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PhoneCop
07-13-2010, 20:55
Tonight a student didn't show for a class. With nothing to do (and no expectation to be home soon) I headed to the public pistol range for some practice time and to dispense some free advice as I deemed.

A lady ('bout 65) shooting a .38 revolver turns to me and says, "I pulled the trigger and nothing happened," while pointing that .38 at my noggin.

A previous look at her target told me, as I ducked to the left, that she couldn't have pointed it more perfectly between my eyes if she wanted to.

So, for the more experienced trainers...

What did you do when you came to that point when you got frickin feed up with unsafe acts? Last week a wife muzzled her husband. This weekend a dude muzzled my son. Tonight a lady muzzled my head.

I fear the near come apart- when I jump in someone's ass with both feet and stomp about.

So, how'd ya handle it? What place did you come to.

GlocksterPaulie
07-13-2010, 21:05
All I can say is I hate to be muzzled by anyone for any reason, I feel if you are going to point it at me you better pull the trigger. This goes way back for me, I think I have mental scars from it.

When I was 14 years old I use to go bird hunting with a few friends. One of my friends dad had just bought him a new Rem 1100 for his birthday, I met him in my driveway to check it out. For some strange reason he pointed it in the air like he was following a bird, then he pointed it straight at my face.

We were about five feet from one another, I grabbed the end of the barrel and threw the gun down on my driveway. Scratched the hell out of the wood and the steel, he went home whining to his dad.

For the people who don't know any better I will gladly educate them, for the people who do know better I will gladly put them on their ass.

Paulie

Maine1
07-13-2010, 23:57
I kick them off my range. Their course fee is stupid tax. We spend time on saftey, and the hows and why's of it. Someone can make a mistake and learn from it and soldier on, becoming a better shooter because of this, but pointing the gun at someones head? Nope.

Gallium
07-14-2010, 05:07
The solution is to always be aware of your surroundings. "Situational awareness" does not only apply to when you are walking thru the valleys of shadows of death. Awareness is particularly more important when you are shooting on the range with a purpose towards enhancing fundamental gun skills, as that skills enhancing /building process requires almost total concentration on your part.

For starters, spend a few minutes studying the layout of the range and range rules. What is this you say? It's a public range, and everyone simply shows up to shoot? No posted rules, or rules are not strictly adhered to? That would be my 1st (warning/alert) flag.

Then, study the range officer. Is he/she alert? On the ball, ensuring folks are following the rules, without being a prick? A nazi? Keeps the firing line safe?

Or is there no range officer? If the RO is inept, slacking or lazy, or if there is no RO, that would be my 2nd warning flag.

Then, I pay attention to the folks on the shooting line with me. I look at each and every single shooter's ability - especially if the 1st two parameters of my "test" (above) come back with poor results. With no stated rules, and/or no RO, I would probably not shoot there. But if I did decide to shoot, the 5 or so minutes I spend looking at how folks observe safety rules, and in general how well (or poorly) they shoot will indicate to me how much effort I will be putting in my own shooting.

If I see folks immediately next to me or on the firing line ignoring/abusing/not understanding the range rules, I bring it to the attention of the RO. If there is no RO, I will point it out to them. Examples are:



If someone steps up to the ready area or firing line without eye protection, I flag a RO, or tell them they should be wearing eye protection. I have a boot with a .45ACP slug fragment still partially embedded in it as reminder, and I have gotten many nicks and cuts from shooting .357SIG out of a 6" barreled gun.
Violation of the safety rules - in particular, "safe direction". This gets correctly gently immediately. Future corrections come with reminders to pay attention to this rule, and warnings to maintain muzzle discipline.
Leaving the firing line to head downrange while the line is still hot. :faint: Yes, it does happen. I stop folks from doing this on occasion, because if they get plugged and I am there, I may have to render 1st aid, and I might get a bit of blood on me, and I would probably be late getting home from having to stay around and being a good witness, etc. The last time that happened my wife didn't believe me. She thought I was out having rough sex with some incredibly nubile young chic. :embarassed:




There have been times when I showed up somewhere to shoot with others, and elected to be the "silent" RO. Not where I'm telling people crap to not do, but where I decided to not shoot, but render advice to my associates and keep ME safe.

'Drew

PhoneCop
07-14-2010, 05:33
Maine1- I'm liking this idea at the moment. Maybe it's my mental state. Strongly considering a strongly worded statement that if you violate either rule of always keep the gun pointed in a safe direction or never point the gun at something you are not prepared to destroy by pointing the gun at me, yourself, or another person your class is finished. Have them sign said understanding.

Drew- it's a public range with safety officer and posted rules, but stupid is as stupid does. No range officer can stop the lady from turning in that split second. He had 10 plus other shooters to be observing. Like you I look and targets and watch gun handling to assess the gun-knowledge of those near me.



I'm just a little pissy because death comes in a nano-second when you combine carelessness and firearms.

stgha
07-14-2010, 06:03
You report them to the RSO or whoever is in charge of the range you are at.

Since this seems to be an ongoing issue there (by the other issues you mentioned), it seems that your safety is not their first priority.
I would find another range to shoot at.....
Then keep your eyes on the local news, cant be too long before someone gets hurt (or worse) there.

HK Dan
07-14-2010, 08:16
One warning and then we're done for the day. Now, I spend a bit of time going over gun etiquette at the start of each session, the 4 Laws, and the range rules. It's never happened, but it won't be a surprise to someone if it does.

Dan

GlocksterPaulie
07-14-2010, 11:23
I have been muzzled by the best of them. Instructors, SWAT and a few FEDS. What really pisses me off is the instructors out their who get off by how many certs they can hang on the wall, these guys are usually the ones that suck in the field.

As I have said in the past I will take an individual who has a lot of field experience over the book junkies any day.

Stay safe my friends, people die from friendly fire too.

Paulie

Deaf Smith
07-14-2010, 17:20
I've been swept running CHL classes not only by old ladies but by a head of a security guard company!

Hence the bullet proof vest I got.

With that being said newbie gun owners need lots of coaching on the safely rules BEFORE the range. And older men who say they know what they are doing can be the most dangerous (to you, no to the target.) So at any class the rules need to be explained before the guns come out.

Even classes with very experienced shooters need a refresher on safety. I can say SouthNarc and Tom Givens make sure of that at their classes!

Teaching shooting is not without risk! And my hats off to those who make it their primary employment.

Deaf

Hedo1
07-14-2010, 19:08
I'm an RSO and dispense free advice whenever asked. Also direct matches.

If the shooter should know better (experienced) I am a lot firmer and vocal. If it's a newbie I tend to be a lot more friendly about instructing them and warning of the danger. Nothing worse then a loudmouth RSO who starts at Volume 10 and works his way up from there in my opinion. Most people just tune them out.

Remember if it's pointing at you and close, move out of the way first, don't push the barrel of grab at the gun until it's pointing away from you. I've had folks walk up to me with the gun pointing right at my torso. Better to side step out of the way first before telling them what they did wrong.

Alaskapopo
07-14-2010, 19:56
Tonight a student didn't show for a class. With nothing to do (and no expectation to be home soon) I headed to the public pistol range for some practice time and to dispense some free advice as I deemed.

A lady ('bout 65) shooting a .38 revolver turns to me and says, "I pulled the trigger and nothing happened," while pointing that .38 at my noggin.

A previous look at her target told me, as I ducked to the left, that she couldn't have pointed it more perfectly between my eyes if she wanted to.

So, for the more experienced trainers...

What did you do when you came to that point when you got frickin feed up with unsafe acts? Last week a wife muzzled her husband. This weekend a dude muzzled my son. Tonight a lady muzzled my head.

I fear the near come apart- when I jump in someone's ass with both feet and stomp about.

So, how'd ya handle it? What place did you come to.

You need to handle the situation as calmly as possible. Moving out of the line of fire is fine obviously. After than calmy explain to the woman without getting too worked up that she needs to be aware of her muzzle. Freaking out will just drive shooters away and they will not learn anything and will still be dangerious out there. If you take the time to be kind and educate them you will make the world a bit safer for them and most importantly everyone around them. Most of these incidents are done by people who don't know any better. So resist the urg to jump down their throat with both feet.
Pat

PhoneCop
07-14-2010, 21:47
You need to handle the situation as calmly as possible. Moving out of the line of fire is fine obviously. After than calmy explain to the woman without getting too worked up that she needs to be aware of her muzzle. Freaking out will just drive shooters away and they will not learn anything and will still be dangerious out there. If you take the time to be kind and educate them you will make the world a bit safer for them and most importantly everyone around them. Most of these incidents are done by people who don't know any better. So resist the urg to jump down their throat with both feet.
Pat

I think I needed to hear this reminder. It's how I handle it. But too many events in rapid recent succession cut my fuse short.

PEC-Memphis
07-14-2010, 21:49
I recently became a life member at a nearby club in the area. I had to attend a mandatory safety / orientation class - I have no problem with that.

After the formalities, the SO goes about explaining how ignorant some of the LE officers he has trained are. One managed to shoot himself in the index finger. The he proceeds to demonstrate his theory on how this happened. The SO removes his gun from his holster, sweeps me with the muzzle - then places his own finger over the end of a muzzle with a loaded firearm. I moved around the front of a truck to back outside of his "sweep".

======

When I teach - I teach that muzzle awareness is the single most important safety rule, ie. always pointed in a safe direction, and that if this rule is always followed - property damage might occur but no one is going to get hurt.

Then I demonstrate, several times, the most actions which result in improper muzzle direction. Such as turning to ask a question, racking the slide, inserting a magazine, moving around a barricade (sweeping their feet - or worse chin/head), moving backwards, moving side to side.

I always describe (with demonstration) the thought of imagining a string tied to the front of the gun that is attached to the backstop - and no matter what position your body is in the muzzle is always pointed at the backstop.

I also state the appropriate places where the gun should be pointed, backstop/forward, 45* angle downward, (safe direction depending upon environment/situation and SUL depending upon the student), and holstering/holster (and don't point the gun at your hip while holstering). I've refined this part of the lesson based upon the same material in the Thunder Ranch video - which is actually pretty good.

I do this in the classroom and at the range (unless the range session immediately follows the classroom).

======

I generally do a dry fire session to get an idea if they might not be paying attention to muzzle awareness. If the students violate this and sweep anyone, or attempt to sweep anyone, I move out of muzzle direction (if it is me) and calmly take control of the firearm. Then we go over the rules again. So far, I haven't had to do it twice - but I'm sure there will be a time.

I've SO'ed a couple of people many times (30-40), and believed them to be fairly experienced, only to have them try, to sweep me when they were frustrated with their performance - in these couple of cases I managed to take control of the gun and direct it back to a safe direction.

GlocksterPaulie
07-14-2010, 21:58
I don't mind helping people out who don't know any better. But I don't have any patience for the people who think they know everything or the ones that say it is not loaded, my finger is not on the trigger.

Trust me I have heard this from a lot of people.

Paulie

Maine1
07-14-2010, 22:51
I make it a habit to always repeat things like " Index your trigger finger, control your muzzle direction and search and breathe.." while/after describing a course of fire. The guys i usually shoot with know this, and when i have one of them run the line, i have them do the same thing. Nobody gets upset, as they know wahy we do it.

Safetey is something that you always work on, along with perfecting your trigger control, ect, you learn to handle weapons safley on a range, in a vehicle, around others, in a stack, on a dead run, ect.

the safety aspect has to be well ingrained before the student moves forward. When i attend classes, i EXPECT a safety lecture, and not a ho hum one, i want the specifics of that particular environ discussed. To me , that shows profesionalism, and i learn more.

To date, i have never had to kick someone off the range. I have had to pull people aside, and explain that they were endangering other students, and if that they did that on the range, under stress they could kill someone they love. I try to put it in a context that will sink in to that person, making the need for safety real, and not just "a game we play at the range"

Alaskapopo
07-14-2010, 23:57
I think I needed to hear this reminder. It's how I handle it. But too many events in rapid recent succession cut my fuse short.

I don't blame you seeing a gun pointed at your head is enough to make anyone get angry in a short time.
Pat

K. Foster
07-15-2010, 19:19
You need to handle the situation as calmly as possible. Moving out of the line of fire is fine obviously. After than calmy explain to the woman without getting too worked up that she needs to be aware of her muzzle. Freaking out will just drive shooters away and they will not learn anything and will still be dangerious out there. If you take the time to be kind and educate them you will make the world a bit safer for them and most importantly everyone around them. Most of these incidents are done by people who don't know any better. So resist the urg to jump down their throat with both feet.
Pat

Well said.
The last thing an instructor, or anyone, should do is start shouting at someone that has a loaded gun. Be calm, polite, firm and professional.
Always.