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RWROD
07-02-2010, 23:17
I was wondering if anyone used a red dot sight on there shotgun. I was thinking about mounting one on my work 870. Pros and Cons? Time it takes to turn it on when I need it (jumping out of the car)? I look at a 870 as a 30yrd weapon with 00 buck. I see that TruGlo makes a TFO front sight for the 870 for like $80, a better option?

MrMurphy
07-02-2010, 23:56
If you're running an Aimpoint, probably an H-1, turning it on is not the problem as they run five years constant on.

I wouldn't use a dot other than an Aimpoint for serious purposes, and yes, I have used one on duty in harsh conditions for years, on rifles. On a shotgun, honestly.......most people with buck are fine with a bead, or ghost ring. A dot scope will speed up the acquisition slightly for distance work with slugs over most iron sights, but at social distances (under 20 yards) a good XS Big Dot bead would work well and cost less. Same idea (dot=bang).

For rifles, any of the current Aimpoint models (M2, 3, 4, T-1) all work well.

MTPD
07-03-2010, 06:38
Tru-Glo makes a great red dot and 870 mount combo for about $80 if you don't want to spend the bucks for an AimPoint.

Aceman
07-03-2010, 16:48
Circle dot is a better reticule for SG, IMO. Try Eotech.

ScrappyDoo
07-03-2010, 17:39
I would love an aimpoint ... So expensive tho. But really ? You just leave it on ALLL the time ? That's awesome and redonk at the same time !

m24shooter
07-03-2010, 21:18
If you're running an Aimpoint, probably an H-1, turning it on is not the problem as they run five years constant on.
That depends on what setting you have it on. It can be as short as 6 or 7 months.
You can still run it pretty high and have it last for a year or two.

MrMurphy
07-04-2010, 01:22
Setting 7 or 8, which is the "default" setting will last about 50-80,000 hours.

Not only is that direct from Aimpoint (not a manual, the head of mil/LE sales, as well as various other people I've worked with over there profesionally) but I know more than one guy whos' had a T-1 turned on for several years straight. My old M2 ran for 3 years turned on 90% of the time and it only has a 10,000 hr estimated life.

Eotechs have problems, known, accepted, I run a couple in an evaluatory role, but for WORK gun.......Aimpoint. I won't trust anything else because i've seen everything else fail or know those who have. For a hunting gun, sure, run a Truglo. If it's a work gun, as he stated.......Aimpoint.

Either that or an XS bead. Eotechs, aside from failure rate, sit far too high over bore for most shotgun stocks.

Darkangel1846
07-04-2010, 10:08
At 30 yards I don't think you need a red dot, if your using OO Buck...... now if your using slugs and need to be more accurate maybe.

m24shooter
07-04-2010, 13:04
Murphy-
Agreed on the Micro. I've had one at 7 and 8 for over a year. I've dialed it up higher for a few hours a couple of times. I won't get/use another RDS except for a Micro from now on. I like them. I use the "book values" as a guideline for changing batteries but I've left the one I use most on for the able year with the same battery.
I've also got a post-Rev F Eothingy on a carbine that's never given me probs but I'm about half expecting it to.

ScrappyDoo
07-04-2010, 13:48
But the $1,000 ACOG doesn't use batteries , and how does it last ? I am just very interested in the difference. Believe it or not a sweet combat optic is something I really want but cannot afford at all n

MrMurphy
07-05-2010, 00:40
You're not even in the right conversation.....................

ACOGs use tritium and fiberoptic and are magnified. You "can" use one at room distance but i would never choose to if i had the option unless it was one of the baby 1.5X models maybe.

The LaRue offset T-1 mount was made specifically for this reason for a .mil unit.

ScrappyDoo
07-05-2010, 06:05
Well ok don't be a duck im just tryig to learn

Bullman
07-05-2010, 10:08
I think the right choice for a shotgun would be something like the Armson OEG. The older ones had tritium in them, and I understand that now they are a seperate business from Trijicon they are working on getting their own tritium inserts. I have been thinking about getting one if these for my 930.

MrMurphy
07-05-2010, 10:36
I'm not being "a duck" merely noting that you're voicing an ACOG question in the shotgun forum.

The Armson OEG was a good idea 30 years ago, however with modern optics and the fact that not everyone is strong-side dominant......not really a fan.

Bullman
07-05-2010, 12:06
It just seemed to me a better sight for a shotgun than anything else. I have never really warmed up to the see through red dot sights yet, maybe I am their only fan, doesn't seem like there are a lot of companies making OEGs these days. Plus Trijicon dumped them so they must not have been making any money at that either.

MrMurphy
07-06-2010, 01:22
With both eyes open, the concept works the same. But the tube type is more usable by non strongside dominant eyed people (left dominant eye shooting righty if it's not extremely dominant).

It's not like looking through a conventional rifle scope, you're looking at the target and bringing the dot onto it. I've spent.....hell thousands of hours from 2005-2008 staring through an Aimpoint at just about everything from vehicles and aircraft and people running around clearing rooms. It's very intuitive and quick. Having messed around with an OEG, I think the Aimpoints are the next generation improved idea of the same concept.

babarracing
07-06-2010, 12:56
:wow: I was goig to buy a Burris "Speed Bead" for my Rem 870. But when I bought a XS "Big Dot" recommended here at GATE "Night Vision Forum" I was so pleased with how big, brite and ez it is for my 63 year old eyes to find I do not need the $262 dollar expenditure when this $60 XS Big Dot is so great.
P.S. I don't even know where XS is yet alone give a darn if they get your money. But I do care about my "Peers" safety and just want to help other Geezers like myself be prepared!

MrMurphy
07-07-2010, 01:14
XS is based out of Dallas.

The Speed Bead is simply a Burris microdot. They are visible, but run time is under 200 hours and you must remove it to replace the battery and thus rezero it.

Not a fan except for skeet or whatever.

babarracing
07-08-2010, 10:35
Thanks for that battery replacement :rofl:Rezero fact. That sucks.

ScrappyDoo
07-10-2010, 14:40
Questions about the Aimpoints:

This is the type of thing that would be good for an AK, right? Because if popular opinion is that AK's are "pie-plates at 100yrds" / "Minute-of-man" type rifles, I'm not really going to be having any use for a magnified sight right? So the Aimpoints are not magnified and therefore good "Combat" sights for a "Combat" rifle?

Regardling the battery life, when you talk about the hours, thats just the BATTERY life right? They keep on lasting if you replace the batteries, right? So even if its 6 months, a year, 6 years, If I replace the battery it will last for a while (indefinitely? years? longer than me? ) etc. I ask because I have a new AK-variant and while I am happy with the $80 NcStar reflex on it, I would like an Aimpoint sure if they are that good and will last.

I also always wanted a Trijicon ACOG, but you mentioned they are magnified (is it 3, 3.5, 4 or something like that?) but I also want a M4- style AR RIfle, can't afford that either. But I will someday, and I figure with a longer ranger, more accurate AR I would have more of a use for the ACOG's magnification... Maybe if I can save for that CDNN M&P 15 I would get an ACOG for that.

Back to my off-topic question, The Aimpoints would be good for the AK right? Long lasting and accurate? I know a poster on a NJ Forum that put an Aimpoint Micro H1 on his new Saiga conversion and he loves it. I would think I would want the "Comp M2" on my AK but I would certainly be grateful for suggestions!

MrMurphy
07-11-2010, 00:13
AKs can be more accurate than people think but 3 MOA-4 MOA is about average (minute of Communist). An Aimpoint's run time is measured in hours. An M2 series is good at standard 6 or 7 setting for 10,000 hours typically, which is several years continously on. If you leave it off, even better.

An M4, M4s or T1/H1 series is rated for 80,000 hours. That's in excess of four years constantly on, on the original battery. I know more than one guy who's left an Aimpoint on by accident in the gunsafe, deployed for 15 months come back and it's still running fine.

They are made for snap shooting at close to medium ranges. While I do know someone with a confirmed Aimpoint kill using an M4 at a distance he really should not have taken the shot at (multiple shots required on a moving bad guy in Afghanistan) realistically, if you can see the target, you can engage it. 200-300m is no problem with an M4, with an AK i'd say 200m simply because the ballistics of the round. I've not shot an AK at 300m with an optic, so I won't guess. It won't make the gun more accurate, but it'll make hits easier and faster than with the irons, and about the only thing that will take the older M2's out of action is a lucky hit on the knob (they still work, but adjusting the brightness now requires a multitool or pliers) or a direct bullet strike.

An Ultimak rail will have some trouble with most picatinny mounts as the underside isn't made quite right, I would investigate either PRI or Midway industries AK rails, and use a T-1 or H-1 with a LaRue LT661 low mount. It won't cowitness but it's off the gun in less time than it takes to change a mag if it ever went down due to a hit. Literally flip the lever and it's gone, but otherwise, it's rock solid.

Aimpoints work well for shotguns with slugs as well going back to the original topic, but it really does depend on your engagement range, if you're using primarily buckshot i'd simply use XS Ghost Rings or Big Dot sights.

ScrappyDoo
07-11-2010, 12:04
Mr Murphy,

Does the scope die after those hours are up, completely, or you just pop in a new battery?


and I am also interested in the ACOG.. but the tritium dies right? Like I have Trijicon night sights for my G23, I was told to expect useful life of 7 years ...

Would that be like the ACOG too, yyou spend $1g, ITs lit up for so many years, and then becomes uesless?

Thanks Mr. Murphy for your help.

Jay S.
07-11-2010, 12:37
Mr Murphy,

Does the scope die after those hours are up, completely, or you just pop in a new battery?


and I am also interested in the ACOG.. but the tritium dies right? Like I have Trijicon night sights for my G23, I was told to expect useful life of 7 years ...

Would that be like the ACOG too, yyou spend $1g, ITs lit up for so many years, and then becomes uesless?

Thanks Mr. Murphy for your help.

The optic will not die when the battery runs out. Just replace the battery and carry on.

ScrappyDoo
07-11-2010, 12:48
The optic will not die when the battery runs out. Just replace the battery and carry on.


OK See now that makes a big difference to me...

$500 for an Aimpoint , which is regarded as one of the best, and it lasts for years on a single battery, and then i can pop in a new bttery, that's a good deal imho!

Do they have quick mounts? I.e., one of my $100 NcStar Red Dot + Laser Sights has a quick release mount. So they set it up and sighted it in at the store, and now I can snap it off, and snap it on , I have maybe 3 rifles with rails and even my Mossberg 930 SPX, it snaps on all of them and as far as the 3 rifles, it keeps the co-witness. I haven't fired it on the shotgun cause i'm afraid it would blow it up.

But could I theoritically by a nice, quality Aimpoint and put it on each rifle as I need it? Or is it a one weapon, dedicated type deal?

Thanks again for the info!

I have an AK Variant and also a S&W M&P 15-22... both have two different NCStar scopes on them (AK has a NcStar 4 reticle Reflex sight, the 15-22 has the Red Dot + Laser )... but if I could get a real nice Aimpoint to share between the two, and they last forever, then its worth that $500 to me.

Thanks for all the help again, I appreciate it, don';t take me wrong I just like soaking up info from this site... It's very great as a resource.

MrMurphy
07-12-2010, 00:23
The AK and AR won't use the same mount, different heights.

A LaRue LT150, LT129 will work for an AR for M2/M3/C3 series. The M4/M4s need the LT659. The T-1/H-1 need the LT660.

An AK would need an LT152 for the M2/M3 crowd and the LT661 for the T-1/H-1.

For the .22, get a cheapo like a Vortex or Primary Arms, that's decent for plinking and training but not going to break the bank. Use the Aimpoint for serious use.


ACOGs do run on tritium but mostly run on fiberoptic. Unless it's pitch dark it's hard to see the tritum, which is good for 10-15 years. In any sort of light (even moonlight, dimly) the fiberoptic works, you can also take a mini-chemlite and tape it over it in an emergency. That'll keep you going at night.

PlasticGuy
07-12-2010, 07:55
...200-300m is no problem with an M4, with an AK i'd say 200m simply because the ballistics of the round. I've not shot an AK at 300m with an optic, so I won't guess. It won't make the gun more accurate, but it'll make hits easier and faster than with the irons...

An Ultimak rail will have some trouble with most picatinny mounts as the underside isn't made quite right, I would investigate either PRI or Midway industries AK rails, and use a T-1 or H-1 with a LaRue LT661 low mount...

Aimpoints work well for shotguns with slugs as well going back to the original topic, but it really does depend on your engagement range, if you're using primarily buckshot i'd simply use XS Ghost Rings or Big Dot sights.
I almost always agree with your posts, but not with your AK/Aimpoint assessment. The AK is very effective at 300 yards with an Aimpoint. In fact, it can hit at 400+ with a little bit of hold-over. Also, the Ultimak is a great system. I've made these 300-400 yard hits with an Aimpoint on an Ultimak. No issues with losing zero, and it sits significantly lower than the PRI and MWI rails (that I've also tried, and sold off). The Ultimak also adds no bulk and virtually no extra weight. I do agree with your suggesting of a T-1 or H-1 on with a Larue mount though. It doesn't get any better than that.

As for battery life, we run Aimpoint M2's and M3's on our Colts at work, and leave them on constantly. We replace the batteries every 6-12 months, which sounds similar to the battery life you're seeing with yours. The newer M4's and T-1's should double or triple that. My most used AK has an Aimpoint M3 on it. I turn it on when I take it out of the safe (which may mean leaving it on for a week when going to a class or going camping), and usually remember to turn it off when I put it away. I don't know how long the batteries will last, but I've had it for about 2 1/2 years and it still has the original batteries in it.

I've also got some time on a 12" 870 and a 14" 11-87 with Aimpoint T-1's on them, and they were awesome! They are as fast as a bead and more accurate than ghost rings. I can highly recommend them. I don't think it would work as well with the full sized Aimpoints though, because I don't think you'd get a decent cheek weld. They're just too tall.

MrMurphy
07-12-2010, 10:23
I was simply stating that I've never shot an AK with a dot that far out. So, no opinion.

The Ultimak is a good rail. However, as I stated.... LaRue Picatinny mounts (and others) can have problems achieving solid lockup on them because the bottom side of the rail is kind of "fat", so modification of the rail may be necessary. Not necessarily "bad" but more of something you need to be aware of.

PlasticGuy
07-13-2010, 12:55
The Ultimak is a good rail. However, as I stated.... LaRue Picatinny mounts (and others) can have problems achieving solid lockup on them because the bottom side of the rail is kind of "fat", so modification of the rail may be necessary. Not necessarily "bad" but more of something you need to be aware of.
I've used Aimpoint, Eotech, GG&G, Daniel Defense, and Burris Tactical mounts for optics and lights on my Ultimak rails with zero problems. I've used the Larue mount, but not on an Ultimak rail yet so I can't comment on that particular rail/mount combo. I haven't seen a problem with anything else though.

Devin459
07-14-2010, 01:24
Eotechs, aside from failure rate, sit far too high over bore for most shotgun stocks.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but are we talking about the aimpoint micro series? If not, how does an aimpoint sit any lower than an eotech? Because unless you have the compm4, you have to buy a seperate ringed mount, unlike eotechs that have the picatinny mount built in. I have never used an aimpoint on a shotgun but It seams that the 65 moa circle around a dot might be an all around better reticle for fast target aquisition than a single 2 moa dot when talking shotgun distances. Not to mention for quick defense purposes, aimpoints are more cumbersome and liable to snag on something. Just my opinion, could be totally wrong.

PlasticGuy
07-14-2010, 02:02
Correct me if I'm wrong, but are we talking about the aimpoint micro series? If not, how does an aimpoint sit any lower than an eotech? Because unless you have the compm4, you have to buy a seperate ringed mount, unlike eotechs that have the picatinny mount built in...
You have the answer in your question. Because the EoTech has a built in mount that is designed to be at the right height for an AR15, it's always sitting up high. The Aimpoints can be used with rings of different heights, so you can drop it right down onto the rail on a shotgun.

MrMurphy
07-15-2010, 00:16
And a T-1/H-1, top of rail to center of dot in an LT661 mount is 0.84" tall. Not very tall at all. That mount is designed for shotguns like Benellis, and various rifles and SMGs not needing a tall mount.