Zeroing home defense AR at 10 yards? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Steamboat Bill
07-27-2010, 12:11
I was reading a magazine article by Ed Head ('The House Carbine,' Personal & Home Defense, Gun Buyer's Annual Presents #92, 2011, page 38) in which he stated he zeroed his house carbine at 10 yards -- "the average open distance in the typical home." This was done to avoid offset issues, and allow him to hit targets right where he places the red dot.

My questions: Does anyone have any opposing opinions about this approach for an AR that is being used only as a home defense weapon? Is there a reason that a "non-trigger-pulling non-operator" who wants to use an AR-15 as a home defense weapon would need to follow the popular advice which advocates a much longer zero distance? What negative consequences would one encounter by choosing this 10 yard zero approach (for a home defense use carbine)?

faawrenchbndr
07-27-2010, 12:21
A 10 yard zero would be fine,.....

I zero mine at 50 yards. With this the bullet is never more than 2" from point of aim from muzzle to 220 yards

RyanNREMTP
07-27-2010, 12:29
Mine is zeroed in at 25 yards. I use my rifle not just inside the house but outside the house and if they are outside the 25 yards then they are not on my property anymore.

Gunnut 45/454
07-27-2010, 12:38
At 10 yards it will not make any difference what you zero at - unless your zeroed at 500 yards or more! The standard 100 yards zero you'll be hard pressed to see a difference at ten!:rofl:

fuzzy03cls
07-27-2010, 12:46
I agree. At such a short distance zero won't matter unless it's way way off. I zero at 50 yards. But I use my AR for different things. A 25yd zero would be fine.

mixflip
07-27-2010, 12:51
+1 for the 50 yard zero. That should give you decent accuracy out to 100 yards and up close inside of 25 yards still. If you are engaging targets past 100 yards in a home defense situation... you pretty much are not defending your home anymore. (unless you live in a humongous mansion of course? lol.)

vafish
07-27-2010, 14:14
Wow,

I can't think of a more useless zero.

I just punched in the numbers into a ballistics calculator and if the AR10's sight is 2.5" above the bore line and you zero a 165 gr bullet at 10 yards at 400 yards you are 55" ABOVE line of sight and you don't cross back down to zero until 775 yards.

Using the same bullet and velocity with the 50 yard zero it is like faawrenchbndr says never more then 2" plus or minus out past 200 yards. With the 50 yard zero you will hit 1.91" low at 10 yards.

Inside my house if I'm 2" off I think my shot placement will be just fine. And if for some reason other then home defense I need to fire my rifle outside the house I know I can hold dead on out to 200 yards.

Being dead on inside your home is nice, but there is a chance you may have to use your rifle outside your home. What happens when the drug house around the street lets their pit bulls out one day and they are chasing kids around the neighborhood. Are you going to remember that you have to hold under 15 inches at 70 yards? Or are you going to run 65 yards before taking the shot (while the pit bull is still running around as well)

You may think your rifle is just for home defense, but there is a chance you may need to exit your home with your rifle. Having is set up with a good all around zero is a good idea.

Steamboat Bill
07-27-2010, 14:26
vafish - That was pretty much my initial opinion (minus the ballistics calculator:cool:). I was wondering if I was missing something.

I remember Kyle Lamb in 'Green Eyes and Black Rifles,' said something along the lines of select your zero for best versatility and flexibility rather than for one specific factor. IMO, the 10 yard zero is too limiting. I'd rather have the flexibility to still be good out to around 200 yards and within a couple of inches at any distance between.

FatBoy
07-27-2010, 14:30
I just prefer to know my offset up close. YMMV

FB

vafish
07-27-2010, 14:34
I just prefer to know my offset up close. YMMV

FB


Yep, if you have that much time to make that precise of a shot then just aim 2" high.

If you got a 50 yard zero and will be hitting 2" high at 10 yards and you put your red dot between the guys eyes you'll hit just above the tip of his nose. I think most .223 or .308 rounds hitting the tip of a persons nose will pretty much solve your problem.

And you still have a good all around zero in case you need to take your rifle outside.

If you set your rifle up for one specific situation Murphy is going to come along and throw something else at you.

Achped
07-27-2010, 14:35
I became a fan of the 50m/50y zero with my ARs on Saturday....when I was consistently hitting a 12" steel plate with my eotech and no magnifiyer...at 220 yards.

If I had a dedicated home defense gun, I would maybe use a 10 yard zero, but thats what my glock is for.

NeverMore1701
07-27-2010, 14:51
Never, for all the reasons above. 50m zero with +/- 2" from 0 to 220m is perfect for me.

Chuck TX
07-27-2010, 15:30
50 yard zero for me. It's a lot more practical IMO to pick a zero with a relatively flat flight path and then practice and ingrain into your memory where the bullet will hit in comparison to the line of sight. Rather than pick zero with a drastic rise and hope that all shots take place at 10 yards. With the 50 yard zero, even if you don't immediately know the distance of the shot is still only going to be a max of 2" low up close or 2" high around 150 yards.

lawman800
07-28-2010, 00:37
Great.... back to the range for re-zeroing.

ronin.45
07-28-2010, 00:48
Wow,

I can't think of a more useless zero.

I just punched in the numbers into a ballistics calculator and if the AR10's sight is 2.5" above the bore line and you zero a 165 gr bullet at 10 yards at 400 yards you are 55" ABOVE line of sight and you don't cross back down to zero until 775 yards.

Using the same bullet and velocity with the 50 yard zero it is like faawrenchbndr says never more then 2" plus or minus out past 200 yards. With the 50 yard zero you will hit 1.91" low at 10 yards.

Inside my house if I'm 2" off I think my shot placement will be just fine. And if for some reason other then home defense I need to fire my rifle outside the house I know I can hold dead on out to 200 yards.

Being dead on inside your home is nice, but there is a chance you may have to use your rifle outside your home. What happens when the drug house around the street lets their pit bulls out one day and they are chasing kids around the neighborhood. Are you going to remember that you have to hold under 15 inches at 70 yards? Or are you going to run 65 yards before taking the shot (while the pit bull is still running around as well)

You may think your rifle is just for home defense, but there is a chance you may need to exit your home with your rifle. Having is set up with a good all around zero is a good idea.


This exactly. The zero should be as universal as possible. You would severely limit your guns usefulness if you zero at ten yards.

Novocaine
07-28-2010, 01:07
It's the reason I consider Mini or M1 Carbine to be MORE accurate at indoor distances: low sight line makes POI very close to POA from point blank out to 25 yards. I don't think one inch here or there means much but if this kind of surgical precision at indoor ranges is important to you I'd consider switching platforms.

Andrewsky
07-28-2010, 01:19
I personally sight in my 16" AR for 50 yards. Sighting it in for 10 yards is just plain stupid.

GPalmer
07-28-2010, 01:47
Without commenting on the general usefulness of a 10 yard zero, I'll vote for the 50 yard zero. As others have said, the 50 yard might be a couple inches low at 10 yards but even if you can't remember to aim a couple inches low, 2" low on a head shot or COM ain't gonna bounce off 'em. I wouldn't over think this..

lawman800
07-28-2010, 01:58
It's the reason I consider Mini or M1 Carbine to be MORE accurate at indoor distances: low sight line makes POI very close to POA from point blank out to 25 yards. I don't think one inch here or there means much but if this kind of surgical precision at indoor ranges is important to you I'd consider switching platforms.

But but but... what if you had to take a headshot on a hostage taker inside your house and then he walks backwards outside and the range changes from 10 to 15 to 25 yards and back to 10 as you close in...:whistling:

Mike5560
07-28-2010, 03:26
Zero for versatility, train to it's limitations. 10 yards is, as Vafish said....useless. You're sacrificing a 2 inch difference from POA/POI, to get a zero thats dead on at 10 yards but useless at other distances.

50 yards is ideal IMO, and 25 works as well but I wouldn't go any shorter than 25.

triggerjerk
07-28-2010, 11:29
I believe that if you are running an Eotech that is zerored at 50yds, you can use the lower hash at the six o'clock position on the reticle for close distances.
That might be an option worth considering.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1536082

Myself, I have a laser zeroed at 10 yds if needed.

woncrzymof0
07-28-2010, 11:38
I personally sight in my 16" AR for 50 yards. Sighting it in for 10 yards is just plain stupid.

+1

I'm surprised this many people use an AR style rifle for home defense!?

The bullet that comes out can easily go through walls/family members? I think that's a little much. Pistols/shotguns are the way to go IMO.

NeverMore1701
07-28-2010, 12:16
+1

I'm surprised this many people use an AR style rifle for home defense!?

The bullet that comes out can easily go through walls/family members? I think that's a little much. Pistols/shotguns are the way to go IMO.

Actually you're going to have less overpenetration with a 5.56. The AR is really an ideal HD firearm.

Chuck TX
07-28-2010, 13:25
+1

I'm surprised this many people use an AR style rifle for home defense!?

The bullet that comes out can easily go through walls/family members? I think that's a little much. Pistols/shotguns are the way to go IMO.

Not the case. 00 Buck is more dangerous on the other side of the wall. While many loadings of 5.56 will likely fragment and exit the wall in fragments, the 00 Buck will keep on trucking with a plenty lethal dose worth of lead.

FatBoy
07-28-2010, 13:49
+1

I'm surprised this many people use an AR style rifle for home defense!?

The bullet that comes out can easily go through walls/family members? I think that's a little much. Pistols/shotguns are the way to go IMO.

I disagree, unless you are talking about running birdshot in the scatter gun. Buck and Slugs, and for that matter most JHPs through wall board, will keep on going, vs. a fragmenting .223/5.56.

FB

woncrzymof0
07-28-2010, 13:57
Interesting.. I thought for sure that the .223 would be way more dangerous than a pistol/shotgun. Obviously wouldn't be using buck/slugs, but definitely thought a rifle with that kind of power is not something to be used in the house.

smokin762
07-28-2010, 14:12
I have all my ARís sighted in at 100 yards. The next time I go to the range, I will have to try shooting at 5, 10, 15 and 20 feet to see if there is a noticeable difference.

If there is a big difference then maybe I will change the zero on my carbine. If not then I will leave it alone.:dunno:

Novocaine
07-28-2010, 14:17
But but but... what if you had to take a headshot on a hostage taker inside your house and then he walks backwards outside and the range changes from 10 to 15 to 25 yards and back to 10 as you close in...:whistling:

That's my point. Regardless of what distance the rifle is zeroed at, going from point blank to that distance with AR will change the point of impact by more than 2.5 inches. With Mini the change will be less than 1 inch (at short ranges).

Hence, Mini is more surgical indoors than AR.

Another note to the OP: to get 10 yard zero you would have to bring the front post down considerably, Iíd say about .06 from 25 yd zero. Probably possible but itís getting to the point where the post is becoming more of a ďstubĒ sunk within the protective ears: more difficult to pick up and you have more target obscured by the sight tower. Itís a bad idea on all fronts. 50 yd zero is your friend.

If the close range precision is important to you can add a laser as close to the boreline as possible.

Novocaine
07-28-2010, 14:29
I have all my ARís sighted in at 100 yards. The next time I go to the range, I will have to try shooting at 5, 10, 15 and 20 feet to see if there is a noticeable difference.

5, 10, 15 and 20 feet will be about the same I'd say between 2 and 2.5 inches below the point of aim.

Minnow
07-28-2010, 14:30
But but but... what if you had to take a headshot on a hostage taker inside your house and then he walks backwards outside and the range changes from 10 to 15 to 25 yards and back to 10 as you close in...:whistling:

Shoot the hostage! :cool:

smokin762
07-28-2010, 16:01
5, 10, 15 and 20 feet will be about the same I'd say between 2 and 2.5 inches below the point of aim.

Ya, that is what I thought but I figured if I did it, I could say for a fact there is very little difference.

I am guessing within confined spaces like a hallway in a house, your sights are not going to be that far off. As long as there are not any hostages, I would think point shooting in a close area would be effective as well but maybe not. I would need to try that one at the range to see it for myself.

Just for the heck of it, I wonder how much difference there would be with different bullet weights thrown into the mix as well.

If you are shooting within a close distance for pinpoint accuracy, would you want a heavier bullet or a lighter bullet?

I would think that there would be a certain bullet weight that might be a better choice and help compensate for sights that are zeroed in for farther distances when shooting in an up close situation. :dunno:

owl6roll
07-28-2010, 16:02
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=18&t=328143

smokin762
07-28-2010, 16:37
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=18&t=328143

I think I might give that a try. It couldn't hurt anything. :wavey:

Later, I'll be posting I broke the sights on my AR.

j/k.:rofl:

Novocaine
07-28-2010, 16:51
Just for the heck of it, I wonder how much difference there would be with different bullet weights thrown into the mix as well...
I would think that there would be a certain bullet weight that might be a better choice and help compensate for sights that are zeroed in for farther distances when shooting in an up close situation. :dunno:

Out to 25 yards it will make virtually no difference. As a purely academic point, if you zeroed with 55 gr at 100 yd, the heavier bullet will impact slightly lower at 25 yards. By slightly I mean the difference will be much less than the diameter of the bullet, probably less than the mechanical accuracy of the rifle. Rifle rounds don't drop all that much at mere 25 yards from the muzzle. Not to mention more practical indoor engagement distances, like < 10 yards.

Novocaine
07-28-2010, 16:56
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=18&t=328143

Yup. That's the setup I'm using. Very handy. I do have a sticker on the stock with +/- number of clicks from 3/8 to get to 100, 25, and to 50/200.

smokin762
07-28-2010, 17:05
Yup. That's the setup I'm using. Very handy. I do have a sticker on the stock with +/- number of clicks from 3/8 to get to 100, 25, and to 50/200.

I think I am on board with this as well. After reading that forum and seeing that other people were have good luck with it, convinced me to try it.

The sticker on the stock is a good idea also. I would hate to forget the new adjustments. :embarassed:

smokin762
07-28-2010, 17:26
Out to 25 yards it will make virtually no difference. As a purely academic point, if you zeroed with 55 gr at 100 yd, the heavier bullet will impact slightly lower at 25 yards. By slightly I mean the difference will be much less than the diameter of the bullet, probably less than the mechanical accuracy of the rifle. Rifle rounds don't drop all that much at mere 25 yards from the muzzle. Not to mention more practical indoor engagement distances, like < 10 yards.

Then would I be mistaken to believe that if I had my rifle zeroed in at 50 or 100 yards that I would still be okay within the confines of a home since it is just a short distance.

I would think I would be but know I seem to be second guessing myself.:faint:

ronin.45
07-28-2010, 19:23
Smokin762, if you are already sighted in at 100 yards you should leave it alone. That is the best all around zero distance for a relatively flat shooting rifle cartridge like the 223. If you have a 2.5" difference between bore and sight lines then you will be within 2.5" out to 200 yards or so and only about 8-9" low all the way to 300.

Novocaine
07-28-2010, 19:39
Then would I be mistaken to believe that if I had my rifle zeroed in at 50 or 100 yards that I would still be okay within the confines of a home since it is just a short distance.

Yes. No matter what zeroing you're using the Army, the Marines, IBS, RIBS, Bubba, Front Sight, 100 yards, etc you will be fine for up close targets. POI may differ from POA by 2.5 inches- no biggie.

bug
07-28-2010, 20:00
But but but... what if you had to take a headshot on a hostage taker inside your house and then he walks backwards outside and the range changes from 10 to 15 to 25 yards and back to 10 as you close in...:whistling:

Come on man thats easy you have to pull out your 10MM and fire in the opposite direction sending the round into orbit.
If done properly(few small calculations) it will come down like a ballistic missile and hit him in the back of the head.:supergrin:
2 small points when doing this after firing you must contact NORAD and the Russians so you don't start WW3.
And the moment before firing you must jump up a little(being in contact with the earth at the same time you fire THE 10MIL could stop the planets rotation.(or speed it up depending what direction you facing.
:whistling:

GPalmer
07-28-2010, 20:18
Interesting.. I thought for sure that the .223 would be way more dangerous than a pistol/shotgun. Obviously wouldn't be using buck/slugs, but definitely thought a rifle with that kind of power is not something to be used in the house.

Well, strangely it's a bit of both. If you look on the tests at box of truth you'll find an AR penetrates wallboard much better than buckshot. OTOH, after going through wallboard it will penetrate ballistic gel roughly the same as an AR. So if you have several walls to pass through and no one to hit inside the house and only care if it stops before it gets out in the world at large, use buck.

Gunnut 45/454
07-28-2010, 20:54
With my current load I'm dead nuts at 35 yards which puts it about 1" low at 10 yards ! So crosshairs between eyes at 10 equals center cranium! BY BY head! Top of breast bone equals top of thorax hit Dead guy!:rofl:

Alaskapopo
07-28-2010, 22:15
I was reading a magazine article by Ed Head ('The House Carbine,' Personal & Home Defense, Gun Buyer's Annual Presents #92, 2011, page 38) in which he stated he zeroed his house carbine at 10 yards -- "the average open distance in the typical home." This was done to avoid offset issues, and allow him to hit targets right where he places the red dot.

My questions: Does anyone have any opposing opinions about this approach for an AR that is being used only as a home defense weapon? Is there a reason that a "non-trigger-pulling non-operator" who wants to use an AR-15 as a home defense weapon would need to follow the popular advice which advocates a much longer zero distance? What negative consequences would one encounter by choosing this 10 yard zero approach (for a home defense use carbine)?


I think a 10 yard zero is a bad idea no matter what the intended mission is. The problem is the gun will only be on at 10 yards youwill still have off set inside of 10 yards. The other problem is if you need the gun past 10 yards you will be radically high to the point of missing the entire target. A 50 yard/ 200 yard zero that puts you no more or less than 2.5 inches high or low of your point of aim all the way from 0 to 250 yards is ideal.
Pat

lawman800
07-28-2010, 23:18
That's my point. Regardless of what distance the rifle is zeroed at, going from point blank to that distance with AR will change the point of impact by more than 2.5 inches. With Mini the change will be less than 1 inch (at short ranges).

Hence, Mini is more surgical indoors than AR.

Another note to the OP: to get 10 yard zero you would have to bring the front post down considerably, Iíd say about .06 from 25 yd zero. Probably possible but itís getting to the point where the post is becoming more of a ďstubĒ sunk within the protective ears: more difficult to pick up and you have more target obscured by the sight tower. Itís a bad idea on all fronts. 50 yd zero is your friend.

If the close range precision is important to you can add a laser as close to the boreline as possible.

Got the laser. Dialed in at 15 yards.

Shoot the hostage! :cool:

The last hostage didn't like that idea too much. She's still not talking to me.:whistling:

Come on man thats easy you have to pull out your 10MM and fire in the opposite direction sending the round into orbit.
If done properly(few small calculations) it will come down like a ballistic missile and hit him in the back of the head.:supergrin:
2 small points when doing this after firing you must contact NORAD and the Russians so you don't start WW3.
And the moment before firing you must jump up a little(being in contact with the earth at the same time you fire THE 10MIL could stop the planets rotation.(or speed it up depending what direction you facing.
:whistling:

I would do that but the shockwave from the launch would level my house immediately and then EPA would declare it a superfund site from all the radioactivity. I would win the fight but be glowing in the dark from the fallout. Too much collateral damage.

Novocaine
07-29-2010, 01:53
Come on man thats easy you have to pull out your 10MM and fire in the opposite direction sending the round into orbit.
If done properly(few small calculations) it will come down like a ballistic missile and hit him in the back of the head.:supergrin:

We're talking about deviation of POI from POA. As 10mm bends time/space the line of sight in all the likelihood will not coincide with the trajectory of the bullet as it hits the target.

rich636
07-29-2010, 05:42
Sighting the AR in at 10yards would be buying a new 20' Ranger bass boat and launching it in your backyard pool. That distance seems best suited to a handgun or shotgun. That being said some people may have their reasons and more power to them.

lawman800
07-29-2010, 07:55
We're talking about deviation of POI from POA. As 10mm bends time/space the line of sight in all the likelihood will not coincide with the trajectory of the bullet as it hits the target.

If you launch at the right angle of departure, it will actually curve around the earth instead of going into outer space and possibly destroying the moon. However, as it curves around the earth, it might make time go backwards as it affects the spin of the earth.

The 10mm bullet might actually come back approximately 65 million years in the past and cause cataclysmic destruction on a planet-wide scale and wipe out all life... oh wait....

JASV.17
07-29-2010, 08:22
Well, strangely it's a bit of both. If you look on the tests at box of truth you'll find an AR penetrates wallboard much better than buckshot. OTOH, after going through wallboard it will penetrate ballistic gel roughly the same as an AR. So if you have several walls to pass through and no one to hit inside the house and only care if it stops before it gets out in the world at large, use buck.


Also, keep in mind that with buckshot, you have multiple projectiles to be responsible for. With .223, only one. Of course it's a relative to your home/use etc.

Spiffums
07-29-2010, 18:50
Zero?? You all using 5 round mags or something? Just hose the 30 round mags you will eventually hit something.



I kid I kid

Warhorse
08-01-2010, 04:36
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=18&t=328143

This has also worked very well for me.

PATRICE
08-01-2010, 07:32
.....

Lawnboy
08-03-2010, 19:35
You guys are alot better than me. If somebody is 10yds from me in my house I don't think I'll be looking down the sights of my AR....I might even look like the Rifleman!!

njl
08-07-2010, 11:54
I assume if I have my AR's already setup as per the IBZ, to do the RIBZ, I'm going to have to mess around with the front sight and zero'ing again after modifying the rear sight setup again? I like the idea of the RIBZ...just not looking forward to zeroing my ARs again.