Downloading mag tube... [Archive] - Glock Talk

PDA

View Full Version : Downloading mag tube...


Lampshade
07-20-2010, 07:36
Can anyone set me straight on what the deal is with keeping shotguns loaded?

I keep hearing tidbits about not filling shotgun mags up to full capacity.

Chamber empty and magazine tube downloaded one round?

Full magazine?

Thanks!

aippi
07-20-2010, 08:33
Correct. If you have a two shot extension for a 6 round capacity and plan to keep it in the closet loaded then keep only four round in the tube or no more then 5. The mag spring will compact over time and plan on changing it about once a year. If you have a Remington with an LE tube extension the spring is only $3.40 retail. Small price for confidence.

Now there are guys that are going to tell you springs don't compact by being loaded and you can max you tube out. This is simply not correct and you are risking a feed issue if the weapon remains like that for to long. I swear I don't know where they get the information they repeat but it is bordering on dangerous when people accept wrong info and act on it.

The subject is well covered on all these web sites so expect some wild answers. One guy even claimed his pump has been keep loaded in his closet for 20 years with the same magazine spring and it works perfect. That must be true because I read it on the internet :-).

Lampshade
07-20-2010, 08:50
I see... do you see any difference in pistol vs shotgun mags?

The reasoning I have heard is that is repeated compression/decompression over time that wears the spring.

If I were to use an extra powered spring and change it annually, do you think that makes having a full mag tube a viable option?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110557140508&rvr_id=&crlp=1_263602_263622&UA=WVF%3F&GUID=f0540ec61290a0e20196e7f6ff20fb3e&itemid=110557140508&ff4=263602_263622

aippi
07-20-2010, 13:12
I don't buy that either and if my primary weapon was a semi-auto hand gun I would down load, rotate mags and change those springs also. An employee of mine bought a Para 13 from a buddy and got three mags with it. All three had been maxed out in the guys safe for about a year. Niether mag would feed properly. New Wolf springs was all it took to get those mags feeding like new.

If others are convinced that they can do this to mags then they can do what they want. My life is to important to me risk over a few dollars in parts. You either need a weapon for defence or not, if you do, then maintain the weapon like you life depends on it, because it does.

Z71bill
07-20-2010, 21:48
Load it up to capacity don't worry about it -

A spring the size of the one in a 12 gauge can sit fully loaded for years and it will not be a problem.

The best thing is you can test it for yourself - really easy - when you clean the gun - unload gun (of course) - when you take the mag tube cap off guess what will happen - the spring will come flying out - when you go to put it back together you can see with your own eyes if it is good or not - because it will be a little hard to get the spring in & the cap on

BECAUSE THE SPRING WILL BE STRONG ENOUGH TO NOT WANT TO GO BACK IN THE TUBE WITHOUT A FIGHT.

David Armstrong
07-22-2010, 14:51
Can anyone set me straight on what the deal is with keeping shotguns loaded?
I keep hearing tidbits about not filling shotgun mags up to full capacity.
Chamber empty and magazine tube downloaded one round?
Full magazine?
Thanks!
What I have seen as the standard recommendations in my travels as a student and trainer, and what I teach:
LE uses "Cruiser Ready", which is a full mag, empty chamber, weapon off safe.
For home defense, chamber empty, mag downloaded by one round, safety off.

Aippi has pretty much nailed part of the reason, the spring issue. Despite what some say, the experts in the spring business and the gun business all seem to say that springs do wear out. In addition to helping spring life, the other reason is that having the chamber downloaded by at least one round allows you to easily execute a "select slug" drill.

Z71bill
07-22-2010, 19:47
What I have seen as the standard recommendations in my travels as a student and trainer, and what I teach:
LE uses "Cruiser Ready", which is a full mag, empty chamber, weapon off safe.
For home defense, chamber empty, mag downloaded by one round, safety off.

Aippi has pretty much nailed part of the reason, the spring issue. Despite what some say, the experts in the spring business and the gun business all seem to say that springs do wear out. In addition to helping spring life, the other reason is that having the chamber downloaded by at least one round allows you to easily execute a "select slug" drill.

Why the difference between LE & HD?


I expect the spring in my 870 will last for at least 10 years - even if I keep the mag fully loaded and shoot hundreds of rounds (mostly light loads at clay targets) a year.


First thing I did when I bought my 870 was replace the plastic follower with aluminum & put in a Wolff +10% spring.

It has been fully loaded for over 3 years and I have shot hundreds of rounds -

I still need to use a dowel to help guide / hold the spring in place when I put the gun back together after cleaning - I just don't see how anyone could think this spring is worn out.

I will try and not start a spring debate :yawn: - sure everything wears out at some point - springs mostly wear from use not sitting compressed.

It is - IMHO a good idea to make sure your gun is not set up to over compress the spring.

I have a Winchester Ranger that is set up (from the factory)to be a 4+1 gun - but I can fit 5 in the mag if I want - which leaves zero extra space and the spring 100% compressed. It would not be a good idea to leave this gun loaded with 5 in the tube. But with this much space left over with 4 rounds it will do no damage to the spring & could be kept loaded for 50 years without causing any issue.

But everyone needs to do what they think is best -

infinite97
07-22-2010, 19:56
870 is fully loaded with one in the hole, safety on

g19 is fully loaded with one in the hole

g19 spare mag is fully loaded

I honestly hope I'll never need 7 shells of 00 buck or 31 rounds of gold dot, but if I do, I have it.

deadday
07-22-2010, 20:23
Springs wear out through compression and decompression. A continued state of either will cause no wear on the spring.

CAcop
07-23-2010, 00:06
Springs wear out through compression and decompression. A continued state of either will cause no wear on the spring.

+1

I have been to 5 armorer's schools and this question ALWAYS comes up. Bottom line the FACTORY instructors relay what the ENGINEERS say to them: it's not the continous compression but the compression and expansion wearing out the springs. I'm sorry but I trust engineers who actually design the guns we shoot over people chest thumping.

I load up my mags to their limits and leave them that way. IF I rotate them out it is after I shoot whatever ammo is in them. The only time I have ever had srings go bad in a gun was when ammo was cheap and I put a couple thousand rounds through my issued Beretta in a year or so. A lot of up ad down for those springs in a short period of time.

Load it up to capacity and shoot it every so often. If it fails, replace it.

Let's be honest okay. Pump shotguns are not going to be as sensitive to bad springs as autoloaders. Even then most failures or due to no cleaning or no lube.

David Armstrong
07-23-2010, 11:29
Why the difference between LE & HD?
LE is generally restricted in what they can use, so the ability to select loads is diminished to some extent. And to a lesser extent the shotgun is becoming a special purpose weapon for much of LE, with the selection decided on well in advance. For the homeowner I see just the opposite, with the shotgun serving best in a general purpose role. Finally, LE SHOULD (emphasis mine) be more likely to have the shotgun on a regular maintenance schedule so the springs and such are being inspected on a regular basis. Yes, the homeowner should do the same, but IME it doesn't work out that way.
I will try and not start a spring debate - sure everything wears out at some point - springs mostly wear from use not sitting compressed.
Yes, the debate is already posted elsewhere, but since you brought it up many of the best-known manufacturers and custom gun makers disagree with that, as do the major spring makers.

deadday
07-23-2010, 12:28
LE is generally restricted in what they can use, so the ability to select loads is diminished to some extent. And to a lesser extent the shotgun is becoming a special purpose weapon for much of LE, with the selection decided on well in advance. For the homeowner I see just the opposite, with the shotgun serving best in a general purpose role. Finally, LE SHOULD (emphasis mine) be more likely to have the shotgun on a regular maintenance schedule so the springs and such are being inspected on a regular basis. Yes, the homeowner should do the same, but IME it doesn't work out that way.

Yes, the debate is already posted elsewhere, but since you brought it up many of the best-known manufacturers and custom gun makers disagree with that, as do the major spring makers.

I think the spring debate is most akin to the cello on or off cigar debate...maybe we should send this one to MythBusters?

Hedo1
07-23-2010, 13:13
What I have seen as the standard recommendations in my travels as a student and trainer, and what I teach:
LE uses "Cruiser Ready", which is a full mag, empty chamber, weapon off safe.
For home defense, chamber empty, mag downloaded by one round, safety off.

Aippi has pretty much nailed part of the reason, the spring issue. Despite what some say, the experts in the spring business and the gun business all seem to say that springs do wear out. In addition to helping spring life, the other reason is that having the chamber downloaded by at least one round allows you to easily execute a "select slug" drill.

That's the way I was trained with the shotgun also.

Cruiser Ready to give you the option of a slug first. If not rack the first round of buck in and top off the mag if you have time.

Z71bill
07-23-2010, 15:10
Yes, the debate is already posted elsewhere, but since you brought it up many of the best-known manufacturers and custom gun makers disagree with that, as do the major spring makers.

Maybe they like to sell springs. :shocked:

I can't see how myth busters could do a test - load up a Remington 870 - wait 50 years - see if it jams. :cool:

Spiffums
07-23-2010, 15:37
LE is generally restricted in what they can use, so the ability to select loads is diminished to some extent. And to a lesser extent the shotgun is becoming a special purpose weapon for much of LE, with the selection decided on well in advance. For the homeowner I see just the opposite, with the shotgun serving best in a general purpose role. Finally, LE SHOULD (emphasis mine) be more likely to have the shotgun on a regular maintenance schedule so the springs and such are being inspected on a regular basis. Yes, the homeowner should do the same, but IME it doesn't work out that way.

Yes, the debate is already posted elsewhere, but since you brought it up many of the best-known manufacturers and custom gun makers disagree with that, as do the major spring makers.


I would expect Spring makers to disagree......... they want to sell more springs.


From my experience, my stock Remmy spring went fully loaded for about 10 years before it started not pushing out the last 1 or 2 rounds in the tube. A little internet order to Wilson and I had a new follower and spring in a rebuild kit.

I have a spare or 2 around so it's not really something I worry about.

Z71bill
07-23-2010, 18:29
Since I have only been shooting pump action shotguns for about 40 years and have never had a spring fail -

I was wondering - when one does fail -

Which round in the tube is most likely to fail?

Is it more likely the first few or the last few will start to cause a problem?

Or is it just random?

On one hand I could see the first round being most likely to fail - the tube is full and the load on the spring to push 6 rounds would be heavier.

On the other hand when you only have one or two rounds left if the spring was weak it seems like this would be when the spring is most likely to not have enough "spring" left to push out the last few rounds.

Mjames
07-23-2010, 19:01
:horsey:

22highcaps
07-23-2010, 19:16
If compression and decompression (i.e. use) were really the only things that wore springs then the spring from a mag tube that had been left fully loaded for a long period of time would return to its original length when removed from the gun.

Z71bill
07-23-2010, 22:15
If compression and decompression (i.e. use) were really the only things that wore springs then the spring from a mag tube that had been left fully loaded for a long period of time would return to its original length when removed from the gun.

This is the reason so many people think mag springs wear out.:upeyes:

When my 870 was new the mag spring was almost 40 inches long -

It has been fully loaded for about 3 years - I cleaned it today - it is about 36 inches long.


A spring does shrink some when compressed - but that is normal - it is expected - it has been taken into account when the gun was designed.

I will guess (wild guess) the first few weeks it shrank a couple inches - then maybe an inch the next 6 months - then an inch in 2 years -

But my mag tube is only 18 inches long - how long of a spring do I need?

B Coyote
07-23-2010, 23:27
I owned a M590 before my current 870. I did have feed issues after keeping the mag tube loaded full for several years (with a fair amount of shooting in the mix). It was always the last half of the magazine that had problems.

That said, I do keep my 870's tube fully loaded. I do change the magazine spring annually as insurance.

bc

dc2integra
07-23-2010, 23:46
wat if u dont have a +2 mag extension do u guys think it safe to keep the shotgun fully loaded cause i have a mossberg 500 and it holds 5+1 so i keep 6 in there at all times

22highcaps
07-24-2010, 07:26
This is the reason so many people think mag springs wear out.:upeyes:

When my 870 was new the mag spring was almost 40 inches long -

It has been fully loaded for about 3 years - I cleaned it today - it is about 36 inches long.


A spring does shrink some when compressed - but that is normal - it is expected - it has been taken into account when the gun was designed.

I will guess (wild guess) the first few weeks it shrank a couple inches - then maybe an inch the next 6 months - then an inch in 2 years -

But my mag tube is only 18 inches long - how long of a spring do I need?

:eyebrow:
So exactly how much shrinkage is designed in so I will know when it has exceeded that point and needs to be replaced?

Z71bill
07-24-2010, 09:24
:eyebrow:
So exactly how much shrinkage is designed in so I will know when it has exceeded that point and needs to be replaced?

I do not know -

I have spent a lot of time with engineering types - mostly building & equipment design. I am not an engineer.

They do a detailed calculation - say to determine what size steel beam is required on a platform to support a 25,000 pound machine 20 feet in the air.

Really impressive stuff - all figured out to .00002 of an inch tolerance - then they double or triple the size of the beam to allow a margin of error. :upeyes:

I assume the same engineering logic is used on gun design. :dunno:

sailor
07-24-2010, 09:25
I have heard that cold can cause shrinkage.:cool:

Fwdftw
07-24-2010, 09:51
True story ^

David Armstrong
07-24-2010, 12:59
I think the spring debate is most akin to the cello on or off cigar debate...maybe we should send this one to MythBusters?
Could be a plan. Personally, when the folks that specialize in knowing this stuff are saying "do this" or "don't do this" I tend to agree with them until somone provides compelling proof otherwise, particularly when the "do this" really doesn't create any adverse impact.

David Armstrong
07-24-2010, 13:24
Maybe they like to sell springs.
Maybe they like their guns to work corrrectly? We've been through this before, and while there are examples of mags staying compressed for long periods of time without any trouble there are also plenty of examples of mags not working well after being compressed for not such a long period of time. I tend to think tht when custom makers, manufacturers, spring specialists, the military, and on and on all come to the same conclusion there is enough support to give it credence, again given the fact that the proposed solution really doesn't adversely impact the effective use.

I'm sorry but I trust engineers who actually design the guns we shoot over people chest thumping.
But you don't trust engineers who actually design the springs that many say are the best to put in the guns we shoot? Strange.

David Armstrong
07-24-2010, 13:31
I owned a M590 before my current 870. I did have feed issues after keeping the mag tube loaded full for several years (with a fair amount of shooting in the mix). It was always the last half of the magazine that had problems.
bc
That was my experience also, only with the old Mossberg 500 LE version. Couple of years of riding in the car with a full mag and it began having feeding problems with the last couple of rounds. Replaced spring, no problems.

Z71bill
07-24-2010, 15:25
That was my experience also, only with the old Mossberg 500 LE version. Couple of years of riding in the car with a full mag and it began having feeding problems with the last couple of rounds. Replaced spring, no problems.


I have read that some LEOs had problems with the mags in their double stack carry pistols - it was being blamed on weak springs - but had something to do with the rounds in the mag rubbing against each other for long periods of time - motion cause by the officer walking.

The solution was to rotate the rounds in the mag every month or so.

I wouldn't think the bouncing motion of a shotgun ridding around in a police cruiser would have any impact on the mag spring - but who knows - sometimes the gun is stored in the truck - other times it looks like they are carried in a rack thingy in the front - stored butt down. :dunno:

BTW - to anyone - when you did have a failure - did the bad spring still appear to look good - no visible signs of a problem - and did it still seem strong?

L-2
07-24-2010, 15:31
deleted

RonboF117
07-24-2010, 20:27
If you go to Wolff's site they'll tell you if you are going to keep it fully loaded for extended periods of time - use the high power springs. Otherwise, download a round.

CAcop
07-27-2010, 17:03
:eyebrow:
So exactly how much shrinkage is designed in so I will know when it has exceeded that point and needs to be replaced?

From what I have seen with the pistol mags I have inspected over the years at work and from what my Glock, Sig, Colt, and Beretta factory armorer instructors have said they take a set and then stay there for a long time. With use they weaken.

Like I said before the only springs I have had to replace on mags were the ones that got used a lot in a very short period of time.

CAcop
07-27-2010, 17:06
But you don't trust engineers who actually design the springs that many say are the best to put in the guns we shoot? Strange.

Maybe I really don't care what anonymous people on the internet tell me versus instructors who are putting their reputations on the line. Not to mention civil liability should I follow their instruction to someoen else's deteriment.

Some people on the spring issue are like the guy at work who downloads his mags every week and then complains about the springs wearing out after 10 years of doing this. That and he tells me he downloads his mags by one to prevent this from happening.

Z71bill
07-27-2010, 21:32
http://www.gunsprings.com/faq

Most of their concern seems to be with pistol mags that are high capacity - I am reading between the lines - but I think they are talking double stack mags like in a G30 where they really tried to force ever possible round in the mag.

They do point out that a mag - like in a 1911 with 7 rounds will last for years fully loaded.

IMHO some manufactures of double stack pistols are pushing the limit on the spring - making it as small as possible so they can squeeze in one more round - and have as a result over compressed the spring.

We are talking about 12 gauge pump action shotguns - where even with the mag fully loaded the spring is not over compressed - at least mine are not.

Wolff also has a specific answer to the shrinking spring question - look at #6.

I have not changed my mined on this issue one bit - load up the mag of your shotgun and don't worry about it.

Hydra-SHOKz
07-28-2010, 03:34
I have 2- 5 shot 870's I keep fully loaded 24/7. I use Wolff XP springs and change them out once a year. Never had a problem.

One issue you might want to consider is hull deformation/crushing. I've had issues with Hornady TAP hulls and no issues with Federal hulls. I usually get to the range once a month or so with my 870's, I just blast out the old stuff and after cleaning replace with new ammo.

CAcop
07-28-2010, 05:02
http://www.gunsprings.com/faq

Most of their concern seems to be with pistol mags that are high capacity - I am reading between the lines - but I think they are talking double stack mags like in a G30 where they really tried to force ever possible round in the mag.

They do point out that a mag - like in a 1911 with 7 rounds will last for years fully loaded.

IMHO some manufactures of double stack pistols are pushing the limit on the spring - making it as small as possible so they can squeeze in one more round - and have as a result over compressed the spring.

We are talking about 12 gauge pump action shotguns - where even with the mag fully loaded the spring is not over compressed - at least mine are not.

Wolff also has a specific answer to the shrinking spring question - look at #6.

I have not changed my mined on this issue one bit - load up the mag of your shotgun and don't worry about it.

You pretty much got it right. Beretta 92 mags can hold 16 rounds even though they are rated for 15. They are very hard to insert like that. One of our cornfed guys managed to do it and destryed the spring in the process. For awhile the Glock mags we were getting could barely hold 14 rounds of .40 let alone the rated 15. When they set you could get 15 in. So far they still work but I wonder.

As for my 590A1 I can get 5 2.75 shells in there with space for about 2/3 of an extra. That is plenty of slack.

Z71bill
07-28-2010, 08:50
I have 2- 5 shot 870's I keep fully loaded 24/7. I use Wolff XP springs and change them out once a year. Never had a problem.

One issue you might want to consider is hull deformation/crushing. I've had issues with Hornady TAP hulls and no issues with Federal hulls. I usually get to the range once a month or so with my 870's, I just blast out the old stuff and after cleaning replace with new ammo.

I need to shoot up my "previously" loaded buckshot - I have been using my 870 to shoot clays - so before I head to the range I cycle the buckshot out - replace the 18.5" barrel with a 30 inch and blast away.

While cleaning I noticed the brass on the buckshot is looking sort of scuffed up - went to get some fresh buckshot & I now have 18 rounds that look like reloads.

First thing I did was replace the mag spring in my 870 with a Wolff +10% or XP whatever they call it - I will take a guess - that even after staying fully loaded for 3 years - the used Wolff spring in my gun is still stronger than the unused Remington spring.

deadday
07-28-2010, 09:44
Could be a plan. Personally, when the folks that specialize in knowing this stuff are saying "do this" or "don't do this" I tend to agree with them until somone provides compelling proof otherwise, particularly when the "do this" really doesn't create any adverse impact.

Problem is, half the people that specialize in this stuff say do it, the other half say don't do it.

aippi
07-28-2010, 11:55
Great points about half saying yes and half saying no. So if you really have a need for this weapon in a situation where your life is on the line, why would anyone risk a feed issue for the lack of a $4 spring?

Guys spend hundreds of dollars or even thousands on their weapons yet some insist on keeping magazine springs past the life that the manufacturer of these springs recommends when changing them out only cost a few dollars. That is just wrong headed thinking.

All this reminds me of the debate about the life of our ballistic panels for our vest. About 5 years back then, don't know about now. You could assume that an 8 year old panel would stop a round, but I want the new one. See why I am an old man now? I don't take chances with the equipment that I rely on to safe my A double S

Z71bill
07-28-2010, 12:18
Great points about half saying yes and half saying no. So if you really have a need for this weapon in a situation where your life is on the line, why would anyone risk a feed issue for the lack of a $4 spring?

Guys spend hundreds of dollars or even thousands on their weapons yet some insist on keeping magazine springs past the life that the manufacturer of these springs recommends when changing them out only cost a few dollars. That is just wrong headed thinking.

All this reminds me of the debate about the life of our ballistic panels for our vest. About 5 years back then, don't know about now. You could assume that an 8 year old panel would stop a round, but I want the new one. See why I am an old man now? I don't take chances with the equipment that I rely on to safe my A double S

OK - tell me which part of your shot gun costs more to replace than the value of your life?

Is the $10 extractor - or $6.00 you spend replacing extractor spring & plunger worth more than your life?

What about the firing pin? Trigger spring?

Is the value of the whole gun greater than your life?


Do you replace all of these parts or your whole gun every year?

If not why?

Trying not to be a smart ass - but either your logic is correct or not - why would you trust your life on a 1 year old extractor?

my762buzz
07-28-2010, 18:59
I got a 10 year old 870 that has been fully loaded with 6 in the magazine 99% of the time when I am not using it since 2000. It still feeds perfect with the original spring. What I have seen that was concerning to myself was buckshot cartridges swelling with outward ball dimples after some time compressed inside the mag. If they swelled any more, they might not have ejected from the magazine at all. I switched to forster slugs in the magazine and no more swelling. Problem solved.

Z71bill
07-30-2010, 07:52
Not worth starting a new thread - so I will try and ask it here -

I have never owned a Mossberg - always Winchester & Remington -

I have been considering buying a Semi-Auto shotgun - and I keep coming back to a Mossberg 930 - I like the 930SX like this one

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/manufacturers_id/83/products_id/52355

So the question is -

My Remington 870 came from the factory with an 18.5 inch barrel & mag extension that goes all the way to the end of the barrel. 6+1 capacity.

The Mossberg comes from the factory with an 18.5 inch barrel & mag extension that goes all the way to the end of the barrel. 7+1 capacity.

What magic does Mossberg use to get the extra shell in the mag?

Is their gun design different - or do they just jam an extra round in the tube?

It seems related to this thread - sort of -

If both Remington & Mossberg use an 18.5 inch (or about) mag tube does than mean the Remington has less risk of spring over compression?

It seems like Remington is giving an extra 2+ inches for the spring - or in a way already downloading one round.

If I get the Mossberg 930SX I may need to download a round. :alex:

Hydra-SHOKz
07-30-2010, 09:18
The mag tube looks like it extends just a hair past the end of the barrel. That would be my guess.

David Armstrong
07-30-2010, 15:12
Maybe I really don't care what anonymous people on the internet tell me versus instructors who are putting their reputations on the line. Not to mention civil liability should I follow their instruction to someoen else's deteriment.
Fair enough, but it is not just anonymous people on the internet saying this, it is assorted well known manufacturers, trainers/instructors, and what is probably the biggest dedicated after-market sping manufacturer in the world. And you'vv lost me, how in the world does one become open to civil liability by downloading a magazine by one round?

David Armstrong
07-30-2010, 15:17
Problem is, half the people that specialize in this stuff say do it, the other half say don't do it.
Exactly. And given the potential problem and the easy solution, I just don't see it creating the attention. I mean, gee, how hard is it to slip a round into the mag?

1 old 0311
07-30-2010, 15:18
Springs wear out through compression and decompression. A continued state of either will cause no wear on the spring.

EXACTLY!!!!!!!! This applies to ALL springs, not just mag springs. That is why a valve spring, or coil spring, will get weak on a car with 300,000 miles on it, but NOT on a car that sits in a garage for 20-30 years.

David Armstrong
07-30-2010, 15:21
Do you replace all of these parts or your whole gun every year?
If not why?
Can't speak for aippi, but for me when I was on the streets all springs and parts that were kept under stress were replaced each year.

heliguy
07-30-2010, 16:21
Load it up to capacity don't worry about it -

A spring the size of the one in a 12 gauge can sit fully loaded for years and it will not be a problem.

The best thing is you can test it for yourself - really easy - when you clean the gun - unload gun (of course) - when you take the mag tube cap off guess what will happen - the spring will come flying out - when you go to put it back together you can see with your own eyes if it is good or not - because it will be a little hard to get the spring in & the cap on

BECAUSE THE SPRING WILL BE STRONG ENOUGH TO NOT WANT TO GO BACK IN THE TUBE WITHOUT A FIGHT.

Local LEO's will echo this thought....