Teflon and bullets? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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emt1581
06-25-2010, 23:25
I remember when I was in middle school one of the teachers was talking about the "rules" of war. One of them was that you weren't allowed to use "teflon bullets". He mentioned something about the bullet slipping right through body armor and not spreading out...then again, that was middle school so who knows.

What's the truth about teflon and bullets? Do some spray/coat FMJ bullets and it has some armor piercing effect? Will ordinary teflon spray do such a thing?

I've just never seen such a thing in the world of ammunition.... :dunno:

Thanks!

-Emt1581

furioso2112
06-26-2010, 00:17
competitive shooters coated some bullets with teflon and figured out that they chronoed faster, so used them. Somebody else tried a tefloned bullet on a bullet proof vest (kevlar, IIRC) and it went through. Word got out, some legislator got ahold of the info, made a stink about it, they were illegalized. Never one reported instance of any person, vest or not, being shot with a teflon-coated bullet. Still illegal. That's my understanding of the sitiation. Cheers.

emt1581
06-26-2010, 00:26
competitive shooters coated some bullets with teflon and figured out that they chronoed faster, so used them. Somebody else tried a tefloned bullet on a bullet proof vest (kevlar, IIRC) and it went through. Word got out, some legislator got ahold of the info, made a stink about it, they were illegalized. Never one reported instance of any person, vest or not, being shot with a teflon-coated bullet. Still illegal. That's my understanding of the sitiation. Cheers.

So spraying the bullets with teflon (then allowing them to dry) makes them armor piercing (against soft armor I'm assuming)?

Interesting info. I'm not sure it's something I'd do other than at the range just to see it work. Plus in a SD shoot, I'm sure it'd mean certain defeat civilly if the other side got ahold of such info. Still...interesting info nonetheless. ;)

Thanks!

-Emt1581

Merkavaboy
06-26-2010, 01:55
The KTW (named after the designers Kopsch, Turcus & Ward) is the ammo that everyone is referring to when they speak of "Teflon" and "cop killer bullets" in a single breath. The KTW was made in many calibers with various bullet shapes and bullet materials.

The green Teflon (black teflon for several large bore calibers) material added to the bullets was designed to actually grip smooth surfaces such as glass and metal, and not to make it "slip" easily through kevlar.

Refer to the following article in which Paul Kopsch was interviewed about the KTW bullet.

http://www.scfirearms.org/2ndamend/ammo.txt

SargeMO
06-26-2010, 02:12
Teachers, quite often and unfortunately, plant seeds of 'knowledge' which isn't.

481
06-26-2010, 08:31
So spraying the bullets with teflon (then allowing them to dry) makes them armor piercing (against soft armor I'm assuming)?

-Emt1581


No. The miniscule amounts of Teflon left after the solvent carrier evaporates after traveling down the bore and through whatever atmosphere it would encounter prior to striking a target is insufficient to induce any such effect.

The KTW rounds that Merkavaboy alludes to are coated with a much thicker coating of Teflon that is in a solid, more mechanically stable, state and is mechanically bonded to the bullet's jacket. The trace amounts found in firearms solvents/lubes are not bonded to the bullet jacket substrate material in any way and will simply not remain there throughout the flight of the bullet.

Scamp
06-26-2010, 10:43
http://www.scfirearms.org/2ndamend/ammo.txt

Interesting read...


So...anybody have some of these rounds for collecting purposes?

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg68/Scamp1971/ktw20collection.jpg

emt1581
06-26-2010, 11:57
No. The miniscule amounts of Teflon left after the solvent carrier evaporates after traveling down the bore and through whatever atmosphere it would encounter prior to striking a target is insufficient to induce any such effect.

The KTW rounds that Merkavaboy alludes to are coated with a much thicker coating of Teflon that is in a solid, more mechanically stable, state and is mechanically bonded to the bullet's jacket. The trace amounts found in firearms solvents/lubes are not bonded to the bullet jacket substrate material in any way and will simply not remain there throughout the flight of the bullet.

I see what you're saying.

But couldn't reloaders just melt/adhere sheets of teflon to the surface of the bullet? I mean teflon isn't exactly titanium. Any fool can work with it to achieve a desired purpose...no?

Thanks!

-Emt1581

emt1581
06-26-2010, 11:59
The green Teflon (black teflon for several large bore calibers) material added to the bullets was designed to actually grip smooth surfaces such as glass and metal, and not to make it "slip" easily through kevlar.


What do you mean by that? The teflon was meant to actually slow down/catch the bullet in barriers rather than help it penetrate? I don't see the reasoning/use for it....which is why I'm confused.

Thanks!

-Emt1581

481
06-26-2010, 12:28
I see what you're saying.

But couldn't reloaders just melt/adhere sheets of teflon to the surface of the bullet? I mean teflon isn't exactly titanium. Any fool can work with it to achieve a desired purpose...no?

Thanks!

-Emt1581

In theory, yes. But we all know how theory often differs from reality, don't we? :)

Any fool? Well, I expect that trying something like this without the proper licensure and technical resources and experience might be something in a fool's domain.

Trying something like this (all technical issues aside like procuring the appropriate material, achieving a bond, tolerances and load development, etc.) is also likely to land one (depending upon the laws in your jurisdiction) in serious trouble with BATFE and the .gov and may even cost you your freedom.

Hell, even discussing it might pose a problem in certain jurisdictions. (outside the U.S.)

The fact that KTW has done it (other manufacturers have also) proves the technology is mature enough to be fielded, but again this begs the question, "Why attempt to do so?" :dunno:


Not harshin' on you here either; just some points to ponder.

:)

emt1581
06-26-2010, 12:55
In theory, yes. But we all know how theory often differs from reality, don't we? :)

Any fool? Well, I expect that trying something like this without the proper licensure and technical resources and experience might be something in a fool's domain.

Trying something like this (all technical issues aside like procuring the appropriate material, achieving a bond, tolerances and load development, etc.) is also likely to land one (depending upon the laws in your jurisdiction) in serious trouble with BATFE and the .gov and may even cost you your freedom.

Hell, even discussing it might pose a problem in certain jurisdictions. (outside the U.S.)

The fact that KTW has done it (other manufacturers have also) proves the technology is mature enough to be fielded, but again this begs the question, "Why attempt to do so?" :dunno:


Not harshin' on you here either; just some points to ponder.

:)

Oh I agree with you.

I was just curious if...

1) It was easily done

2) It was really vest-defeating/armor piercing material

3) Such bullets were already available (seems only a demilled round or two for collectors...but looks like it could still be pulled for use)

Thanks!

-Emt1581

M1A Shooter
06-26-2010, 13:18
how would the teflon coating differ from moly coated bullets? moly is used very regularly.

Jeepnik
06-26-2010, 14:07
The KTW (named after the designers Kopsch, Turcus & Ward) is the ammo that everyone is referring to when they speak of "Teflon" and "cop killer bullets" in a single breath. The KTW was made in many calibers with various bullet shapes and bullet materials.

The green Teflon (black teflon for several large bore calibers) material added to the bullets was designed to actually grip smooth surfaces such as glass and metal, and not to make it "slip" easily through kevlar.

Refer to the following article in which Paul Kopsch was interviewed about the KTW bullet.

http://www.scfirearms.org/2ndamend/ammo.txt

So here's the question. Since no cops have been killed with this round, shouldn't the media have been brought up short for incorrect reporting?

emt1581
06-26-2010, 14:11
So here's the question. Since no cops have been killed with this round, shouldn't the media have been brought up short for incorrect reporting?

Of course not!! Remember we're talking about bullets and guns...and the media NEVER makes mistakes in such arenas...let alone corrections/retractions. :whistling:

-Emt1581

Merkavaboy
06-26-2010, 14:27
What do you mean by that? The teflon was meant to actually slow down/catch the bullet in barriers rather than help it penetrate? I don't see the reasoning/use for it....which is why I'm confused.

Thanks!

-Emt1581

My understanding is the Teflon helps the bullet "grip" smooth surfaces at oblique angles better than standard bullets. It's the bullet's velocity, design and hardness that contributes to it's penetration ability.

It might help answer your question if you read Paul Kopsch's statement in the link I provided. I'm not very well versed in the development and design of KTW's as I'd like to be.

454ThunderGod
06-26-2010, 14:34
Generally speaking, No.

No magic coating of teflon or any other silly substance will turn an ordinary bullet into an armor piercing round.

A bullet's ability to penetrate either hard surface, or thick flesh, is soley proportionate to the construction of the bullet itself, the type of materials used in its construction, and the type of bullet shape it is to become.

The secondary condition is its velocity, of which teh requirements differ from hard surface penetration, to thick flesh penetration.

9mm +p+
06-26-2010, 23:41
Interesting read...


So...anybody have some of these rounds for collecting purposes?

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg68/Scamp1971/ktw20collection.jpg

As a matter of fact I have located some from time to time which have come home with me:supergrin: I've only got revolver calibers though have never found any of their auto stuff, fortunately the ammo vendor that had them did not know what they were and thought they were junk ammo and were priced accordingly. I readily helped him out of that junk ammo.

DJ Niner
06-27-2010, 07:58
I see what you're saying.

But couldn't reloaders just melt/adhere sheets of teflon to the surface of the bullet? I mean teflon isn't exactly titanium. Any fool can work with it to achieve a desired purpose...no?

Thanks!

-Emt1581Adding any thickness to the diameter of a finished bullet is a recipe for higher-than-normal pressures during firing, and a potential KaBoom. Construction and sales of armor-piercing handgun ammunition is tightly controlled by law in the U.S., as said above, so experimentation is not a good idea.

Atomic Punk
06-27-2010, 08:24
i recalled a different original purpose for the teflon coating. the bullets had a hard bronze core and the softer teflon helped the bullet gain traction in the barrel grooves

http://www.alphadogweb.com/firearms/copkillerbullets.htm

Jim Watson
06-27-2010, 10:03
The KTW Teflon coated bullets go back before the wide use of soft body armor. The intent was to provide cops with AP capability against criminals in cars or buildings. At first they limited sales to government agencies but a profiteer sued them for restraint of trade to get some to sell to his survivalist clients. It took several years for them to come to the attention of the media and other anti-gunners.

The Teflon coating improved penetration in some target materials but not all, and not in Kevlar.

Most of the AP capability was their hard construction.
First production was a tungsten core in a copper half jacket.
Second production was a hardened steel core in a copper half jacket.
The Teflon coating is not thick enough to take the rifling, these harder-than-gun barrel cores depended on the copper half jacket to take the rifling and protect the bore.
Third production was a solid bronze bullet.


The USMC did some work with Teflon coated service rifle bullets at one time. First trials gave the idea that velocity would be higher and barrel life longer, but the results could not be duplicated and they quit fooling with it.

emt1581
06-27-2010, 10:32
The KTW Teflon coated bullets go back before the wide use of soft body armor. The intent was to provide cops with AP capability against criminals in cars or buildings. At first they limited sales to government agencies but a profiteer sued them for restraint of trade to get some to sell to his survivalist clients. It took several years for them to come to the attention of the media and other anti-gunners.

The Teflon coating improved penetration in some target materials but not all, and not in Kevlar.

Most of the AP capability was their hard construction.
First production was a tungsten core in a copper half jacket.
Second production was a hardened steel core in a copper half jacket.
The Teflon coating is not thick enough to take the rifling, these harder-than-gun barrel cores depended on the copper half jacket to take the rifling and protect the bore.
Third production was a solid bronze bullet.


The USMC did some work with Teflon coated service rifle bullets at one time. First trials gave the idea that velocity would be higher and barrel life longer, but the results could not be duplicated and they quit fooling with it.

Wow! Lots of info there! Thanks for sharing.

What use would the military have with them? Aren't they banned for use in war?

Thanks!

-Emt1581

emt1581
06-27-2010, 10:34
Adding any thickness to the diameter of a finished bullet is a recipe for higher-than-normal pressures during firing, and a potential KaBoom. Construction and sales of armor-piercing handgun ammunition is tightly controlled by law in the U.S., as said above, so experimentation is not a good idea.

I thought about that extra thickness. It wouldn't work for 9mm but for some of the bullets that have slight differences in diameter, you could just use a lesser caliber. For example...with rifles you could use a .222 or .223 bullet instead of a .224 to make a .223 round. My thousandths might be off but you get the idea.

-Emt1581

481
06-27-2010, 11:19
Of course, there was also the French THV ('Tres Haute Vitesse' which translates as 'Very High Velocity') AP design.

It was essentially a full wadcutter design with a tapered penetrating blunt tipped projection and was fabricated of bronze (basically an alloy of 90% Copper, 7% Tin and 3% various metals) that weighed about 45 grains in 9mm and had a muzzle velocity of 2035 fps. The .45 version pushed a 60 grain bullet to the same (2035 fps) velocity.

Barrel wear, high pressure issues and expense made it a "short-lived" proposition.

windplex
06-27-2010, 11:35
I know from industry experience that dupont was on a push to get teflon into as many products as possible -- far afield of frying pans.

dupont officials told me to breath it is to die quickly. Be careful with aerosol formats. Have seen it applied to pots and pans in a factory settintg and the set up makes sure you cannot breath it.

the (an american) factory where it is made has plume software incase it burps out some to forecast the danger areas.

I would not toy with it.

chippy
06-29-2010, 17:31
Anyone remember the old "Nyclad" bullets? They also had a reputation for defeating body armor. I still have 50 rounds of .357mag Nyclad, but not the factory box. They are hollow points, but I don't know the bullet weight. Anyone know?

Merkavaboy
06-29-2010, 21:18
Anyone remember the old "Nyclad" bullets? They also had a reputation for defeating body armor. I still have 50 rounds of .357mag Nyclad, but not the factory box. They are hollow points, but I don't know the bullet weight. Anyone know?

The Nyclad ammo was first introduced to the market under the Smith & Wesson brand name. Later, Federal Cartridge purchased the rights to the Nyclad ammo.

Nyclad ammunition uses an all-lead bullet covered with a nylon-type material which was designed to reduce bore leading and to reduce the amount of airborne lead particles at the firing line and down range.

The Nyclad nylon bullet coating does nothing to increase the bullet's penetrative ability on any soft or hard barriers.

The Nyclad .357Mag loads by both S&W and Federal used a 158gr SWC or SWC-HP.

chippy
06-30-2010, 11:24
Kinda' figured that magic body armor penetration thing was BS. Our local LE guys tested the theory and decided it was not true. That's where I got the left over ammo from. I wondered if the HP was 158grn as well, but never pulled one to check. Thanks for the input.

Jim Watson
06-30-2010, 13:06
What use would the military have with them? Aren't they banned for use in war?
-Emt1581

Teflon coated bullets are not "banned for use in war." They don't cause any worse wound than a naked bullet. The original Hague provision was against bullets that expanded or flattened on impact, causing worse wounds. I think it was largely a negotiating gimmick to screw the British out of the descendants of the original Dum Dum bullet and the Webley Manstopper.

As said, the Marines checked out coated bullets because they thought velocity would be higher and barrel life longer.

Mwinter
06-30-2010, 13:34
The Nyclad revolver cartridge was offered in 125gr .38 HP, 158 .38 SWC, .158gr SWCHP38 +p, and a few other variants. They are all dismal at defeating body armor or most intermediate barriers....this is esp. true of the 125gr .38 HP, which was made from a softer alloy and had a larger HP (previous versions did not expand well).

Many of the collector cartridges which are touted as AP or designed as such are very poor penetrators of modern soft body armor. Since little or no true AP is legally imported or manufactured following the 1980s ATF restrictions, the great designs and advances are seen mostly in Europe. Hirtenberger, RUAG, Bofors, and some other folks are making nice AP pistol and PDW stuff.

When I was in the academy, I was told that Black Talons were AP, and banned as such. Lots of misinformed opinions are held by 'experts'.