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Irelander
07-09-2010, 14:50
Where I work we are not allowed to carry firearms. Some of our older employees remember a time when we could, but alas, this has changed. Our employee handbook states that firearms and explosives of any kind are not allowed on company property. We also do not have a very good security system. It is only on when the shop is closed. During busness hours, most of the outside doors are unlocked. To me, and I'm sure most of you, this is a serious security problem.

So, a few weeks ago, a friend of mine interviewed at my company for the receptionist position. One of the questions she was asked by the owner was, "What would you do if someone walked in the front door with a gun?" A fair question indeed since every guest is supposed to walk through the front door to see the receptionist. My friend answered that she would attempt to calm the person down and call 911 if she was able. Not a bad answer. The owner replied that she should not do either of those things. She should only go get help.

To me, this is totally crazy. The entire company property is essentially a "gun free zone" (except for the guy walking through the front door with a gun) and the only defense we have is to go get another unarmed person to confront the suspect. If I felt comfortable enough, I would approach the owner and talk with him about this issue. If he is really concerned about someone walking through the front door with a gun ready to murder everyone, the least expensive thing to do is to remove the "no guns allowed" verbage from the handbook. This would allow law abiding employees to carry CCW and be able to defend themselves when necessary. Ideally the security system would be upgraded too so that the whole building is more secure. I've talked to a few of my friends that work here and they thought that the owner might be open to having a security team that made from employees who have been trained in corporate security measures. This team would carry concealed and no one would know about the team except for the owner and members of the team. I'm sure there are issues with this idea but it sounds like the right idea.

Just wondering if any of you have similar situations and what has been done or could be done to eliminate the "gun free zone"/slaughter house effect?

rangerabn
07-10-2010, 08:11
I wish I had the answer, but unfortunately most employers don't pick the right solution, but the politically correct one. If your employer has chosen to make the business a gun-free zone, then they most likely won't be agreeable to any of your suggestions, good as they are.

I wouldn't bring it up if I were you. It may single you out as a troublemaker. I have spoken out like that on other issues in my long history of employment, and sadly it has never worked out to my advantage. My honor is still intact, but I have lost jobs because of speaking out. Your employer may be different, but it doesn't sound like they are, considering their gun-free edict.

stillbill
07-10-2010, 08:37
Give the gunman directions to the the Boss office.

David Armstrong
07-10-2010, 11:58
When we went to a gun-free zone at the university, I didn't look at it as a "slaughter house effect", I looked at it as a "different security tools" issue. Firearms are one way to provide defense, but not the only way. Sometimes when they take away one tool you have to learn to utilize other tools.

Thunderbolt56
07-10-2010, 12:25
Tough, tough question. There's a certain school of thought that says something like this "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6" that goes by the mantra that if you're licensed to carry, ALWAYS carry.

If you truly feel vulnerable, you have a tough choice to make...usually it's either

1. Carry anyway and run the risk of termination and possible litigation depending on your state laws if you're discovered (which I'm not advocating, it's simply a choice).

2. Again, depending on your laws, leaving a weapon in your vehicle may be a "legal" option. According to Florida's laws, you're still allowed to do that without fear of prosecution though your employer can still take action based on their own policy.

3. Hope that new receptionist has formal training as a police negotiator. :whistling:

W4CNG
07-10-2010, 21:36
I work for a "Cellular Provider" read that as a Cell Phone Company. In the years past I did On Call and dispatch to sites that were in what we called "Two Gun" sites. That was you had a gun going into the site and you had another FT watching your 6 with a Gun. Then HR got involved. I told them that I would not go to sites that were at risk of harm during business hours or after hours when the sun had set. They wanted to know. I said if you do not know what risk you place your employees into at sites that are in the "Wrong side of Town" then you can get ready for Law Suits following incidents that will occur at those sites. The FT's have already located and identified those sites that are hazards because of local knowledge of the sites. After a period of time they agreed and it became company policy across the board. They still said no guns in the company trucks. I said don't ask and don't tell. During the XXXX Olympics I carried 2 guns when servicing sites in my town. When seconds count the Police are minutes away even when just around the corner from their neighborhood Precincts. I don't do that any more, but know many FT's that carry in company vehicles.

WilyCoyote
07-11-2010, 15:58
Your options if you don't want to quit are:

1. Obey company rules and don't carry, keep your job, and maybe get killed one day.

2. Disobey company rules, have your job until you make a mistake and someone sees your Roscoe or learns you carry one then lose your job. One day possibly save yourself and/or your coworkers, still lose your job, maybe get killed.

3. Openly attempt to change company policy, likely fail, putting yourself under the microscope, setting you on the track to the glass ceiling, making a follow-up option #2 harder.

4. Anonymously attempt to change company policy with an unsigned letter or something like that, likely fail, then chose #1 or #2.

Given that you work in an office, leaving a releatively low chance of armed robbery, my guess is that your own worry would be that of an active shooter type scenario. The chances of this circumstance vary depending on the amount of employees, who's crazy, who has stalkers, who has violent currents/ex's etc, but I would speculate the chances of an active shooter scenario would be next to nil.

My advice would be to take option one, as it has the most weight against your current standard of living given the relatively low likelyhood of an active shooter scenario. In this case I would make sure I knew the building like the back of my hand and both knew/practiced escape routes, hiding/barricading, etc. And carry an inconspicuous weapon like a folder or OC in a pocket.

However, if you had special knowlege of another employee being crazy, having violent currents/ex's, or direct threats against your person, I would definately take option #2 and be uber careful that no one knows, but you.

W

Deaf Smith
07-11-2010, 18:40
Give the gunman directions to the the Boss office.

Make it a pre-printed map to the bosses office. Also VERY clear instructons of where it is! Might even put a yellow follow-the-brick-road on the floor right to his door!


When we went to a gun-free zone at the university, I didn't look at it as a "slaughter house effect", I looked at it as a "different security tools" issue. Firearms are one way to provide defense, but not the only way. Sometimes when they take away one tool you have to learn to utilize other tools.

david, I bet your university is not only gun-free but any kind of weapon free zone, right? Just like the guy who posted this thread.

So what are those other tools? Staple guns? Chairs? Pens? Against an AK or shotgun?

I still think the map to the bosses office is the best one. If you can't stop gunfire, at least redirect it to some more deserving soul.

Like Topper Harley said, 'if you can't lose it, use it.'

Deaf

Irelander
07-12-2010, 07:03
Thanks for the advise guys. I'll have to give it a good think over. I just don't want to ever end up being "that guy"....the one who has a CCW but decided to play it safe and leave his gun at home or in the car and looked on helplessly while others died.

We are allowed to carry pocket knives at work. No restrictions there.

David Armstrong
07-12-2010, 10:25
david, I bet your university is not only gun-free but any kind of weapon free zone, right? Just like the guy who posted this thread.
Don't know about the guy who posted the thread, but the university is a firearms free zone. To date there have been no objections to fighting canes, knives, tasers, pepper spray, and assorted other things. Interestingly, there wasn't a problem with some of us carrying firearms until the recent push to let everyone carry on campus.
So what are those other tools? Staple guns? Chairs? Pens? Against an AK or shotgun?
If that is what you have, that is what you use. Firearms are a tool, you are the weapon.

degoodman
07-12-2010, 11:32
Make it a pre-printed map to the bosses office. Also VERY clear instructons of where it is! Might even put a yellow follow-the-brick-road on the floor right to his door!




david, I bet your university is not only gun-free but any kind of weapon free zone, right? Just like the guy who posted this thread.

So what are those other tools? Staple guns? Chairs? Pens? Against an AK or shotgun?

I still think the map to the bosses office is the best one. If you can't stop gunfire, at least redirect it to some more deserving soul.

Like Topper Harley said, 'if you can't lose it, use it.'

Deaf

I too work at a public institution of higher education, with both a statutory prohibition and a policy against firearms on campus.

Against an AK or a shotgun, your defensive handgun is outclassed too. I've read the "success stories" in the Glock annual, etc too, But I also recognize that those cases are in the minority. if someone brings a long gun to the party they are in the driver's seat. Fight with what you got, you are the weapon and your firearm is a tool, and all that jazz... but also clearly understand that the dude with a shoulder weapon is at a CLEAR and unambiguous advantage, and react accordingly.

In an office setting, one of my favorite tools is a dry chem fire extinguisher. Makes a great smoke screen, denies the sprayee the ability to breathe more effectively than OC, and makes a nice 5-10 pound club with a convenient T-Handle when empty. Noone really thinks anything about having one laying around the office if you stash one of your own at the desk, and fire code guarantees that there will be a number of them around the office for your use as well.

Having a firearm, without the knowlege of how to use it as part of a complete defensive package doesn't make you prepared. Just like not having a firearm on me in the office doesn't mean I'm completely emasculated.

Deaf Smith
07-12-2010, 17:08
Against an AK or a shotgun, your defensive handgun is outclassed too. I've read the "success stories" in the Glock annual, etc too.

Didn't say a handgun was the best tool, matter a fact I didn't mention handguns themselves, but like at this place

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/nation/7104563.html

I imagine a gun would have helped. Just about any gun.

Now that you guys mention other weapons, what I'd like to see is any stories where people used those fire extinguishers, staple guns, "fighting canes, knives, tasers, pepper spray, and assorted other things," and won against such gunmen running up a body count. Any out there?

I mean there are several where a gun was used, that's a fact, but fire extinguishers? Fighting canes? Tasers used on any office gunman? Pepper spray?

Deaf

Irelander
07-15-2010, 07:34
Are there any facilities that provide the type of training needed for this kind of security.