US Feds Duty Ammo v Heavy Cloth [Archive] - Glock Talk

PDA

View Full Version : US Feds Duty Ammo v Heavy Cloth


BrokenArrow
07-17-2010, 11:39
As used by DOJ (FBI/DEA/ATF/USMS) and DHS (ICE/CBP/USSS/FAM) since 1989 (based on what I remember and what I see now; updates welcome):

5 round avgs in gel through FBI spec heavy cloth (one layer of cotton T-shirt material (48 threads per inch); one layer of cotton shirt material (80 threads per inch); a 10 ounce down comforter in a cambric shell cover (232 threads per inch); and one layer of 13 ounce cotton denim (50 threads per inch). ICE/DHS spec heavy cloth is virtually identical. :

9x19
Win 115 STHP 11.8/.58
Fed 115 +P+ JHP 10.6/.62
Rem 115 +P+ JHP 10.9/.62
Win 115 +P+ JHP 10.1/.65
Speer 124 GD 17.5/.51
Rem 124 +P GS 14/.60 * (Current DHS duty load)
Win 147 JHP 18.1/.47
Fed 147 HS 14.9/.57
Speer 147 GD 14.7/.55
Win 147 Bonded 15.8/.58 (Current DOJ duty load)

40S&W

Win 155 JHP 13.1/.71** (Current DHS duty load)
Fed 165 HS 19.3/.56
Speer 165 GD 15.8/.60
Rem 165 GS 14.4/.66
Rem 180 GS 14.8/.67
Win 180 Bonded 19/.59 (Current DOJ duty load)

357SIG

Speer 125 GD 17.3/.51 (Current DHS duty load)

45 ACP

Rem 185 JHP 24.5/.55
Fed 230 HS 16.3/.66
Rem 230 GS 16.5/.69 (Current DOJ duty load)

* Also use Fed 124 +P HST
** Also used Fed 135 HST. New Win 135 JHP should have about the same expansion, less penetration, as the 155 JHP. It's the same design at the same speed, just lighter in weight. DHS also uses 155 JHPs from Remington and Federal.

DOJ has a 12 inch minimum penetration requirement, DHS a 9 inch minimum. Different protocols, different scoring systems. FBI tests for DOJ contracts, ICE for DHS contracts.

Different lots of ammo tested at different times may vary a little or a lot. Some of the stuff above has changed a little or a lot since the tests above. Your ammo and your bad guy may vary a little or a lot too. This stuff isn't shot into stone, don't carve it into stone. Do what I do: get what ya like, or flip a coin and like what ya get. :supergrin:

481
07-18-2010, 20:37
Informative post, good stuff.

Nice to see what the good guys are carryin' and what it does in tests. Much like you, I think that so long as one is comfortable with what they have loaded in their magazine, there are more important things to concern one's self about like the circumstances and conditions that will prevail during its use.

Amateurs focus on equipment; those with a professional mindset focus on training, technique and tactics.

YogiBearFan
07-18-2010, 21:14
BrokenArrow,

Just need a bit of clarification...

When you say say DoJ, whom are you referring to? DoJ (in of itself) is rather ambiguous, as the DoJ doesn't have "DoJ law enforcement officers" but the US Marshall's. (from my knowledge)

Here is the way I understood it...

Dir FBI -> Dept. of Justice -> POTUS
US Marshal service -> Dept. of Justice -> POTUS
US Border Patrol * US Coast Guard -> Dept of Homeland Security -> POTUS
CIA -> Director of National Intelligence -> POTUS

That said, I don't recall the 1989 FBI ballistics test having been updated to include the newer HST or bonded ammunition.

Eagle22
07-19-2010, 05:37
Does the term "Lowest Bidder" mean any thing"

BrokenArrow
07-19-2010, 09:45
Not much in this case.

For fed ammo and pistols the contract process is similar (but not identical). Minimum specs are established, items are inspected for compliance, then performance tested. Items are evaluated and scored, and a price is negotiated w top scorer(s) for best value for your tax money.

Simply being the lowest bidder will not get you the contract. If that was the case, everybody would have Rugers w USA, UMC, American Eagle, or Blazer ammo w generic JHPs in them. :supergrin:

FBI and ICE usually (but not always) do the ammo and pistol testing for DOJ and DHS agencies. Agencies can buy off those contracts or not (do their own testing and deals). The FBI and DEA have piggy backed each other's contracts in the past, and when ATF was looking for a pistol a while back, that contract would have been open to other federal agencies.

The DEA, USMS, Bureau of Prisons, etc can buy off the FBI contracts, or not. CBP, FAM, USSS, USCG, etc can buy off the ICE contracts, or not. You get better prices when you buy off a contract that negotiated for 65,000 pistols or 200 million rounds of ammo than smaller amounts, but some do it anyway.

Ammo testing by FBI/DOJ and ICE/DHS is ongoing. FBI info for the DHS 357SIG GD duty load is from 2001 for example. ICE/DHS had a HST contract in 2004 (up to 25 mil over 5 yrs), and a Winchester contract (up to 200 million rounds over 5 yrs) in 2009. FBI/DOJ had Winchester contracts in 2008/9.

Dexters
07-19-2010, 09:56
Any info like that for the 380 auto fired out of a Ruger LCP?

YogiBearFan
07-19-2010, 15:05
Thanks for the clarification. I know about some of the ammo contracts that are made public, but, had not seen a "concise" list of ammo tests in a long time.

Its interesting that even though Fed has such an elaborate contract with most manufacturers, states and municipalities can and often do get even better deals when they go direct vs GSA. (never quite figured this out...)

BrokenArrow
07-20-2010, 09:11
Keeping up w this stuff is like trying to heard cats...

DRT
07-20-2010, 17:03
I wouldn't choose any of the loads listed in the original post.

cowboy1964
07-20-2010, 17:42
I wouldn't choose any of the loads listed in the original post.

Why not? What WOULD you choose, and why?

BrokenArrow
07-21-2010, 08:18
Some would not choose any of the feds' pistols either. :supergrin:

Eagle22
07-26-2010, 12:15
Yup

Know a few feds here too. .357 FMJs Speer 125g only

Can shoot though auto glass and car doors.

Eagle22
07-26-2010, 12:20
One told me to shoot 165 or 180 gr 40 S&W FMJs dont bother with Hollow points. as I have a glock 22.

I said back to him YOU can shoot though car doors and windows, I cant.

He thought for a monment then said, Oh YAH. LOL

Merkavaboy
07-26-2010, 13:05
Yup

Know a few feds here too. .357 FMJs Speer 125g only

Can shoot though auto glass and car doors.

...and through the Perp, and into and through little Suzie playing with her dollies and into little Jimmy....

There's a very good reasons why FMJ/solid bullets are not used for LE or personal SD, and deadly overpenetration is at the top of the list.

Merkavaboy
07-26-2010, 13:11
One told me to shoot 165 or 180 gr 40 S&W FMJs dont bother with Hollow points. as I have a glock 22.

I said back to him YOU can shoot though car doors and windows, I cant.

He thought for a monment then said, Oh YAH. LOL

Run, very quickly, and in the opposite direction from this person, for he knows not of what he's talking about.

Eagle22
07-26-2010, 13:48
Run, very quickly, and in the opposite direction from this person, for he knows not of what he's talking about.

He was very high the food chain and was a tactical commander.

They are the ones who say stay away from JHPs

So one group says one thing another says something else.

I keep JHPs in my weapon at all times. Unless I am target shooting / practicing