What's in Your Magazine? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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ColCol
07-05-2010, 19:00
Curious-would you trust your reloads for SD more than commercial ammo? In light of the failures I've experienced and read about lately, I'm inclined to think the former.

mojo67
07-05-2010, 19:24
Curious-would you trust your reloads for SD more than commercial ammo? In light of the failures I've experienced and read about lately, I'm inclined to think the former.

Don't reload yet for my 357 Sig, so currently my mag is filled with factory Federal 125 gr HST's. It's a wicked little son of bit#h of a round.

Snapper2
07-05-2010, 19:44
Curious-would you trust your reloads for SD more than commercial ammo? In light of the failures I've experienced and read about lately, I'm inclined to think the former.

The failures can be on both sides. I guess it should depend on what you are more accurate with and can shoot the best with. Bullet design is another factor. Some of the top designs are not for sale to hand load.(HST,SXT,and most bonded bullets). We do have XTP, Gold dots,and Barnes to hand load so the drop ain't that bad(if there is one). If I did carry hand loads:whistling: it would be something I tested and checked for accuracy.

KiloBravo
07-05-2010, 20:36
"What's in my magazine?"




Ammunition. :supergrin:

Seriously though, I only carry factory jacketed hollow point ammo. I am partial to Gold Dots, but like any good quality cartridge with good street creds.

fredj338
07-05-2010, 21:14
It's not that I worry about the reliability, I handload the rifle rounds I hunt dangerous game with, I carry factory because the bullets are often better (HST, any of the bonded JHP) & the ammo is very reliable. Cost is not a factor, I buy one box to function test & one to carry.

ff/emt
07-05-2010, 21:50
I read somewhere that using reloads could set you up for a civil lawsuit in court if used in SD. Now I don't remember the name of the article-I think it was in Combat Handguns and I am not a lawyer or play one on tv. Just entered my teeny little mind when I saw your post. IMO I would carry and do carry a round factory loaded and labeled for defense. I have Hornady Critical Defense in my G23 and the same for my 9's.

FlyfishermanMike
07-06-2010, 00:12
I read somewhere that using reloads could set you up for a civil lawsuit in court if used in SD.

Many people have heard this as have I but no one seems to able to reference a reliable source. I really don't see how it would be an issue though. A bullet is a bullet. Why would my reloads make me more at fault?

fredj338
07-06-2010, 00:16
Many people have heard this as have I but no one seems to able to reference a reliable source. I really don't see how it would be an issue though. A bullet is a bullet. Why would my reloads make me more at fault?

IT doesn't make you more at fault, but the argument goes like this: The shooting is justified, no criminal charges. Then the family of the dead or crippled BG sues you for using excessive force by shooting said BG w/ "custom, high powered JHP designed to kill the attacker", or "factory ammo wasn't good enough for the defendant, no, he needed to make is own super killing ammunition". Yeah, it's probably never going to happen, but then with all the things that can go wrong in a shooting trial, why add gasoline to that fire?:dunno: Remember, a civl suite only requires majority to convict, not a unanamous decision.

rohanreginald
07-06-2010, 06:14
IT doesn't make you more at fault, but the argument goes like this: The shooting is justified, no criminal charges. Then the family of the dead or crippled BG sues you for using excessive force by shooting said BG w/ "custom, high powered JHP designed to kill the attacker", or "factory ammo wasn't good enough for the defendant, no, he needed to make is own super killing ammunition". Yeah, it's probably never going to happen, but then with all the things that can go wrong in a shooting trial, why add gasoline to that fire?:dunno: Remember, a civl suite only requires majority to convict, not a unanamous decision.

Doesn't he castle doctrine, which most states have adopted, negate the civil claim. I know in my state that if I act within the law for self defense, I am protected from the civil side of the law as well.

James Dean
07-06-2010, 09:02
If its 9mm its Speer Gold dots
If its .40 its Speer Gold dots

BadAndy
07-06-2010, 09:16
I keep my CW9 and M&P 9 loaded with 124gr +P Gold Dots. They're great bullets and as far as I know, the only bonded bullets available for reloading.

rome2240sw
07-06-2010, 09:24
currently 180gr HSTs in my Glock 22.

481
07-06-2010, 09:50
IT doesn't make you more at fault, but the argument goes like this: The shooting is justified, no criminal charges. Then the family of the dead or crippled BG sues you for using excessive force by shooting said BG w/ "custom, high powered JHP designed to kill the attacker", or "factory ammo wasn't good enough for the defendant, no, he needed to make is own super killing ammunition". Yeah, it's probably never going to happen, but then with all the things that can go wrong in a shooting trial, why add gasoline to that fire?:dunno: Remember, a civl suite only requires majority to convict, not a unanamous decision.

Fred,

An excellent perspective here.

In response to other's concerns above, Castle Doctrine (at least in Ohio as it exists under ORC) has both criminal and civil aspects of indemnification.

As a retired LEO (who has actually investigated numerous felonious assaults and a few homicides), it doesn't matter what you use (handloads, commercially produced ammo, a steak knife or an old axe handle) to defend your life or that of a family member.

If you're right, you're right and if you are wrong....well....you are going to prison.



ETA the OP's question-

What's in Your Magazine?

For me its-

Glock 17: Hornady 147 gr. XTP JHPs

USP45: Hornady 230 gr. +P XTP JHPs

alexanderg23
07-06-2010, 10:01
win PDX1's in the 23 180 gr I think

ColCol
07-06-2010, 17:49
In response to other's concerns above, Castle Doctrine (at least in Ohio as it exists under ORC) has both criminal and civil aspects of indemnification.

Same situation here in TN.

This legislation allows an individual to use force to protect him or herself wherever they have a legal right to be. The bill also provides civil immunity for those who defend themselves from criminal attack.(Castle Doctrine" bill HB 1907).

"Legal right to be" to me means my house, my property and my car above all.

I'm sort of surprised to see few use Ranger T ammo. That's my choice for commercial ammo in 9mm and 45 with 127 gr +P+ in the 9mm and 230 gr +P in the 45.

HAMMERHEAD
07-06-2010, 19:50
I would trust my handloads. I load rather slowly with a turret press, and inspect every powder charge. The sizing die ensures there's a flash hole in every piece of brass. A cartridge gauge and primer inspection finish the deal.
I've only had one commercial hollow point load fail, a 10mm Silvertip several years ago, but never had any issues with handloads.
I've had quite a few Win. USA FMJ and Mag Tech FMJ errors.

In my magazine?

Winchester Super X .38 Super Silvertips, perhaps not the ultimate SD load, but I just don't worry about which brand too much. I worry about hitting the bullseye.

HAMMERHEAD
07-06-2010, 20:03
FWIW, a recent issue of Handloader magazine claims there is no liability whatsoever from using handloads that are similar to SD ammo. They do cite the case where one guy got sued for using 10mm, but it was not because it was a handload, IIRC, it was an issue of excessive power/damage.
I don't claim Handloader is right, just wanted to pass it along.

Zombie Steve
07-06-2010, 21:57
Civil protection here too with the "Make My Day Law" (yes, it's really called that).

I have factory ammo that I carry, I have some handloads that I carry. Depends on caliber and my stash of premium factory stuff. I haven't bought any factory ammo for years. Doubt I'll ever get it again.

BOGE
07-06-2010, 22:16
...If you're right, you're right and if you are wrong....well....you are going to prison...


Not always true. Depends on the jury.

http://freerepublic.com/focus/news/1678124/posts

The aforementioned decision was reversed, but after he spent three years in the state pen.

H.L. Mencken said that a jury is the stupidity of one multiplied by twelve. In a shooting EVERYTHING depends on the jury if you go to trial. Remember the O.J. trial, right? :whistling:

481
07-07-2010, 08:16
Not always true. Depends on the jury.

http://freerepublic.com/focus/news/1678124/posts

The aforementioned decision was reversed, but after he spent three years in the state pen.

H.L. Mencken said that a jury is the stupidity of one multiplied by twelve. In a shooting EVERYTHING depends on the jury if you go to trial. Remember the O.J. trial, right? :whistling:


The underlying premise of your response is flawed. I never said that the system is perfect.

Hey, if you wanna hang your hat on the "short stub" of jury nullification/activism you are free to go ahead and do that. :dunno:

I, however, am not so cavalier about what effects my freedom.

While these exceptional instances do occur, they don't happen with any great regularity...which is why they are referred to as "exceptional". Competent prosecutorial (or defense counsel) control can mitigate, and in some cases eliminate, these issues.

Having actually charged (and participated in the successful prosecution thereof) such offenses and speaking directly from that professional experience, I'd rather be "right" than "lucky".

BOGE
07-07-2010, 12:20
...Having actually charged (and participated in the successful prosecution thereof) such offenses and speaking directly from that professional experience, I'd rather be "right" than "lucky".

I agree. However the fact of the matter is that the jury system is flawed because it involves humans. Merely remember that slightly more than 52% of the population voted for Obama. :supergrin:

481
07-07-2010, 13:18
I agree. However the fact of the matter is that the jury system is flawed because it involves humans. Merely remember that slightly more than 52% of the population voted for Obama. :supergrin:

Heh, thanks for reminding me of that. :upeyes: Now I know who to thank for inspiring my next sleepless night as I contemplate the travesties to which I bore witness throughout the course of my LE career. :winkie:


:animlol:

2afreedom
07-07-2010, 13:29
I prefer a street-tested, factory-loaded hollow point commonly used by law enforcement. As such in .40 I use 180 grain Gold Dots.

Dogguy
07-07-2010, 15:23
I carry only factory ammunition.

I no longer handload ammo. Even when I did, I only used factory ammo in defense guns.

When I smoked, I also preferred factory rolled cigarettes to the hand rolled ones.

FM12
07-09-2010, 23:10
Some type of Hollow Point my boss issued to me, 40 S&W for my also issued Sig 229.

MajesticLT03
07-09-2010, 23:13
1 mag has Speer Gold Dot 124 grain HP's

my carry mag has Winchester 124 +P Ranger T's

Glolt20-91
07-10-2010, 01:04
Fred,

An excellent perspective here.

In response to other's concerns above, Castle Doctrine (at least in Ohio as it exists under ORC) has both criminal and civil aspects of indemnification.

As a retired LEO (who has actually investigated numerous felonious assaults and a few homicides), it doesn't matter what you use (handloads, commercially produced ammo, a steak knife or an old axe handle) to defend your life or that of a family member.

If you're right, you're right and if you are wrong....well....you are going to prison.



ETA the OP's question-

What's in Your Magazine?

For me its-

Glock 17: Hornady 147 gr. XTP JHPs

USP45: Hornady 230 gr. +P XTP JHPs

Interesting perspective, from a deputy I spoke with (we hook up from time-to-time and pop a few caps) several years back. He knew I was a big fan of the .357mag, Remington 158gr SJHP that many LEOs carried back in the day of 8% body fat.

Home invasion, felon shot and killed (incapacitation was nearly instant) with a handloaded .357mag/158gr SJHP; also resulting in a very large mess down the entire length of the hallway. Investigators/county attorney's office knew the ammo was handloaded, but that was never an issue in the case.

At a later date during one of their training classes, this home invasion case came up in discussion; not because of the handloaded ammo, instead it was about the destructive amount of wound trauma the SJHP had caused. Their SO carries Glocks in .40S&W, apparently many of the deputies thought the mag had rather awesome performance compared to what they were used to seeing.

Home working on the property or visting neighbors, magazine is filled with handloaded 125gr XTPs ~1500fps 1911 Gov't. Tomorrow there's a bbq at one of my neighbors, they live about 5 miles away and I'll be carrying the .38Super. There will be about 20 men and women present, they all carry and like to shoot, so we get to shoot everyone else's guns.

I go to town a few times a month, my carry in town is 1911 Gov't, .45auto loaded with Winchester 230gr PDX ammo.

Bob :cowboy:

481
07-10-2010, 08:55
There will be about 20 men and women present, they all carry and like to shoot, so we get to shoot everyone else's guns.



Well, that sounds just awful. :whistling: How do you make it through the evening? :cool:

CanyonMan
07-10-2010, 09:14
Well, that sounds just awful. :whistling: How do you make it through the evening?



:rofl:


That's what I was thinking as well. Poor Bob. All that BBQ, and good friends, and shooting every one eles guns all evening. Kinda feel sorry for a guy without a life. I bet he gets through it some how and then gives Desert Dawg half the BBQ bones, and saves the rest for himself to run ballistic test on ! :supergrin: New thread: BBQ bones and water bag penetration testing ! ;)


Well 481 back to all the exciting things you and I have to endure, kids for you, grand kids for me! :faint:


BTW, whats in my mags? In the 45acp (M1911) in town 230gr ball or 230gr XTP's, and lately, I have actually loaded up with the 230gr PDX1. May stay there if ya can believe that. In the 9mm. 147gr WWB JHP's and also 147gr XTP's.

The castle doctrine in Texas cover the guys that has no CHL, in his home or on his property, in the truck/car, and also (which most don't know) a motel room. The latter defined as a "temporary residence." My son and daughter in law just left last night for a trip to a lake a ways from here and will be staying in a little cabin type place. He has NO CHL but covered in car and motel/cabin as well. Actually I only learned of this motel/temp res thing a while back myself. Just threw that in. ;)


Adios




CM

ColCol
07-10-2010, 09:44
The castle doctrine in Texas cover the guys that has no CHL, in his home or on his property, in the truck/car, and also (which most don't know) a motel room. The latter defined as a "temporary residence." He has NO CHL but covered in car and motel/cabin as well. Actually I only learned of this motel/temp res thing a while back myself.

Most interesting. I knew you were covered at home or property but, I thought a license was mandatory once you left home (via car/truck) and/or entered a motel or cabin. I learned something today. Well, all I can say is good for Texas... T for Texas and T for TN!

beancounter81
07-10-2010, 11:10
Factory loads only for SD for me - Federal HST 180 gr in G27, Winchester Ranger T 165 gr in G22.

CanyonMan
07-10-2010, 11:44
Most interesting. I knew you were covered at home or property but, I thought a license was mandatory once you left home (via car/truck) and/or entered a motel or cabin. I learned something today. Well, all I can say is good for Texas... T for Texas and T for TN!


Yeah, your still covered even with NO license in TX, ( I have one and been renewed twice already) as long as your weapon is 'concealed' in the car. Going from car to motel room, you must not head for the coke machine, or ice maker or whatever. You have to go straight to the room. One night or a week, it does not matter, it is where you are setting up resedence at present so your ok.

TN. I was born there, then as a 4-5 year old, my family moved to Okla. which is my home. Now W. Texas. A good deal of my realitives on my wifes side and mine as well are around Whiteville, Bolivar, Middleton, TN. All woodsman and hunters. All little podunk towns.



CM

BlutoBlutarsky
07-10-2010, 12:13
I have used factory and handloaded ammo for carry over the years. I've been rolling my own hunting ammo since the mid 80's. Never worried about liability just whether the round would fire when I pulled the trigger. Currently I carry Hornady Custom 124 XTP 357sig's. In a few short weeks that will change to my hand loaded 124 XTP at a higher velocity.

I am a bit anal about my handloads, for hunting I only use a single stage press, weigh each load individually on an RCBS digital dispenser combo, it gets checked frequently with another digital scale and an Ohaus beam. I debur flash holes and check each batch at the range and with a chrony. I even weigh the bullets I am loading and group them accordingly. My carry loads also only get new, unfired brass. Maybe I should check them a little more closely..:whistling:

fastbolt
07-10-2010, 12:39
When I was a very young man and an avid handloader I was under the impression that my handloads were superior to factory ammunition. Just like most other handloading enthusiasts. ;)

When I finally entered LE I found that handloaded/re-manufactured ammunition was prohibited for use whenever I invoked my peace officer status, except for range practice. I couldn't carry it for on or off-duty use if I was acting within the course & scope of my employment. Just for informal practice & plinking. That made things rather simple and easy to understand. ;)

I've had ample opportunity over the years to see factory new ammunition, re-manufactured ammunition and handloaded ammunition used in various training, practice and qualification settings. While the re-manufactured and handloaded ammunition has represented a very small percentage of the ammunition I've seen used, it's made up the bulk of the malfunctions & feeding problems observed. The typical response I've heard from someone who has experienced a problem with their own, or a "friend's", handloaded ammunition has been that they've never before had a problem with it.

Nowadays, all of the ammunition I use for training, practice and qualification in my various handguns chambered in the more common defensive calibers is factory ammunition. I still have some .44 Magnum & .45 Colt handloads left over from when a trusted family member was doing a lot of reloading, which I occasionally enjoy using for practice (and I used to run the .44's through qualification courses of fire to keep the rust off my big bore revolver skills ;) ), but I also have a decent supply of factory ammunition remaining for those 2 calibers from when I sometimes carried a big bore revolver off-duty.

I have quite a selection of both budget & premium ammunition made by the major companies in my ammunition stock, and I don't get overly concerned about sticking to any one particular brand or hollowpoint design. I like using one or another of the newer "premium" defensive hollowpoint lines, given my druthers, but I've certainly used my fair share of the older style "traditional" hollowpoint loads, too. Sometimes it just depends what's available at hand at the time I'm loading magazines or speedloaders, too. ;)

FinnFanatic
07-10-2010, 14:12
125 gr Speer Gold Dots in .357 Sig
155 gr Federal JHP XM40HB in .40 S&W
95 gr FMJ Win in .380

JBP55
07-10-2010, 14:25
HST is my primary round but I also have plenty Gold Dot and Golden Saber on hand.

ColCol
07-10-2010, 14:39
While the re-manufactured and handloaded ammunition has represented a very small percentage of the ammunition I've seen used, it's made up the bulk of the malfunctions & feeding problems observed.

I think a lot of guys just don't take the care necessary to delivery quality reloads. Some due a superb job and do more than I do...weighing the bullet, etc. The only time I weighed bullets was for rifles. Ive even heard of bench rest shooters weighing primers. I'm from the old school and do things the hard way by today's standards. I have an RCBS Jr press, Lyman 5-0-5 beam scale measure and Lyman DU-O measure powder measure along with an old Pacific case trimmer.

Usually I'll resize and decap in one operation. Next, I use another die to flare the mouth and prime at the same time. After I charge the case with the DU-O measure and check every 5th round or so in the beam sccale to see if I'm still on the money, I screw in the seat die where I seat the bullet. Next operation comes the crimp die. That's four dies doing different jobs and yeah-it's slow but for me it's old hat as that's the way I started with pistol dies.

To date and to my best recollection, the only problem I every had was loading 200 gr LSWC's for the 1911. Of course, with that particular pistol nothing would feed 100% with it. I've had no hangfires, FTF, FTE and no squib loads other than a few FTF problems with the SA 1911.

Unfortunately, I've had more ammo problems in the past few months with factory fodder than with any handload or factory loads from some years back. I never had squib loads, FTF or FTE and not even a bad primer with factory loads up until this year-and, that was with two different manufacturers.

BlutoBlutarsky
07-10-2010, 16:51
The only squib I ever hand in any of my reloads was the first batch I ran over my Dillon 550 with some practice rounds getting it set up. I shot IPSC for 4 years with no other problems from it and still won't trust it for carry or hunting. I use a hand priming tool one case at a time and won't even put powder in several cases using a loading block for my hunting and carry loads. I hit the load number on my dispenser and pour powder and seat the bullet one at a time.
I've got nothing against using factory ammo for carry when it meets my expectations but if the only way I can get the bullet/ velocity combination I want, is to do it my self then that is what I do.

glocknbruce
07-10-2010, 17:35
ive got 16 rounds of Ranger 127 +p+ in my Glock 19 and another 15 in the spare mag

fastbolt
07-10-2010, 17:47
Yep Elijah, I tend to agree that it's the lack of dedication and attention to stringent QC from a personal effort perspective that results in a lot of handloads being found responsible for 'problems'.

Of course, look at the level of attention and questionable skills occasionally demonstrated by various folks when they're driving motor vehicles. :whistling:

If I were more interested in shooting as a leisure activity I'd probably take up my interest in reloading again. As it is, after 20 years of being a trainer and much of the time also being an armorer ... and not being a hunter ... my only interest in shooting runs pretty much just along the lines of keeping my skills current and sharp. I've just lazy enough (and very fortunate) to be satisfied using free factory ammunition for the most part for my 3 'primary' defensive calibers that I shoot quite a bit.

Granted, I still have to buy my own ammunition for 3-4 calibers I use and which are not supported by an agency inventory, but I don't shoot those enough to justify (to me) the expense and time it would take from my other interests & pursuits. Maybe some day.

I certainly appreciate anyone who takes a careful and meticulous approach to handloading.

I suppose it's a shame that I've seen probably more than my fair share of folks who have done otherwise and have created problems for themselves or someone else.

I remember looking at one bunch of reloaded 9mm from someone one time, under a strong magnifying glass, and seeing numerous small stress fractures in the web area. Who knows how many times that brass had been reloaded?

DamienAzrael
07-10-2010, 22:45
I only use factory loads. Currently I have Winchester PDX1 .40 S&W 180 grain rounds in all three of the mags for my Glock 22.

Slivertusk
07-19-2010, 17:42
i use factory loads also. American eagle 115gr for practice. Looking into other types of jhp. I like the magtech 155gr+p, but i want to see of the TAP ammo hornady offers is better

M&P Shooter
07-19-2010, 18:09
G23, 180gr Rem Bonded GS jhp's

aermotor
07-20-2010, 13:02
I'm running Winchester Ranger 230 T-Series' in my G21SF.

ctfireman
07-20-2010, 21:08
Winchester bonded pdx1 & gold dots.