Aiming properly with standard sights [Archive] - Glock Talk

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jadickson
06-28-2010, 22:24
Noob question here. I have a generation 3 model 19 with original, unmodified sights. I am confused about the proper way to aim.

Below are 3 different pictures I made, with the pistol aimed at the red "bulls eye"... which one is correct? In picture #1, the sights are exactly under the bulls eye. In #2, the sights are halfway covering the bulls eye. In #3, the white dot on the front sight is covering the bulls eye.

I know the real answer to this question is "take your gun to the range and find out what works best for you." I am just trying to get a base proper technique to work with when I do go to the range.

http://www.saradicksonpiano.com/sights1.jpg

http://www.saradicksonpiano.com/sights2.jpg


http://www.saradicksonpiano.com/sights3.jpg

Krosy
06-28-2010, 22:40
If you want to make a nice group on a piece of paper I prefer method # 1. YMMV.

vis35
06-28-2010, 22:41
#2 is correct. #1 is the old bulls eye hold but you will be shooting low, at the bottom of the bull’s-eye, guns sighted to shoot that way are sighted to shoot high so you will hit the center of the bull. #3 is supposedly fast but imprecise, you cannot see the bull’s-eye.

R*E
06-28-2010, 22:46
#1 for bullseye shooting
#2 for real world shooting
#3 is wrong

Adjuster
06-28-2010, 22:53
Number three is correct for Glock style combat sights. That is standard combat aiming and exactly how the Glock sights are designed and what they are designed for. Your point of aim should cover your point of impact exactly as you have pictured. Number 1 is the reason why many new Glock shooters report the pistol is firing low and they think something is wrong with it.

glockaviator
06-28-2010, 22:55
Glad we cleared THAT up!

chukb
06-28-2010, 22:58
^LOL.

#2 for me.

jadickson
06-28-2010, 23:03
I think I've been doing #2.

HGxyz
06-28-2010, 23:10
Wait until you are my age - you won't be able to tell the difference after you have focused your eyes on the front sight.

sicbstrd
06-28-2010, 23:27
#2 for me and mine

table
06-29-2010, 02:02
sorry

Last Rites
06-29-2010, 02:50
#3 is how you're supposed to shoot ANY Glock. The Glock weapon system will shoot reliably and consistently every time when you are using target acquisition method #3.

By covering the point of impact with your Glock barrel end sight and lining up the rear sight system 'U' to be even at the top of the 'U' with the forend barrel dot (illustration #3); your target acquisition is perfectly executed as it was intended to be done with the Glock weapon system.

I can't tell you how many times there has been that I've heard a new Glock owner proclaim their inability to hit their target with their new Glock. And sadly enough, they go on to assume that because of their lack or inability to 'hit anything' with it, that the weapon system is naturally by deduction a "pos".

Obviously, all of us Glock enthusiast out there know this is the furthest thing from the truth. It's just a matter of getting used to or familiar with a different manner of doing things then what some folks are accustomed to. Sometimes you've just gotta let folks use whatever method they are most comfortable and reliable with when you're practicing at the range and polishing up on your target acquisitions.

HD_Renegade
06-29-2010, 06:03
Talk about confuuuuussssssing!!!!!!! I think that a laser would be the thing to have on this one???

Gallium
06-29-2010, 06:20
It does not matter. What is important is that you index your sights against the target, stick with that index, and do not disturb the sight picture thru trigger press all the way until the bullet leaves the barrel.

Below, a recent target I shot with a G26 - a 1" group, two hands on the gun, otherwise unsupported (do feet count?), shooting generic Remington UMC (250 round pack) of FMJ at an indoor range.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t275/ml2010/62510.jpg





and the size of those price stickers, compared to a penny and a quarter for contrast...
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t275/ml2010/targetdots.jpg

ron59
06-29-2010, 06:31
It does not matter. What is important is that you index your sights against the target, stick with that index, and do not disturb the sight picture thru trigger press all the way until the bullet leaves the barrel.


Great shooting Drew, but I'll have to disagree with you to an extent.
#2 and #3, yes, but NOT #1.

#1 is the BULLSEYE "6 o'clock hold". It REQUIRES that you "index" with the bullesye being the same exact size and the same exact distance from you always to work. Example, if the "target" is 8 inch circle at 25 yards and you dial your gun in to hit the center of the circle.... it will not work if the circle is at 7 yards. Period.

OP... #2 is what you really should be using. Don't "hide" the target with the sights.

jadickson
06-29-2010, 07:08
I am grateful for the replies so far. Apparently this question was worth asking after all, as it has generated an interesting discussion.

user
06-29-2010, 07:13
My mistake - I read 19-3 (a S&W revolver) rather than Gen. 3 model 19.

Gallium
06-29-2010, 07:19
Great shooting Drew, but I'll have to disagree with you to an extent.
#2 and #3, yes, but NOT #1.

#1 is the BULLSEYE "6 o'clock hold". It REQUIRES that you "index" with the bullesye being the same exact size and the same exact distance from you always to work. Example, if the "target" is 8 inch circle at 25 yards and you dial your gun in to hit the center of the circle.... it will not work if the circle is at 7 yards. Period.
.


Thank you kind sir. :), hope it's not too hot in NC, like the near 100 *F it hit in NY yesterday. :faint:

As for your claim, I too will have to respectfully disagree.

Here (below) is the ballistic data for a Speer Lawman 147gr 9mm bullet.

For a zero at 25 yards, the drop at twice that distance is 1.5".

For a 115gr bullet, that drop is .8"

It has not been my experience, that shooting with the bullseye 6 o'clock hold impacts precision much, under 25 or even 50 yards (max I have shot with a pistol).

Best regards, :cool:
'Drew

Gallium
06-29-2010, 07:20
Speer data: 147GR 9mm Lawman bullet

http://www.speer-ammo.com/ballistics/detail.aspx?loadNo=53620


and for 9mm
http://www.speer-ammo.com/ballistics/detail.aspx?loadNo=53615

Bert.40
06-29-2010, 07:38
That's the reason I like adjustable sights. I prefer to see the target. Example 1 or 2. When reloading it's possible to develop the right load to hit at point of aim. I shoot USPSA competitions where the targets are for the most part 25 yards and less, sometimes a 50 yarder is used. I'm past the age where it's difficult to focus on the front sight so I rely on my point and shoot instincts. I'm a lousy shot with factory loads or haven't found the right one. I reload for all my handguns.

Dave T
06-29-2010, 09:39
Everyone is overlooking bullet weight and distance. Those two variables can change the correct sight picture to be any of the above.

Dave

engineer151515
06-29-2010, 09:45
Tagged.

Want to hear the views.

Nemesis Lead
06-29-2010, 09:51
Number 1 is probably what your Glock is set up from the factory for. If you want to hit the bullseye, aim 2 inches low at 10 yards (YMMV).

Number 2 is ideal--but you want point of aim to be point of impact at 25 yards. You will be a little low (at most the distance from the centerline of your bore to the top of your sights) shooting from 0 to 24 and then generally spot on out to 40 yards (depending on the bullet you are firing). You will need to change your sights to get this, however. If you want to stick with Glock sights, get a lower rear Glock sight.

Most competition shooters shoot number 2. A number 1 setup is a disaster for any distance shooting as it is hard to determine where your bullets will strike (paradoxically, you will hit higher at 25 yards than at 10 yards and higher still at 35 yards). A number 3 setup will put you increasingly lower the farther out the target is. You also can't see what you are aiming at.

Butch
06-29-2010, 10:05
Sight alignment: Front and rear sight aligned so the front sight fills in the rear notch evenly on both sides, and flat across the top.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0603/ButchG17/sight%20pictures/Glock_Sight_alignment.jpg



Sight picture with six o'clock hold: Sights aligned like above with the top edge of the front sight at the bottom edge of the bullseye. The reason for this hold is to provide a specific, repeatable point of aim as compared to trying to aim at an undefined point in the 'middle' of the target, which is very difficult to find on a consistent basis, especially at distance.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0603/ButchG17/sight%20pictures/Glock_Sight_Pic-1.jpg



Sight picture with three 'bullet holes' impacting the target at the point of aim: This is how most people would like to have their gun sighted in for most purposes - 'point of aim = point of impact'. Competitive bullseye shooters would have their gun sighted in so the bullets impact above the point of aim in the center of the bullseye so they can get the best score.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0603/ButchG17/sight%20pictures/Glock_Sight_Pic-holes.jpg



Using the six o'clock hold allows the shooter to do his best/most consistent shooting which gives the best shot groups. Good shot groups make it much easier to make accurate sight changes so the point of aim can be 'moved' to the point of impact.

Butch
06-29-2010, 10:06
A gun sighted in like this can be used to hit most anything, like a steel plate at 11 yards:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0603/ButchG17/sight%20pictures/Glock_Sight_onplate.jpg



Or a humanoid target up close:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0603/ButchG17/sight%20pictures/Glock_Sight_onsilh-close.jpg



Or a humanoid target further away:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0603/ButchG17/sight%20pictures/Glock_Sight_onsilh-far.jpg



Or a pop(soda) can at 50 yards:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0603/ButchG17/sight%20pictures/Glock_Sight_onpopcan-50yds.jpg

Butch
06-29-2010, 10:08
Also, the 'bullseye' target doesn't *have* to be round for those of you who may have a phobia* about bullseye shooting, it can be any shape as long as it gives the ability to aim at a specific, repeatable spot on the target. It should be about the same width as the front sight when aiming at it, and big enough to see at your chosen shooting distance without having to focus on it (your visual focus needs to be on your front sight).
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0603/ButchG17/sight%20pictures/GLOCK_SIGHT_pic-triangle.jpg

* Unfortunately all too many police/tactical/self defense trainers these days don't see the value of bullseye type target shooting, they seem to think it 'has nothing to do with COMBAT shooting', and they couldn't be more wrong. Use of the bullseye target is simply the best way for a shooter to learn the basic skills required for accurate shooting.....sight alignment and trigger control.

It's also a great aid in getting your gun sighted in correctly! We're not shooting S&W or Colt revolvers with sights that are *really* fixed anymore, we can and SHOULD adjust the sights to fit the individual shooting the gun.

Gallium
06-29-2010, 10:26
Thank you kind sir. :), hope it's not too hot in NC, like the near 100 *F it hit in NY yesterday. :faint:

As for your claim, I too will have to respectfully disagree.

Here (below) is the ballistic data for a Speer Lawman 147gr 9mm bullet.

For a zero at 25 yards, the drop at twice that distance is 1.5".

For a 115gr bullet, that drop is .8"

It has not been my experience, that shooting with the bullseye 6 o'clock hold impacts precision much, under 25 or even 50 yards (max I have shot with a pistol).

Best regards, :cool:
'Drew

Speer data: 147GR 9mm Lawman bullet

http://www.speer-ammo.com/ballistics/detail.aspx?loadNo=53620


and for 9mm
http://www.speer-ammo.com/ballistics/detail.aspx?loadNo=53615

Everyone is overlooking bullet weight and distance. Those two variables can change the correct sight picture to be any of the above.

Dave


Am I on your ignore list Dave? :supergrin:

sciolist
06-29-2010, 13:05
It does not matter.

It doesn't matter if you're only trying to repeat the placement of the previous shots (as with your target) or if you're shooting at a target so close that the "bullseye" appears larger than the front sight (as with Butch's "humanoid target up close").

But it matters a great deal if you happen to be shooting at a small or distant target (like Butch's soda can at 50 yards).

My understanding is that the Glock factory sights are meant to be aligned per O/P #3. My assumption is that the logic behind this is for defensive-range shooting, the target will be larger than the F/S. You're supposed to keep both eyes open and focus your vision on the F/S - so you essentially end up with a white dot superimposed on the target.

But if your reference target is a 5" diameter circle, at somewhere around 30 yards, the rectilinear profile of the F/S completely occludes the circle - so with the O/E sight alignment, you have to interpolate. Still not a huge deal, as the F/S is roughly the size of the target. Move back to 50 yards, and the 6:00 hold is a pretty big advantage.

GLOCKdNlocked
06-29-2010, 13:14
Didn't read everything but I shot my glocks for the first time yesterday and I was using #3. Had no prior shooting/aiming experience except for laser.

Thanks!

Butch
06-29-2010, 13:59
My understanding is that the Glock factory sights are meant to be aligned per O/P #3. My assumption is that the logic behind this is for defensive-range shooting, the target will be larger than the F/S. You're supposed to keep both eyes open and focus your vision on the F/S - so you essentially end up with a white dot superimposed on the target.
You were told incorrectly. If your rounds impact the target at a spot below the top edge of your front sight, you need a higher rear sight. You accurately state the reason for this below.

But if your reference target is a 5" diameter circle, at somewhere around 30 yards, the rectilinear profile of the F/S completely occludes the circle - so with the O/E sight alignment, you have to interpolate. Still not a huge deal, as the F/S is roughly the size of the target. Move back to 50 yards, and the 6:00 hold is a pretty big advantage.
Not a huge deal except that it's hard to hit a target you can't see, and if it moves and you can't see it move cuz your sight is in the way, it's gonna be real hard to hit.

Beads
06-29-2010, 14:25
Great discussion! I'm voting #1 per Butch's great explanation. What was bow I was taught. But dying to try #2 nxt IDPA match

ron59
06-29-2010, 15:08
Thank you kind sir. :), hope it's not too hot in NC, like the near 100 *F it hit in NY yesterday. :faint:

As for your claim, I too will have to respectfully disagree.

Here (below) is the ballistic data for a Speer Lawman 147gr 9mm bullet.

For a zero at 25 yards, the drop at twice that distance is 1.5".

For a 115gr bullet, that drop is .8"

It has not been my experience, that shooting with the bullseye 6 o'clock hold impacts precision much, under 25 or even 50 yards (max I have shot with a pistol).

Best regards, :cool:
'Drew

Drew, it's not about bullet drop. #1 was "designed" by BULLSEYE shooters, and requires a KNOWN sized target. It works like this. At 25 yards, the target is 6 inches in diameter. You aim at the bottom of the black circle, the bullet hits 3" above that, dead center. POI is NOT POA with the 6 o'clock hold. They are ALWAYS shooting at the same size target. ALWAYS a 6" diameter circle. They did this, because the black sights would get "lost" within the blackness of the target circle, so they would hold on the BOTTOM of the circle, where the black circle met the white of the background. It made it easy to get the vertical hold correct. So you're zero'ing your POI to be a certain distance off from your POA.

Now let's talk about you and me. So I sight my gun in with a 6" diameter target yesterday, but today I want to shoot at a target that is EIGHT inches in diameter. I aim at the bottom and my bullet hits 3" above that, but instead of being dead center, it is now 1" low. Or my eyes are bad and I want to shoot at a TEN inch diameter target. I aim at the bottom, bullet hits 3" above that... now TWO inches below dead center.

Understand now ?

6 o'clock hold was intended for a KNOWN sized target, and a known distance. Not for just any old target.

En9999
06-29-2010, 15:14
My vote is for #3. I get the best results that way (and I shoot with both eyes open).

sciolist
06-29-2010, 15:19
You were told incorrectly. If your rounds impact the target at a spot below the top edge of your front sight, you need a higher rear sight.

Glad I checked back before going out to shoot today. :-)

I'm still not shooting well enough to be sure of the O/E alignment, but both my guns (26 and 19) are O/E plastic.

My better groups are about 1.5" at 15 yards, down to about 1" at 7 yards, and there's almost always some pretty good delta between centroid of group and center of target. I have shot a couple targets where the delta was fairly small, but of course they could have been inferior shooting (as opposed to superior, as I had imagined).

When I get out to 30 yards, the group is spread to about 7", and the center/center delta is still floating around... basic point is I'm not consistent enough to be sure of the POI/POA relationship - especially if we're talking about tangent to top of F/S vs center of F/S dot.

Will try to pay close attention to this today. Thanks for the specific comment. Am trying to work on other stuff too, so sometimes I get a little overwhelmed.

powder86
06-29-2010, 16:16
so it sounds like everybody's right and everybody's wrong... i still don't know where to aim. :faint:

njl
06-29-2010, 17:24
Butch's explanation makes sense...but in my hands, I find Glocks shoot more like a cross between pictures #2 and #3....whether they have the stock plastic sights or night sights.

Butch
06-29-2010, 17:30
so it sounds like everybody's right and everybody's wrong... i still don't know where to aim. :faint:
If you check the profile of the person doing the post, you may find info that can help you decide if the person appears to have the knowledge and/or experience to back up what they say.

:)

Bren
06-29-2010, 17:34
If you want to make a nice group on a piece of paper I prefer method # 1. YMMV.

Which is unfortunate, sionce the "6 o'clock" target hold isn't what your Glock, or any other fixed sight combat pistol is sighted in for.

#2 is how your sights are lined up when it comes out of the box.

njl
06-29-2010, 17:41
Hey...just carefully shoot your Glock at a relatively close target, say 7yds, and see where its point of impact is relative to your point of aim. When it comes down to it, where it shoots for you is more important than where anyone tells you it should shoot.

Brucev
06-29-2010, 17:51
Also, the 'bullseye' target doesn't *have* to be round for those of you who may have a phobia* about bullseye shooting, it can be any shape as long as it gives the ability to aim at a specific, repeatable spot on the target. It should be about the same width as the front sight when aiming at it, and big enough to see at your chosen shooting distance without having to focus on it (your visual focus needs to be on your front sight).
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0603/ButchG17/sight%20pictures/GLOCK_SIGHT_pic-triangle.jpg

* Unfortunately all too many police/tactical/self defense trainers these days don't see the value of bullseye type target shooting, they seem to think it 'has nothing to do with COMBAT shooting', and they couldn't be more wrong. Use of the bullseye target is simply the best way for a shooter to learn the basic skills required for accurate shooting.....sight alignment and trigger control.

It's also a great aid in getting your gun sighted in correctly! We're not shooting S&W or Colt revolvers with sights that are *really* fixed anymore, we can and SHOULD adjust the sights to fit the individual shooting the gun.

This and your previous post are excellent.

ede
06-29-2010, 17:56
If you check the profile of the person doing the post, you may find info that can help you decide if the person appears to have the knowledge and/or experience to back up what they say.

:)

all i know for sure is Butch drinks cheap whisky, or at least accepts gifts of cheap whisky. now i need to go a fluff up my profile a little.

Gallium
06-29-2010, 18:15
This is madness. :)

The picture I posted was aiming at a penny sized dot (a penny is 0.75") out at 15 yards.

WHO CARES if it's a six inch target, or a 8" target, or if you use a 6*clock hold or a center hold? Shoot your gun, understand the relationship between the weight of the bullet you are shooting, the amount of powder charge, the alignment and height of the sights, and the relationship between what you aim for, and where you hit.

How complicated is that, really? I have guns with fiber front sights, where (one two of them) the front fiber falls out, and I simply look THRU that hole to my target, while keeping the entire front sight correctly aligned within the rear sights, while simultaneously aligned/indexed to the target. Other times, I use a hold where the top of the front sight is nesting right at where I want to hit.

At 15 yards (my home range goes out to 50feet) there is *virtually* no difference between if I use a six o clock hold, or if the front sight covers the intended target. I know where the sights are pointed, and can make the mental manipulations according.

One more thing.... :tbo: I have a G26 that is shooting to the left. I said as much in a previous post. A few folks suggested that maybe I was flinching, my fundamentals were askew, etc.

I have another identically configured G26. @ 15 yards it shoots the same 1.5-2" groups, but is dead on.
Ditto for my G17, G19, G34.
Almost the same for my G27, G23, G22

Sometimes guns don't shoot where we aim. When that happens, I compensate to make the hit.

'Drew

Butch
06-29-2010, 19:46
all i know for sure is Butch drinks cheap whisky, or at least accepts gifts of cheap whisky. now i need to go a fluff up my profile a little.
:rofl::supergrin::rofl:

Rogue
06-29-2010, 20:32
Hey...just carefully shoot your Glock at a relatively close target, say 7yds, and see where its point of impact is relative to your point of aim. When it comes down to it, where it shoots for you is more important than where anyone tells you it should shoot.

+1 for this, and I will say that over the course of trying out several models in a day I notice a slight variation in where a given glock shoots. The range's rental model 30 shoots as in pic#3 (perfectly, with slight keyholing), while the new model 30 I recently picked up shoots as in pic #1. I find that slightly annoying, but as each makes a ragged hole at 10 yds, I am not going to complain very much...

YMMV,

Rogue

joel_conley
06-29-2010, 20:55
#1 for me.

It's not putting the sights at the bottom of the target as much as putting the round on top of the sights.

This is #1 to me
This is 6:00 hold to me

Hope this helps....it's always better to see what your shooting at

jadickson
06-29-2010, 22:05
#1 for me.

It's not putting the sights at the bottom of the target as much as putting the round on top of the sights....



I guess that is really the question I was trying to ask in my original post: at 10 yards, is a Glock designed to put the round above the sights (like in picture #1), or will the round hit where the sights are covering (like in picture #3), or is it somewhere in between (#2)?

I guess that's just asking the same question in a different way.

joel_conley
06-29-2010, 22:30
I guess that is really the question I was trying to ask in my original post: at 15 yards, is a Glock designed to put the round above the sights (like in picture #1), or will the round hit where the sights are covering (like in picture #3), or is it somewhere in between (#2)?

I guess that's just asking the same question in a different way.


My guns seem to shoot #1 at 7 10 and 15 yards....I own a G19, sigP6 and a few more.

Butch is the man, here is something from an old thread.

most are intended to have the bullets hit the target at point of aim, which is the top center of the front sight, like these:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0603/ButchG17/sight%20pictures/Glock_Sight_Pic-holes.jpg

But that doesn't mean that's always the way they turn out, and that's why Glock makes differing height rear sights, so you can sight the gun in to make the bullets hit where you want them to.

eh...just read the thread LOL
http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1038078

Butch
06-29-2010, 22:43
I guess that is really the question I was trying to ask in my original post: at 15 yards, is a Glock designed to put the round above the sights (like in picture #1), or will the round hit where the sights are covering (like in picture #3), or is it somewhere in between (#2)?

I guess that's just asking the same question in a different way.
IF it were reasonably possible that all Glocks came out of the factory perfectly sighted in, the bullets would impact the target at a spot that is right at the top center edge of the front sight....point of aim = point of impact.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0603/ButchG17/sight%20pictures/Glock_Sight_onplate.jpg

It's not reasonably possible to do that for basically three reasons.

1. All ammo will not do it.....different bullet weight, and velocity, make for differing points of impact.

2. Spending the time and effort to specifically sight in every gun would significantly increase the cost of the gun.

3. All people do not 'look at' the sights the same way, they have differing vision, and use differing sight pictures.

And that's why everyone should sight in their own gun with their own choice of ammo.

joel_conley
06-29-2010, 23:12
Butch said:1. All ammo will not do it.....different bullet weight, and velocity, make for differing points of impact.


http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/TaurusPT92_files/image018.jpg

Notice the 100 grain powRball ammo (#4)....Glaser safety slugs and Extreme shock ammo with weights like 80/85 grain and 1500 FPS will shoot ALOT different (lower) than others.

Just trying to put a picture up to help make sense.

EDIT:

joel_conley
06-29-2010, 23:23
........................

fredj338
06-30-2010, 11:01
Number three is correct for Glock style combat sights. That is standard combat aiming and exactly how the Glock sights are designed and what they are designed for. Your point of aim should cover your point of impact exactly as you have pictured. Number 1 is the reason why many new Glock shooters report the pistol is firing low and they think something is wrong with it.
Sorry, not buying it. If I cover my target, I can't see where the rounds will impact. Possibley fine for fast 7yd shooting, but move to precision shooting, say head shots @ 10yds, if you cover the target, you have no idea where you are holding.:dunno: This goes for any iron sights, any gun, POA/POI.
#3 is how you're supposed to shoot ANY Glock. The Glock weapon system will shoot reliably and consistently every time when you are using target acquisition method #3.
Again, not true. POA/POI. POA has nothing to do with reliability BTW.

Gallium
06-30-2010, 12:53
Sorry, not buying it. If I cover my target, I can't see where the rounds will impact. Possibley fine for fast 7yd shooting, but move to precision shooting, say head shots @ 10yds, if you cover the target, you have no idea where you are holding.:dunno: This goes for any iron sights, any gun, POA/POI.

...


Come again? Are you serious??

At 15 yards, a generic front sight does not cover a 2" circle. I can put my front sight on a 1" circle at 10 yards, and put 10 rounds in that circle, without ever "looking" at the target. So long as your ability to hold the gun steady on the target is intact, you can easily make those hits without having to see where the bullets go.

'Drew
:cool:

sciolist
06-30-2010, 14:36
Come again? Are you serious??

At 15 yards, a generic front sight does not cover a 2" circle. I can put my front sight on a 1" circle at 10 yards, and put 10 rounds in that circle, without ever "looking" at the target. So long as your ability to hold the gun steady on the target is intact, you can easily make those hits without having to see where the bullets go.

'Drew
:cool:

At 10 yards, the OE plastic F/S on my 26 obstructs roughly 3" of target width. I can just barely see 3:00 and 9:00 on a 3.5" circle, with O/P target picture #3.

Took another look at this situation while shooting yesterday, and there's no question that my guns are sighted in for picture #3. I did not realize Glock made the OE rear sights in different heights. Presumably both of mine are 6.5mm, as that's stated as standard for 9mm pistols.

So, should I go to the 6.9mm OE rear to achieve 6:00 hold with 115g range ammo at 5-35 yds? Guess I'll have to buy the tool and start experimenting.






Seems like there are four issues here:

Understanding the intent of the OE design
Understanding the geometry of one's own target picture
Putting your group on center (POI = POA)
Shooting a tight group
I would expect the first two items to be the same. Doesn't seem like rocket science to point the gun at a target. But... the voice of experience says the guns are sighted for 6:00 Hold, and they both shoot on center for me. The rear sights mic at 6.5mm. So I guess you have to go with your own personal flow. I'll get someone of known superiority to shoot them when I get a chance. If I'm doing something 'wrong', it would be nice to know for sure, even if it's not going to be corrected.

I shot two quick reference targets from 7 yards yesterday - both with 1-1/8" groups. The Center Hold group was .5" below target center. The 6:00 Hold group was 1" below. Numerous other targets were all shot at Center Hold, and all groups were very close to target center - all the way out to 30 yards. Regarding the 7-yard targets, the delta between Center Hold and 6:00 Hold pictures is nearly the radius of the groups. Seems unlikely I would be that much less able to align something 21' from my nose than 2' from my nose (?).

Misty02
07-01-2010, 23:10
Thanks for the education. Iíve always used #3, I have to try the other two to see if I do better. That I recall I havenít shot beyond 20 yards with a pistol either, itís about time I moved beyond that. Unless I have been going religiously every week I have to start at 7 yards, after a few rounds I can start moving to 15 yards.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
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Question: If you havenít gone to the range for say, two or three weeks, will your first 4 shots be within 1Ē at 15 yards every time? (I just wish to get a general idea as to how bad I am at this)<o:p></o:p>

Gallium
07-02-2010, 04:08
...
<o:p> </o:p>
Question: If you havenít gone to the range for say, two or three weeks, will your first 4 shots be within 1Ē at 15 yards every time? (I just wish to get a general idea as to how bad I am at this)<o:p></o:p>

You meant "within 10" at 15 yards", right? :cool:

Most folks are not great shots. Proof of this are the hundreds of posts on which barrel/trigger/connector is better etc etc.

How well you retain shooting skills varies widely from person to person. In my experience, the folks who are able to settle down, CENTER themselves, and completely focus on the task at hand are those who tend to keep the edge honed for longer. They are also more likely the ones to realize that good shooting is a process, and that every shot counts, and should be fired during that learning process with full concentration and adherence to the fundamentals.

If you (speaking broadly) are "learning" to shoot, and you're shooting more than 100 rounds in an hour, or you're shooting for more than an hour, you're probably doing something off kilter. After "so many" rounds, or units of time, there are rapidly diminishing returns to scale for your investment.

'Drew

Bren
07-02-2010, 04:40
I have never seen more useless opinions in one thread by people without even fundamental shooting knowledge, pretending to be experts.

packsaddle
07-02-2010, 08:17
Just shoot one 10mm round in the general direction.

No need to aim (http://www.lahc.edu/classes/chemistry/arias/nuclear-explosion.jpg).

Kiladonut
07-02-2010, 08:30
I always thought you were supposed to shoot a glock sideways and not use the sights:dunno:

Misty02
07-02-2010, 10:24
You meant "within 10" at 15 yards", right? :cool:

Most folks are not great shots. Proof of this are the hundreds of posts on which barrel/trigger/connector is better etc etc.

How well you retain shooting skills varies widely from person to person. In my experience, the folks who are able to settle down, CENTER themselves, and completely focus on the task at hand are those who tend to keep the edge honed for longer. They are also more likely the ones to realize that good shooting is a process, and that every shot counts, and should be fired during that learning process with full concentration and adherence to the fundamentals.

If you (speaking broadly) are "learning" to shoot, and you're shooting more than 100 rounds in an hour, or you're shooting for more than an hour, you're probably doing something off kilter. After "so many" rounds, or units of time, there are rapidly diminishing returns to scale for your investment.

'Drew

No, I actually mean all 4 first shots within a 1Ē group. I see the targets showing that here often. Like your 4 shots that could nearly be covered by a penny. Those are the results I would like to see in my shooting each and every time.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
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I enjoy going to the range, when we go we spend an hour or slightly more. The first year and a half we went every single week without fail, now we are lucky to go twice a month and there have been times when two or three weeks have gone by without being able to go. I purposely donít take more than 200 rounds per person, when we are out of ammo we leave. For those times we take more toys Iíll add 50 or so rounds for each other weapon.<o:p></o:p>
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Now, to the part that I donít know if it is normal or not; if I go every single week my first 5 shots at 7 yards will remain within 2 to 3 inches. The first shot rarely hits the center of the bullís-eye, it is usually the third or fourth shot that does. After that I can move to 15 yards and maintain it within 2Ē or less groupings. My aim improves the longer Iím shooting. At some point the bullís-eye will no longer be visible and the remainder of the shots will go through the already existing opening. Iíve never gone beyond 2 hours so I donít know if it would deteriorate after that from being tired.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Is it normal to need some warming up to increase accuracy each time or does that mean Iím not proficient enough and need to go back to weekly visits until I can attain at least 2Ē groupings consistently from the first shot? There are people I shoot with that do the 1Ē grouping from the get go (at any distance), but their experience and skills surpass mine by leaps and bounds. At times I think I should be at that level already and get a tad discouraged. Other times I take in consideration the fact theyíve been shooting for decades and just see their results as my goal to work toward.<o:p></o:p>
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I use #3 in the OP as my way to aim and try to avoid black targets as they donít help me much with the contrast. Iím willing to try #1 and see if my results improve.<o:p></o:p>
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Bren, go ahead and add your two cents worth, please. Iíll be thankful to anyone willing to take the time to teach me to do better.<o:p></o:p>

Jeff82
07-02-2010, 10:55
Wanna learn to shoot better? Start scoring your targets. (Goes without saying: Get targets with scoring rings.) Don't just nonchalantly shoot groups and make up your mind one way or another based simply on that. That's only one aspect of accurate shooting. Score them and then try to improve. Hold your feet to the fire. You'll start learning what works and what doesn't.

At least you'll start asking the right questions.

Then you'll start finding out what you have to do to shoot more accurately.

zxracer3
07-02-2010, 12:02
Good thread. I was contemplating different sight pictures when I was trying to purchase new sights a couple of weeks ago. Here are some of the questions that I still have...

With plain black target sights I use sight picture #2 as there is no dot to focus on. With any sort of dot or night sights I use sight picture #3. In any low light (such as an indoor shooting range) or night shooting I have found that sight picture #1 or #2 would be difficult to ascertain as it is tough to determine where the top of the sight would be.

Can someone explain why sights would have dots if you are not supposed to aim using the dot? Those of you that say sight picture #3 causes the front sight to block the target are you shooting with both eyes open? I have noticed that with both eyes open the front sight/dot is superimposed over the target, therefore the target is not blocked by the front sight/dot. I feel as though the #2 sight picture would be best for someone who shoots with only one eye open. Since handguns should be shot with both eyes open wouldn't it be faster to shoot using the dot (#3) then it is to search for the front tip of the sight?

Misty02
07-02-2010, 12:22
Wanna learn to shoot better? Start scoring your targets. (Goes without saying: Get targets with scoring rings.) Don't just nonchalantly shoot groups and make up your mind one way or another based simply on that. That's only one aspect of accurate shooting. Score them and then try to improve. Hold your feet to the fire. You'll start learning what works and what doesn't.

At least you'll start asking the right questions.

Then you'll start finding out what you have to do to shoot more accurately.

Thank you, Jeff. Iíll give that a try. Iíve concentrated on hitting the bullís-eye (or the point of aim in silhouettes) and remaining as close to it as I possibly could through the shooting session. However, Iíve never scored them. I can logically see how in doing so I would leave the range each time with some knowledge as to whether there is overall improvement or not.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
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I donít know what the right questions would be, but I wouldnít mind being pointed in the right direction. As the OP, I want my skills to improve and youíre right, asking the right questions would greatly assist with that goal.<o:p></o:p>
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.<o:p></o:p>

riceh8r
07-04-2010, 10:26
Night sights are for low light conditions period. Your focus should be on the front sight and the target is blurry. Sight alignment and trigger control are the two most important fundamentals of shooting. If you are not training with dummy rounds while shooting you are cheating yourself. A lot of people develop a flinch and don't even know it. Even experienced shooters will flinch sometimes.

Butch
07-04-2010, 13:48
If you are not training with dummy rounds while shooting you are cheating yourself.
And if you're not sure what to do with the dummy rounds, take a look at my blog.







<-- Click

R*E
07-04-2010, 14:06
I have never seen more useless opinions in one thread by people without even fundamental shooting knowledge, pretending to be experts.
+1 I don't know why I kept reading, it's like watching a train wreck.

joel_conley
07-04-2010, 14:11
I have never seen more useless opinions in one thread by people without even fundamental shooting knowledge, pretending to be experts.

http://smackamack.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/donkey-23.jpg

riceh8r
07-06-2010, 21:52
And if you're not sure what to do with the dummy rounds, take a look at my blog.







<-- Click

Good blog. Thanks. I usually get someone to load them for me.