My Latest 10mm Conversion -- a true pocket pistol!!! [Archive] - Glock Talk

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flyandscuba
07-07-2010, 16:44
Here are some pics of my newly converted new-production (High Standard) AMT Backup from .40 S&W to 10mm. I still have to engrave the barrel with the new caliber, but you can see how the Double Tap 135 gr. Nosler JHP fits nicely into the magazine once the spacer has been removed. The fit & finish of these new High Standard-produced Backups are MUCH nicer than the old AMT stuff out of California. They have even added a thin stainless steel plate to the right side under the grip panel that covers the tigger bar linkage that was left exposed when AMT was making these.

It is a hand cannon and not for the recoil sensitive shooter!! The heavy trigger spring helps to retard the slide along with the recoil spring and dampens the recoil effectively. For an "up close and personal" deep concealment pistol, I believe this is the first TRUE pocket pistol in 10mm.

:wow:

Range reports to follow...

Regards,
flyandscuba


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/flyandscuba/100_0105.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/flyandscuba/100_0103.jpg

_The_Shadow
07-07-2010, 18:02
Hey you need to chrono some of those from that < 3" barrel.

BTW who did the barrel for you? Was the chamber just cut deeper on 40S&W barrel?

Did you change recoil springs out? Give us the dirt here!

flyandscuba
07-07-2010, 19:44
I don't have a chrono -- but I might need to invest in one...

A local gunsmith did the barrel work -- it was a simple reaming of the chamber to the 10mm cartidge dimension. I removed the mag spacer myself in about 30 seconds with a screwdriver. Minimal filing of the dimples that held the spacer in the mag was performed as well.

No change to the recoil spring. The heavy but smooth DAO hammer and spring actually assist the recoil spring to retard the slide and absorb the recoil.

As conversion projects go, this was a very simple one. If you had the patience, you could even do the reaming of the stainless steel chamber by hand if you have the proper reamer and "go" gauge.

Since this particular pistol is the same dimension for all of their caliber offerings (9mm, .38 Super, .357 Sig, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, and .400 Corbon) -- the hole in the barrel is larger or smaller depending upon the caliber, but the exterior dimensions of the barrel remain the same -- I have no doubt that the pistol can handle any commercially produced full-power 10mm loads.

However, I doubt that I will use anything greater than a 165 gr. bullets for carry loads to lessen the recoil.

_The_Shadow
07-07-2010, 19:58
Very cool! Thanks for sharing!

69stingray
07-07-2010, 20:44
I like that! :cool:

not for the recoil sensitive shooter!!

I bet it does get your attention when you light one off. A recoil junkie could appreciate that. :supergrin:

Ray

cowboywannabe
07-07-2010, 20:45
i had one of those in .45acp in the 90's, it was a jamomatic to say the least. i bought it because the .380 version i have was pretty good though a pita to field strip.

i would like to see a range report of sorts.

nice job on the conversion just the same.

ChuteTheMall
07-07-2010, 20:49
A friend had the old .45acp model back in the '90's.
Worst trigger I ever pulled.
And the recoil was no fun.
Except when it jammed.

I hope your 10mm is better!:cool:

Berto
07-07-2010, 21:03
Looks fearsome, should make for an interesting conversation piece.

Bullman
07-07-2010, 22:21
Very interesting indeed. I would like to hear more, like a range report when you have put some more rounds through it, how reliable it is and that sort of thing.

CitizenOfDreams
07-07-2010, 23:33
Wow. Pocket 10mm pistol is as cool as a nuclear hand grenade. :shocked:

Aloxite
07-09-2010, 09:19
The sound of those 135 grain Nosler Doubletaps cooking off in an indoor range would sure turn some heads. Of course most people would probably have hit the deck after the first one thinking the building just exploded.

Bullman
07-09-2010, 13:27
I would question the durability a little except that High Standard chambers it in .400 CorBon themselves, that puts up some impressive numbers close to 10mm, but I don't think it is quite as much pressure. That is quite a rocket you have, it is really making me think because that is definetly the way I am going in carry guns right now.

Angry Fist
07-09-2010, 13:33
I hope the gun can handle it! Awesome project... the perfect BUG. :thumbsup:

flyandscuba
07-10-2010, 19:42
Here's a size comparison with my current EDC CCW -- a 9mm Rohrbaugh R9S. When pocket size allows, and the need for maximum power exists -- this hand cannon is certainly capable of pocket carry. If the 135 gr. DT's can get 1450 fps or so out of the 3 1/8" barrel -- they'll still be very respectable for SD use.

The pressure is much less in the .400 Corbon. That may be why the High Standard engineers went that route rather than 10mm. If this project will hold up long enough to assure reliable function with the full power loads, it will be a success in my book. At that point, it will be loaded up with whatever loading works best during the testing and then carried much and shot very little. It will not be a frequent shooter for the range. All I'll really need it to do is survive for 6 to 11 more rounds should a self defense situation arise.

If it is called upon for that -- and it works, it will have been worth the investment and then can be retired to 10mm "Lite" duty and another one converted for carry.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/flyandscuba/10mmBUv9mmR9.jpg

Aloxite
07-11-2010, 11:05
Wow, that's small. Ya know, there is one way to look at this conversion that really makes me feel very good about how it can handle the round.

The 10mm case has more volume than the 40 cal case. For any given power level that will mean a lower pressure. Assuming that you are handloading appropriate ammo for this pistol it would seem like the 10mm is the better chambering. Since the conversion doesn't increase the size of the pistol then I really can't see a downside.

flyandscuba
07-11-2010, 12:23
Here's a sampling of pressures from Wiki for the various factory offerings in the BackUp:

9mm = 34,084 max psi
38 Super = 36,500 max psi
.357 Sig = 40,000 max psi
.40 S&W = 32,633 max psi
400 Corbon = 29,000 max psi
45 ACP = 21,000 max psi

So, the 37,500 max psi of the 10mm conversion falls between the factory offering of the .40 S&W and the .357 Sig, giving me more confidence that the conversion should hold up for the intended purpose.

nickE10mm
07-11-2010, 13:04
Wow! Really neat little project there... Looking forward to the range report.

Please be safe, though, buddy. I sure hope that little guy doesn't blow up on ya. WEAR YOUR SAFETY GLASSES AND GLOVES, would be my suggestion.

Bullman
07-11-2010, 17:16
Another good round to shoot out of this conversion might be the 230 grain Equalizer from Doubletap. I don't think it is quite as hot as some of their stuff so as to keep the leading down from the 95 grain led ball behind that 135 grain Nosler.

flyandscuba
07-11-2010, 20:48
Great idea Bullman! Plus, up close & personal -- you'll get two holes with each shot...totaling 12 out of one mag. Who could ask for more in a near contact self defense gun! I'm going to order some right now!

cheez
07-13-2010, 16:56
Wicked little piece of machinery right there.

MSgt Dotson
07-17-2010, 19:23
The 10mm case has more volume than the 40 cal case. For any given power level that will mean a lower pressure. Assuming that you are handloading appropriate ammo for this pistol it would seem like the 10mm is the better chambering. Since the conversion doesn't increase the size of the pistol then I really can't see a downside.

When a given set of nearly identical pistols in either .40 or 10mm is launching a 180 gr bullet at 1000 fps, the .40 will probably be at higher pressure, but, given identical bullet velocities, slide velocites will still be very similar, with hypothetically similar pistol life-times.....; the 10 when loaded to the same pressure will have higher velocities, but, even though pressures are the same, the recoil impulse will be resulting in yet even higher slide velocities.

I hope the pistol in question lasts a lifetime, but, I would suspect the 'full power' 10mm loadings will batter/peen it fairly quickly....

flyandscuba
07-23-2010, 16:30
The conversion is doing fine! The gunsmith who performed the chamber reaming and barrel engraving simply noted on the completed work order....ouch! :D

I'm currently carrying Double Tap's new 125 gr. solid copper hollow point as a carry load. Like DT's 135 gr. JHP -- these things are nuclear, but the BackUp handles them just fine!

Here is a pic with the recently re-marked barrel:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/flyandscuba/100_0112.jpg

Bullman
07-24-2010, 04:03
Man, the more I look, the more I want.

flyandscuba
07-24-2010, 04:59
Bullman,

How close are you to Chesapeake/Norfolk? I'm headed that way this morning and will be there through the weekend if you want to check it out in person.

It really is a simple conversion. A Handall Jr. slipped over the grip may make things more comfortable for range work, but I didn't want anything to bind on the draw from the pocket for carry. I found a nice little leather pocket holster yesterday that fits the pistol quite well, even though it wasn't officially made for it. The set up rides quite nicely and comfortably in 5-11 pants, but in the khakis I wore for work yesterday it was a little noticeable. I haven't tried it in jeans yet, but I think relaxed fit jeans will be required.

6 rounds of full-power 10mm riding in your pocket is a comfortable feeling when out and about! :cool:

flyandscuba
07-27-2010, 20:48
As I promised, here is a range report from a little shooting today. While traveling on business, I stopped in to a range near Charlotte for a little afternoon session with the BackUp and my Pointman.

Blazer ammo ran fine through the BackUp. The only issue I had at all was two grip screws -- one on each side -- departed the frame during the shooting. Upon examining the screws, the first few threads appear stripped. I believe the screws are a little shorter than they should be and aren't getting a proper purchase into the threaded holes in the frame -- especially the screw that has to pass through the grip panel as well as the metal plate covering the trigger bar linkage that was left open in the older AMT BU's.

I'll order some new screws and possibly use a little Locktite to secure them.

Anyway, here is a picture of a target that received two magazines (10 rounds) at 3 yards. Standing slow fire, all 10 rounds made it center mass within a 4 inch spread. Eliminate the one "flyer" at the top, and the remaining group measures about 3.5 inches. Given that the pistol only has a channel on the top of the slide for a sight, I am well pleased with the accuracy considering the long and heavy DAO trigger pull.

My next step will be to assure reliable function with 50 rounds of chosen self-defense ammo. I'm going to try the new Double Tap 125 gr. solid copper HP as well as the 230 gr. Equalizer load to start.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/flyandscuba/100_0143.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/flyandscuba/100_0143-1.jpg

Bullman
07-28-2010, 06:16
not bad, so no stoppages? just the grip screws coming out. Man I want one.

flyandscuba
07-28-2010, 21:13
I finally had time in my latest hotel room tonight to field strip the 10mm BackUp. I was pleased to see that there is absolutely no abnormal wear, peening, etc. to the internals. The only evidence of firing was the typical "shining" to the frame rails, slide grooves, and barrel from stainless rubbing on stainless during firing.

It appears that the plastic grips might be a little thicker than needed, thus why the grip screws aren't getting a full purchase in the threaded holes in the frame to adequately secure the grips to the frame. Therefore, I plan to reduce the thickness of the grip panels ever so slightly (basically, removing some of the injection molding points and flashing) in order to give the screws a better change of engaging the threads needed to provide a snug and secure fit. I will also add a drop of loctite to each and then see what happens during the next range session.

I am really pleased that the 10mm ammo is causing no damage to the pistol at this point. Another area that I think I'll make a change in is the magazine follower. In order for the follower to function in the .40 S&W magazine with the spacer in place, it is shorter than a normal 1911 style follower. Now that the spacer has been removed from the magazine -- a void exists between the back of the follower and the rear of the magazine. Although this has caused no malfunctions at this point, I plan to replace the follower with a regular full-length follower just to be sure it will not cause a feed malfunction in the future.

flyandscuba
09-27-2010, 12:58
As mentioned in my earlier range report, I experienced a failure of the grip screws -- allowing the grip screws to loosen and depart from the frame while firing with the stock AMT grip screws. Upon examination, it appeared that the threaded portion of the grip screws was not long enough to get a good purchase in the threads of the frame in order to hold effectively -- especially on the right side of the pistol where High Standard has added a thin stainless steel plate under the grip to cover the trigger linkage that was left open and exposed on the earlier AMT production models. I do like this addition because it keeps lint, dirt and debris out of the mechanism when used for pocket carry.

After getting no support from High Standard for warranty replacement of the grip screws, I began to look for other alternatives. If I was going to pay for replacement screws, I wanted to find some that would offer a solution to the srew length issue, rather than sanding down the grip panels to lessen their thickness.

While cleaning my Rohrbaugh R9S one day, I noticed that the grip screws on it appeared to be the same thread pattern as the AMT, but longer. On a whim, I decided to try one in the BackUp and it fit perfectly. I ordered a few sets of them from Rohrbaugh in stainless (available in black also) for a fraction of what AMT/High Standard wanted for their defective stock screws. Rather than slotted, the Rohrbaugh srews are allen head screws -- and I think they give the pistol a more refined look. The added length of the screws handle the right side with the grip panel and metal cover plate perfectly without any need for modification. On the left side with just the grip panel, the screws extended through the frame just a bit when fully tightened, causing an obstruction for the magazine. A few strokes of a needle file to each srew quickly solved this problem. The Allen head screw allows for a little more torque to be applied than possible with the original slot head screws -- so I am using them at present with no application of Loctite. So far, they are holding well after one function test range session.

As stated previously, this 10mm pocket pistol will handle any 10mm load that you choose to feed it. However, I expect the benefit of the hottest or heaviest 10mm loads will be negligible due to the 3 1/8" barrel. Therefore, I have chosen to carry Double Tap's Equalizer load -- using the added case capacity of the 10mm to allow two projectiles in each shot rather than extra powder that will most likely be burned outside the barrel. The Equalizer load offers a 135gr. Nosler bullet with a 95gr lead ball behind it. I'll post some pictures of targets in a followup range report, but this combination appears to be a winner for this particular pistol.

I'm toying with doing a few of these conversions for others -- either with your .40 S&W AMT BackUp or with new production pistols. I'm still working up the cost, but feel free to PM me if you are interested in a 10mm BackUp pistol.

Here, you can see the newly installed Rohrbaugh grip screws on the 10mm BackUp:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/flyandscuba/10mmBackUp.jpg

Duece McCracken
09-27-2010, 13:27
Wow, nice job, that is indeed a pocket cannon!

Bullman
09-27-2010, 13:58
Great Report. I was looking on Doubletaps site the other day and I didn't see the Equalizer load in the listings, are they still loading it, were you able to get some?

I still have a limited supply, but it would be nice to know I could get some more in the future if need be.

flyandscuba
09-27-2010, 14:24
Great Report. I was looking on Doubletaps site the other day and I didn't see the Equalizer load in the listings, are they still loading it, were you able to get some?

I still have a limited supply, but it would be nice to know I could get some more in the future if need be.

Yes, the Equalizer is what's in the last photo. I just checked DobleTap's website -- they're there, near the bottom of the 10mm offerings.

Bullman
09-27-2010, 22:18
guess I wasn't looking close enough.

agtman
09-28-2010, 04:53
As I promised, here is a range report from a little shooting today. While traveling on business, I stopped in to a range near Charlotte for a little afternoon session with the BackUp and my Pointman.

Blazer ammo ran fine through the BackUp. The only issue I had at all was two grip screws -- one on each side -- departed the frame during the shooting. Upon examining the screws, the first few threads appear stripped. I believe the screws are a little shorter than they should be and aren't getting a proper purchase into the threaded holes in the frame -- especially the screw that has to pass through the grip panel as well as the metal plate covering the trigger bar linkage that was left open in the older AMT BU's.

I'll order some new screws and possibly use a little Locktite to secure them.

Anyway, here is a picture of a target that received two magazines (10 rounds) at 3 yards. Standing slow fire, all 10 rounds made it center mass within a 4 inch spread. Eliminate the one "flyer" at the top, and the remaining group measures about 3.5 inches. Given that the pistol only has a channel on the top of the slide for a sight, I am well pleased with the accuracy considering the long and heavy DAO trigger pull.

My next step will be to assure reliable function with 50 rounds of chosen self-defense ammo. I'm going to try the new Double Tap 125 gr. solid copper HP as well as the 230 gr. Equalizer load to start.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/flyandscuba/100_0143.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/flyandscuba/100_0143-1.jpg

Absolutely outstanding! Congrats ... :thumbsup:

I'd like to find a 40S&W Mauser M2, with several extra mags, and attempt a similar conversion ...

:cool:

leadslinger13
09-28-2010, 22:35
now that might be worth a long hard look. this frame was built like a tank. Nice job!!! Still i had one years back in 45 acp and as mentioned before it was a jam a holic. how has this faired while shooting 50 rounds in succession? i bet the its a handful. If i remember correctly you had to really get a firm grip on the 45. can't wait to hear more about it. Great idea.

lordofmpower
10-11-2010, 11:19
Very interested in continued developments, also PM sent

BRONZ1
12-22-2010, 21:21
very nice