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GunFighter45ACP
07-06-2010, 19:46
Any thoughts on carrying this way? This would be:

1. With an appropriate 1911 thumb break holster.

2. I'm a Southpaw & the pistol in question is one of both sentimental & monetary value that I would not want to modify w/an ambi safety.

glockfan9
07-06-2010, 19:51
wouldnt this be the same way as carrying a loaded glock?

GunFighter45ACP
07-06-2010, 19:56
aside from the exposed hammer, yes it could be similar.

Cerebrus
07-06-2010, 19:59
Lefty or not.. the only way I would carry is cocked and locked.. its still a quick thumb movement

Harvick
07-06-2010, 20:05
wouldnt this be the same way as carrying a loaded glock?


Naw.... at least not with a 3lb trigger. I'd only carry a 1911 like it was designed, cocked and locked.

Hokie1911
07-06-2010, 20:05
Me personally, I wouldn't carry that way. Just my 2.

bac1023
07-06-2010, 20:14
wouldnt this be the same way as carrying a loaded glock?

aside from the exposed hammer, yes it could be similar.

No its not.

Carry a 1911 cocked and unlocked is not real safe, grip safety or not. The trigger is just too light for comfort, in my opinion.

Get a 1911 with an ambi safety or carry something else.






.

Quack
07-06-2010, 20:17
i've carried cocked and unlocked, but that was unknown to me (ambi flipped to the off position)

while it wouldn't be my 1st choice, you could do it, especially if the thumb break covers the rear of the slide blocking the hammer.

would i recommend it? no, but you could wear it in this fashion (w/o a round chambered) around the house doing your normal stuff to see where your comfort level is.

i would recommend training with the single sided safety and carry it C&L'd

Quack
07-06-2010, 20:20
No its not.

Carry a 1911 cocked and unlocked is not real safe, grip safety or not. The trigger is just too light for comfort, in my opinion.

Get a 1911 with an ambi safety or carry something else.

.


it would be close to carrying a XD/XDm

bac1023
07-06-2010, 20:24
it would be close to carrying a XD/XDm

Maybe Quack, but the trigger on those is much longer and a bit heavier on average.

I'd be afraid of an AD just gripping the 1911 to remove it from my holster.

PigButtons
07-06-2010, 21:08
Here I go again, sticking my finger in the puddin'.

Why not try condition 2 and cock on the draw.

(for all of you afraid to lower the hammer on a loaded chamber :crying:)

Hokie1911
07-06-2010, 21:12
Here I go again, sticking my finger in the puddin'.

Why not try condition 2 and cock on the draw.

(for all of you afraid to lower the hammer on a loaded chamber :crying:)

:popcorn: This should be good.

Quack
07-06-2010, 21:16
See L & M

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a317/Quackzilla/194020FM2023-2520TM.gif

ctfireman
07-06-2010, 21:24
I've carried my 1911 cocked & unlocked around the house, unloaded of course just out of curiousity. It didn't fire but i don't see the point in taking the risk of doing it as a method of carry.

Glockdude1
07-06-2010, 21:28
Here I go again, sticking my finger in the puddin'.

Why not try condition 2 and cock on the draw.

(for all of you afraid to lower the hammer on a loaded chamber :crying:)

Why lower the hammer on a live round in a 1911?

Much easier to flip the safety on with your thumb.

It is how I carry my Springfield.

:cool:

rsxr22
07-06-2010, 21:38
you can do it, but i wouldnt recommend it. I agree with BAC. Install an ambi safety. Its not that big of a deal and if you want to change it back you can simply swap your originial back in. If not, carry something else

GunFighter45ACP
07-07-2010, 06:02
OK, thanks. I've been leaning towards hammer down/empty chamber carry & this pretty much confirms it. My other 1911s all have ambis & when carrying them I always go C&L.

98_1LE
07-07-2010, 09:07
It is probably safe to do so, but I wouldn't do it.

Think about how you would explain this to a jury of non gun people.

Trey83
07-07-2010, 10:20
OK, thanks. I've been leaning towards hammer down/empty chamber carry & this pretty much confirms it. My other 1911s all have ambis & when carrying them I always go C&L.

You may want to consider just carrying the other 1911's that have the ambis. You want everything to be as familiar as possible in the event that you need to defend yourself.It will take you longer to chamber a round than flip off a safety and that is assuming you have a free hand to chamber the round.

I started carrying a Glock because I just couldn't get comfortable enoungh with the first DA shot of the Sig I used to carry.

bac1023
07-07-2010, 12:03
It is probably safe to do so, but I wouldn't do it.




I'm not so sure its even that safe.

We all talk about trigger discipline. However in a hurry, it sure wouldn't take much to have an accidental discharge when drawing the pistol.

1911 thumb safeties against the plunger tube are a good deal heavier than their triggers, which are generally light with virtually no travel whatsoever.







.

MD357
07-07-2010, 12:25
Nope. I have no problems using the 1911 as intended.

RonS
07-07-2010, 16:14
No, if I want to shoot myself or someone else it will be on purpose, I hate surprises.

Hokie1911
07-07-2010, 16:20
No, if I want to shoot myself or someone else it will be on purpose, I hate surprises.

http://www3.allaroundphilly.com/blogs/delcotimes/bobg/uploaded_images/plaxico-burress--701377.jpg

Gregg702
07-07-2010, 16:26
If you don't want to modify the safety on your gun for sentimental reasons, maybe just get a new carry gun with an ambi safety. That way you also don't risk hurting your sentimental 1911.

lawdog734
07-07-2010, 21:24
http://www3.allaroundphilly.com/blogs/delcotimes/bobg/uploaded_images/plaxico-burress--701377.jpg
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

bac1023
07-07-2010, 21:32
http://www3.allaroundphilly.com/blogs/delcotimes/bobg/uploaded_images/plaxico-burress--701377.jpg

:animlol:

Hokie1911
07-07-2010, 21:40
Plax would have greatly benefitted from Condition1. :thumbsup:

bac1023
07-07-2010, 21:51
Plax would have greatly benefitted from Condition1. :thumbsup:

:laughabove:

Yeah, that guy is a moron for sure.

Hokie1911
07-07-2010, 21:54
:laughabove:

Yeah, that guy is a moron for sure.

Yeah, I'm not sure what was more ignorant....Mexican carrying a Glock....or saying how it slid down his pants leg, hit the floor, and "just went off". He also said he didn't realize he was shot until he saw the blood. Jackass.

Cobra64
07-07-2010, 21:54
I'd be afraid of an AD just gripping the 1911 to remove it from my holster.

Bac, I mentioned to you that's exactly why I got rid of my 19. Same reactive trigger movement yields a bang.

As you know, my two carry choices are Sig DA/SA (P229 or P239).

HAMMERHEAD
07-08-2010, 00:13
Disregard

Dooley05
07-08-2010, 06:40
A woman noticed the hammer back and the safety off my 1911 and asked isn't that dangerous? I replied I wouldn't carry the sob if it wasn't.

bac1023
07-08-2010, 06:50
A woman noticed the hammer back and the safety off my 1911 and asked isn't that dangerous? I replied I wouldn't carry the sob if it wasn't.

:upeyes:

Dooley05
07-08-2010, 07:12
Don't get ur panties in a wad it was a quote from a texas ranger lol

bac1023
07-08-2010, 07:46
Don't get ur panties in a wad it was a quote from a texas ranger lol

:cool:

brzusa.1911
07-08-2010, 07:56
I wouldn't carry cocked and unlocked, BUT I also don't worry too much because I carry with the thumblock between the hammer and the firing pin.

lawdog734
07-08-2010, 10:05
I carry mine unloaded. I just keep the bullets in my pocket. It is the safest.:laughing:

Hokie1911
07-08-2010, 10:19
I carry mine unloaded. I just keep the bullets in my pocket. It is the safest.:laughing:

:rofl:

bac1023
07-08-2010, 10:28
I carry mine unloaded. I just keep the bullets in my pocket. It is the safest.:laughing:

:rofl::rofl:

jrs93accord
07-08-2010, 11:05
Personally, I would never carry my 1911 in a cocked and unlocked position. Mine is carried in a cocked and locked position in a holster with a top strap over the slide. It only takes a fraction of a second to flip off the safety. For me, it is all about safe carry of a firearm, not comfort.

Reswob
07-08-2010, 11:14
It would be EXACTLY like carrying a Glock, albeit one with a lighter trigger installed. Y'know, I heard once that if you don't pull the trigger, a gun won't go off? I heard this method works for any firearm.:dunno:

bac1023
07-08-2010, 11:35
It would be EXACTLY like carrying a Glock, albeit one with a lighter trigger installed. Y'know, I heard once that if you don't pull the trigger, a gun won't go off? I heard this method works for any firearm.:dunno:

:upeyes: :faint:

I suggest you go back to Glocks. :whistling:



For your info, a Glock's trigger has a great deal of travel compared to the 1911 regardless of the weight. Carrying a 1911 unlocked is a bad idea. Its not like carrying a Glock. A 1911 can go off very easily when drawing it with an accidentital brush against the trigger once you grip the gun. A Glock takes much more effort.

Carrying a 1911 unlocked is more similar to carrying a cocked revolver than it is carrying a Glock.

AA#5
07-08-2010, 11:39
wouldnt this be the same way as carrying a loaded glock?

No it wouldn't. Glock has a trigger safety. There is also a difference in the length of trigger travel.

Reswob
07-08-2010, 14:27
Carrying a 1911 unlocked is more similar to carrying a cocked revolver than it is carrying a Glock.

...which are all similar in that if you don't put your finger on the freaking trigger the gun won't fire.

Hokie1911
07-08-2010, 14:51
...which are all similar in that if you don't put your finger on the freaking trigger the gun won't fire.

:brickwall:

bac1023
07-08-2010, 14:53
...which are all similar in that if you don't put your finger on the freaking trigger the gun won't fire.

Give me break, would you? Are you friggen serious?

A Glock has a MUCH longer travel. A 1911 can go off by basically just brushing trigger unintentionally from the side, as its lighter with no travel. Obviously, Glock understands that because they also have a trigger safety to prevent the exact kind of accidental discharge I'm referring to.

Is that hard to understand? :dunno:

Like I said, go back to Glocks. They're much better for beginners. :whistling:

CAcop
07-08-2010, 14:58
Okay as a Glock and 1911 armorer I will have to say this:

Do not carry your 1911 cocked and unlocked.

Do not carry your 1911 with the hammer down on a line round.

Either carry you 1911 with loaded mag, chamber empty or cocked and locked. It is your choice but there are only two choices I would stand up in court and defend.

The reason why cocked and unlocked is a bad idea is because the notches on the hammer are very small. We are talking around an 1/8 of an inch or so. A Glock has more movement and the striker is not at full full cock with the trigger at rest.

Hammer down is dangerous because lowering the hammer in itself is not safe. You are betting that your thumb will keep it from going bang when you do not want it to. Plus if you are dealing with a Series 80 or Schwartz pistol you just deactivated a safety by doing so. Also during the draw you may fumble the hammer and let the hammer drop onto the firing pin. Again you are running the risk of the hammer having enough energy to pop the primer if you let it go before the half cock notch. Then of course can you be sure the hammer will not snagg and then release before the half cock as you carry it? Chamber empty is better because if you have a GI recoil spring plug of a square front endge to the rear sight you can use that to rack a round in one handed. If you have both hands which is easier to do under stress? Reach for a small hammer and thumb back or grab the slide and yank?

As for the OP's issue if I was really worried about keeping the gun in good shape I wouldn't carry it. It will get worn in the holster. The three guns I own and carry the most or longest are beat to crap in terms of finish. The other carried not as long or as often look used but the finish is not missing in areas.

If you aren't worried about minor finish wear I suppose you could carry it. I would recommend chamber empty. You could also fit an ambi safety. You might get some finish wear on the right side but not much.

My advice is to buy a Springer Milspec or similar and carry that with an ambi safety. Depending on the model they are what 5-600 OTD in most areas? Throw on an ambi safety for 50 or less. Or just go ahead and buy a Springer loaded or similar and it comes with ambi from the factory.

bac1023
07-08-2010, 15:04
Okay as a Glock and 1911 armorer I will have to say this:

Do not carry your 1911 cocked and unlocked.

Do not carry your 1911 with the hammer down on a line round.

Either carry you 1911 with loaded mag, chamber empty or cocked and locked. It is your choice but there are only two choices I would stand up in court and defend.

The reason why cocked and unlocked is a bad idea is because the notches on the hammer are very small. We are talking around an 1/8 of an inch or so. A Glock has more movement and the striker is not at full full cock with the trigger at rest.

Hammer down is dangerous because lowering the hammer in itself is not safe. You are betting that your thumb will keep it from going bang when you do not want it to. Plus if you are dealing with a Series 80 or Schwartz pistol you just deactivated a safety by doing so. Also during the draw you may fumble the hammer and let the hammer drop onto the firing pin. Again you are running the risk of the hammer having enough energy to pop the primer if you let it go before the half cock notch. Then of course can you be sure the hammer will not snagg and then release before the half cock as you carry it? Chamber empty is better because if you have a GI recoil spring plug of a square front endge to the rear sight you can use that to rack a round in one handed. If you have both hands which is easier to do under stress? Reach for a small hammer and thumb back or grab the slide and yank?

As for the OP's issue if I was really worried about keeping the gun in good shape I wouldn't carry it. It will get worn in the holster. The three guns I own and carry the most or longest are beat to crap in terms of finish. The other carried not as long or as often look used but the finish is not missing in areas.

If you aren't worried about minor finish wear I suppose you could carry it. I would recommend chamber empty. You could also fit an ambi safety. You might get some finish wear on the right side but not much.

My advice is to buy a Springer Milspec or similar and carry that with an ambi safety. Depending on the model they are what 5-600 OTD in most areas? Throw on an ambi safety for 50 or less. Or just go ahead and buy a Springer loaded or similar and it comes with ambi from the factory.



:goodpost:

Well said, CA. :)

I didn't think it was too hard to comprehend, but I was obviously wrong. :whistling:

Reswob
07-08-2010, 16:03
Give me break, would you? Are you friggen serious?

A Glock has a MUCH longer travel. A 1911 can go off by basically just brushing trigger unintentionally from the side, as its lighter with no travel. Obviously, Glock understands that because they also have a trigger safety to prevent the exact kind of accidental discharge I'm referring to.

Is that hard to understand? :dunno:

Like I said, go back to Glocks. They're much better for beginners. :whistling:

I am serious, and it's extremely difficult to understand, since I've never had a 1911 fire without me deliberately pulling the trigger, much less from just holding onto it. Maybe a custom job with a competition trigger will fire just from thinking about it, but your basic out-of-the-box ones I have experience with don't.

bac1023
07-08-2010, 16:17
I am serious, and it's extremely difficult to understand, since I've never had a 1911 fire without me deliberately pulling the trigger, much less from just holding onto it. Maybe a custom job with a competition trigger will fire just from thinking about it, but your basic out-of-the-box ones I have experience with don't.

So you carry a 1911 cocked and unlocked? :dunno:

Cerebrus
07-08-2010, 16:32
:popcorn:

RonS
07-08-2010, 17:39
Darwin award candidate.

You carry anyway you want, your right, your responsibility. but if I were sitting on the jury I would view carrying a single action pistol cocked and unlocked as reckless and irresponsible and vote for a judgment with no hesitation at all in the event of a negligent discharge.

bac1023
07-08-2010, 18:31
I honestly can't believe we're getting any arguments here at all.

Seems like a no brainer to me. :dunno:

Cobra64
07-08-2010, 20:40
I carry mine unloaded. I just keep the bullets in my pocket. It is the safest.:laughing:

Me too. Without powder, primer, and shell case, bullets are very safe.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/Ammo/speer_gold_dot_hp_auto.jpg



.

bac1023
07-08-2010, 20:42
:rofl::rofl:

Cobra64
07-08-2010, 20:44
Carrying a 1911 unlocked is more similar to carrying a cocked revolver than it is carrying a Glock.

Exactly, My cocked Ruger Bisley Vaquero trigger "touch" is very similar to a 1911.

Cobra64
07-08-2010, 20:48
No it wouldn't. Glock has a trigger safety. There is also a difference in the length of trigger travel.

The "Glock trigger safety" is a gimmick.

Besides, Glockers are always stating "the safety is between your ears." I agree. Despite that, why did Gaston include the Glock "safety trigger?" :tongueout:

Cobra64
07-08-2010, 20:50
...which are all similar in that if you don't put your finger on the freaking trigger the gun won't fire.

Then what's that funky lever doing embedded in the trigger? :dunno:

Hokie1911
07-08-2010, 20:51
Then what's that funky lever doing embedded in the trigger? :dunno:

:rofl:

Cobra64
07-08-2010, 21:08
:rofl:

Hokie, in case you haven't noticed, I love to rumble with Glocksters. None of their arguments are consistent.

There are three Glock safety schools of thought:


1 - "Keep your booger hook off the bang switch."
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/Glock/Glocksafety.gif





2 - "The safety is between your ears."
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Cartoons/ITSLOADED.jpg





3 - "Safe action trigger"
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/Glock/gs2.jpg



.

Hokie1911
07-08-2010, 21:18
Hokie, in case you haven't noticed, I love to rumble with Glocksters. None of their arguments are consistent.


HA! I've known you long enough to know better, but I always appreciate extra peripherals. :thumbsup:

Glockdude1
07-08-2010, 21:56
Hokie, in case you haven't noticed, I love to rumble with Glocksters. None of their arguments are consistent.

There are three Glock safety schools of thought:


1 - "Keep your booger hook off the bang switch."
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/Glock/Glocksafety.gif


:rofl::rofl:

Cobra64
07-08-2010, 22:04
:rofl::rofl:

Actually a Glocker, former Marine, and good friend of mine sent me that GIF. :)

He can't stand that expression. :supergrin:

HAIL CAESAR
07-08-2010, 22:12
Cobra, that was classic!

Cobra64
07-08-2010, 23:12
Cobra, that was classic!

Thanks Caesar. :wavey:

bac1023
07-09-2010, 01:39
1 - "Keep your booger hook off the bang switch."
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/Glock/Glocksafety.gif





:rofl::rofl:

CAcop
07-09-2010, 10:24
I am serious, and it's extremely difficult to understand, since I've never had a 1911 fire without me deliberately pulling the trigger, much less from just holding onto it. Maybe a custom job with a competition trigger will fire just from thinking about it, but your basic out-of-the-box ones I have experience with don't.

You need to take a look at your 1911 hammer and explain to me why 1/8 of an inch is sufficient to prevent it from going bang at an inappropriate time.

I remember what I said about me going into court to defend the carry condition of a 1911. If one of my students were to carry cocked and unlocked I would have to tell the court in my expert opinion that they were wrong.

They are free to find an expert willing to testify under oath that it is safe. I suggest you find one that will withstand cross before you do.

In fact we do have a court certified expert here on GT. Mas Ayoob up in the GATE Self-Defence section. Why don't you ask him what is opinion is on cocked and unlocked and bring the link on down here for us to see?

Kinny
07-09-2010, 11:31
Here I go again, sticking my finger in the puddin'.

Why not try condition 2 and cock on the draw.

(for all of you afraid to lower the hammer on a loaded chamber :crying:)

Because doing so will:
1) promote a negligent discharge.
2) eventually damage your sear.

Sorta like a "no no" on releasing the slide on an empty chamber.

bac1023
07-09-2010, 11:51
Really the only way to carry a 1911 with a round chambered is cocked and locked.

Hokie1911
07-09-2010, 12:04
Really the only way to carry a 1911 with a round chambered is cocked and locked.

Sorry man, those guys sold me. My mind has been changed.

http://i880.photobucket.com/albums/ac6/HokiePS7/5eb18d6f.jpg

















Not. :tongueout:

Cerebrus
07-09-2010, 12:14
[QUOTE=hokieshooterG23;15609845]Sorry man, those guys sold me. My mind has been changed.

Well if yer gonna carry like that.. at least carry appendix style.. so in case of ND it removes testicles..:tongueout:
just a thought.... :wavey:

Hokie1911
07-09-2010, 12:17
[QUOTE=hokieshooterG23;15609845]Sorry man, those guys sold me. My mind has been changed.

Well if yer gonna carry like that.. at least carry appendix style.. so in case of ND it removes testicles..:tongueout:
just a thought.... :wavey:

Well then I guess my wife wouldn't have them anymore. :rofl:

bac1023
07-09-2010, 13:02
Sorry man, those guys sold me. My mind has been changed.

http://i880.photobucket.com/albums/ac6/HokiePS7/5eb18d6f.jpg






Not. :tongueout:





:rofl:

Hokie1911
07-09-2010, 13:42
...and yes, that was an empty magazine. :thumbsup:

samuse
07-09-2010, 17:15
Didn't this happen when the guy was changing out his mainspring housing?

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/Glock/gs2.jpg

1911Tuner
07-09-2010, 19:44
You need to take a look at your 1911 hammer and explain to me why 1/8 of an inch is sufficient to prevent it from going bang at an inappropriate time.


Without pulling the trigger? The half-cock notch. And the hammer hooks aren't anywhere close to 1/8th inch long. By original design specs, they're .027 +/-.003 inch, and they're undersquare so they tend to pull the sear back into the hammer when the group is under tension.


These discussions are kinda funny. So much misconception, I don't know where to start.

So, I'll start with JMB's alleged intent.

It was never his intent for the gun to be carried cocked and locked. His first submission to the US Army didn't even have a thumb safety...so how could he have intended for it to be carried in Condition 1? If the truth was known, he probably didn't give a rotund rodent's rump what they did with it after he was finished.

The US Cavalry requested the manual safety so that the gun could be placed on safe and reholstered while the mounted trooper regained control of an unruly horse...or to ready the gun for iminent action. For normal carry, the directive was to place the gun in Condition 3. It was not...as so many have come to believe...so that the gun could be carried cocked and locked. It was designed so that it could be placed in that condition...temporarily...but not specifically to be carried that way.

If Browning had any intent for how to carry the gun, it was to carry it on half-cock...since that's how he designed all his other exposed hammer guns. He was asked for a "manual, slide-locking safety" and he gave'em one.

On to the half-cock.

It's been screamed to the rafters that the half-cock was never meant to be a safe carry position, and should never be used as a carry option...but it was, and it is...a de facto safety. It was referenced as a safety in the original patents in March of 1910 by Browning himself.
Look it up.

Lowering the hammer with the chamber hot.

Another one that brings howls of warning. It was also addressed by Browning in the same paragraph as the half-cock. He instructs on the proper way to lower the hammer from the firing position...with one hand...to the "safety position"...that doesn't allow the hammer to touch the firing pin. That would be the half-cock notch.

Let's take another look at the half-cock in case it's still misunderstood. Most believe that it's no more than a backup safety that arrests the hammer in the event of a failed sear or hammer hooks...and it is. It's also a safety. We're talking about a true half-cock notch, and not the square quarter cock shelf first seen on the Series 80 Colts.

When the hammer is in the half-cocked position, the sear and hammer are interlocked. Pull the trigger all you wish. The sear can't move, and the hammer can't fall. Even the trigger is immobilized, and the whole fire control group is effectively disabled...locked.
If that doesn't meet the requirement for a safety, I'd like to know what does.

faawrenchbndr
07-09-2010, 19:47
Without pulling the trigger? The half-cock notch. And the hammer hooks aren't anywhere close to 1/8th inch long. By original design specs, they're .027 +/-.003 inch, and they're undersquare so they tend to pull the sear back into the hammer when the group is under tension.


These discussions are kinda funny. So much misconception, I don't know where to start.

So, I'll start with JMB's alleged intent.

It was never his intent for the gun to be carried cocked and locked. His first submission to the US Army didn't even have a thumb safety...so how could he have intended for it to be carried in Condition 1? If the truth was known, he probably didn't give a rotund rodent's rump what they did with it after he was finished.

The US Cavalry requested the manual safety so that the gun could be placed on safe and reholstered while the mounted trooper regained control of an unruly horse...or to ready the gun for iminent action. For normal carry, the directive was to place the gun in Condition 3. It was not...as so many have come to believe...so that the gun could be carried cocked and locked. It was designed so that it could be placed in that condition...temporarily...but not specifically to be carried that way.

If Browning had any intent for how to carry the gun, it was to carry it on half-cock...since that's how he designed all his other exposed hammer guns. He was asked for a "manual, slide-locking safety" and he gave'em one.

On to the half-cock.

It's been screamed to the rafters that the half-cock was never meant to be a safe carry position, and should never be used as a carry option...but it was, and it is a safety. It was referenced as a safety in the original patents in March of 1910 by Browning himself.
Look it up.

Lowering the hammer with the chamber hot.

Another one that brings howls of warning. It was also addressed by Browning in the same paragraph as the half-cock. He instructs on the proper way to lower the hammerfrom the firing position...with one hand...to the "safety position"...that doesn't allow the hammer to touch the firing pin. That would be the half-cock notch.

Let's take another look at the half-cock in case it's still misunderstood. Most believe that it's no more than a backup safety that arrests the hammer in the event of a failed sear or hammer hooks...and it is. It's also a safety. We're talking about a true half-cock notch, and not the square quarter cock shelf first seen on the Series 80 Colts.

When the hammer is in the half-cocked position, the sear and hammer are interlocked. Pull the trigger all you wish. The sear can't move, and the hammer can't fall. Even the trigger is immobilized, and the whole fire control group is effectively disabled...locked.
If that doesn't meet the requirement for a safety, I'd like to know what does.

Outstanding post,......I thank you Sir!

Cobra64
07-09-2010, 19:55
Without pulling the trigger? The half-cock notch. And the hammer hooks aren't anywhere close to 1/8th inch long. By original design specs, they're .027 +/-.003 inch, and they're undersquare so they tend to pull the sear back into the hammer when the group is under tension.


These discussions are kinda funny. So much misconception, I don't know where to start.

So, I'll start with JMB's alleged intent.

It was never his intent for the gun to be carried cocked and locked. His first submission to the US Army didn't even have a thumb safety...so how could he have intended for it to be carried in Condition 1? If the truth was known, he probably didn't give a rotund rodent's rump what they did with it after he was finished.

The US Cavalry requested the manual safety so that the gun could be placed on safe and reholstered while the mounted trooper regained control of an unruly horse...or to ready the gun for iminent action. For normal carry, the directive was to place the gun in Condition 3. It was not...as so many have come to believe...so that the gun could be carried cocked and locked. It was designed so that it could be placed in that condition...temporarily...but not specifically to be carried that way.

If Browning had any intent for how to carry the gun, it was to carry it on half-cock...since that's how he designed all his other exposed hammer guns. He was asked for a "manual, slide-locking safety" and he gave'em one.

On to the half-cock.

It's been screamed to the rafters that the half-cock was never meant to be a safe carry position, and should never be used as a carry option...but it was, and it is a safety. It was referenced as a safety in the original patents in March of 1910 by Browning himself.
Look it up.

Lowering the hammer with the chamber hot.

Another one that brings howls of warning. It was also addressed by Browning in the same paragraph as the half-cock. He instructs on the proper way to lower the hammerfrom the firing position...with one hand...to the "safety position"...that doesn't allow the hammer to touch the firing pin. That would be the half-cock notch.

Let's take another look at the half-cock in case it's still misunderstood. Most believe that it's no more than a backup safety that arrests the hammer in the event of a failed sear or hammer hooks...and it is. It's also a safety. We're talking about a true half-cock notch, and not the square quarter cock shelf first seen on the Series 80 Colts.

When the hammer is in the half-cocked position, the sear and hammer are interlocked. Pull the trigger all you wish. The sear can't move, and the hammer can't fall. Even the trigger is immobilized, and the whole fire control group is effectively disabled...locked.

If that doesn't meet the requirement for a safety, I'd like to know what does.


Well, you forgot the booger hook and ear safeties. :rofl:


Seriously, thanks for the history lesson.

Personally, I don't understand why this topic is about as controversial and heated as caliber wars.

If somone wants to carry "Condition Barney," I could care less.

Quack
07-09-2010, 19:59
Hi 1911Tuner!!!



The US Cavalry requested the manual safety so that the gun could be placed on safe and reholstered while the mounted trooper regained control of an unruly horse...or to ready the gun for iminent action. For normal carry, the directive was to place the gun in Condition 3. It was not...as so many have come to believe...so that the gun could be carried cocked and locked. It was designed so that it could be placed in that condition...temporarily...but not specifically to be carried that way.


which reinforces this:

L & M
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a317/Quackzilla/194020FM2023-2520TM.gif

bac1023
07-09-2010, 21:59
If somone wants to carry "Condition Barney," I could care less.


:rofl::rofl:

HAIL CAESAR
07-09-2010, 22:09
:rofl::rofl:

Yeah, that made me laugh too!

And as always, thanks Tuner for EXCELLENT postings.

deadday
07-09-2010, 22:17
Any thoughts on carrying this way? This would be:

1. With an appropriate 1911 thumb break holster.

2. I'm a Southpaw & the pistol in question is one of both sentimental & monetary value that I would not want to modify w/an ambi safety.

Also a southpaw with no desire to add an ambi-safety to my pistol....I've taught myself to disengage the safety with my trigger finger as I draw my 1911...

Cobra64
07-09-2010, 22:17
:rofl::rofl:

Bac, I'm surprised you know what "Condition Barney" is (considering I coined the expression). :supergrin:

ronin.45
07-10-2010, 00:17
Referred to as condition zero. Bad idea.

1911Tuner
07-10-2010, 01:13
Also a southpaw with no desire to add an ambi-safety to my pistol....I've taught myself to disengage the safety with my trigger finger as I draw my 1911...

I've seen a guy make that work very well. With practice...cocking on the draw from Condition 2 or half-cock can also be done much smoother and faster than one might suppose. The trick is to cock the hammer while it's still in the holster rather than fumbling with it after the draw. Before Jeff Cooper instructed us to carry cocked and locked, that's the way most people who carried the big Colt did it.

As far as carrying in Condition Zero goes...and understand that I'm not advocating it...run a test.

Carry an empty, cocked/unlocked pistol around in a holster for a month. Unless you take the gun out of the holster, hold it so that the grip safety is depressed, and pull the trigger...it'll still be cocked when the test is over. We're assuming a good holster that covers the trigger guard.

And...assuming a functional grip safety, the gun has to be held in a firing grip in order for the trigger to move...and the trigger still requires pulling in order to make the gun fire...thumb safety or no thumb safety.

GunFighter45ACP
07-12-2010, 07:59
Hmmm. So half-cocked/round in chamber, or hammer down/round in chamber was the prevalent way to carry, prior to Cooper? I'm asking from an academic/historical perspective at this point, since I've already addressed that my EDC 1911s are carried C&L, & my OP was w/regards to what would be a 'BBQ rig carry' for special occasions/events.

1911Tuner
07-12-2010, 12:51
Hmmm. So half-cocked/round in chamber, or hammer down/round in chamber was the prevalent way to carry, prior to Cooper?

Pretty much. There were a few enlightened, serious types who carried cocked and locked full time...but they were the exceptions rather than the rule.

1911Tuner
07-12-2010, 19:42
Got caught up and had a little time to spare this PM...so I thought I'd go into a little more depth on Gunfighter's questions.

Until the 1911 Renaisance brought about by Cooper and Company, the 1911 wasn't a very popular carry gun. Most of the old-timers went with revolvers or Colt .32 autos. It's been reported that John Browning himself preferred the .32 for carry. The 1911 was big and heavy, and there just wasn't a lot of good, affordable leather available for packin' the gun in any sort of comfort, let alone concealed. There were a good many 1911s and 1911A1s in private hands, but for the most part, they were stashed away in drawers or closets.

The people who did carry the "Yankee Fist" usually carried it stuck down into waistbands...side or front...and as such, they weren't really comfortable with a cocked hammer...safety or no safety. Most carried hammer down on an empty chamber. The few hard cases who did carry with a chambered round mostly carried hammer down or on half-cock...which, along with the grip safety...Browning considered to be sufficient as evidenced by the lack of a manual safety on the 1910 prototypes that he submitted to the US Army for testing.

Enter the "New Age" of the 1911 as a daily carry or duty piece...along with good leather...and "Cocked and Locked and Ready to Rock" became the rage. Suddenly, everybody was packin' Browning's heat, and because the good Colonel gave Condition One his blessing...they jumped on it like rabid wolves. But, even in that period of enlightenment, the leather included a safety strap that was imposed between the hammer and slide...just because it provided a little added security...even if it was
essentially unnecessary other than to make the gun more snatch resistant and/or secure in the event of running and jumping with the gun on our belts.

Today, most of understand the gun a little better, and because we know that the hammer can't make it past the half-cock unless the trigger is pulled or something is seriously wrong in the lockwork...we feel good about doing away with the safety strap.

Some of us still occasionally carry in Condition 2 or 3 in certain circumstances. Out in the boondocks, where mud and grit are a concern, hammer down in a flap holster affords the internals the maximum protection against debris, and Condition 2 still allows readying the gun with one hand...albeit a bit slower. With practice and the proper technique, it's really not all that slow, though it does tend to make some people nervous over cocking a gun with the safety off while it's still in the holster. The fear is largely unfounded, because we still have a need to keep our fingers off the trigger until the gun is at low-ready.