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PhoenixCCW
07-28-2010, 09:42
First off, I've been a loyal and raving fan of Kahr since I got my PM9 in 2005, so this isn't a flame thread or anything like that. I'm just expressing my frustration with the sudden demise of the formerly reliable gun after 5 years and several thousand rounds and, even more so, Kahr's seeming lack of care with fixing the problem (granted Ian is no longer there - he was the helpful one).

In any case it started recently when I suddenly couldn't lock the slide back. After trying a few of their suggestions, including clipping a turn or two off the recoil spring (which to me is totally unacceptable in a carry piece), they agreed to take the gun back for service. It came back with, you guessed it, the end of the recoil spring clipped! They also replaced the slide lock and magazine catch.

Tried to lock it back - VERY stiff - but I could do it so fine. Off to the range, 100 rounds with zero failures. Back again a week later and another 100 rounds with zero failures. Nice! I was ready to put it back into my carry rotation, until......

I broke the gun down for cleaning and lots of black plastic shavings fell out. Sure enough the right-side polymer frame rail, directly above the trigger, was chewed up and thinned out to half the original thickness. Not only unreliable for carry, but unsafe for shooting if you ask me.

I contacted Kahr again. Their reply? "This is normal!" WHAT??? Sorry guys but break-in happened many thousands of rounds ago!

At this point I'm very disappointed with Kahr and afraid that I have an expensive paperweight on my hands. In any case I rarely carry it anymore anyway because I can conceal my G27 almost as easily, but still, I want something to carry when I'm shooting the 27 at the range, or in very light summer clothing when pocket carry is in order. As much as I've loved the PM9 and as much as it's the perfect ultra-compact carry piece, I'm not about to go off and buy another of their overpriced guns after I feel like they screwed me on this one.

Anyone else have similar experiences or any suggestions?

artificialgrey
07-28-2010, 11:11
I've had a rather disappointing customer experience with Kahr regarding a PM9 that required shipping it to them. Long story short, they replaced my recoil assembly, but messed up my magazine catch in the process. When I received it back and seeing what they did to it, I called them back and this time I got Ian on the phone. After briefly explaining my reluctance to ship it to them once more, he sent me a replacement mag catch.

Is Ian really no longer working there? I think that dude was the last hope they had of retaining me as a customer.

PhoenixCCW
07-28-2010, 15:50
Is Ian really no longer working there? I think that dude was the last hope they had of retaining me as a customer.

Unfortunately he's gone. He was extremely helpful. Around the time I returned the gun is when he left and his replacement seems like he can't be bothered. I won't be buying any more Kahrs after this experience, especially considering the ridiculous prices on their guns.

Now my dilemma is finding a PM9 replacement. No other 9's come close in size. I won't buy a Kel-Tec due to quality issues. I won't trust my life with a .380. :crying:

mrsurfboard
07-28-2010, 16:13
Unfortunately he's gone. He was extremely helpful. Around the time I returned the gun is when he left and his replacement seems like he can't be bothered. I won't be buying any more Kahrs after this experience, especially considering the ridiculous prices on their guns.

Now my dilemma is finding a PM9 replacement. No other 9's come close in size. I won't buy a Kel-Tec due to quality issues. I won't trust my life with a .380. :crying:

But yet you did with a Kahr.

PhoenixCCW
07-28-2010, 17:01
But yet you did with a Kahr.

Yeah because in 5 years and thousands of rounds I never had a failure except for two during break-in (first 50 rounds for me). It was 100% until they went off and changed the recoil spring design, and they no longer manufacture the old one because they presumably want to screw everyone into buying a new gun.

No thanks, Kahr.

itstime
07-28-2010, 17:12
I have three of their pistols and honestly for what they go for I wish I never purchased them. I've never used their CS mostly because I don't want to therefore never shoot the Kahrs. I know, what a waste. But for what they go for, they should stand behind their stuff 200% and don't. Geeze, Hipoint and Keltec do at a small percentage of the cost of a Kahr.

briang2ad
07-28-2010, 19:22
Sounds like poor CS on this one.

I would start taking it up the chain as FAR as I could go. Sometimes that is what it takes. And if the boss doesn't know this stuff is going on, he won't fix it.

PhoenixCCW
07-28-2010, 22:38
Sounds like poor CS on this one.

I would start taking it up the chain as FAR as I could go. Sometimes that is what it takes. And if the boss doesn't know this stuff is going on, he won't fix it.

That is absolutely my plan. I'm not going to get stuck with a paperweight.

Cowart
07-28-2010, 23:54
Now my dilemma is finding a PM9 replacement. No other 9's come close in size.

Thats incorrect. The Rohrbaugh is fractionally smaller and lighter than the PM9 and has a good quality reputation - see http://www.rohrbaughfirearms.com/node/9

PhoenixCCW
07-29-2010, 21:22
Thats incorrect. The Rohrbaugh is fractionally smaller and lighter than the PM9 and has a good quality reputation - see http://www.rohrbaughfirearms.com/node/9

Yes I've come across that one in doing my research, sounds awesome! The price is VERY steep but we're already halfway through summer and I've dressed around the Glock 27 ... I suppose I have between now and next summer to save up my pennies for that one :supergrin:

at_liberty
07-30-2010, 12:59
I have been trying to work through similar issues with an older PM40. Kahr seems to have a batch of springs that aren't right. They handle them like a part number on a computer screen but the actual springs don't fit. Somebody there needs to stop making assumptions and check their stock.

They also do not supply the right parts, when you have the older recoil spring assembly with the smaller sized button end. I have a $100 worth of stuff I can't use and would only be told I waited too long to return it. I will just include it all when the gun goes back. The gun is currently working okay with the right ammo, but I cannot replace recoil springs. They don't have any that will work.

BTW, in spite of the problems with the PM40, I like my P40 and T40 a lot and shoot very well with them. The PM40 is just a fanny pack gun for driving. I bought it used and obviously paid too much for it. The P40 was a steal by a couple hundred dollars, so the average isn't too bad.

PhoenixCCW
08-02-2010, 11:44
They also do not supply the right parts, when you have the older recoil spring assembly with the smaller sized button end. I have a $100 worth of stuff I can't use and would only be told I waited too long to return it. I will just include it all when the gun goes back. The gun is currently working okay with the right ammo, but I cannot replace recoil springs. They don't have any that will work.

What they're doing now is offering a $175 "retrofit" to allow the new recoil springs to be used in the older guns we own. Ridiculous if you ask me. They're acting like Microsoft now - forcing you to buy an upgrade or what you have won't work anymore.

As for me, I did an experiment: I tried on lots of different light summer clothes with my Glock 27 and found that it disappears just as readily as the PM9 did. So I'm abandoning my search for another micro gun and sticking with the G27.

MinervaDoe
08-02-2010, 13:58
It's a shame that the polymer Kahrs seem to have problems. My MK9 has been a flawless tackdriver. That said, I prefer my G26. :cool:

b1012sharp
08-02-2010, 16:52
Unfortunately he's gone. He was extremely helpful. Around the time I returned the gun is when he left and his replacement seems like he can't be bothered. I won't be buying any more Kahrs after this experience, especially considering the ridiculous prices on their guns.

Now my dilemma is finding a PM9 replacement. No other 9's come close in size. I won't buy a Kel-Tec due to quality issues. I won't trust my life with a .380. :crying:


A G26 is very concealable and reliable...I'm just sayin'

JackC53
08-02-2010, 17:13
If the Glock 26 is "too big" for you, have you considered revolvers? When it's really hot out or when I just need to grab something quick to run to the store, my S&W 340PD is ultra light, very concealable and .357 magnum rounds WORK. With a CT laser it's great. If the price bothers you, their 442 is just a little heavier, .38 +P is fine, and it's half the price. Just an idea...

briang2ad
08-09-2010, 08:54
What they're doing now is offering a $175 "retrofit" to allow the new recoil springs to be used in the older guns we own. Ridiculous if you ask me. They're acting like Microsoft now - forcing you to buy an upgrade or what you have won't work anymore.



This sounds VERY disappointing. I would still try going up the chain, plaguing them with calls, very respectfully, but getting to a VP and getting a NEW gun. It does NOT need a retrofit, if its falling apart - it needs to be replaced.

revel8
08-10-2010, 23:10
agh :/

alank2
08-11-2010, 20:51
Hi,

I recently picked up a PM9 and it did great on the first range session, but the second range session resulted in the slide locking back before the mag was empty. I fiddled around with the slide lock spring a bit, but in the end the issue was that a cartridge in the magazine was getting pushed forward and pushed forward it would contact the slide lock lever. I filed down a bit of the lever and it is working great now.

What explanation did they give for the plastic rails getting eaten up? Is it out of warranty or still in warranty? You would think they would have to fix it if it is still in warranty...

I love Glock because they take care of customers, but a G26 is considerably bigger than the PM9. I pocket carried my PM9 today for the first time and it was great.

Good luck,

Alan

RVER
08-28-2010, 18:29
My PM9 sold for $650.00 new. I've had (2) malfunctions during the first 10 or so rounds and has functioned perfectly since. Accuracy is great.

Would I do it again? Not sure. Stories such as this one make me really happy that I kept my Glock 23. I amy have purchased a Kel-Tec P11 instead and saved a bunch of money. I've had a P32 for years without any problems.

the perfesser
08-29-2010, 11:14
My PM9 sold for $650.00 new. I've had (2) malfunctions during the first 10 or so rounds and has functioned perfectly since. Accuracy is great.

Would I do it again? Not sure. Stories such as this one make me really happy that I kept my Glock 23.......

I am with RVER on this. My PM9 has been great since I bought it. No failures to fire or to feed since the first 100 rounds and a few failures of the slide going fully forward into battery. Very good accuracy too, and I like the trigger. I have reconciled myself to the necessity of loading always from slidelock.

From what I understand, I am one of the many lucky ones who are similarly quite satisfied with their PM9s. But what I read about too many folks' problems with the pistol and with CS has me wary. So while I will keep the PM9 as the alternative pocket-carry to my snubbie, I have no great desire at the moment to expand my Kahr holdings......

alank2
08-29-2010, 13:18
Hi,

I debated, for years, on getting a PM9 because of all the Internet reviews that I read. Finally, I decided to take a plunge because I found a great price at www.gtdist.com on a PM9. I figured if I get a bad one, I would send it to CS and demand a new one if they couldn't get it right. Like I said in my above post, I had to file down the inside of the slide stop lever, but since I did that it is running perfectly.

Now that I'm carrying it I have to say I love carrying it much more than the J-Frame I was carrying. It is flatter and fits int he pocket better. I think it might be a couple ounces heavier, but I haven't noticed at all. I carry a 7 round spare mag as well for a total of 14 rounds of 9mm. I love this carry setup, I've been using a Desantis Nemesis pocket holster.

For me, it was very worth the risk of hoping to get a good one.

Thanks,

Alan

tpr7304
08-29-2010, 19:43
Now my dilemma is finding a PM9 replacement. No other 9's come close in size. I won't buy a Kel-Tec due to quality issues. I won't trust my life with a .380. :crying:

I bought a PM9 about a year ago and really liked the size of the pistol. I could not get it to run properly and eventually sold it. I ended up with a G26 which has been 100% reliable. I know its not as thin as the PM9 but it works every time.

ontarget406
08-30-2010, 08:06
First off, I've been a loyal and raving fan of Kahr since I got my PM9 in 2005, so this isn't a flame thread or anything like that. I'm just expressing my frustration with the sudden demise of the formerly reliable gun after 5 years and several thousand rounds and, even more so, Kahr's seeming lack of care with fixing the problem (granted Ian is no longer there - he was the helpful one).

In any case it started recently when I suddenly couldn't lock the slide back. After trying a few of their suggestions, including clipping a turn or two off the recoil spring (which to me is totally unacceptable in a carry piece), they agreed to take the gun back for service. It came back with, you guessed it, the end of the recoil spring clipped! They also replaced the slide lock and magazine catch.

Tried to lock it back - VERY stiff - but I could do it so fine. Off to the range, 100 rounds with zero failures. Back again a week later and another 100 rounds with zero failures. Nice! I was ready to put it back into my carry rotation, until......

I broke the gun down for cleaning and lots of black plastic shavings fell out. Sure enough the right-side polymer frame rail, directly above the trigger, was chewed up and thinned out to half the original thickness. Not only unreliable for carry, but unsafe for shooting if you ask me.

I contacted Kahr again. Their reply? "This is normal!" WHAT??? Sorry guys but break-in happened many thousands of rounds ago!

At this point I'm very disappointed with Kahr and afraid that I have an expensive paperweight on my hands. In any case I rarely carry it anymore anyway because I can conceal my G27 almost as easily, but still, I want something to carry when I'm shooting the 27 at the range, or in very light summer clothing when pocket carry is in order. As much as I've loved the PM9 and as much as it's the perfect ultra-compact carry piece, I'm not about to go off and buy another of their overpriced guns after I feel like they screwed me on this one.

Anyone else have similar experiences or any suggestions?




Wow! I have been a member of GT for a while but do not post many threads. I saw this one and needed to say something. Let me see if I got this right.... You have had the gun for 5 years and it performed flawlessly. Now you are perceiving a problem and the gun is a paperweight? He who has little faith....! ;-)

Maybe I can help. I am no expert but have carried a PM9 for quite a while.

First, lets discuss the recoil spring. You said you could not lock the slide back. I am guessing this just didn't start happening on its own. That wouldn't make any sense at all. I bet you ordered, or were sent, a new recoil spring. You installed it and it didn't lock back.

Then the Kahr folks mentioned clipping the spring.

The reason you were told to try clipping a coil, is due to the spring you received being for the newer version PM9 which has a longer (more coils) spring. You mentioned your gun is 5 years old. You would need to clip a coil or so off the spring. to make it work. Nothing unusual so far, pretty standard practice.

You send the gun back in and they (Kahr) clipped the spring for you. Sounds like they also updated your slide lock and mag catch as well. Did they charge you for that? I am sure they didn't. Probably did it for free on your out of warranty gun.

Gun comes back and runs fine. No issues.....

You take it apart and find shavings from the right side guide and notice it is thinner. Let me try to explain this. I had the same concern a while back. Kahr set me straight. First, that portion of the frame is a guide. It is on the gun to assist the owner to "guide"" the slide back on the frame. The guide could be totally off the frame and the gun would still function fine. The slide is held on by metal "rails" molded into the lower portion of the frame

Back to the frame guides. The right hand forward portion of the guide is machined ( by Kahr) a bit thinner for ease of inserting the slide. You will also note that the there is an edge on the slide as you insert it on the frame, that will dig in to the guide leaving shavings. Unless that slide is put on exactly straqight, that sharp corner on the slide will dig it up a bit. Again, no big deal and it does not hurt the gun's functionality or reliability at all.

I got this info from dealing with Kahr CS over the years. They have been very helpful in educating me on their pistol.

Hopefully this helps restore your faith in what I believe to be, a pretty darned good gun for CCW.

Just my 2 cents!

:supergrin:

rjbFL
09-01-2010, 12:27
Question if I may?

I have an old frame and have just installed a new style recoil-assembly.

It locks open - so spring compresses correctly why cut off a link?

Thanks.

ontarget406
09-01-2010, 14:58
Question if I may?

I have an old frame and have just installed a new style recoil-assembly.

It locks open - so spring compresses correctly why cut off a link?

Thanks.

My understanding of the newer PM9 springs are they have a coil or two longer then the older style gun. It really depends on how old your gun is. Sounds like your gun, although older, may not be old enough to see the impact of the new spring.

Hope this helps!

rjbFL
09-01-2010, 18:07
Thanks for the reply.

I plan a trip to the range in this coming week and will see how it performs.

carguy2244
09-17-2010, 22:32
I have a PM9. It's had about 2000 rounds through it...all flawless.
Had a P9 before, failed to operate after 200 rounds. Sent to Kahr. They repaired it and sent 2 mags a holster, and mag carrier for my trouble, and paid the freight both ways.

Seahawk60
09-18-2010, 02:11
Wow, I'm glad I got a great PM9. Almost 5000 rounds through it and Kahr sent me two new, updated spring/recoil assemblies for free when I heard about an "updated" design...and I "needed" a new one anyway... Wasn't having any problems, but I just wanted a spare.

I could NOT lock the slide back by hand with the new assemblies at first, but it fired just fine and locked back EVERY time after the last round. About 100-150 rounds later and leaving it locked back after the "last round" for about a week solved that problem just fine as the inner and outer recoil springs set in nicely. At first, I thought they sent me the wrong guide rod/springs, so they sent me another set. Same thing, but it WAS the correct one. It broke it the same as the first new assembly. A 100 round value pack (give or take) and some time in the safe "locked back" and everything was just fine. I can lock it back by hand with the slide lock or rack the slide on an empty mag.

The new guide rods had the larger rear "button" that goes up against the front of the barrel lug and the springs felt much stronger. I'll bet this is to help the "Kahr problem" of chambering the first round by trying to slingshot the slide. I can slingshot the first round of a loaded mag all day long and not have to rely on dropping the slide with the release. The other difference I noticed is the outer spring will not come off the guide rod without some effort. The old one would slide right off. This is important because you MUST be sure to have that outer spring oriented with the "open end" towards the front of the slide. With the new design, it's a lot easier to tell which end is correct. The smaller/tighter "closed" end is the one that goes on the guide rod first and it won't fall off on its own where someone might not notice and put it on backwards.

This one below has been a GREAT circa 2004 manufacture PM9 in the VA9XXXX range. Here it is after getting some new pocket carry skins a few years ago.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b103/AlbertD/DSC01804.jpg

surgdog
09-26-2010, 18:21
I have had a PM9 for several years and it has worked ok but today after not firing it for some time I took it out and changed to FMJ ammo to practice and found that I could not load a round into the chamber.

The slide would not go back far enough. I took it apart and noticed when putting it back together that the end of the spring at the muzzle end is showing and the rod is skewed to one side. I don't know if this is the problem but I am baffled by not being able to chamber a round. The plunger is seated correctly in the cut out on the barrel. I have never had this problem.

I don't want to bash Kahr but this the most expensive pistol I have and I have the least confidence in it.

I replaced it with my Glock 27. I know it will work.

I will take it to a gunsmith and see if he can fix it.

Not trying to hijack your thread just agreeing with you.

I feel the same way you do about this PM9.

Seahawk60
09-26-2010, 20:33
Surdog, you need to get on the horn/email pronto with Kahr. They just sent me two new guide rod/spring assemblies for free...just for the asking. I'd heard they had a redesign and I was about due for a replacement with almost 2000 rounds on my PM9. I wasn't having problems...just wanted a replacement/spare. The new springs are considerably stronger. So much so that I could NOT get the slide to manually lock back. Locked back every time when firing, though, with zero malfunctions. The springs just needed to take a set. I left it locked back after firing and threw it in the safe for about a week (plus a few boxes of ammo) and I can now lock it back by hand just fine. I think they changed to stronger springs for more positive chambering. I can slingshot the first round from a fully loaded magazine every time, which many claim they cannot do. Kahr does say to drop the slide with the slide release to chamber the first round, though, and so many people just cannot seem to read their manuals.

Anyway, because of the inability to lock it back, I thought Kahr might have sent me a PM40 assembly by mistake, so I asked for another one. The "replacement" (also free) was exactly the same and needed the same spring break in. All has been well since and I got fantastic customer service. The part arrived in the mail a few days later both times and I didn't have to call. Just email. :thumbsup:

ghostwn
09-26-2010, 21:45
After reading these posts, glad I have a G26. I use to have a Colt .45ACP, with issues. One day I woke up and bought a Glock and never looked backed. Too bad we don't wake up until later.:patriot:

surgdog
09-27-2010, 05:08
Thank you Seahawk 60.

I will take your advice and email them prior to taking to a gunsmith.

Seahawk60
09-28-2010, 00:02
After reading these posts, glad I have a G26. I use to have a Colt .45ACP, with issues. One day I woke up and bought a Glock and never looked backed. Too bad we don't wake up until later.:patriot:

Well, goody for you. How about staying out of a Kahr thread unless you have ANYTHING useful to offer? :upeyes:

Seahawk60
09-28-2010, 00:05
Thank you Seahawk 60.

I will take your advice and email them prior to taking to a gunsmith.

No problem. Glad to help. Even if they won't send you a free one, the guide rod is only like $15 straight from Kahr (last time I checked), so it's not the end of the world and you'll need a spare/replacement anyway because the inner spring isn't really user replaceable.

Again, be sure to stress that "you HEARD about a new redesign of the PM9 guide rod/spring assembly" and would like a replacement. Worked like a charm for me the first time. And the "are you sure you didn't send me a PM40 part by mistake?" worked fine the second time, although it wasn't intentional to get a second free part. :rofl:

surgdog
10-06-2010, 19:51
Ok, Seahawk I did as you suggested.

Jay at Kahr is sending me a new spring. I will let you know.

Thanks for the advice.

the perfesser
10-06-2010, 21:06
After reading these posts, glad I have a G26. I use to have a Colt .45ACP, with issues. One day I woke up and bought a Glock and never looked backed. Too bad we don't wake up until later.:patriot:

Thanks for you post. It reminds me of what I said in post #20 above. If I did not already own a well-working PM9, the frequency of PM9 problems noted on this and other threads would have given me pause as well and might have steered me toward a G26 instead. In any event, as previously noted, I am now cool to the prospect of a second Kahr, preferring to put my energies (and perhaps money?) toward making my PM9 continue to function at its best.

I wish that we end-users could devise some way of quantifying the PM9 reliability situation. We hear the horror stories, which prompt positive testimonials (e.g., my post #20 above) and good suggestions for rectifying a specific problem. This is great so long as the problem is not systemic or results from a design flaw -- both things that we don't seem to know.

MinervaDoe
10-07-2010, 10:58
Thanks for you post. It reminds me of what I said in post #20 above. If I did not already own a well-working PM9, the frequency of PM9 problems noted on this and other threads would have given me pause as well and might have steered me toward a G26 instead. In any event, as previously noted, I am now cool to the prospect of a second Kahr, preferring to put my energies (and perhaps money?) toward making my PM9 continue to function at its best.

I wish that we end-users could devise some way of quantifying the PM9 reliability situation. We hear the horror stories, which prompt positive testimonials (e.g., my post #20 above) and good suggestions for rectifying a specific problem. This is great so long as the problem is not systemic or results from a design flaw -- both things that we don't seem to know.
Even thouh we are unable to put numbers on the problems with the polymer Kahrs, it seems like you don't hear about many problems with the metal Kahrs. My MK9 has been flawess.

the perfesser
10-07-2010, 19:13
Even thouh we are unable to put numbers on the problems with the polymer Kahrs, it seems like you don't hear about many problems with the metal Kahrs. My MK9 has been flawess.

You are right on that -- one hears far fewer complaints re the metal ones. Can any poster with some engineering/manufacturing expertise suggest why this might be so? Do problems with the polymer Kahrs stem from size (smaller ones have more issues) or from plastic frame or from something else?

erh
10-14-2010, 20:43
I just spoke w/ him in Tech Support today for about 20mins.
Is he Aussie or S. African? In any case, quite a nice, knowledgeable
& helpful guy..

E! :cool:

rargos
10-28-2010, 20:12
It's a shame that the polymer Kahrs seem to have problems. My MK9 has been a flawless tackdriver. That said, I prefer my G26. :cool:

+1 on the MK9 : an excellent firearm. Every now and then I play with the idea of getting a PM9 (lighter - the MK9 is all steel and feels like it), but then I read threads like these ....

Cowart
10-29-2010, 07:50
Do problems with the polymer Kahrs stem from size (smaller ones have more issues) or from plastic frame or from something else?

They probably sell a lot more polymer models than the steel frame models. And, probably a lot more CW models than anything else.