket is used in the Super-X line and called the Silvertip (X9MMSHP). Hasn't changed in over 20 yrs. The FBI issue load that "failed" in Miami and lead to the FBI adopting the Win 147 JHP and then the Fed 147 HS and now the Win 147 Bonded for 9mm duty loads.

Ditto the 147 JHP: USA9JHP2 and X9MMST147. According to P. Nowak, Win LE ammo rep, they are the same bullets, different color jackets, same performance at the same velocity, different price points. Isn't marketing wonderful?

FBI test results for some of the loads mentioned in above posts:

40 round/8 test avg pen/exp/success rate (% at least 12 inches):

115 Win JHP 11.4/.54/35% (14 of 40)
147 Win JHP 14/.46/62.5% (25 of 40)
147 Fed HS 17.2/.51/82.5% (33 of 40)
125/357 SIG Speer GD 15.7/.55/100%

FBI heavy cloth, 5 round avgs:

115 Win JHP 11.8/.58
147 Win JHP 18.1/.47
147 Fed HS 14.9/.57
147 Win Bonded JHP 15.8/.58
147 Hornady XTP 20.5/.46 (918 fps)
124 Hornady XTP 18.3/.46 (1123 fps)
125/357S GD 17.3/.51

357 SIG XTPs in bare gel from from P226:

124 XTP 14.5/.55 (frag) (1352 fps)
147 XTP 16.2/.58 (1190 fps)

As usual, your guns, ammo, and test media may differ. Your bad guy sure will! :supergrin:

481
07-18-2010, 20:10
Nice performance from the Win 115gr JHPs. Looks like Winchester did their homework designing this bullet, nice expansion given its sectional density plus its hoop tension kept the bullet from blowing up/jacket separation.

Apparently there is a retail backlog with this ammo. :crying:

Bob :cowboy:

Bob,

I am really impressed with this bullet's performance. It did surprisingly well, underlying its "economy" labelling. Now I know why it is so danged hard to find. Sheeesh.

I did "luck into" a few hundred rounds (450) at a nearby shop, but that'll have to do until either Winchester catches up or I am smiled upon by the "Gods of Ammunition Shipping & Availability". Cleaned them out and was told that the next shipment arrival was "unknown". Drat!

481
07-18-2010, 20:24
Nifty stuff! Fun, isn't it?

FWIW the Win 115 JHP bullet used in the USA load (USA9JHP) is the same bullet they use in the Ranger line at std pressure (RA9MMJHP) and +P+ pressure (RA9115HP+). The same bullet w a different colored jacket is used in the Super-X line and called the Silvertip (X9MMSHP). Hasn't changed in over 20 yrs. The FBI issue load that "failed" in Miami and lead to the FBI adopting the Win 147 JHP and then the Fed 147 HS and now the Win 147 Bonded for 9mm duty loads.

Ditto the 147 JHP: USA9JHP2 and X9MMST147. According to P. Nowak, Win LE ammo rep, they are the same bullets, different color jackets, same performance at the same velocity, different price points. Isn't marketing wonderful?

FBI test results for some of the loads mentioned in above posts:

40 round/8 test avg pen/exp/success rate (% at least 12 inches):

115 Win JHP 11.4/.54/35% (14 of 40)
147 Win JHP 14/.46/62.5% (25 of 40)
147 Fed HS 17.2/.51/82.5% (33 of 40)
125/357 SIG Speer GD 15.7/.55/100%

FBI heavy cloth, 5 round avgs:

115 Win JHP 11.8/.58
147 Win JHP 18.1/.47
147 Fed HS 14.9/.57
147 Win Bonded JHP 15.8/.58
147 Hornady XTP 20.5/.46 (918 fps)
124 Hornady XTP 18.3/.46 (1123 fps)
125/357S GD 17.3/.51

357 SIG XTPs in bare gel from from P226:

124 XTP 14.5/.55 (frag) (1352 fps)
147 XTP 16.2/.58 (1190 fps)

As usual, your guns, ammo, and test media may differ. Your bad guy sure will! :supergrin:

BrokenArrow,

Yeah, running these tests has been a blast. (pun very much intended)

Thank you for compiling all of the data above.

Really adds to what I am attempting here and it is interesting to see how my results and analysis compares to FBI test protocols data that you've listed above.

I, CM, Glolt20-91 and Merkavaboy had a thread going a while back (by another OP, can't remember who it was off the top of my head, but a search will bring it up no doubt) that addressed the issue of the Winchester USA projectiles commonality with the Super-X Silvertip line. CM also has a friend within Winchester that provided a ton of information about the bullets used in that line.

Thanks again for the contribution. Much appreciated! :supergrin:

BrokenArrow
07-19-2010, 01:51
Think I found it, added my dos centavos.

For more "peas in a pod", look at the 155g .40S&W Silvertip and the 155g Ranger JHP, the 125g 38 Auto +P Silvertip, 125g 9x23 Silvertip, and USA 125g 357 SIG JHP? :supergrin:

481
07-19-2010, 09:39
I have seen some, but not a lot of data for those calibers.

Since I own none of those calibers their performance tends to be more of an academic interest for me than one of practicality, but it is interesting nonetheless. At the time being, all of my pistols are presently calibered in 9mm and .45ACP.

Glolt20-91 has a deep interest in the .38 Super and I believe that he has made at least one test shot with the 125 grain Silvertip. Off of the top of my head, I believe it did quite well. Have to look at his thread to refresh my memory though.

Glolt20-91
07-19-2010, 11:36
Think I found it, added my dos centavos.

For more "peas in a pod", look at the 155g .40S&W Silvertip and the 155g Ranger JHP, the 125g 38 Auto +P Silvertip, 125g 9x23 Silvertip, and USA 125g 357 SIG JHP? :supergrin:

Winchester really stokes the 9x23mm/125gr ST, 1500fps and around 50,000psi from factory ammo. I wish Winchester offered the 125gr ST as a component, but they don't.

While the 125gr ST is loaded down for the .38Super (I can achieve ~1500fps 125gr XTP/N105 powder) at only 1240fps; it achieved terminal performance from the Midway review;
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=882319

Date posted: 11/15/2008

3 years ago I was in a hold up and had to use my Les Baer custom 1911 to defend myself as well as others. This is the only hollow point that I could find for the gun and I feel it saved the life of the young woman behind the counter. The man happened to be her ex and she believed he was there to kill her and make it look like a robbery. If I sat back and left that gun in the car or never applied for a Colorado concealed weapons permit I believe that young girl as well as any witnesses that could have identified him would be dead. I put my life behind this round and it worked. I will never carry anything else.

These are the Win 147gr JHP numbers 481 referred to, also his generous compilations, plus my on the property, desert carry 125gr XTP for comparison:

Winchester (USA) 9mm 147 gr. JHP

Impact Velocity: 1150 fps
Kinetic Energy: 431.598 fpe
Power: 357.026 kW
Recovered weight: 147(+) grains
Recovered average diameter: 0.675 inch

MacPherson Model Parameters
Cavitation Boundary (Vc) = 393.235 feet per second
Permanent Wound Cavity Mass (Mw) = 46.059 grams (1.625 ounces)
Penetration Depth (Xin) = 11.309 inches (28.725 cm)

Winchester 9mm 147 gr. Silvertip JHP

Impact Velocity: 1150 fps
Kinetic Energy: 431.605 fpe
Power: 252.294 kW
Recovered weight: 142.9 grains
Recovered average diameter: 0.648 inch

MacPherson Model Parameters
Cavitation Boundary (Vc) = 394.634 feet per second
Permanent Wound Cavity Mass (Mw) = 44.703 grams (1.577 ounces)
Penetration Depth (Xin) = 29.982 cm (11.804 inches)
Gelatin-to-water penetration ratio: 1 : 1.652


The 147gr XTP blew up at the same MV;

Hornady 9mm 147 gr. XTP JHP

Impact Velocity: 1151 fps
Recovered weight: 125.1 grains
Recovered average diameter: 0.580 inch

Cavitation Boundary (Vc) = 411.543 feet per second
Permanent Wound Cavity Mass (Mw) = 38.412 grams (1.355 ounces)
Penetration Depth (Xcm) = 31.788 cm (12.515 inches)

Gelatin-to-water penetration ratio: 1 : 2.477


A .357mag design bullet at .357mag velocities, light recoil from a 1911;

.38 Super 125 gr. XTP JHP
Impact velocity: 1491 fps
Average recovered diameter: 0.546"

Vcav = 419.069 fps
Mw = 42.009 grams (1.482 ounces)
Xcm = 39.030 cm (15.366 inches)


The Silvertips (500 count) were on sale at Midway so I bought them since they're cheaper than Gold Dots, now only 100 count boxes are on sale;

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=1390169313

I have some 125gr XPBs to test in .38Super. :supergrin:

Bob :cowboy:

BrokenArrow
07-19-2010, 13:49
Years ago there used to be a web page called Ammolab. When they were testing some 357 SIG loads in Glocks they had a kB case failure w some Hornady ammo. The 147 XTP blasted through the screens at over 1800 fps and when it hit the gel it fragmented violently.

Sanow bare gel tested the 9x23 125 ST in 1996 and got 10.8/.52 (fragmented) at 1450 fps.

Metcalf bare gel tested the 9x23 125 ST in 1997 and got 11/.61 at 1463 fps.

Glolt20-91
07-19-2010, 15:29
Years ago there used to be a web page called Ammolab. When they were testing some 357 SIG loads in Glocks they had a kB case failure w some Hornady ammo. The 147 XTP blasted through the screens at over 1800 fps and when it hit the gel it fragmented violently.

Sanow bare gel tested the 9x23 125 ST in 1996 and got 10.8/.52 (fragmented) at 1450 fps.

Metcalf bare gel tested the 9x23 125 ST in 1997 and got 11/.61 at 1463 fps.

Not good penetration numbers, do you know what the recovered core weight was?

The most violent handgun bullet I've tested so far has been .44mag/210gr Silvertip at 1570fps.

Bob :cowboy:

CanyonMan
07-19-2010, 19:31
Well, it is no secret I been gona a while, and will only now be in and out as I can. Just wanted to say excellent work and post, and pics, and info 481 !

Wow even saw flash backs of day gone by on the WWB 147gr JHP's ! :cool:

Good work ! Thanks as well for your thoughts toward us at present. ;)


Broken Arrow, good to see your still around man !



Later amigo's



CM

481
07-20-2010, 09:52
Well, it is no secret I been gona a while, and will only now be in and out as I can. Just wanted to say excellent work and post, and pics, and info 481 !

Wow even saw flash backs of day gone by on the WWB 147gr JHP's ! :cool:

Good work ! Thanks as well for your thoughts toward us at present. ;)


Broken Arrow, good to see your still around man !



Later amigo's



CM

CM,

Glad you're back. Drop in when you can and enjoy.

Drop ya line in a bit and we can catch up.

The Winchester USA 9mm 115 gr. JHP is a bit of a surprise ain't it? You know that for a guy like me who favors the "heavy for caliber" stuff, me bein' as impressed as I am by this stuff almost borders on heresy.

See what happens when you leave me to my own mischief? :supergrin:

BadAndy
07-20-2010, 11:24
Those Winchester 115gr JHPs do look pretty decent and Midway had a pretty good price on them for reloading, last I checked.

Edit - They're out of stock though :( Man, they just had a bunch in stock about 2 weeks ago!

481
07-20-2010, 13:35
Those Winchester 115gr JHPs do look pretty decent and Midway had a pretty good price on them for reloading, last I checked.

Edit - They're out of stock though :( Man, they just had a bunch in stock about 2 weeks ago!

Andy,

Ain't this horrible?

I get you all revved up over a round by testing it like this and then there is none to be found once you are all ready to go. You'd almost think that I enjoy torturing foks like this. (I don't)

Hopefully, Winchester'll catch up soon and you can get a few bags of 'em.

This load's performance really caught me by surprise and now I am kickin' myself for not having had the mind to secure more of it than I have in the past.

Good luck, man.

BadAndy
07-20-2010, 14:27
It surprised me just as much. I always figured it was bottom of the barrel stuff but it looks quite impressive.

I can stand to wait a while for it to come back in stock since I just got a couple boxes of 147gr XTPs.

Have you ever done this kind of testing on the generic Remington JHP?

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=1601278887

481
07-20-2010, 21:02
It surprised me just as much. I always figured it was bottom of the barrel stuff but it looks quite impressive.

I can stand to wait a while for it to come back in stock since I just got a couple boxes of 147gr XTPs.

Have you ever done this kind of testing on the generic Remington JHP?

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=1601278887



Haven't had the chance to test that one yet. Occasionally, I do run across the Remington 9mm 115 gr. JHP (as fully loaded ammo) at a nearby shop and if they happen to have it available, I'll make sure to grab a box.

I am always interested in testing the big name manufacturer economy ammo lines since there seems to be an almost cult following (lousy economy has a lot to do with it I am sure) of it.

About to round out the 9mm and move on for the time being to .45ACP, but that doesn't mean that I won't or am not inclined to 'revisit' the 9mm.

Got another test on deck that I hope to shoot soon, hopefully by the end of this week. (schedule permitting)

I am also still gonna be shooting the 9mm against some construction materials, too. Sheet steel is on the list for sure. Laid hands upon 3 12"x12" sheets of cold rolled 1.5mm sheet today. :supergrin:

Glolt20-91
07-20-2010, 22:29
Haven't had the chance to test that one yet. Occasionally, I do run across the Remington 9mm 115 gr. JHP (as fully loaded ammo) at a nearby shop and if they happen to have it available, I'll make sure to grab a box.

I am always interested in testing the big name manufacturer economy ammo lines since there seems to be an almost cult following (lousy economy has a lot to do with it I am sure) of it.

About to round out the 9mm and move on for the time being to .45ACP, but that doesn't mean that I won't or am not inclined to 'revisit' the 9mm.

Got another test on deck that I hope to shoot soon, hopefully by the end of this week. (schedule permitting)

I am also still gonna be shooting the 9mm against some construction materials, too. Sheet steel is on the list for sure. Laid hands upon 3 12"x12" sheets of cold rolled 1.5mm sheet today. :supergrin:

The Win 147gr JHP does very well penetrating steel at elevated velocities, so does the 9mm when loaded with the 125gr Gold Dot. :supergrin:

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/Barrier125GoldDot9mm-38Super-230-1.jpg

I tested some Rem .40S&W/180gr JHPs some years back and wasn't impressed with the ammo. The bullet deflected off single angled steel at 25 yards, but left a large gray groove in the surface rust.

Also had one bullet land/drop right in front of me, tore down the Steyr to make sure the jacket wasn't stuck in the bore. That's the only time I've experienced a dropped bullet, also, very dirty powder residue.

Bob :cowboy:

481
07-21-2010, 08:45
.............

Glolt20-91
07-22-2010, 13:14
Bob,

Initial plan is to run some 9mm FMJs (115, 124, 147 grains) against the steel sheet and measure velocity prior to and after penetration of the sheet thereby permitting me to determine the amount of energy (J), momentum (ft-lb/sec) and power (J/s) expended in the penetration of the steel sheet.

Probably move to .45ACP 230 and 185 FMJs after that and if this proves a feasible pursuit, then onto assorted JHPs of various weights. Found a good source for the 1.5mm (0.059") sheet and obtaining it isn't a problem should I desire it for further testing.

I've also got a handle on some "energy absorbing" concrete barrier media that should eliminate the issue of shattering (as presented by the cinder blocks) since I am looking for actual penetration depths against that media.

Wood shouldn't be a problem either. Just gotta build a rig that'll absorb and completely bring to a halt any round that I launch at it. Plan on measuring pre-impact velocity and measuring final penetration depths.

Still up in the air over testing against sheetrock since we are all quite aware of handgun ammunition's ability to penetrate many, many layers of it without stopping. Add to it the whopping mess involved and I am less than enthusiastic :ack: about the proposition in almost every imaginable form.

:)

Maybe we can come up with some bleached out range cattle bones for you to shoot up. :supergrin:

Bob :cowboy:

481
07-22-2010, 13:47
Maybe we can come up with some bleached out range cattle bones for you to shoot up. :supergrin:


Been standing in the Arizona sun for too long without a hat again?

:)


Y'know, I've actually been thinking about such a test. Perhaps I can talk to the guy at the meat counter the next time that I am at the grocery store and get something wide and flat like a shoulder blade or something.

Sheesh, so many test ideas and so few hours in the week to shoot 'em up. :crying:

Still amazed at the performance of the Win USA 147 gr. JHP against steel sheet. Who'd've ever thought such an inexpensive, "old tech" bullet could be so versatile?



.

CanyonMan
07-22-2010, 14:51
Been standing in the Arizona sun for too long without a hat again?

:)


Y'know, I've actually been thinking about such a test. Perhaps I can talk to the guy at the meat counter the next time that I am at the grocery store and get something wide and flat like a shoulder blade or something.

Sheesh, so many test ideas and so few hours in the week to shoot 'em up. :crying:

Still amazed at the performance of the Win USA 147 gr. JHP against steel sheet. Who'd've ever thought such an inexpensive, "old tech" bullet could be so versatile?



.




Amigo. Go to the slaughter or packing house in your city, if there is one there. ;) Bob and I could send you a ton of bones, but you can get some good "green ones," from the slughter house. Maybe still a little meat on there ya can chew on before ya get to the range !


As always, wishing you the best ! :supergrin:



CM

481
07-22-2010, 15:29
Thanks (I think :headscratch: ), CM. :supergrin:

I have the Winchester 9mm 147 gr. PDX1 JHP (bonded) "on deck" and ready for testing tomorrow. Looking forward to it as I have very high expectations for this new "premium" design. S'posed to meet/exceed the FBI test protocols.

Here's hoping that it does not disappoint.

BlutoBlutarsky
07-22-2010, 15:29
I think I may have to build one of those Fackler boxes. I've been testing a few loads through the wet pack milk jugs but the zip lock baggies would be easier. Great work on the testing and great thread.

CanyonMan
07-22-2010, 15:55
Thanks (I think :headscratch: ), CM. :supergrin:

I have the Winchester 9mm 147 gr. PDX1 JHP (bonded) "on deck" and ready for testing tomorrow. Looking forward to it as I have very high expectations for this new "premium" design. S'posed to meet/exceed the FBI test protocols.

Here's hoping that it does not disappoint.


Man I love it when I get to ya this way... :tongueout:

Good luck with the WW 147gr PDX1 tomorrow ! I bet it does real well !


Looking forward to it.


Later Amigo !




CanyonMan

481
07-22-2010, 16:07
........

481
07-22-2010, 16:22
Man I love it when I get to ya this way... :tongueout:

Good luck with the WW 147gr PDX1 tomorrow ! I bet it does real well !

Looking forward to it.

Later Amigo !

CanyonMan

Sure. Yeah. That's alright.

Gotta FEDEX overnight package headed your way.

When you get it just go ahead and shake it real hard for a couple of minutes and then rip it open real fast. Don't mind the rattling and movement within. Nothin' to worry about. Just rip 'er right open! :winkie:

Warmest regards,

:supergrin:

Glolt20-91
07-22-2010, 17:19
Thanks (I think :headscratch: ), CM. :supergrin:

I have the Winchester 9mm 147 gr. PDX1 JHP (bonded) "on deck" and ready for testing tomorrow. Looking forward to it as I have very high expectations for this new "premium" design. S'posed to meet/exceed the FBI test protocols.

Here's hoping that it does not disappoint.

Really looking forward to your results and comparing them with the .40/180gr and .45auto/230gr.

Bob :cowboy:

BlutoBlutarsky
07-22-2010, 17:22
Thanks 481, that does make it easier and I think they just juncked some pvc at work so that part may be free . Ive got a way to transport the water and there may be water at my buds land in the near future, plus he has a pond if I get in a bind. I wonder how long I should make it to test my .44mag? I know it doesn't stop for 6 jugs and 2 phone books. At least with a 200gr XTP moving 1648 fps:supergrin:

481
07-22-2010, 17:28
Really looking forward to your results and comparing them with the .40/180gr and .45auto/230gr.

Bob :cowboy:

Same here, Bob.

Kinda stoked over this one. Don't recall the results of your tests right off of the top of my head, but I suspect that this one will be a good one.

Didn't the .45 PDX1 fail to expand or am I confusing it with something else?

481
07-22-2010, 17:39
Thanks 481, that does make it easier and I think they just juncked some pvc at work so that part may be free . Ive got a way to transport the water and there may be water at my buds land in the near future, plus he has a pond if I get in a bind. I wonder how long I should make it to test my .44mag? I know it doesn't stop for 6 jugs and 2 phone books. At least with a 200gr XTP moving 1648 fps:supergrin:

Bluto,

The 'best stuff' is 'free stuff'. :cool:

Sounds as if you've got a good handle on the materials aspect of it and the pond will be a nice resource to have. Empty bags are the easiest (lightest) option and having an on-site water source makes carrying heavy bags to the range a pointless exercise in suffering.

If you are running a load like that (a .44 caliber 200 gr. XTP moving 1648 fps) you are gonna need a lotta runway for that round to decelerate. I'd go a minimum of eight feet (a uncut section measures 8 feet) and you might consider another uncut section after that for a total of sixteen feet. That oughtta bring to rest just about anything that you can throw at it and if it won't......well......then....it's time to add a third. :winkie:

Once you do that you have got to start a thread and keep us updated!

Lemme know if you need any further guidance or suggestions. Always here to help.

:)

Glolt20-91
07-22-2010, 17:51
Same here, Bob.

Kinda stoked over this one. Don't recall the results of your tests right off of the top of my head, but I suspect that this one will be a good one.

Didn't the .45 PDX1 fail to expand or am I confusing it with something else?

Yeah, the 230gr PDX failed to expand through sheetrock, but did well in the bags.

Winchester .40S&W 180 gr. PDX1 JHP
Impact velocity: 1080 fps
Recovered weight: 180 gr.
Average recovered diameter: 0.609"

Vcav = 405.563 fps
Mw = 52.229 grams (1.842 ounces)
Xcm = 39.008 cm (15.357 inches)

++++++++++++++++++

.45ACP Winchester Bonded PDX1 230 gr. JHP
Impact velocity: 889 fps
Average recovered diameter: 0.680"

Vcav = 392.366 fps
Mw = 62.603 grams (2.208 ounces)
Xcm = 36.748 cm (14.468 inches)



I'm anticipating some good numbers from the 147gr PDX.

Bob :cowboy:

CanyonMan
07-22-2010, 18:01
Sure. Yeah. That's alright.

Gotta FEDEX overnight package headed your way.

When you get it just go ahead and shake it real hard for a couple of minutes and then rip it open real fast. Don't mind the rattling and movement within. Nothin' to worry about. Just rip 'er right open! :winkie:

Warmest regards,

:supergrin:



Man, rattling sounds I am used to. I hope what's in the pakage is alive so I can kill it with a mesquite stick ! :supergrin:


Looking forward to the test. Again, I do believe it will show very good results. ;)


Later Amigo !




CM

Glolt20-91
07-22-2010, 22:21
Sure. Yeah. That's alright.

Gotta FEDEX overnight package headed your way.

When you get it just go ahead and shake it real hard for a couple of minutes and then rip it open real fast. Don't mind the rattling and movement within. Nothin' to worry about. Just rip 'er right open! :winkie:

Warmest regards,

:supergrin:

Are they spurs to go with CM's dancing outfit, sure liked those boots. :rofl:

Bob :cowboy:

CanyonMan
07-23-2010, 08:50
Are they spurs to go with CM's dancing outfit, sure liked those boots. :rofl:

Bob :cowboy:



Ya like these ?


http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab256/yrag5951/GT%20stuff/0723000933.jpg




:tongueout:





CM

481
07-23-2010, 15:21
...........

CanyonMan
07-23-2010, 16:00
This round is widely rumored to be the Winchester Ranger 9mm 147 gr. Bonded JHP (RA9B) in commercial packaging and judging from the pictures below it sure does look an awful lot like it. The radial scoring on the expansion face of the recovered round appears to be identical to every example of the RA9B that I've seen tested.

Date: 23July2010

Ammunition: <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:City><st1:place>Winchester</st1:place></st1:City> Bonded 9mm 147 gr. PDX1 JHP (S9MMPDB1)

<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p>A side view of the recovered round (radial scoring is clearly visible on expansion face):</o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p>http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y301/CharlesSchwartz/100_2348.jpg</o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>

A top view of the recovered bullet's expansion face (note radial scoring on the surface of the expanded round):

http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y301/CharlesSchwartz/100_2352.jpg


Test Platform: Glock 17<o:p></o:p>
Barrel Length: 4.49 inches<o:p></o:p>
Caliber: 9x19<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Barrier: 4 layers of 1 ounce cotton T-shirt fabric<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Test Media: Water<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Muzzle Velocity: 1011 feet per second<o:p></o:p>
Impact Velocity: 1006 feet per second<o:p></o:p>
Instrumental Distance: 15 feet from impact face <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Kinetic Energy = 330.274 fpe
Power = 199.847 kW<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Test Distance: 21 feet<o:p></o:p>
Temperature: 80° F<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>

Recovered Projectile Data:<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Average Expanded Diameter: 0.579 inch<o:p></o:p>
Retained Weight: 146.9 grains (99.93%)<o:p></o:p>
Shape Aspect: extremely symmetric, stellate expansion face with centered radial scoring<o:p></o:p>
Total Length: 0.477 inch
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
MacPherson Penetration Model Analysis:

Cavitation Boundary (Vc) = 411.827 feet per second
Permanent Wound Cavity Mass (Mw) = 41.906 grams (1.478 ounces)
Penetration Depth (Xin) = 13.525 inches (34.353 cm)
<o:p></o:p>
Actual Water Penetration = 59.69 cm (23.50 inches)<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Gelatin to Water Penetration Conversion Ratio: 1.738


I am very impressed with the performance of this ammunition. Impact was spectacular to say the least. The impact blew the first three water bags off to the side of the test fixture and the remaining bags were moved backwards by the force of the impact. Water everywhere.

Mw is an exceptional 41.906 grams and exceeds the upper bound of MacPherson's recommendation (Mw should be between 30-40 grams) for WTI 'adequacy'. While penetration (Xin) fell just a little short (less than 1/2") of the desired average of 14 inches of penetration we look for, I think that anyone would be hard pressed to condemn this ammunition for such a minor performance deficiency.

This ammunition tends to be a little pricey, but it is well worth it in terms of the potential performance that it offers. Can't go wrong with it, IMO.


:cool:





Excellent test 481 !

The first thing I noticed was the Mw of 41 + grams. Prertty good for a 9mm.

Personally I do not think that 1/2" lack to make the 14" minimum penetration mark means to much here, because I believe it will exceed that next time. Sometimes things happen. :dunno:

The bullet opened well, looks great, and I will add that to my 147gr collection for the 9mm. I went ahead with his big brother in 45acp 230gr PDX1. I am very pleased with it, and I knew this 9mm would be a good round as well, as you have just proved.

I wondered why it looked like rain here today. it is all that big "splash" you made on that first shot ! :supergrin:


It seems these 147 grer's are all proving themselves very well in these test. The WWB 147 gr, and the 147gr XTP, and now this 147gr PDX1, all seem to have what it takes to make for good deep penetrating rounds that hold together, and still open a little as well. I believe the one to stay away from so far is possibly the Barnes round. They are not doing well in the hang gun department.



Good job ! Good photo's. Good report 481 !


Thanks very much !


Bueno, Amigo.




CanyonMan

481
07-23-2010, 16:28
......

Glolt20-91
07-23-2010, 23:38
CM,

Thanks. Glad that you liked this test.

Looks like we have another selection to add to our list of "acceptable" ammunition. :cool:

Finally gettin' the hang of takin' these pictures, too.

Nice pics and nice numbers, hard hitting; sounds good to me. Do you have access to RA9B ammo? I don't know of any agencies in this neck of the woods that carry the 9mm, our SO carries Colt 1911s in .45auto.

For some reason CM sez to watch my six, do you know why he would make such a statement??? :rofl:

Bob :cowboy:

CanyonMan
07-24-2010, 08:11
Nice pics and nice numbers, hard hitting; sounds good to me. Do you have access to RA9B ammo? I don't know of any agencies in this neck of the woods that carry the 9mm, our SO carries Colt 1911s in .45auto.

For some reason CM sez to watch my six, do you know why he would make such a statement??? :rofl:

Bob :cowboy:



With certain bad movies floating around 'although funny as heck,' certain cowboys tend to want to give certain amigo's a Mexican Tattoo (see tattoo maker in post # 165) across the southern border of their six's, thus the warning ! While seeing said video, and laughing, even then, the right leg and boot and spur went on auto pilot, and the spur rowel began spinning violently, looking for said amigo's six to kick. :tongueout:


Play nice Bobby ! :rofl:



buenos dias mi amigo !




CM

481
07-24-2010, 11:44
Nice pics and nice numbers, hard hitting; sounds good to me. Do you have access to RA9B ammo? I don't know of any agencies in this neck of the woods that carry the 9mm, our SO carries Colt 1911s in .45auto.

For some reason CM sez to watch my six, do you know why he would make such a statement??? :rofl:

Bob :cowboy:

ha ha ha ha...yeah, I'd be watchin' my back too after that last video clip. I figure if we both just pick on CM hard enough, he'll decide to seek revenge on us both (you more'n me for that video) and get well just to spite us. Problem is, is that once he gets well, we have to deal with him and this might've awakened his 'ruthless' streak as was evidenced by the re-emergence of CM's restless leg syndrome after viewing that vid clip.

I wonder if he got that FEDEX package yet. Probably made a meal of what he found inside. :animlol:

No access to RA9B for sometime now and have no plans for an ammo order anytime soon. S'pose that it'll just have to keep until that time arrives and maybe I'll be able to find some.

Looking to set up and run the sheet steel penetration tests this next week. Starting out with 9mm FMJs and then we'll see where it goes from there depending upon how impressed I am with myself after running those tests. :supergrin:

Hoping to run 'em early this next week, but scheduling issues have yet to be settled.

BlutoBlutarsky
07-24-2010, 16:19
Well work didn't have any pvc left and HDepot didn't have anything larger than 4" in stock but I'm still going to set it up one way or another. Anyhow I posted some wetpack jug test over on the 357sig club page with 3 different bullets. Seeing how you here, like me are fans of the XTP here is a pic of a 124 gr. at 1308 fps from the factory Hornady Custom load. 4 layers of T-shirt or bare jugs the test is always the same. 3 to 3 1/2 jugs recovered weight around 110 gr.

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=906&pictureid=3396

481
07-24-2010, 17:56
Well work didn't have any pvc left and HDepot didn't have anything larger than 4" in stock but I'm still going to set it up one way or another. Anyhow I posted some wetpack jug test over on the 357sig club page with 3 different bullets. Seeing how you here, like me are fans of the XTP here is a pic of a 124 gr. at 1308 fps from the factory Hornady Custom load. 4 layers of T-shirt or bare jugs the test is always the same. 3 to 3 1/2 jugs recovered weight around 110 gr.

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=906&pictureid=3396

Bluto,

Thanks.

I'll have to have a look at your thread over there.

In the meantime, try a Lowes' if you have one nearby or perhaps a local lumber yard. :dunno: Sometimes they carry 6" and 8" PVC.

One of my favorite "expedients" (when I get really lazy) are those half gallon cardboard cartons that you get orange juice or milk in. Their 'soft' cardboard sides do not interfere with the test round's expansion as much as harder, thicker plastic jug walls might and they yield results so close to the Fackler Trough that it is impossible to distinguish one test bullet from another. They also stand conveniently on their own and present a nice size test face. You'll need at least 8 for JHPs and up to 12 for the really 'tough' designs (like the XTP) depending upon impact velocity.

The only drawback is that they are terribly slow to accumulate unless you drink large amounts of those beverages packaged like that.

:)

CanyonMan
07-25-2010, 12:41
ha ha ha ha...yeah, I'd be watchin' my back too after that last video clip. I figure if we both just pick on CM hard enough, he'll decide to seek revenge on us both (you more'n me for that video) and get well just to spite us. Problem is, is that once he gets well, we have to deal with him and this might've awakened his 'ruthless' streak as was evidenced by the re-emergence of CM's restless leg syndrome after viewing that vid clip.

I wonder if he got that FEDEX package yet. Probably made a meal of what he found inside. :animlol:

No access to RA9B for sometime now and have no plans for an ammo order anytime soon. S'pose that it'll just have to keep until that time arrives and maybe I'll be able to find some.

Looking to set up and run the sheet steel penetration tests this next week. Starting out with 9mm FMJs and then we'll see where it goes from there depending upon how impressed I am with myself after running those tests. :supergrin:

Hoping to run 'em early this next week, but scheduling issues have yet to be settled.



I decide to use my Sunday go to meetin spurs, with some vey pointed rowels for you guys Tatto session. Especially a certain S.W. amigo I know, BUT these rowels fit yankee six's just as well now !

http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab256/yrag5951/GT%20stuff/IG426-1spur2.jpg





I'm watching boys ! :whistling:


Looking forward to your next test my friend, and have been very edified and blessed with all the others you've done. Good work ! Some stuff I'll share later when I can. I came over here today to "test the waters" from yesterday's PC situation..


Adios Amigo !




CanyonMan

481
07-25-2010, 13:10
I decide to use my Sunday go to meetin spurs, with some very pointed rowels for you guys Tatto session. Especially a certain S.W. amigo I know, BUT these rowels fit yankee six's just as well now !

http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab256/yrag5951/GT%20stuff/IG426-1spur2.jpg





I'm watching boys ! :whistling:

Adios Amigo !


CanyonMan


CM,

Ain't skeered! :supergrin:

B'sides, I'd rather have a tattoo party than one o' them 'frilly little tutu parties' y'all are always havin'! There's some crazy stuff goin' on down there, man! Hoooo weeee!

:animlol:

CanyonMan
07-25-2010, 13:52
CM,

Ain't skeered! :supergrin:

B'sides, I'd rather have a tattoo party than one o' them 'frilly little tutu parties' y'all are always havin'! There's some crazy stuff goin' on down there, man! Hoooo weeee!
:animlol:


Nothin crazy goin on here as you can see. I'm just hangin out in the reloading room. :dunno:


http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab256/yrag5951/GT%20stuff/0709001615.jpg


:tongueout:





CM

CanyonMan
07-25-2010, 14:26
Just to make a contribution in pictures here, while we await the next test.

I know 481, you are about to do some FMJ test soon, so I thought I'd toss this in the pot.

Here is a steel plate from a part of an old truck frame work 1/8" thick. The dimple in the center is from a Ranger 9mm 127gr +P+ JHP out of a G17 at 25 yards.


http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab256/yrag5951/GT%20stuff/pics084-1.jpg


This pic is a 124gr 9mm FMJ from a G17 at 25 yds. complete pass through on same plate (upper right corner)


http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab256/yrag5951/GT%20stuff/pics089.jpg


These are 230gr FMJ 45acp from a M1911 Commander through a truck quarter panel. 'EXIT VIEW'

http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab256/yrag5951/GT%20stuff/pics075.jpg


Just thought someone may be interested...

BTW. Yes, the old lawn mower in the pic, and a ton of other things 'NOT seen' in these pics gets shot through and tested and has forever. The whole place down here in the test pit is perforated ! HA! We have 10 ft diameter tanks, and all types of steel, and tons of different wood, and tons of clay, and dead hogs, on and on... If we ain't got it, we find it or build it, then blow it up ! ;)


Later Amigo's




CanyonMan

JBP55
07-25-2010, 14:36
CM, We need a picture of the 1/8" plate shot by the 230gr. 45 FMJ and JHP as you did with the 9mm.

481
07-25-2010, 16:07
Just to make a contribution in pictures here, while we await the next test.

I know 481, you are about to do some FMJ test soon, so I thought I'd toss this in the pot.

Here is a steel plate from a part of an old truck frame work 1/8" thick. The dimple in the center is from a Ranger 9mm 127gr +P+ JHP out of a G17 at 25 yards.


http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab256/yrag5951/GT%20stuff/pics084-1.jpg


This pic is a 124gr 9mm FMJ from a G17 at 25 yds. complete pass through on same plate (upper right corner)


http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab256/yrag5951/GT%20stuff/pics089.jpg


These are 230gr FMJ 45acp from a M1911 Commander through a truck quarter panel. 'EXIT VIEW'

http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab256/yrag5951/GT%20stuff/pics075.jpg


Just thought someone may be interested...

BTW. Yes, the old lawn mower in the pic, and a ton of other things 'NOT seen' in these pics gets shot through and tested and has forever. The whole place down here in the test pit is perforated ! HA! We have 10 ft diameter tanks, and all types of steel, and tons of different wood, and tons of clay, and dead hogs, on and on... If we ain't got it, we find it or build it, then blow it up !


Later Amigo's




CanyonMan

CM,

My, I've never seen you look better or more life-like! :supergrin: Never realized this, but you kinda favor Howdy Doody!

Honestly, sometimes you surprise me. Don't mind one bit you throwin' these pictures into the mix. Kinda confirms (and answers the question that I had in mind) what I was concerned about earlier with the possiblity that JHPs might have a hard time getting through the steel sheet. Startin' with the FMJs and go from there.

I plan on chronographing the fired rounds (simultaneously) both before and after they penetrate the steel sheet and intend to measure the average energy/power expenditure of the rounds as they traverse the sheet. Hoping to get somewhere between 12 and 16 data points per sheet before shots start overlapping and effecting the sheet's resistance (either positively or negatively) to the FMJs.

I hope to get this done near the end of this next week since the first half of my week will be occupied with shooting a Federal qualification course and doing some much needed (legal updates) classwork. Gonna try for Thursday. :winkie:

Awesome post, CM. Almost helps me forget about that tutu video...............Almost. :supergrin:

CanyonMan
07-25-2010, 16:14
CM, We need a picture of the 1/8" plate shot by the 230gr. 45 FMJ and JHP as you did with the 9mm.


Yeah, wish I had one for ya. Afraid you'll have to wait a while. I'm a tad stove up/laid up right now. Those are nice looking holes in the truck bed from the .45 230gr FMJ though uh? ;) That 124gr 9 mil fmj cut through that sucker like a knife through butter.

In fact that day in the 'test pit,' the Ranger 127gr +P+ didn't to very well at all against anything. The lowly 147gr JHP 9mm out ran the pants off the 127+P+. ;)

Maybe 481 here, or Bob on the 'Furniture penetration thread,' can find a metal plate and some FMJ 45's to pop it with for ya. I wished I'd shot that dang plate while I was stanging there with the 45acp in my hand. Just had other things I was shooting at the moment. Ha!

I do not belive the 45 JHP will pass through the plate, but leave a real big dimple. The FMJ ? Well, it is a toss up on that one. I'm going to say RNFP will go through. I'm basing this off all the other stuff I've seen and shot over the years with it. But, :dunno: That is a pretty tuff old piece of steel.

Can't do 'er today amigo. Sorry. Perhaps real soon, and will be interesting. Again, maybe Bob, or 481 can pop one for us. ;)


Stay safe !




CM

CanyonMan
07-25-2010, 16:31
CM,

My, I've never seen you look better or more life-like! :supergrin: Never realized this, but you kinda favor Howdy Doody!

Honestly, sometimes you surprise me. Don't mind one bit you throwin' these pictures into the mix. Kinda confirms (and answers the question that I had in mind) what I was concerned about earlier with the possiblity that JHPs might have a hard time getting through the steel sheet. Startin' with the FMJs and go from there.

I plan on chronographing the fired rounds (simultaneously) both before and after they penetrate the steel sheet and intend to measure the average energy/power expenditure of the rounds as they traverse the sheet. Hoping to get somewhere between 12 and 16 data points per sheet before shots start overlapping and effecting the sheet's resistance (either positively or negatively) to the FMJs.

I hope to get this done near the end of this next week since the first half of my week will be occupied with shooting a Federal qualification course and doing some much needed (legal updates) classwork. Gonna try for Thursday. :winkie:

Awesome post, CM. Almost helps me forget about that tutu video...............Almost. :supergrin:



Well my yankee friend. That is 'Woody', not Howdy Dooty ! :rofl: He has a snake in his boot ! HA!

Glad ya liked the post. I wish I could find some of the other pics, just have not been able to look right now. There are afew around here, not many.

Looking forward to your report on the steel sheet stuff. How thick is the steel your shooting?


Hey wish you all the best on your Federal qualification course shoot ! ;)


UH hum, your getting a little more brazen and wordy about the vid amigo. 'Certain folks' could get the "very wrong idea here." Remember those spur rowles ! OUCH ! :zipmouth: HA!




CM

481
07-25-2010, 17:29
Well my yankee friend. That is 'Woody', not Howdy Dooty ! :rofl: He has a snake in his boot ! HA!

Glad ya liked the post. I wish I could find some of the other pics, just have not been able to look right now. There are afew around here, not many.

Looking forward to your report on the steel sheet stuff. How thick is the steel your shooting?

Hey wish you all the best on your Federal qualification course shoot ! ;)

UH hum, your getting a little more brazen and wordy about the vid amigo. 'Certain folks' could get the "very wrong idea here." Remember those spur rowles ! OUCH ! :zipmouth: HA!

CM


CM,

Thanks.

Yeah, I know it's "Woody". Just givin' you guff with reference to a timeframe that you are also likely to recall.

I have 1.5mm (0.059") steel sheet for the tests. Cleaned it off and coated it with a very thin (trace) layer of CLP. Ready to go.

CanyonMan
07-25-2010, 18:16
CM,

Thanks.

Yeah, I know it's "Woody". Just givin' you guff with reference to a timeframe that you are also likely to recall.


I have 1.5mm (0.059") steel sheet for the tests. Cleaned it off and coated it with a very thin (trace) layer of CLP. Ready to go.


Oh I recall ole Howdy alright :fred: Ha!


Sounds good. Looking forward to it. I'll be out tomorrow, and 'could be' for a while, depending on how things go in the morning et...


Have fun mi amigo !



CanyonMan

ColCol
07-28-2010, 20:04
I wondered whee Buzz was but I'll bet he was out shooting some of them 127 gr+P+ through his G23.:supergrin:

481
07-28-2010, 21:52
I wondered whee Buzz was but I'll bet he was out shooting some of them 127 gr+P+ through his G23.:supergrin:

Actually, that's what CM and I call Glolt20-91 (Bob) since he likes the high velocity stuff and seems to have a never ending obsession with trying to turn various bullet designs inside-out at high speed.


:)

481
10-24-2010, 15:12
.....

481
10-24-2010, 15:37
.......

481
10-24-2010, 15:59
........

481
10-24-2010, 16:36
......

CanyonMan
10-24-2010, 16:43
Very good work 481, and a very interesting way of "setting up." Test results are impressive as well IMO with all 3 loads here getting very good penetration after barrier pass through. I agree with you, and say that is so correct that the sub sonics will do a far better job (the 147gr in this case) than folks give them credit for.

I realize this was FMJ fodder here, but even so, the test encourage me even more, to know what these rounds are truly capable of when this type ammunition is needed for a specific task or purpose. ;)

If you mentioed it I did not catch it, but as you and I have spoke on the phone about the 124gr FMJ NATO, was this NATO or some other FMJ in the 124gr test?

Again, very impressed with your set up using the two chrony's. Your photography BTW, has gotten very good as well. ;)

Good to see this thread back and I hope you will be able to do some more test, as I know how busy you been, but perhaps time will allow.

Any Way ! Very Good Job amigo ! :thumbsup:





CanyonMan

CanyonMan
10-24-2010, 16:49
This test was performed after I became curious about how my favorite SD round, the Hornady 9mm 147 grain XTP JHP, would behave if it encountered a dense, semi-resilent building material.

Date: 05August2010
Test Platform: Glock 17<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
Barrel Length: 4.49 inches<o:p></o:p>
Caliber: 9x19<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Barrier: None<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Test media: Rubberized (cast) concrete energy absorbing barrier material<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Impact Velocity: 1000 feet per second<o:p></o:p>
Kinetic Energy = 442.472 Joules<o:p></o:p>
Average Power = 2.4987 MW<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Test Distance: 10 feet (3.05m)<o:p></o:p>
Temperature: 75° F<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>


Lateral Aspect:

http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y301/CharlesSchwartz/100_2427.jpg


Frontal Aspect:

http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y301/CharlesSchwartz/100_2429.jpg

Bottom Aspect:

http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y301/CharlesSchwartz/100_2430.jpg


Recovered Projectile Data:<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Average Expanded Diameter:<o:p></o:p>
#1- 0.643 inch<o:p></o:p>
#2 0.612 inch<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Retained Weight:<o:p></o:p>
#1- 146.4 grains (99.59%)<o:p></o:p>
#2- 146.5 grains (99.66%)<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Total Length:<o:p></o:p>
#1- 0.471 inch<o:p></o:p>
#2- 0.550 inch<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Penetration Depth:<o:p></o:p>
#1- 1.125 inch <o:p></o:p>
#2- 1.000 inch<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Shape Aspect:<o:p></o:p>
deformed spheroid expansion face with very heavy pitting

:cool:<o:p></o:p>




NO BG is going to have a chest this hard ! haha. I do like those 147gr XTP's. Have a good stash loaded up a little warmer than normal... :whistling:




Nice



CM

481
10-24-2010, 16:59
CM,

Thanks. Glad you liked the tests.

The 9mm 124 grain FMJ test round used in the test above was the Federal 9mm 124 gr. FMJ.

Although I currently carry a Glock 17 loaded with (Winchester manufactured) NATO M882 (9mm 124 gr. FMJ) in my current 'assignment' due to certain 'environmental' concerns, :winkie: I am of the belief that it would perform adequately (if not, nearly identically) within a similar environment/barrier.

Here's hoping that my schedule continues to permit such "discretionary" time expenditures. (I'm not holding my breath) :upeyes:

I'll try to give you a call later on this week. :)

unit1069
10-24-2010, 17:54
Thanks for the test photos and comments, 481.

Excellent job

481
10-24-2010, 18:32
Thanks for the test photos and comments, 481.

Excellent job

Thanks for the kind words. You are welcome. :)

481
10-24-2010, 19:05
............

CanyonMan
10-24-2010, 20:47
Because CanyonMan is such a fan of "cheap".....err.....uh.....umm.....eh....ahem..."economical" ammunition and the Winchester USA pistol ammunition line in particular, I ran this test just for him.

Date: 10August2010<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Ammunition: <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:City><st1:place>Winchester</st1:place></st1:City><st1:country-region><st1:place>USA</st1:place></st1:country-region> .45ACP 230 gr. JHP (USA45JHP)
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p>Lateral Aspect: </o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p>http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y301/CharlesSchwartz/100_2481.jpg</o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p>Frontal Aspect:</o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p>http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y301/CharlesSchwartz/100_2486.jpg</o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p>Another Lateral Aspect:</o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p>http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y301/CharlesSchwartz/100_2487.jpg</o:p>



Test Platform: HK USP45<o:p></o:p>
Barrel Length: 4.41 inches<o:p></o:p>
Caliber: .45ACP<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Barrier: 4 layers of 1 ounce cotton T-shirt fabric<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Test Media: Water<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Muzzle Velocity: 870 feet per second<o:p></o:p>
Impact Velocity: 865 feet per second<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Kinetic Energy = 517.998 Joules<o:p></o:p>
Power = 213.9776 kW<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Test Distance: 21 feet<o:p></o:p>
Temperature: 82° F<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Recovered Projectile Data:<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Average Expanded Diameter: 0.735 inch<o:p></o:p>
Retained Weight: 229.2 grains (99.65%)<o:p></o:p>
Shape Aspect: symmetric, concave expansion face with light pitting<o:p></o:p>
Total Length: 0.421 inch<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
MacPherson Penetration Model Analysis:<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Cavitation Boundary (Vcav) = 381.666 feet per second<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Permanent Wound Cavity Mass (Mw) = 62.264 grams (2.196 ounces)<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Penetration Depth (Xcm) = 31.913 cm (12.564 inches)<o:p></o:p>


This round produced spectacular impact. (causing the test fixture to tip over at impact)

The Mw and Xcm says it all: Plenty of tissue destruction potential and optimal, balanced penetration make this 'economy' product a "best buy". Expansion is in the 1.6x caliber range and the permanent wound cavity mass exceeds the upper boundary (40 grams) of "WTI adequacy" by more than 50% (!) as defined by Duncan MacPherson in his book, "Bullet Penetration".

What's not to like about this round's performance?


http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y301/CharlesSchwartz/100_2525.jpg






How about that, CM ?!?!?!?!?







Christmas came early for me... Thanks amigo!

Just happens I drove in to Mesquite, TX. a few weeks ago to a gun show, and found a ton of these 230gr WW's (for reloading) just the lead JHP's. I bought a whole bunch ! I been running them even through the little G36 at (bob said when I told him this, "man that's hot") 7.7/7.8grs Power Pistol. They are coming out upper 9's in vel. Accuracy is excellent !

Haven't tried them through my EDC M1911 yet, but have no reason to believe they won't do very well.

By the looks of this bullet in your pics, I am looking forward to shooting up some stuff (other than paper) out here for some really good test. I have reloads ready for these, and the 147gr WW notched, and the 147gr XTP's at 1050/1075fps, and several 10mm and other 45acp loads, all ready to test.

As you know, I have been in a circumstance of late that I cannot do any photographic or in depth testing of any kind for a little while. But did have time to at least rap off a few of everything mentioned here at some boring paper outside.

All looked very good accuracy wise, so now, hopefully this fall/winter things will slow down so I can get behind the house and set up some really cool test media of all sorts and get after it.


You have blessed me here my friend, with this uh, hum, uh well, EL CHEAP-O ammo. I THANK YA! ;)

Although I do roll my own as you know for 'most all' carry, I do favor the 230 PDX1 in 45acp, and the 230gr Hornady XTP, and the 'same brands' in 9mil 147gr weight.


BUT, that being said. The test I have had time to run, and the things I have fired into, and etc, with the WWB 147gr JHP 9mil, and the 230gr WWB 45acp you show above. Never a malfunction or hiccup ever, and very good accuracy even at 35/40 yards, and penetration into "junk" at this point, has been far more than acceptable "for me." I like 'em ;)


Again, thank you man, i really appreciate it brother.

Looking forward to the phone call.

Pray all is well with y'all


Buenos Noches





CanyonMan

481
10-24-2010, 21:38
Christmas came early for me... Thanks amigo!

Just happens I drove in to Mesquite, TX. a few weeks ago to a gun show, and found a ton of these 230gr WW's (for reloading) just the lead JHP's. I bought a whole bunch ! I been running them even through the little G36 at (bob said when I told him this, "man that's hot") 7.7/7.8grs Power Pistol. They are coming out upper 9's in vel. Accuracy is excellent !

Haven't tried them through my EDC M1911 yet, but have no reason to believe they won't do very well.

By the looks of this bullet in your pics, I am looking forward to shooting up some stuff (other than paper) out here for some really good test. I have reloads ready for these, and the 147gr WW notched, and the 147gr XTP's at 1050/1075fps, and several 10mm and other 45acp loads, all ready to test.

As you know, I have been in a circumstance of late that I cannot do any photographic or in depth testing of any kind for a little while. But did have time to at least rap off a few of everything mentioned here at some boring paper outside.

All looked very good accuracy wise, so now, hopefully this fall/winter things will slow down so I can get behind the house and set up some really cool test media of all sorts and get after it.


You have blessed me here my friend, with this uh, hum, uh well, EL CHEAP-O ammo. I THANK YA! ;)

Although I do roll my own as you know for 'most all' carry, I do favor the 230 PDX1 in 45acp, and the 230gr Hornady XTP, and the 'same brands' in 9mil 147gr weight.


BUT, that being said. The test I have had time to run, and the things I have fired into, and etc, with the WWB 147gr JHP 9mil, and the 230gr WWB 45acp you show above. Never a malfunction or hiccup ever, and very good accuracy even at 35/40 yards, and penetration into "junk" at this point, has been far more than acceptable "for me." I like 'em ;)


Again, thank you man, i really appreciate it brother.

Looking forward to the phone call.

Pray all is well with y'all


Buenos Noches

CanyonMan


Anytime, CM. Anytime. :)

Glolt20-91
10-25-2010, 01:45
Great tests.

I did some WWB 115gr FMJ steel testing last Friday shooting a G17, some interesting results, including a double steel barrier. Won't be able to upload the pics til later this week.

Here's the numbers that 481 ran on the 230gr Gold Dot in front of 7.4grs Power Pistol, 984fps from a Colt XSE;

.45ACP 230 gr. Gold Dot JHP
Exp 0.735”
Vi = 984 feet per second (494fpe)
Wr= 230.9 grains

Vc = 383.316 feet per second
Mw = 67.378 grams (2.377 oz)
Xin = 13.486 inches (34.253 cm)

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/45auto230GD984fps008.jpg

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/45auto230GD984fps006.jpg

This is my inventory load for both of my Colts and I have a special fondness with this load and the XSE.

Changing gears to the 147 XTP, notice what happens when the velocity is increased;

Hornady 9mm 147 gr. XTP 995 fps and 0.575" expansion...
Impact velocity: 995fps – (323 fpe)
Average recovered diameter: 0.575”

Vcav = 412.613 fps
Mw = 49.0965 grams – 1.73 ounces (very, very nice!)
Xcm = 39.814 cm (15.675 inches)

Hornady 9mm 147 gr. XTP JHP

Impact Velocity: 1151 fps (435fpe)
Recovered weight: 125.1 grains (85.1%)
Recovered average diameter: 0.580 inch

Cavitation Boundary (Vc) = 411.543 feet per second
Permanent Wound Cavity Mass (Mw) = 38.412 grams (1.355 ounces)
Penetration Depth (Xcm) = 31.788 cm (12.515 inches)

Gelatin-to-water penetration ratio: 1 : 2.477

Faster velocity fragged the XTP, penetration depth and crush cavity size decreased; only 0.005" expansion difference.

Good to see the thread up and running with new testing. :supergrin:

Bob :cowboy:

481
10-25-2010, 08:40
Great tests.

I did some WWB 115gr FMJ steel testing last Friday shooting a G17, some interesting results, including a double steel barrier. Won't be able to upload the pics til later this week.

Here's the numbers that 481 ran on the 230gr Gold Dot in front of 7.4grs Power Pistol, 984fps from a Colt XSE;

.45ACP 230 gr. Gold Dot JHP
Exp 0.735”
Vi = 984 feet per second (494fpe)
Wr= 230.9 grains

Vc = 383.316 feet per second
Mw = 67.378 grams (2.377 oz)
Xin = 13.486 inches (34.253 cm)

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/45auto230GD984fps008.jpg

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/45auto230GD984fps006.jpg

This is my inventory load for both of my Colts and I have a special fondness with this load and the XSE.

Changing gears to the 147 XTP, notice what happens when the velocity is increased;

Hornady 9mm 147 gr. XTP 995 fps and 0.575" expansion...
Impact velocity: 995fps – (323 fpe)
Average recovered diameter: 0.575”

Vcav = 412.613 fps
Mw = 49.0965 grams – 1.73 ounces (very, very nice!)
Xcm = 39.814 cm (15.675 inches)

Hornady 9mm 147 gr. XTP JHP

Impact Velocity: 1151 fps (435fpe)
Recovered weight: 125.1 grains (85.1%)
Recovered average diameter: 0.580 inch

Cavitation Boundary (Vc) = 411.543 feet per second
Permanent Wound Cavity Mass (Mw) = 38.412 grams (1.355 ounces)
Penetration Depth (Xcm) = 31.788 cm (12.515 inches)

Gelatin-to-water penetration ratio: 1 : 2.477

Faster velocity fragged the XTP, penetration depth and crush cavity size decreased; only 0.005" expansion difference.

Good to see the thread up and running with new testing. :supergrin:

Bob :cowboy:

Thanks, Bob.

OK, now I've got something to look forward to. Your test results (re: the 115 gr. FMJs v. double steel sheets) are anticipated eagerly.

I remember running the numbers for that .45 230 gr. Gold Dot load. Still the most impressive test load I've seen in a long time. That one'll be a pain to top. Good luck trying though.


As for the Hornady 9mm 147 gr. XTP; it seems to have been 'tuned' for optimal performance in the 950-1050 fps velocity window.

Your observations relating to the two 9mm 147 grain XTP rounds substantially differing terminal behavior despite such a seemingly insignificant difference (0.005") in final expansion diameter are rather insightful.

Push this particular design much faster and one enters the world of "diminshing returns". Yeah , you'll see a little more expansion, but that occurs at the expense of penetration. This sounds counter-intuitive at first, but an examination of what occurred here makes sense when we consider it under the disciplines of fluid dynamics and physics.

The cavitation boundary is directly proportional to the square of the radius of the projectile's expansion face (the coefficicient of drag remains unchanged though) in an incompressible soft solid flow and this is why we see a loss of penetration depth even though the faster round (1151 fps) strikes the target more than 150 fps faster than the slower (995 fps) of the two test rounds.

While the faster (1151 fps) XTP possesses more momentum (which increases linearly with mass and velocity) than its slower (995 fps) XTP counterpart, it produces a greater total drag product yield (which increases exponentially with the expansion radius) meaning that the increased expansion induced by the higher velocity round creates a "deficit" (via its more rapidly increasing drag product yield) that outruns the gains produced by the increased momentum of the faster round.

Additionally, the faster round actually shed a significant portion of its mass (~15%) further mitgating any gains that the increase in momentum might have created since the penetration depth is also directly proportional to the bullet's final recovered mass.

Therefore, the momentum increase loses this particular battle to the more rapidly increasing drag product yield due to both of these factors (drag yield and projectile mass being shed) working against it.

:)

Glolt20-91
10-25-2010, 11:25
Thanks, Bob.

OK, now I've got something to look forward to. Your test results (re: the 115 gr. FMJs v. double steel sheets) are anticipated eagerly.

I remember running the numbers for that .45 230 gr. Gold Dot load. Still the most impressive test load I've seen in a long time. That one'll be a pain to top. Good luck trying though.


As for the Hornady 9mm 147 gr. XTP; it seems to have been 'tuned' for optimal performance in the 950-1050 fps velocity window.

Your observations relating to the two 9mm 147 grain XTP rounds substantially differing terminal behavior despite such a seemingly insignificant difference (0.005") in final expansion diameter are rather insightful.

Push this particular design much faster and one enters the world of "diminshing returns". Yeah , you'll see a little more expansion, but that occurs at the expense of penetration. This sounds counter-intuitive at first, but an examination of what occurred here makes sense when we consider it under the disciplines of fluid dynamics and physics.

The cavitation boundary is directly proportional to the square of the radius of the projectile's expansion face (the coefficicient of drag remains unchanged though) in an incompressible soft solid flow and this is why we see a loss of penetration depth even though the faster round (1151 fps) strikes the target more than 150 fps faster than the slower (995 fps) of the two test rounds.

While the faster (1151 fps) XTP possesses more momentum (which increases linearly with mass and velocity) than its slower (995 fps) XTP counterpart, it produces a greater total drag product yield (which increases exponentially with the expansion radius) meaning that the increased expansion induced by the higher velocity round creates a "deficit" (via its more rapidly increasing drag product yield) that outruns the gains produced by the increased momentum of the faster round.

Additionally, the faster round actually shed a significant portion of its mass (~15%) further mitgating any gains that the increase in momentum might have created since the penetration depth is also directly proportional to the bullet's final recovered mass.

Therefore, the momentum increase loses this particular battle to the more rapidly increasing drag product yield due to both of these factors (drag yield and projectile mass being shed) working against it.

:)

Nice write-up, thanks amigo!

Bob :cowboy:

Glolt20-91
11-04-2010, 15:40
Came across this twin steel barrier that's probably been laying in the desert for at least the last 4 decades, measures the same 1.5mm, x2, that 481 tested in post #188.

I don't have exit chrono velocities, but water bottles behind the steel had round holes, no keyholing noticed;

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/9mm115grFMJ0_055001.jpg

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/9mm115grFMJ0_055002.jpg

Good double penetration at an angle w/o deflection, exit holes measured ~0.6"-0.7".

Bob :cowboy:

481
11-04-2010, 17:43
Came across this twin steel barrier that's probably been laying in the desert for at least the last 4 decades, measures the same 1.5mm, x2, that 481 tested in post #188.

I don't have exit chrono velocities, but water bottles behind the steel had round holes, no keyholing noticed;

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/9mm115grFMJ0_055001.jpg

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/9mm115grFMJ0_055002.jpg

Good double penetration at an angle w/o deflection, exit holes measured ~0.6"-0.7".

Bob :cowboy:

Bob,

Thanks for the pictures.

3mm of steel is a whole lot of penetration. Kinda makes you think about things that you might normally consider to be "cover", may at best be "concealment". Yeeeesh. :shocked:

As soon as conditions (differing kinds) permit, I am gonna have to get me a whole bunch of 12"x12" 16 gauge cold-rolled steel panel and see what it takes to stop typical handgun caliber FMJs.

Glolt20-91
11-04-2010, 18:17
Bob,

Thanks for the pictures.

3mm of steel is a whole lot of penetration. Kinda makes you think about things that you might normally consider to be "cover", may at best be "concealment". Yeeeesh. :shocked:

As soon as conditions (differing kinds) permit, I am gonna have to get me a whole bunch of 12"x12" 16 gauge cold-rolled steel panel and see what it takes to stop typical handgun caliber FMJs.

Kinda makes you think about the times we practiced years ago firing from behind car doors; most of us believed that was an exercise in futility.

You should be able to find all sorts/kinds of steel to test during you strolls in the park. :supergrin:

Bob :cowboy:

CanyonMan
11-04-2010, 19:08
I know I've shown this before, but not this particular view I don't think.


The two 'pass through holes" were made with 124gr 9mm FMJ's. the big dent in the center was from a Ranger 127gr +P+ (not impressive) and the other two dents were made with a 1 5/8" barrel NAA mini Mag pocket pistol and 40gr FMJ ammo. That is why the dent from the 127gr ranger +P+ is not so impressive. all shots were at 25 yds, except the mini mag mouse gun at 3 feet.

http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab256/yrag5951/GT%20stuff/pics091.jpg

Back side: You got your two pass threws from the 9mm, and a big bump from the 127gr ranger +P+, but notice the bump from the 22mag out of the little NAA 1 5/8" barrel... Not much difference ! BTW this is 1/8" thick steel I cut off the frame work of a pick up truck (long dead).

http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab256/yrag5951/GT%20stuff/pics092.jpg


Y'all are most correct in saying: " Kinda makes you think about things that you might normally consider to be "cover", may at best be "concealment".




CM

481
11-05-2010, 16:48
Kinda makes you think about the times we practiced years ago firing from behind car doors; most of us believed that was an exercise in futility.

You should be able to find all sorts/kinds of steel to test during you strolls in the park. :supergrin:

Bob :cowboy:

Bob,

Yeah, I always hated those qualification drills.

Felt like I was bein' sold a "bill of goods" when I was told that the cruiser door would deflect (as in slightly alter the course :upeyes:) any incoming fire. There was never any mention as to where the incoming fire would be deflected to, but I never took solace that it would be going anywhere better/nicer/less destructive than where it was gonna go in the first place.

If cars doors were made of 1/2" AR400 steel plate, I guess that I might've had more faith in those drills.

Oh, the silly things we had to do.