Fatal Flaw of the 1911 [Archive] - Glock Talk

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The_Drizzle
07-29-2010, 03:50
Did you know that 1911s have a fatal flaw?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-WhOCoQfjw




Who shoots like that?

Foxtrotx1
07-29-2010, 03:59
I have no idea, curious to try it though. But remember.....DuE To The Desiiign FLaw.

11bdad
07-29-2010, 05:46
Standing in front of one?

CA_DUDE
07-29-2010, 05:47
I think there is more danger from shooting any gun that way then of the slide stop coming out. Your middle finger is the strongest. I would think if you tightened your grip out of instinct you would inadvertently fire. Not to mention you would have much less control over the gun retention wise.

bac1023
07-29-2010, 07:20
What a joke. :upeyes:

BlayGlock
07-29-2010, 07:28
That was pretty stupid.

BuckyP
07-29-2010, 07:44
LOL, it's fun trying to speculate what this is all about (currently can't access youtube).

Anyway, tag for later viewing.

98_1LE
07-29-2010, 07:51
Never found shooting that way to be remotely comfortable or accurate.

As much as I love them, I would say the design has two flaws.
1. At close quarters, it is possible for the bad person to push on the muzzle of the pistol, forcing the slide back, making it impossible to fire.
2. Feeding reliablity.

/ducks

bowtie454
07-29-2010, 08:07
I'd like to see a draw from concealment using only a thumb and two fingers, not to mention handling the recoil.

1-2man
07-29-2010, 08:09
:shocked: I've been shooting incorrectly for the past 23 years!!! :faint:

(Probably a good thing from I can gather from this video. :supergrin:)

GunFighter45ACP
07-29-2010, 08:16
Gee, for once it seems to pay off being a Southpaw

triggerjerk
07-29-2010, 08:26
Hmm.
Well don't high end 1911s usually have the slide stop pin ground flush/recessed?
http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu269/ddindetroit/SpringfieldProfessional.jpg

okie
07-29-2010, 08:26
Whatever:upeyes:

woncrzymof0
07-29-2010, 08:29
who shoots like that!? :shocked:

bac1023
07-29-2010, 09:11
Hmm.
Well don't high end 1911s usually have the slide stop pin ground flush/recessed?
http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu269/ddindetroit/SpringfieldProfessional.jpg

Actually, not too often.

A few of them do and some full custom smiths will do it if asked.





.

bac1023
07-29-2010, 09:12
who shoots like that!? :shocked:

:dunno:

Trey83
07-29-2010, 09:14
OP, Thanks for posting this. I needed a :rofl:

The_Drizzle
07-29-2010, 09:23
Here is a link to a write up about Aimed Point Shooting i found.

http://www.pointshooting.com/pands.htm

I honestly never knew this was an actual technique. Once, back in my college days when I was taking a friend shooting for the first time, he held my Glock 19 like this. I said, "What the hell is that?". His responce was, "What? Isn't this how you are supposed to do it? This is how I have always seen it done."

I don't know where he had "seen it done", but like I said it was his first time. Once I showed him how to hold it like a man he said, "O, that does feel better." He had a good time.

Glockdude1
07-29-2010, 09:23
What a joke. :upeyes:

:agree:

lawdog734
07-29-2010, 09:24
Wow,if only I had know. Now i am going to have to sell off my 1911s:upeyes:

38 Super Fan
07-29-2010, 10:08
He actually just implied that the 1911 should be designed more like the Tokarev!

glock2740
07-29-2010, 10:23
Well, that does it for me. I'm selling all of mine off. I better call and cancel the No Name and the CQB. From here on out I'm going quality all the way. It's Hi-Point's for me, all the way. :thumbsup:



























































:tongueout: :rofl::rofl::rofl:

CA_DUDE
07-29-2010, 10:33
The fatal flaw that has never happened

ajgranda
07-29-2010, 10:43
who shoots like that!? :shocked:

Someone who has no clue! :whistling:

bac1023
07-29-2010, 11:23
He actually just implied that the 1911 should be designed more like the Tokerev!

Yeah, especially the safety. :whistling:








:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Jim Watson
07-29-2010, 11:26
Ah, yes, I well recall the old Internet Debates with one Smoke 'em Joe who advocated the technique.

Ol'Slabsides
07-29-2010, 14:33
I've seen several guys over the years advocate for point shooting (aka instinctive shooting). The premise being that you can naturally point at an object with relative accuracy with the index finger, so you leave that finger pointed at the target and let your middle finger work the trigger. I was actually close to taking an instinctive shooting class once in AZ from a guy who puts them on all the time, but never could work out the schedule.

As I recall, he wasn't crazy about the 1911, saying that his students shoot ~1000 rounds over a 2 or 3 day course, and that the 1911 didn't tend to stand up to the rigors of that type shooting as well as Glocks or Sigs. When I asked why so many rounds, he told me that we're imprinting the point shooting technique on the student, and it initially takes that amount to completely become 2nd nature. He claimed that once I mastered the technique, I could simultaneously run and shoot pie plate accuracy at 15-20 yards without much effort.

Not necessarily advocating for a technique with which I'm unfamiliar, just relaying information as I remember it. I believe, after reflection, I'm not gonna sell my flawed designs off just yet.

ERASER
07-29-2010, 14:58
The fatal flaw that has never happened

I like to see him back-up that "fatal flaw" statement. Can he document even 1 instance where this "flaw" resulted in the death of the shooter?
I KNOW there are a lot of people in cemeteries all around the globe who died over the last 99 years from the business end of the 1911. I'm not the least bit concerned that my 1911 will exhibit this "flaw".

CA_DUDE
07-29-2010, 15:19
I like to see him back-up that "fatal flaw" statement. Can he document even 1 instance where this "flaw" resulted in the death of the shooter?
I KNOW there are a lot of people in cemeteries all around the globe who died over the last 99 years from the business end of the 1911. I'm not the least bit concerned that my 1911 will exhibit this "flaw".

I'd imagine it's more likely that the slide release would break rather than coming out. And the likelihood of that is very, very small (inspect it when you strip it, the rest is in God's hands).

Also, how can it be a fatal flaw when it wouldn't ever happen if fired the way it was designed be?

jrs93accord
07-29-2010, 15:36
Yes Virginia, there are still idiots in this world.

RonS
07-29-2010, 15:56
Oh, God, I haven't seen anyone try that since before the internet. Just a reminder that there were stupid people before the digital age.

BuckyP
07-29-2010, 16:12
OMG, I want my 1:28 minutes of my life back. Seriously? Less grip on the gun = less control over recoil = less retention of the gun during a gun grab.

eddief4
07-29-2010, 19:55
wow....seriously?:upeyes:

dakrat
07-29-2010, 20:19
fatal flaw = sissy index finger

ctfireman
07-29-2010, 21:17
Retardation at its finest.

Cobra64
07-29-2010, 21:25
Never found shooting that way to be remotely comfortable or accurate.

As much as I love them, I would say the design has two flaws.
1. At close quarters, it is possible for the bad person to push on the muzzle of the pistol, forcing the slide back, making it impossible to fire.
2. Feeding reliablity.

/ducks

:upeyes:

1) Ummm... that's called a safety so that the gun cannot be fired out of battery.

2) Feeding reliability can be found in a variety of makes and models, not just the 1911 design. Furthermore feeding issues have been addressed over the years. Much like .40 Glocks blowing up has been addressed.


I seriously doubt you've had any experience with one, much less owned one.

Cobra64
07-29-2010, 21:29
What a joke. :upeyes:

So is post #8.

R*E
07-29-2010, 21:32
I'm a moron. I've been lining up a little notch to push that pin out, didn't realize it just comes out. :faint:

Cobra64
07-29-2010, 21:33
Wow,if only I had know. Now i am going to have to sell off my 1911s:upeyes:

Me too, and my Sigs.

I'm going to upgrade to a Lorcin. :rofl:.

Aiden
07-29-2010, 21:44
I'm a moron. I've been lining up a little notch to push that pin out, didn't realize it just comes out. :faint:
:rofl:

We've been doing it wrong all this time.

I'm gonna start shooting my gun like that, and put a bayonet on it.

Cobra64
07-29-2010, 21:53
I've considered taking a point shooting class, but certainly not from the clown in the video. It's apparent that he's never field stripped a 1911.

Downrange TV had some excerpts from a point shooting instructor, and the results were amazing. If I can find the link, I'll post it here or start a new thread.


"You don't know what you don't know."

CMG
07-30-2010, 04:00
Nothing is foolproof for a sufficiently talented fool! :faint:

BuckyP
07-30-2010, 05:19
:upeyes:

1) Ummm... that's called a safety so that the gun cannot be fired out of battery.


... and is not exclusive to the 1911, as this is true of most makes.

Hokie1911
07-30-2010, 06:43
Wow,if only I had know. Now i am going to have to sell off my 1911s:upeyes:

Since your NoName is now worthless, I'll take it off your hands for $50. You can thank me later.

Hokie1911
07-30-2010, 06:52
I don't see what the problem is. Once your slide flies off, just throw your JHPs at the bad guy. Unless you're like Quack, and can't achieve the necessary penetration depth. :dunno:

TippyRacer
07-30-2010, 07:33
I'm surprised no one has mentioned this:

"Adding comments has been disabled for this video. "

Even this guy knows the poopstorm that would happen if he enabled comments. Imagine all the folks calling him an idiot.

Hokie1911
07-30-2010, 07:47
I'm surprised no one has mentioned this:

"Adding comments has been disabled for this video. "

Even this guy knows the poopstorm that would happen if he enabled comments. Imagine all the folks calling him an idiot.

Yeah, I saw that. Was also wondering how the video rating was able to achieve 1 star. Not a YouTube junkie, so is that the lowest you can get?

samuse
07-30-2010, 08:28
I always thought I was supposed to put my trigger finger on the trigger.

The finger he used is supposed to be reserved for the grip. Or sign language:supergrin:

Hokie1911
07-30-2010, 08:35
I always thought I was supposed to put my trigger finger on the trigger.

The finger he used is supposed to be reserved for the grip. Or sign language:supergrin:

Nope. Proper usage of your index finger is to point which way your bullets are supposed to go. Unless you are using a poorly designed gun, such as the 1911, which clearly has been pointed out (no pun intended).

itstime
07-30-2010, 08:40
The 1911 was designed for southpaws. Wait the safety is on the wrong side.

Glocker08
07-30-2010, 08:48
Did you know that 1911s have a fatal flaw?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-WhOCoQfjw




Who shoots like that?

Why did dumbass have his bird finger on the trigger instead of his booger picker ? :headscratch:

Cobra64
07-30-2010, 08:55
The 1911 was designed for southpaws. Wait the safety is on the wrong side.

That's why I put mine on the right side. :supergrin:


http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/1911/Marks%20Valor/Right06.jpg



http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/1911/Marks%20Smith%20and%20Wesson/P1010355.jpg



http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/1911/Marks%20Performance%20Center/P1030857.jpg



Oops.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/1911/Colt%201911%20WWI%201918/RIGHT10.jpg



.

Cobra64
07-30-2010, 09:06
While we're talking about grip styles, two former Marines in our club used the "cup and saucer grip."

After they learned the proper form, they excused themselves as Marines being "riflemen." :)


http://www.armystudyguide.com/content/army_board_study_guide_topics/m9/grip-techniques-used-with.shtml

Palouse
07-30-2010, 10:59
1. At close quarters, it is possible for the bad person to push on the muzzle of the pistol, forcing the slide back, making it impossible to fire.


As others have said, this is not unique to the 1911 and is actually a safety feature. When semi-autos fire out of battery, bad things happen.

I have read that this is why the guide rod on an XD protrudes from the pistol by a bit, but I have no idea if this is true. The XDm doesn't seem to have this "feature". Again, that's internet hearsay, so take it for what it's worth.

My neighbor is a cop, and they're issued Glocks. One of their training drills is to grab the slide with the off hand, fire, and rack the slide to cycle in a fresh round. This is to obviously keep the pistol in battery when the muzzle is pushed up against whatever it is you're trying to shoot.

BuckyP
07-30-2010, 11:15
As others have said, this is not unique to the 1911 and is actually a safety feature. When semi-autos fire out of battery, bad things happen.

I have read that this is why the guide rod on an XD protrudes from the pistol by a bit, but I have no idea if this is true. The XDm doesn't seem to have this "feature". Again, that's internet hearsay, so take it for what it's worth.

My neighbor is a cop, and they're issued Glocks. One of their training drills is to grab the slide with the off hand, fire, and rack the slide to cycle in a fresh round. This is to obviously keep the pistol in battery when the muzzle is pushed up against whatever it is you're trying to shoot.

I know my XD .45 Compact was like that. If you pushed against a flat surface, the guide rod kept the slide from moving.

COLDSTEEL165
08-01-2010, 02:51
Don't you think that the great John Browning thought of this when he designed the 1911 gun ? :tongueout:

oldman101946
08-05-2010, 18:38
The narrator has a Russian accent. Wonder how much he was paid by the Russian gunmaker.

His way of shooting is flawed anyway. Best way to get a major cut to the index finger is to hold it along side the bottom of the side. I know a LEO that got shot when he sustained slide bite and paid more attention to that than the subject he was confronting. I will continue to shoot using my index finger as I have for the last 45 yrs.

Also the middle finger is the longest. A shooter using the middle finger on the trigger will have the shots pulling to the left since more of the finger will be on the trigger. The same holds true with the index finger. If you use the second joint of the finger, the shots will go more to the left. Only the finger tip should be on the trigger.

Cobra64
08-05-2010, 19:13
The narrator has a Russian accent. Wonder how much he was paid by the Russian gunmaker.

His way of shooting is flawed anyway. Best way to get a major cut to the index finger is to hold it along side the bottom of the side. I know a LEO that got shot when he sustained slide bite and paid more attention to that than the subject he was confronting. I will continue to shoot using my index finger as I have for the last 45 yrs.

Also the middle finger is the longest. A shooter using the middle finger on the trigger will have the shots pulling to the left since more of the finger will be on the trigger. The same holds true with the index finger. If you use the second joint of the finger, the shots will go more to the left. Only the finger tip should be on the trigger.

Massad Mayoob would disagree with your assumptions/statements.

Walkin' Boss
08-05-2010, 19:22
The 1911 does indeed have one flaw: it works best for those who actually know how to shoot and handle a firearm properly.

oldman101946
08-05-2010, 19:39
Massad Mayoob would disagree with your assumptions/statements.

Any statement will be disagreed by someone.

In court, one expert will say one thing and another will say something 180 degrees different. Because anyone makes a statement does not mean it is correct for another.

I am reminded of what one of my professors in college said about books. He said that any book is no better than that person's thoughts from education or past experiences and may not align with the next person.

If you read enough, you will find where experts will take both sides of an issue over time. I have testifed many times that a driver should never go to the left to avoid an accident but I have also testified in some cases that the driver's only option was to cross the centerline to the left.

People do what they were trained to do. I have the details on one officer getting killed as he picked up the fired brass during a firefight as he was taught to do at the academy. It was not the time to do such and certainly not proper at a crime scene.

Ruggles
08-05-2010, 19:57
"Any statement will be disagreed by someone."

You sir just summed up Glocktalk, no wait the internet forum world...you might want to copyright that before I do :)

As for the design flaw, Hell if it has worked for a century I can't really see a flaw.

oldman101946
08-06-2010, 05:05
"Any statement will be disagreed by someone."

You sir just summed up Glocktalk, no wait the internet forum world...you might want to copyright that before I do :)

As for the design flaw, Hell if it has worked for a century I can't really see a flaw.

As I see it, the 1911 has gone virtually unchanged since it's inception. The well known Glock has had major changes during it's 30 yr history. I think Glock is on Gen 4 at this time. For some reason each change has caused entire agencies to change their guns to the newer model.

Is a change done for cosmetic reasons or flaws? A cosmetic change should not cause a department to buy new guns. Police officers do not shoot enough to wear a gun out, well......they may wear out plastic guns. But a flaw will create a need for change.

Wonder why a 1911 is basically the same as it was originally and many have had thousands of rounds put through them.

BuckyP
08-06-2010, 07:05
As I see it, the 1911 has gone virtually unchanged since it's inception. The well known Glock has had major changes during it's 30 yr history.


Actually, the 1911 went through several changes before it was adopted and became the 1911. Also, many 1911s that people buy today are quite a bit changed from the standard 1911 design and these changes quite arguably make the guns perform better.

ROGER4314
08-06-2010, 07:08
That little clip is typical of the BS we are fed on a daily basis. Take a tiny bit of truth (yes, the pistol will jam if the slide stop is out of position) include some visuals, use a voice of authority and discuss something people could be afraid of and you have the possibility of a Journalism feeding frenzy! It's still just BS.

You guys need to get rid of those Colts and Kimbers for your own good. I'll give $100 apiece for them........it's for the safety of our children.

Flash

motorcopm4
08-12-2010, 03:40
Haha Ive never pushed mine out

iamhistory
08-15-2010, 11:36
that's what boring, pointless and biased. after the first 30 seconds i fast forwarded and then shut if off.

i want the last minute and a half of my life back.......

BilltheCat
08-15-2010, 13:29
The 1911 does indeed have one flaw: it works best for those who actually know how to shoot and handle a firearm properly.

Yup! The 1911 was made in the age before lawyers designed guns that didnt work but were politically correct.

The flaw however is not in the gun but in ourselves if we take a tool meant for killing and turn it into a fashion accessory.

Straight Pipe
08-15-2010, 17:25
Here is a link to a write up about Aimed Point Shooting i found.

http://www.pointshooting.com/pands.htm

I honestly never knew this was an actual technique. Once, back in my college days when I was taking a friend shooting for the first time, he held my Glock 19 like this. I said, "What the hell is that?". His responce was, "What? Isn't this how you are supposed to do it? This is how I have always seen it done."

I don't know where he had "seen it done", but like I said it was his first time. Once I showed him how to hold it like a man he said, "O, that does feel better." He had a good time.

The only time I've ever seen anyone shoot like that is when they were missing their index finger.

lawdog734
08-15-2010, 19:28
He is right the 1911 does have a fatal flaw, as which it is my civic duty to start a collection of all 1911 where they will be properly care of.... hhhuuuu I mean disposed of......

New York Hunter
08-16-2010, 01:17
Never found shooting that way to be remotely comfortable or accurate.

As much as I love them, I would say the design has two flaws.
1. At close quarters, it is possible for the bad person to push on the muzzle of the pistol, forcing the slide back, making it impossible to fire.
That's true for a lot of semi auto pistols, Glocks included.


2. Feeding reliablity.

/ducks
I've had my SW1911 for about 3 years now. Between my wife, my son (he'll be 9 next week) and I, we've fired 1200 to 1400 rounds through it with out any reliablity issues at all. I was told to expect some feeding problems during the first 500 or so rounds because 1911's need to be broke in. Ours has been great from day one, we love it! :cool:

wjv
08-16-2010, 11:18
Fatal Flaw of the 1911

Yup. . . They're addictive. . .


Adding comments has been disabled for this video

Don't blame him. . Otherwise he would have 900+ comments telling him how stupid he is.

ERASER
08-16-2010, 14:16
And what happens when he grabs a revolver to shoot?