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CaptainXL
06-22-2010, 07:58
What self defense 10 mm ammo does everyone recommend? Plus, because 10 mm is somewhat hard to find where can I get your recommended 10 mm ammo?

Also, where can I get some cheaper 10 mm (not personal defense rounds) for range time?

Bought a 10 mm at auction about 60 days ago and finally got a chance to shoot it yesterday. Really like the 10 mm. Store/range had only some Hornady 180 gr XTP and it was pretty pricey ($19.99 for 20). That's a little too pricey to shoot a lot of at the range.

srt-4_jon
06-22-2010, 09:35
Buffalo Bore is good self defense ammo. It isnt cheap though. Also, if you are using the 10mm as your SD gun, you will want something hotter than cheap Blazer or Ultramax practice ammo. The difference in recoil is pretty big. Georgia Arms has decent ammo closer to full power loads at a good price.

DonD
06-22-2010, 15:32
I never shot Buffalo Bore in the G20 I used to have but did fire Double Tap which ran close to advertised velocity. For some reason, the G20 I had would cycle Blazer but not the DT. Two trips to Glock and no improvement, sold the gun. Don

gatorboy
06-22-2010, 16:07
Reeds and Georgia-Arms make ammo that is much hotter than any .40 but not as hot as BB or DT (advertised). Makes carrying 10mm worthwhile while allowing for decent follow up shots. The G-A 155 GD @ 1375 and 180 GD @ 1150 are nice SD loads IMO. I've shot about 1,000 of each over the years through both Glocks and a 6.5" S&W 610 revolver. Never had any feeding, ignition or extraction issues with any G-A ammo in any caliber and I've shot a lot of it. Reeds has Silvertips and Golden Sabers loaded pretty hot and he waterproofs the primers. I've shot limited amount of 165 and 180 Golden Sabers made by Reeds, not an issue yet.

telecster
06-22-2010, 16:12
Reload.. I carry 230gr. hard cast DT in the woods. In town I carry either my 380, 9mm or 40 cal

Glockman454
06-22-2010, 18:06
For personal protection in my 10mm (G20) I use DoubleTap and have for years. My choices of bullets and weights are contingent on where I am relying on the pistol for personal defense i.e. home, woods or carry in general public.

I have used the following DoubleTap without any problems of any kind in 10mm: 135gr nosler, 165 gr brass jacketed (which is Golden Sabers) 180 gr bonded defense (which is Gold Dots) 180 gr controlled expansion (Last I knew, were Hornady XTP) 200 gr controlled expansion ( Can't verify, but I think it is a Montana Gold).

Although I have had great performance and accuracy with any DoubleTap in 10mm plus other calibers, I have the best accuracy in 10mm with the 165gr brass jacketed and 180 gr controlled expansion.

IMO, for obvious reasons in warm weather, (people lightly clothed) for general carry where innocent bystanders are possible, I would suggest the 180 gr bonded defense as the maximum weight. Preferably go lighter in warm weather when bystanders are a risk.

Controlled expansion and heavy loads are too much risk for over-penetration in some cases, especially considering most self defense situations occurs in less than 20 feet apart.

Another good point with DoubleTap is that they used nickel plated brass. (Starline last I knew) It feeds very smooth.

I have never tried Buffalo Bore, but hear it is top notch too.

JW1178
06-22-2010, 19:13
165 Gold Dot's from Double Tap seem to work great. I like the GD because it's a good bonded bullet that can hold up to the power and stay together.

Brent10mm
06-22-2010, 19:28
Win 175gr silvertips are not to shabby for a factory loading. that or some hornady XTP's should hold you over til you can order...

buffalo bore, or double tap.... top notch, just make sure you get gold dots in the rounds, some I have seen are loaded with montana gold bullets, which are target bullets only, do not use for self defense, IDK why they even thought of loading those.

if your really serious about that 10mm, get into reloading. you could be fully set up and running for under $200 (Lee press, scale, tumbler, dies, ect.), and make any ammo you want... for a hell of a lot less than $1 a round....:whistling:

Glolt20-91
06-22-2010, 19:55
The biggest problem with full power 10mm loads is finding what .40S&W design bullets will perform at fast 10mm velocities.

As an example, I've tested, and blown up 180gr Gold Dots at ~1300fps; another .40S&W design bullet.

180gr/10mm ammo at 1150fps isn't that much difference than the Winchester .40S&W 180gr PDX which I chronographed at 1080fps.

Factory Winchester 175gr Silvertips @1290fps is designed for 10mm velocities.

For self defense scenarios and after doing a lot of 10mm testing, given high center chest hits, I'm not sure the 10mm has a significant advantage over other caliber, bullet specific, combinations. In addition, the G20 gives slower follow-up shot times.

From a Mike McNett post, there's a lot of caliber overlap performance with DT ammo; i.e. 9mm/147gr Gold Dot vs 10mm/155gr Gold Dot.

Here are official gelatin results for all of the DoubleTap loads!
All of these tests were done using 10% ballistic gelatin provided by Vyse gelatin using all FBI protocols and 4 layers of denim and two layers of light cotton T-shirt in front of the gelatin.

DoubleTap 9mm+P
115gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1415fps - 12.00" / .70"
124gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1310fps - 13.25" / .70"
147gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps - 14.00" / .66"

DoubleTap .40 S&W Penetration / expansion
135gr. Nosler JHP @ 1375fps - 12.10" / .72"
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1275fps - 13.00" / .76"
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1200fps - 14.0" / .70"
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1100fps - 14.75" / .68"
200gr XTP @ 1050fps - 17.75" / .59"


DoubleTap .357 Sig
115gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1550fps - 12.25" / .71"
125gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1450fps - 14.5" / .66"
147gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1250fps - 14.75" / .73"

DoubleTap .357 Magnum
125gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1600fps - 12.75" / .69"
158gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 19.0" .56"

DoubleTap 10mm
135gr JHP @ 1600fps - 11.0" / .70" frag nasty
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1475fps - 13.5" / .88"
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 14.25" / 1.02"
165gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1425fps - 14.75" / .82"
180gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1330fps - 16.0" / .85"
180gr XTP @ 1350fps – 17.25” / .77”
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1300fps - 15.25" / .96"
200gr XTP @ 1250fps - 19.5" / .72"
230gr Equalizer @ 1040fps - 11.0" and 17.0" / .62" and .40"

DoubleTap .45ACP
185gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1225fps - 12.75" / .82"
200gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps - 14.25" / .88"
230gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1010fps - 15.25" / .95"

DoubleTap 9X25
115gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1800fps - 10.0" / .64" frag nasty
125gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1725fps - 15.0" / .74"
147gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1550fps - 17.5" / .68"

For those who are asking, here it is!
-Mike
__________________
"TWO HOLES BLEED BETTER THAN ONE!"
www.doubletapammo.com
For the 10mm enthusiast!
Last edited by MCNETT on 02-22-2006 at 10:44 PM



Head-to-head bullet sectional density, 10mm/180gr and .45auto/230gr Gold Dots yield same expansion/penetration numbers.

Pushing the 165gr Gold Dot into the low 1300s (let alone 1400fps), all 165gr Gold Dots I tested peeled back like this;

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/40cal165GD1500fps016.jpg

9mm/147gr XTPs @1200fps give the same penetration length as DT's 10mm/200gr XTPs, with considerably less recoil.

Bob :cowboy:

Brent10mm
06-22-2010, 21:35
Head-to-head bullet sectional density, 10mm/180gr and .45auto/230gr Gold Dots yield same expansion/penetration numbers.

Bob :cowboy:

good overall post bob,

45 and 10mm are very close in gel and such, 10mm gold dots are indeed under-developed for full bore 10mm loads....40 S&W bullets no doubt.

however, they still retain a good amount of weight, my mule deer tests confirm...:whistling:(180gr gold dot @ 1300~fps), full 90 deg. chest penetration.

However, I wonder which caliber 45/10 dumped more energy in the same distance of gel...?:dunno:
similar expanded bullet diameter, and penetration.... vastly different wound cavities...

Xtp's make a better hunting/penetration round, but gold dots are perfect for the two legged fodder... gold dots in the 10, kinda remind me of the 357 mag 125gr rem scalloped jacket, but better....

IndyGunFreak
06-22-2010, 21:39
What self defense 10 mm ammo does everyone recommend? Plus, because 10 mm is somewhat hard to find where can I get your recommended 10 mm ammo?

Also, where can I get some cheaper 10 mm (not personal defense rounds) for range time?

Bought a 10 mm at auction about 60 days ago and finally got a chance to shoot it yesterday. Really like the 10 mm. Store/range had only some Hornady 180 gr XTP and it was pretty pricey ($19.99 for 20). That's a little too pricey to shoot a lot of at the range.

Spend about $300 bucks on a reasonably inexpensive reloading setup.. that is the only way you'll get anywhere w/ 10mm..

As for self defense.. Georgia Arms, Double Tap, Buffalo Bore, etc... maybe Corbon. If you buy Federal, Speer, etc.. they all neuter it, and you might as well carry a 40...

I'm curious.. did you not research this at all before you bought the 10mm, or was it an impulse buy, etc?

IGF

freakshow10mm
06-22-2010, 23:39
The biggest problem with full power 10mm loads is finding what .40S&W design bullets will perform at fast 10mm velocities.
Gold Dot won't, Golden Sabre won't, Hydrashock won't. The proven performers have been cast lead alloy (you don't need super hard bullets), the Hornady XTP (my personal favorite), and the Winchester Silvertip. Haven't tested the Barnes bullets but from field reports by the hunters, I'll pass on those and focus efforts elsewhere.

It is my personal opinion the best bullet for self defense 10mm at 10mm velocity is the Hornady XTP. For a mid range (split the .40 and 10mm in half) 10mm defense load, the Gold Dot is the winner over other jacketed designs.

For self defense scenarios and after doing a lot of 10mm testing, given high center chest hits, I'm not sure the 10mm has a significant advantage over other caliber, bullet specific, combinations. In addition, the G20 gives slower follow-up shot times.
You are so not getting a Christmas card this year from me. :rofl:

JW1178
06-23-2010, 00:08
Here is the nice thing about 10mm: Just about any load will get the job done.

fredj338
06-23-2010, 00:51
Of the current loads, I like the 175grWSTHP & 155grXTP. Both full power loads & available. I understand DT has been swapping out bullets, so you really have no idea what yo uare getting. BB makes good ammo, but spendy. GA for practice but reloading will save you tons in a 10mm.

Glolt20-91
06-23-2010, 11:42
Gold Dot won't, Golden Sabre won't, Hydrashock won't. The proven performers have been cast lead alloy (you don't need super hard bullets), the Hornady XTP (my personal favorite), and the Winchester Silvertip. Haven't tested the Barnes bullets but from field reports by the hunters, I'll pass on those and focus efforts elsewhere.

It is my personal opinion the best bullet for self defense 10mm at 10mm velocity is the Hornady XTP. For a mid range (split the .40 and 10mm in half) 10mm defense load, the Gold Dot is the winner over other jacketed designs.


You are so not getting a Christmas card this year from me. :rofl:

The mantle over the fireplace only has so much room, however, 1 Christmas card instead of zero would make me feel better. :supergrin:

Bob :cowboy:

Glolt20-91
06-23-2010, 12:08
good overall post bob,

45 and 10mm are very close in gel and such, 10mm gold dots are indeed under-developed for full bore 10mm loads....40 S&W bullets no doubt.

however, they still retain a good amount of weight, my mule deer tests confirm...:whistling:(180gr gold dot @ 1300~fps), full 90 deg. chest penetration.

However, I wonder which caliber 45/10 dumped more energy in the same distance of gel...?:dunno:
similar expanded bullet diameter, and penetration.... vastly different wound cavities...

Xtp's make a better hunting/penetration round, but gold dots are perfect for the two legged fodder... gold dots in the 10, kinda remind me of the 357 mag 125gr rem scalloped jacket, but better....

I hear you. I get frustrated at times trying to find which bullets will consistantly perform, and at what velocities?

I've loaded the 155gr XTP upper 1300s for carry while working outdoors, a very rural area; but there's also a snubbie .44 Special with hardcasts in the back pocket.

I've also blown up 9mm bullets at upper .38Super velocities; however, the .38Super can be loaded with .357mag design bullets. With the recoil of a G17, on my hip is a Colt 1911 loaded with 125gr XTPs ~upper 1400s-1500fps. That bullet at that velocity reminds me also of the .357mag/125gr SJHP.

As for hunting deer, what do you think of Buffalo Bore's new .45auto/255gr hardcast ammo, other than being very expensive?

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=214

Bob :cowboy:

walt cowan
06-23-2010, 13:44
glock-20. 200 grain xtp from d.t. - it'll drop whitetail at 50 yards so, it should have no problem with a 300 pound methhead at 8 feet. now for the indoor range or kicking it at the walmart parking lot, rem. 180 grainers work well too.

Brent10mm
06-23-2010, 13:59
it should have no problem with a 300 pound methhead at 8 feet.

just curious, but where have you seen a 300 lb methhead? usually there at or under 100lbs... so your gonna need those light and fast loads...:rofl:


Bob, seems like a stout 45 load. But imo, even a 45acp would be best served by a good hp for deers. 230 xtp?
I am however going to work up some .357 sig loads with 125gr golddots' @1450-1500fps real soon.

Glolt20-91
06-23-2010, 14:25
just curious, but where have you seen a 300 lb methhead? usually there at or under 100lbs... so your gonna need those light and fast loads...:rofl:


Bob, seems like a stout 45 load. But imo, even a 45acp would be best served by a good hp for deers. 230 xtp?
I am however going to work up some .357 sig loads with 125gr golddots' @1450-1500fps real soon.

Haven't seen any 300lb tweekers around here either.

Looking forward to reading your 125gr Gold Dot tests, I like the shallow cavity GDs. The Para feeds them fine, but the Colt doesn't, at any COAL. :crying: :supergrin:

I load the 125gr GDs for the G17, upper 1200s-low 1300s; big performance difference vs the 124gr GD at that velocity.

Bob :cowboy:

TheGrimReaper
06-24-2010, 08:38
I use the Win 175gr STHP myself, altough I see some DT 165gr GDHP in the future.

walt cowan
06-28-2010, 12:56
just curious, but where have you seen a 300 lb methhead? usually there at or under 100lbs... so your gonna need those light and fast loads...:rofl:


Bob, seems like a stout 45 load. But imo, even a 45acp would be best served by a good hp for deers. 230 xtp?
I am however going to work up some .357 sig loads with 125gr golddots' @1450-1500fps real soon.

eastcoast methheads start out between 200 and 300 lbs. most wind up in jail before the major loss of weight. they drop the meth and pick up coke and smack habits. all the while benching 200 lbs or more a day while waiting to hit the streets and picking up the meth habit again.

JW1178
06-28-2010, 21:12
Every Gold Dot I recovered from being fired from my 10mm held together. The XTP shed it's jacket. GD's are bonded well. It might be argued that a GD will expand wide and then the pedals/tallons will fold back, but at that point that bullet has already done significant damage where it counts. I'll tell you the 165 GD Double Tap I tested is a nasty round that would do some real damage to whatever it hit.

chippy
06-29-2010, 09:42
FWIW - Buffalo Bore is now using Montana Gold bullets in their 10mm loads (180grn), as is Double Tap. They are claiming results from R&D testing are as good or better than XTP's. Any thoughts?

freakshow10mm
06-29-2010, 10:36
FWIW - Buffalo Bore is now using Montana Gold bullets in their 10mm loads (180grn), as is Double Tap. They are claiming results from R&D testing are as good or better than XTP's. Any thoughts?
Accuracy perhaps but not terminal ballistics. Not a chance.

CanyonMan
06-29-2010, 13:11
I don't carry a 10mm for SD. I own two, and have carried it a few times. Always with WW 175 gr ST's. I believe this bullet delivers the goods from the 10mm. All this DT and BB super nitro is just not needed for two legged on the street SD IMHO. (good ammo yes sir). Out west here in the brush and thick thick cover with illegals and gun and dope runners, (BB) would be great.

I 'roll my own' and do bring vels up higher for out here, and use 200 gr bullets XTP's or 'mostly Hard Cast'. Again, 'on the street' for the folks in the city, I truly believe the WW silver tips are plenty good if you got to pack a 10mm.


My .02


Good shooting !



CanyonMan

chippy
06-29-2010, 17:07
+1 for the Win. SilverTips. FWIW - They have been the best factory load I,ve tried so far.

mikegun
07-03-2010, 09:55
CONSIDERING what you pay for it georgis Arms makes very good ammo, quite a few southern police depts use it and swear by it....they make a hefty 10mm as well.

JW1178
07-04-2010, 11:54
FWIW - Buffalo Bore is now using Montana Gold bullets in their 10mm loads (180grn), as is Double Tap. They are claiming results from R&D testing are as good or better than XTP's. Any thoughts?

Youtube it.... Montana Gold is NO Gold Dot, not even close.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsGnDtgVHc0

glock20c10mm
07-06-2010, 13:11
Every Gold Dot I recovered from being fired from my 10mm held together. The XTP shed it's jacket. GD's are bonded well. It might be argued that a GD will expand wide and then the pedals/tallons will fold back, but at that point that bullet has already done significant damage where it counts. I'll tell you the 165 GD Double Tap I tested is a nasty round that would do some real damage to whatever it hit.

+1

Sometimes the XTP jackets hold on, and sometimes not. Doesn't really seem to affect their penetration depth though.

I switched from a G20C to a G29 some time ago. In the G29 my favorite overall load is Double Tap 155gr Gold Dots @ ~1400fps. They make a sweet combination, .88" expansion and ~ 13" penetration depth with some frag. Exactly what I want! Oh yeah, and their accuracy is excellent in my experience.


Good Shooting,
Craig

Mwinter
07-06-2010, 14:28
My dos centavos....

1. If memory serves, Buffalo Bore has recommendations on some of their loads to use fully supported chambers and heavier recoil springs....that means not a stock-Glock. I'd double check before you buy/order.

2. My own experience running various loads during ATK gel labs is the same as Canyons...few .40cal bullets are designed to run at 1200fps+, and there may be little or no additional terminal effect from running them this fast. 'Energy dump' is not a wounding mechanism, and no factory 10mm load produces a significant enough combination of bullet upset and temporary cavity to be compared with a centerfire rifle round. The 'blown' or overexpanded bullets in the pics represent a waste of potential terminal effect....that bullet upset usually happens in the first 1-3" inches of tissue, and after that you're left with a permanent wound track that is not nearly as wide as that from an optimally expanded bullet.

3. Regardless of additional terminal effect, properly loaded 10mm will extend the practical range and barrier penetration of a service handgun platform. If terminal effect at 25+yds or penetration of barrier is not a concern, you'd likely be better served with the top .40/.45 loads.

If I were choosing a 10mm social load (I still have gobs of a custom *less* than full-power load from Mcnett, so I probably won't be buying any 10mm JHP stuff for a long while), I'd most likely look at the CorBon DPX or Winchester Silvertip.

Academically, I'd really like to see the component Hornady FTX .40cal bullet and the 200gr GDHP loaded in 10mm at 1150-1250fps.....maybe one of them is the magic pill? Either that, or my imaginary heavy-jacket 10mm 200gr JHP from Hawk, or a 165-180gr Barnes X.

Glolt20-91
07-06-2010, 14:42
+1

Sometimes the XTP jackets hold on, and sometimes not. Doesn't really seem to affect their penetration depth though.

I switched from a G20C to a G29 some time ago. In the G29 my favorite overall load is Double Tap 155gr Gold Dots @ ~1400fps. They make a sweet combination, .88" expansion and ~ 13" penetration depth with some frag. Exactly what I want! Oh yeah, and their accuracy is excellent in my experience.


Good Shooting,
Craig

Glad to see you online again, stay safe amigo, some nasty things happening where we live.

At 1420fps, this 155gr Gold Dot expanded to 0.814" with a retained weight of 132.9grs;

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/10mm155GD1420fps007.jpg

Given these parameters;
(***where Vcav equals the lower velocity limit of the cavitation regime, Mw equals the predicted mass of the tissue within the wound cavity and Xcm equals the predicted penetration in soft tissue/calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin)

Then the calculated numbers of the 155gr GD in ballistic gel are;

Speer 10mm 155 gr. "Gold Dot" JHP
Impact Velocity: 1420 fps
Retained Weight: 132.9 grains (85.74%)

Vc: 371.823 fps
Mw: 45.820 gm (1.616 oz)
Xcm: 21.761 cm (8.567 in)

Pushing the 155gr XTP well beyond its upper 1300fps design limit - 1570fps;

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/10mm155XTP1570fps006.jpg

Hornady 10mm 155 gr. "XTP" JHP
Impact Velocity: 1570 fps
Retained Weight: 117.0 grains (75.48%)

Vc: 395.895 fps
Mw: 41.177 gm (1.453 oz)
Xcm: 27.855 cm (10.996 in)

When I carry the G20 SF in a desert environment; it's loaded with 155gr XTPs, upper 1300s.

Here's how the 10mm heavy weights played out;

Winchester 10mm 175 gr. Silver Tip JHP
Impact Velocity: 1389 fps (factory advertised velocity is 1290fps)
Retained Weight: 150.1 grains (85.77%)

Vc: 384.815 fps
Mw: 50.533 gm (1.783 oz)
Xcm: 28.210 cm (11.106 in)

10mm 180 gr. Remington Golden Sabre JHP
Impact velocity: 1243 fps
Average recovered diameter: 0.698"

Vcav = 389.302 fps
Mw = 58.906 grams (2.078 ounces)
Xcm = 33.361 cm (13.134 inches)

Speer 10mm 180 gr. Gold Dot JHP
Impact velocity: 1296 fps
Recovered weight: 118.7 gr. (66%)
Average recovered diameter: 0.565"

Vcav = 414.791 fps
Mw = 37.459 grams (1.321 ounces)
Xcm = 33.350 cm (13.130 inches)

Notice the jacket petals of the 180gr GD that never bonded with lead;

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/10mm180GDfrag003.jpg


Hornady 10mm 180 gr. XTP JHP
Impact velocity: 1294 fps
Recovered weight: 144.7 gr. (80%)
Average recovered diameter: 0.623"

Vcav = 397.071 fps
Mw = 46.494 grams (1.640 ounces)
Xcm = 33.940 cm (13.362 inches)

Interestingly enough, the 180gr JHP that had the slowest velocity of the 175gr/180gr JHPs tested, held together and had the largest crush cavity - the 180gr Golden Saber.

While one gallon size ziploc bags filled with water are not ballistic gel blocks, there are reliable formulas to calculate a bullet's weight, velocity and expansion numbers from water to ballistic gel.

Example;

.45ACP Winchester Bonded PDX1 230 gr. JHP
Impact velocity: 889 fps
Average recovered diameter: 0.680"

Vcav = 392.366 fps
Mw = 62.603 grams (2.208 ounces)
Xcm = 36.748 cm (14.468 inches)

This baseline water bag test calculation is w/i 0.5" of Winchester's advertised penetration depth in bare ballistic gel.

Bob

FlyfishermanMike
07-06-2010, 17:51
FWIW - Buffalo Bore is now using Montana Gold bullets in their 10mm loads (180grn), as is Double Tap. They are claiming results from R&D testing are as good or better than XTP's. Any thoughts?

This pisses me off! I've e-mailed back and forth to BB and Montana Gold. BB says the MG HP is just as good as a GD. However MG says they use a heavier alloy in the HP's and although they will expand they weren't designed to. I understand that getting components is though right now but at least inform the customers that they're getting sub-par bullets.

^^ike