135 Nosler JHP 14.5g 800X Still Safe? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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JayAlonG2910mm
07-16-2010, 09:17
I have finally got my hands on some 135 Noslers, and want to work up to nuclear velocities.

I plan to start around 10g and work my way up, just to be safe.

BUT,

I have read conflicting reports on the maximum load of IMR 800x.


12.7g vs 14.5g Both of these seem to produce similar velocities.


Has the formula of 800x recently changed? I know that the 14.5g load is no longer being published.

Whaledriver
07-16-2010, 12:34
The best I can tell you is work up your own loads. I think the 10g would be a good start especially if you have a stock barrel. As you mentioned 12.7 was as far as I needed to go with my gun, stock g20sf. You may or may or may not get to the 14.5. I did a lot of research on the 14.5 load and it seems that most people think it is an overcharged load, some don't. My feeling is I don't want to blow up a gun to see a few more fps on the chrono. Even at 12.7 the case was very full making the bullet seating an adventure. Also my limited experience with 800x seems to pressure spike rapidly when pushed to max pressures. This coincides with Hodgdon max 800x 10mm loads are all around 30,000 psi. Let us know how the loads turn out. Have fun and be safe.

JayAlonG2910mm
07-16-2010, 13:06
Thanks for the quick reply, I have blown up my gun before with a 230g Hardcast, and a bit too much 800x, so I am a little scared to push the limits until I know it's safe.

I loaded 20 each 10g, 10.5g, 11g, 11.5g. From here on I am going to increase the load .1g until I get a glock smile, or other excess pressure signs.

_The_Shadow
07-16-2010, 16:49
JayAlonG2910mm, sounds like you had learned from the book of "HARD KNOCKS"!

I have yet to work with the 800X powder, to date I have worked with Blue Dot, Power Pistol and AA #7 & #9 with the 10mm and those and some others with 9x25Dillon. I hand weigh each and every charge comparing on two different scales for weight agreement. I like 0.01 graing increments when working to the upper edge comparing 10 rounds at these weights, comparing cases, primers, velocities and pistol performance to the load used.

I guess you could say I air on the side of safety, with my hands and body on the line. We can NOT change the physics of the situation, push too hard and something will experience the affect!

jeffreybehr
07-16-2010, 17:23
Jay, I finally found that apparently-pre-Hodgdon IMR load you mentioned...in the One Book / One Caliber book for the .40S&W/10mm--14.5g. of 800X for 1670FPS and 33,100PSI from a 5" barrel.

I just filled a new Starline case to the brim with 800X, well settled with many taps and my finger covering the opening; it held a little less than 17 grains. I then refilled one to about a 1/4" down from the rim; that charge weighed c. 10-1/2 grains. A 14.5g. charge would be VERY compressed under any bullet you chose.

If I were attempting a maximum-velocity 135g. load, I'd use Accurate #5. That's the powder Lyman gets the highest velocity with (1397FPS from 9.8g. @ 28,200 CUP), and Accurate gets 1503FPS using 11.4g. at 36,900PSI*. Starting with new cases, I'd load FIVE (not twenty) rounds of each weight, starting at 9 grains and increasing 0.3g. at a time, thru maybe 9.9g., for the 1st trip, keeping each batch of fired cases separate, and then resize and reprime those that had 9.9 in them to determine how tight the primer pockets were. If the pockets of the 9.9s were tight, I'd creep upward 0.2g. each step for a few more steps.

Do you have a chronograf? IMO, every reloader ought to have one.

Good luck and be safe.


* You understand, of course, that Copper Units of Pressure and Pounds per Square Inch are NOT equivalent pressure readings.

JayAlonG2910mm
07-16-2010, 18:53
I just got back from the range.

WOW even at 12g this load feels like a .44 magnum, and my half inch steel target has the dents to prove it! Recoil with the stock G29 spring was very snappy and followups were slow. I wouldn't suggest this as a SD round, though it is quite fun to shoot.

I worked up to 12g tonight and have no obvious pressure signs... yet. (EDIT: Minor Glock smiles on 1/5)

I will work up to 12.5 tomorrow and see how that goes.

Meathead9
07-16-2010, 20:09
With the load data I have seen, the max charge varied with the type of primer used. Are you using standard or mag primers?

I have a pound of 800X, a couple boxes of 135gr Noslers, CCI300's & Winchester LPP's. I'll be working up the same load for my G20L soon.

JayAlonG2910mm
07-17-2010, 00:48
I have been using CCI 350 Mag primers.

I just went through my brass, and a few of the 12.0g charges are exhibiting minor Glock smiles from my stock G29 Barrel.

I plan to try a few tomorrow with CCI 300 primers.

JayAlonG2910mm
07-17-2010, 02:51
I was also using a very heavy crimp, could that cause overpressure?

JTknives
07-17-2010, 11:57
i had problems of flattened primers when using CCI-350 primers. but i have heard that CCI-350 and imr-800x don't mix well. and that CCI-300 is a better primer for that powder.

MSgt Dotson
07-17-2010, 15:29
I don't think I'd proceed beyond having visible "Glock smiles"/aka 6 oclock 'pregancy syndrome' on the cases using the factory barrel. IMO, such a bulge is eventually asking for trouble. YOur next warning could very well be a blowout, and, hopefully you will not see sympathetic detonation of ogther rounds in the mag, cracking the frame, etc....(Hopefully!)

A tighter aftermarket bbl alone will likely increase velocity by 50 -75 FPS as less pressure will be wasted fireforming the cases to the large (i.e., closer to max spec) GLock chambers....; in fact, once going to a tighter aftermarket bbl with better 6 oclock/ramp support, you might even want to reduce the loads .5 gr and work your way back up slowly. Once you start adding powder but see no increase in velocity, seems pointless to proceed without a longer bbl (most likely)....

jeffreybehr
07-17-2010, 15:44
Interesting, the use or nonuse of magnum primers.

Speer uses them only with some powders...HS-7, HS-6, and A9.

Lyman, VihtaVouri, Accurate, Sierra, Hornady, Nosler, and Hodgdon do NOT use them.

BTW Jay, Nosler's highest velociy with their 135 was with BlueDot, 12.5 grains for 1459 from a 6" barrel.

JayAlonG2910mm
07-18-2010, 06:14
I just shot 20 rounds of 135g Noslers 12.0g 800x out of my stock barreled G29.


10 with standard primers

&

10 with magnum primers

This time I used a very light crimp as opposed to the heavy crimp I had been using.

There were no pressure signs at all with the standard CCI 300 primers.

But,

Half of the CCI 350 magnum primer loads were Glock smiled.

The loads with magnum primers felt MUCH more powerful, but ruined the brass.

I plan to work up from here on with standard CCI 300 primers. But I think I am right on the limit of what my stock barrel can take.

What barrel has the best support for nuclear reloads?

Kegs
07-18-2010, 09:25
What barrel has the best support for nuclear reloads?

Good thinking. I came to this conclusion recently. I don't know the answer to your question, but I chose a KKM extended barrel, as I am looking to get as much as energy as possible from this compact pistol.

MSgt Dotson
07-18-2010, 20:12
What is the purpose of these loads? (Certainly not hunting, as 135 gr bullets lack penetration except perhaps on a mountain lion; and you already stated they are too much for SD loads....)

As for the barrel question, my own preference is for Lone Wolf...; however, LW is not offering any extended barrels for the 29....

Do your reloads drop flush with the barrel hood, BTW?

Taterhead
07-18-2010, 21:42
What is the purpose of these loads? (Certainly not hunting, as 135 gr bullets lack penetration except perhaps on a mountain lion; and you already stated they are too much for SD loads....)



I agree with your sentiment about the "...purpose of these loads." The 135 gr Nosler is probably well beyond the designed velocities with 14.5 gr of 800-X. This is the load that ranks as the all time ME champ in my 10mm auto loads, but... interesting, but not really too relevant.

They are really kind of a novelty. Loud. Fun to shoot, and fun to shoot at "stuff." They absolutely come apart in anything shot at. I have no doubt that they would be devastating to a BG in a tank top, but probably ineffective in the mountains I frequent. I prefer projectiles with a bit more sturdy construction.

I have successfully worked up to, and shot a number of, loads at 14.5 gr (cci 300). This was with batches of 800-X manufactured in the past two years. Ave. velocities areclose to 1700 fps :wow:. These are clearly nudging max pressures, but I did not encounter any symptoms of excess pressures. Even at nearly 100 degrees temp with a sunbaked range bag.

I have a bunch loaded in my safe at charges north of 14 gr. I may end up pulling them because 14+ gr of 800-X intuitively sounds like a charge that is a bit too stout. A tech at Hodgdon had the same opinion - and I trust the opinion of those who do this for a living (I haven't shot any since this conversation). I am an accountant and not a ballistician. What is the point of shooting something that is of dubious value if there is suspicion that they may be unsafe? The perplexing thing is that my load workups were asymptomatic; but the longer these loads sit in my safe, the more they have begun to give me the creeps.

It would be great if Hodgdon would do a retest and get the load published. Load workups are obviously part of the deal, but running through a pressure gun would improve the sense of "are we in the correct hemisphere?" They did not seem too interested when I spoke to them.

JayAlonG2910mm
07-20-2010, 04:05
What is the purpose of these loads? and you already stated they are too much for SD loads....


I am just loading these for fun. My hobby is to put holes/dents into steel plates... heheh.

As for self defense against humans, I prefer something a bit heavier with less recoil and quicker followups, but some would LOVE this round for self defense.

I am going to the range today to shoot 12.1g to 12.7 with CCI 300 standard primers.

JayAlonG2910mm
07-20-2010, 04:09
From my experiance CCI 350 Magnum primers in a stock barrel in this particular load are not ideal if you want to work up to heavier powder charges.

MinervaDoe
07-20-2010, 13:35
The 135 gr Nosler is probably well beyond the designed velocities with 14.5 gr of 800-X. This is the load that ranks as the all time ME champ in my 10mm auto loads, but... interesting, but not really too relevant.

They are really kind of a novelty. Loud. Fun to shoot, and fun to shoot at "stuff." They absolutely come apart in anything shot at. .... I prefer projectiles with a bit more sturdy construction.
Thanks for the info. That was enough to get me to cancel my Midway backorder. I'm sticking with the high retained mass of the 155 grain XTPs now.

MalumProhibitum
07-21-2010, 08:30
Good thinking. I came to this conclusion recently. I don't know the answer to your question, but I chose a KKM extended barrel, as I am looking to get as much as energy as possible from this compact pistol.

It appears that KKM no longer offers an extended barrel for the Glock 29.

http://www.kkmprecision.com/custom_pistol_barrels/home.php?cat=28

They still offer a 6 inch for the Glock 20.

Cam Cooke
07-21-2010, 11:00
I just talked with KKM yesterday morning the longest G29 barrel is appr 4.6"...

I already have a 4.25" 10mm & 40S&W barrels for my G29 so not going for one of these.

edit to add...

Just dug out my 135gr Nosler HP 14gr IMR800X/CCI 350 primer (I use a Lee factory crimp die with a 1 turn crimp adjustment) load/velocity data my remarks to myself were "starting to see pressure signs in both 4.6" stock G20 & 6" Barsto barreled Colt Delta Elite reduce min .5grs do not fire these loads in semi-autos to often"....

4.6" stock G20

1615fps -> 1685fps for 10 shots

6" Barsto barreled Colt Delta Elite

1807fps -> 1893fps for 10 shots

18.5" Contender carbine

2055fps -> 2092fps for 10 shots

MalumProhibitum
07-21-2010, 11:41
I just talked with KKM yesterday morning the longest G29 barrel is appr 4.6"... Weird that it is not on their web site.

Cam Cooke
07-21-2010, 12:01
I think you will find that there is not a lot on their site.

Meathead9
07-25-2010, 15:00
I am just loading these for fun. My hobby is to put holes/dents into steel plates... heheh.

As for self defense against humans, I prefer something a bit heavier with less recoil and quicker followups, but some would LOVE this round for self defense.

I am going to the range today to shoot 12.1g to 12.7 with CCI 300 standard primers.


Did you end up testing those rounds? Please post the results when you get a chance.

Kegs
07-31-2010, 08:04
Weird that it is not on their web site.

That is true, it is not on KKM's website - but they can cut you one! I ordered one and received it a couple weeks ago. It measures 4.55" from the cartridge head to the end of the barrel.

I am waiting to obtain a chronometer before I start really testing it.

JayAlonG2910mm
07-31-2010, 09:52
Did you end up testing those rounds? Please post the results when you get a chance.


I got to 12.4g of 800x CCI 300 primers with 135g Nosler JHP on top. They run fine, lots of recoil and blast.

Then, I ran out of the 135s.

Now I am starting to load a more self defense round. (IE) 180g xtp or Golden dot, AA #9, CCI 300 New Doubletap brass.

MakeMineA10mm
07-31-2010, 21:56
For SD, you might want to look at some 165gr bullets. They are my favorite "light" bullets in the 10mm. (I've never loaded anything lighter than 155grs in 10mm, and see no reason to...)

As far as the 135gr Noslers go, I think they are an answer in search for a question. The 10mm is all about medium-diameter, medium-weight bullets at medium-high velocity. Going to the 135 throws the "10mm equation" all out of whack... Fun, but not very useful, and when it comes at the risk of dangerous, what exactly is the point of the exercise? If you want some flash and bang oohs and aahhs at the range, Blue Dot with a 155gr bullet would probably be more fruitful.

Meathead9
07-31-2010, 22:22
nevermind...

Cam Cooke
07-31-2010, 22:26
If you check out my load velocities for the 135gr Nosler's you must realize I really like to have fun...

You should see what they do to rabbits... :)

MakeMineA10mm
08-01-2010, 19:43
Yeah, there's nothing wrong with having fun; don't get me wrong, I'm not against that.

It's just that there is such a thing as "load balance" and the 135s are not balanced. So much so, it gets to the point of unsafe, as you can see from the example brought up by the OP's question. The 135 is such a light bullet and gives so little bullet inertia/resistence, that slow-burners, especially those with touchy loading technique needs anyway-like 800X, get results where even powder and bullet companies get bad test data that results in bad data being published.

I do see one good use for the 135s, and that is for a low-recoil round for competition or familiarization, but even then, there is probably a particular balance point to load them high enough to give reliable function while still trying to keep recoil in control. For that load, and anytime 135s are the bullet on the menu, I bet a faster or medium-fast powder, like somewhere between W231 to Unique are ideal.

Now if the point of the exercise is to get a loud flash and big boom with a high muzzle energy load, Blue Dot, combined with a 155-170gr bullet will give you that in spades. It will be pretty high-energy load as well. And it will be much more balanced (and therefore safer and better-functioning) than the 135 x 800x combo. This isn't a load I use, but I've tried a few rounds after reading some of the reports of other members here about their results, and they're true.

Kegs
08-02-2010, 08:46
Blue Dot, combined with a 155-170gr bullet will give you that in spades. It will be pretty high-energy load as well. And it will be much more balanced (and therefore safer and better-functioning) than the 135 x 800x combo. This isn't a load I use, but I've tried a few rounds after reading some of the reports of other members here about their results, and they're true.

Oh yeah. 155gr. xtp over even 12.5g. blue dot using #350 primers sounds like a true hand cannon and will certainly explode milk jugs fine! :supergrin:

Cam Cooke
08-02-2010, 09:28
Even though I find the lighter bullets fun to shoot I hardly ever shoot lighter 135gr - 165gr bullets in my 10mm's now preferring 200gr XTP's & Beartooth WFNGC's @ 1200fps - 1250fps in my handguns and 1400fps + in the 18" Contender.

My practice load and the only 180gr bullets I normally shoot/load are 180gr Montana Golds with 350 CCI primers, 12grs - 14grs #9 powder.

I do have a few more boxes of 180gr Gold Dots on the shelf but those are being saved for now.

Kegs
01-12-2011, 11:49
I am in the process of loading up 50 rounds of CCI350 + 135 noslers and 800x.

Starting at 11.6 and going 0.2gr relays (5 shot) to 13.4 this run.

Running them through the chrono whenever I get around to it.

They are cheap bullets, so it's fun to see what they'll do.

For defense & hunting, I'll stick with the 200gr. xtps @ 1230 avg.

200 gr. xtps are serious bullets for the 10mm and .40 S&W (long).

Burien
01-12-2011, 15:48
135 gr Noslers with 13 gr of 800x 1.260" and Tula LP Mag primers = 1625 fps out of my G-29 My absolute MAX I feel comfortable shooting in my KKM stock lenght barrel.

11.5 grains will give you about 1450 fps with the Nosler 135 gr and the factory glock barrel keeps the brass OK. Do not go over 11.5 gr 800x in a factory Glock barrel, or you will bulge the brass, no longer able to reload it.

I had a back order for the 135 gr Noslers for months, got them in and they are running out again on the internet...

Kegs
01-13-2011, 06:37
Well then this should be pretty fun!

I'm running them all through the chrono.

(KKM 4.45" G29 barrel) :supergrin:

135 gr Noslers with 13 gr of 800x 1.260" and Tula LP Mag primers = 1625 fps out of my G-29 My absolute MAX I feel comfortable shooting in my KKM stock lenght barrel.

Burien
01-13-2011, 08:44
I dont think you can get 14.5 gr of 800x in a case, when you load 13 it seems to be just about to the top - 1/8"

Taterhead
01-13-2011, 22:44
I dont think you can get 14.5 gr of 800x in a case, when you load 13 it seems to be just about to the top - 1/8"

FWIW~ I have loaded several hundred at weights ranging from 14.2 to 14.5 grains. Tapping the side of the case settles the charge a bit and then the bullet can be seated. It is definitely a compressed load at that charge. There was no discernable case bulging and they cycled fine in my G20 stock barrel.

I no longer load or shoot these at charges that high though.

Kegs
01-14-2011, 20:04
Compressed load perhaps?

Taterhead
01-16-2011, 11:19
Compressed load perhaps?

Definitely!

Taterhead
01-16-2011, 11:22
I am in the process of loading up 50 rounds of CCI350 + 135 noslers and 800x.

Starting at 11.6 and going 0.2gr relays (5 shot) to 13.4 this run.

Running them through the chrono whenever I get around to it.

They are cheap bullets, so it's fun to see what they'll do.

For defense & hunting, I'll stick with the 200gr. xtps @ 1230 avg.

200 gr. xtps are serious bullets for the 10mm and .40 S&W (long).

Did you ever run these over the chrony?

MinervaDoe
01-16-2011, 13:58
Well then this should be pretty fun!

I'm running them all through the chrono.

(KKM 4.45" G29 barrel) :supergrin:
OMG, Kegs: You changed your profile nickname (custom user title).
:rofl: You must have a heck of a sense of humor.
Yup, waiting for the chrono data.
btw, I was reading Ken Water Pet Loads where he talks about loads having a predictable increase in FPS per grain of powder increase. Then, when the increase in FPS falls off to a smaller amount, this diminishing marginal return can be taken as a sign of excessive pressure.
Just wondering if your test is structured so that you could demonstrate this. Are you testing a number of different loads?

Kegs
01-16-2011, 19:08
Did you ever run these over the chrony?

Thought about it today but didn't do it. Probably would have been a nice day to do it - just didnt feel like going out there today.

It will be soon though. Perhaps tomorrow if the weather is right.

Kegs
01-16-2011, 19:31
OMG, Kegs: You changed your profile nickname (custom user title).
:rofl: You must have a heck of a sense of humor.

I aim to please. :wavey: :supergrin: Thanks for noticing.



Yup, waiting for the chrono data.
btw, I was reading Ken Water Pet Loads where he talks about loads having a predictable increase in FPS per grain of powder increase. Then, when the increase in FPS falls off to a smaller amount, this diminishing marginal return can be taken as a sign of excessive pressure.
Just wondering if your test is structured so that you could demonstrate this. Are you testing a number of different loads?

I am testing a slow workup on .40 s&w w/ 200gr. xtps and separately, a batch of 10mm with 135 gr. noslers - and will post a new thread based on the results of these tests.

My tests ARE designed in such a way to forecast an expected average velocity from one relay to the next.

I start within the book load #s (or lets say conservatively) and work up 0.2gr. powder each relay and check fired brass right after the relay is fired for any signs of overpressure or any other signs of well - abnormality.

I also note the velocities so that once I get to a point where I have 2-3 relays, I see a linear pattern in velocity...I simply extrapolate that pattern to forecast velocities.

800x has been very linear in its ability to forecast (so far), which has helped that quite a bit - but I haven't pushed it very hard yet.

I am not certain that xtps are tough enough to hold together if pushed REAL hard (maybe gold dots are a better design for this), but two things I will come to understand:

1. Will .40 s&w loaded long perform as well as 10mm in the 200 gr. category - with less powder!?

2. How much powder do I need to bring the 135 nosler into the 1600 fps range - with my extended barrel?