Why not +P? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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hounds2
07-31-2010, 05:12
i have just purchased a new Remington R1 and the owners manual says no +P. i have no urge to shoot +P but am curious why some guns will handle it and some wont. it doesnt seem like its a strenght issue as all are pressure tested and approved at much increased pressures. the design of the Rem is no different than most other 1911 and remington has always used very good steel in their guns. please let me know if you have any idea.

remat
07-31-2010, 14:24
I personally found the warranty to be odd too. Especially the extended warranty that you can optionally purchase.

Gun Shark
07-31-2010, 14:31
CYA maybe.

bac1023
08-01-2010, 14:18
It would probably be fine, but the company is just trying to cover their butt.

Rinspeed
08-01-2010, 14:21
All guns will handle it some just longer than others.

ArmoryDoc
08-01-2010, 22:52
Attorneys. It's all about the flippin' attorney and legal garbage.

ctfireman
08-02-2010, 16:55
I've found a few manuals to not recommend +p. Probably bc they want to reduce the amount of free repairs.

COLDSTEEL165
08-06-2010, 03:24
I hear this arguement on all the other forum's also +p no +p why do we really need a +P ammo for CC SD ? It's shot placement is it not weather +P or not ? Let's hear the arguement's. guy's

BuckyP
08-06-2010, 07:45
IMO, it has to be a cya thing.

When I think of some of my earlier Open guns built on 1911 platforms (single stack and wide body), it's amazing the amount of hot rounds this platform will take. I was running a steady diet of 124g 9x21s going out at 1450 fps. Of course I did eventually break a barrel lug,,, at about 80K!

ArmoryDoc
08-06-2010, 08:15
It's been argued to death. No sense in rehashing an argument that is based on more opinion than not.

1911Tuner
08-06-2010, 09:05
It could be that they're using cast slides. They don't hold up as well from the increased recoil impulse, and tend to crack in the port adjacent to the breechface. Seen it happen with Essex slides in as little as 10,000 rounds of standard pressure stuff.

MD357
08-06-2010, 09:29
It could be that they're using cast slides. They don't hold up as well from the increased recoil impulse, and tend to crack in the port adjacent to the breechface. Seen it happen with Essex slides in as little as 10,000 rounds of standard pressure stuff.

That's what I was thinking, although I dunno if it's really that big of a deal. More of a CYA thing, IMO. Caspian used to guarantee all of their .45 frames and slides but wouldn't do so with .40/10mm. I have no idea if this is still true.

1911Tuner
08-06-2010, 14:19
Caspian still uses barstock slides with cast frames. The frame isn't the issue with investment casting. The frame and barrel are the "gun." The frame is basically just a gun mount. The real stresses are in the slide.

MD357
08-06-2010, 23:30
Caspian still uses barstock slides with cast frames. The frame isn't the issue with investment casting. The frame and barrel are the "gun." The frame is basically just a gun mount. The real stresses are in the slide.

Well that's an interesting theory. :rofl:

1911Tuner
08-07-2010, 04:48
Well...It's not a theory, MD..but do carry on. Hear?

MD357
08-07-2010, 08:59
Well...It's not a theory, MD..but do carry on. Hear?

Not really carrying on, just relaying what I've actually seen. There's a few 10mm guys locally that shoot A LOT. The only reason I said what I said was one of them had a 10mm caspian where the frame cracked and caspian wouldn't warranty. Your comment implies that cracked frames don't happen?

1911Tuner
08-07-2010, 11:33
Your comment implies that cracked frames don't happen?

Frame cracks happen in different places and for a variety of reasons. The most common one is at the junction of the rails and the dust cover. The cause for that one is very simple. Thin metal + sharp corners/stress risers + insufficient clearance between the top of the cover and the bottom of the rail(s) + the impact shock of the slide hitting the frame brings that on.

When the slide hits the frame, the dust cover actually springs upward a fraction. If the clearance is too tight...it bounces off the slide, and the stress risers start to create cracks. Many top wrenches cut a very slight rake on the dust cover to provide that clearance when the slide is full rearward. I believe Ted Yost has done it for years.

Remember, too, that the 10mm is an intense cartridge, with nearly double the working pressures, and produces far more recoil impulse and slide impact than the one that the 1911 was designed to take.

Those cracks aren't life-threatening anyway, and they're usually self-limiting and stop as soon as the stress is relieved.

If, on the other hand, the slide cracks at the junction of the breechface and the cartridge guide...in the thin port area from recoil and tensile stresses...the breechblock and barrel begin to separate. Headspace suddenly grows, and the case backs up in the chamber. Case head is now unsupported. Every time the gun is fired, the crack grows longer, allowing the breech to open wider. Headspace gets larger with every shot. Eventually, somethin's gotta give. Either the round bursts, and sends hot gas and brass shards into the magazine, or the rear section of the slide lets go...and you get to find out how long it takes a surgeon to remove it from your face.

If the round blows and the hot gas and shards cause a sympathetic detonation of 2-3 rounds in the magazine...and it has happened...it can get pretty ugly.

Cast slides lack the tensile strength and the structural integrity of machined forgings. While they'll all crack with enough use, the machined slide will outlast the casting by 10:1 or more. I've busted both types. Even a top quality investment cast slide won't hold up to the pounding under hard use. I've seen'em let go in as little as 10,000 rounds. That's why Caspian will use cast frames, but their slides are machined barstock. Rock Island got away from cast slides for the same reasons.

So, I'll say it again. The "gun" is the slide and barrel. The frame is essentially a gun mount. The destructive action takes place in the slide.

1911Tuner
08-07-2010, 11:44
You can fashion a crude gun with no more than a length of pipe...welded or capped at one end...a drill and countersink to make a touch hole...a handful of black powder and a ball...a dribble of flash powder...and a match. Load it. Prime it. Strike the match. Bang! It's a gun. That's actually all that made up primitive guns. Crude stocks that allowed the shooter to more readily adjust the gun's direction of fire came along later. Hence was born the gun mount. Much more efficient, more practical, and more accurate than simply sticking the breech end into the ground or a tree trunk.

Step up to a large "pipe" and affix it to a caisson...or a carriage if you prefer...and it's an early artillery piece. The gun is still the barrel. The caisson/carriage is the gun mount. With our without the mount, it's still a gun.

Fast forward to 1945 and a Colt Model of 1911A1 US Army. Remove the barrel and slide assembly. Work a cartridge into the chamber and place the barrel into the battery position. Flip it upside down and clamp it in a vise so it'll remain in the in-battery position. Place a punch against the rear of the firing pin and smack it with the hammer. Gun. Bang. The gun is the barrel and slide. The vise is the gun mount.

See it?

solomansousana
08-07-2010, 12:26
The new Remington uses a Cast frame, and +P puts undue stress on the entire weapon.

Hokie1911
08-07-2010, 14:34
:popcorn:

1911Tuner
08-07-2010, 16:26
The new Remington uses a Cast frame, and +P puts undue stress on the entire weapon.

'Tis the slide, and not the frame that concerns me.

The WW1 and WW2 era GI pistols had dead soft frames. No heat treating was done at all, and only key areas of the slides were hardened on the WW2 pistols. Yet, the frames held up through numerous rebuilds while many slides went to the scrap barrel. That's why the government ordered about a dozen slides and barrels for every complete pistol that was delivered. Everything except the frame was considered to be an expendable service part.

MD357
08-07-2010, 17:03
1911tuner, you're following a relative red herring here. I'm not arguing stress relative to either. The point I was trying to make is that in the past, some manufacturers of cast frames didn't warranty frames with higher pressure loads. You then implied that cast frames are never a problem, which differs from my experiences.

gconan
08-07-2010, 18:48
Frame cracks happen in different places and for a variety of reasons. The most common one is at the junction of the rails and the dust cover. The cause for that one is very simple. Thin metal + sharp corners/stress risers + insufficient clearance between the top of the cover and the bottom of the rail(s) + the impact shock of the slide hitting the frame brings that on.

When the slide hits the frame, the dust cover actually springs upward a fraction. If the clearance is too tight...it bounces off the slide, and the stress risers start to create cracks. Many top wrenches cut a very slight rake on the dust cover to provide that clearance when the slide is full rearward. I believe Ted Yost has done it for years.

Remember, too, that the 10mm is an intense cartridge, with nearly double the working pressures, and produces far more recoil impulse and slide impact than the one that the 1911 was designed to take.

Those cracks aren't life-threatening anyway, and they're usually self-limiting and stop as soon as the stress is relieved.

If, on the other hand, the slide cracks at the junction of the breechface and the cartridge guide...in the thin port area from recoil and tensile stresses...the breechblock and barrel begin to separate. Headspace suddenly grows, and the case backs up in the chamber. Case head is now unsupported. Every time the gun is fired, the crack grows longer, allowing the breech to open wider. Headspace gets larger with every shot. Eventually, somethin's gotta give. Either the round bursts, and sends hot gas and brass shards into the magazine, or the rear section of the slide lets go...and you get to find out how long it takes a surgeon to remove it from your face.

If the round blows and the hot gas and shards cause a sympathetic detonation of 2-3 rounds in the magazine...and it has happened...it can get pretty ugly.

Cast slides lack the tensile strength and the structural integrity of machined forgings. While they'll all crack with enough use, the machined slide will outlast the casting by 10:1 or more. I've busted both types. Even a top quality investment cast slide won't hold up to the pounding under hard use. I've seen'em let go in as little as 10,000 rounds. That's why Caspian will use cast frames, but their slides are machined barstock. Rock Island got away from cast slides for the same reasons.

So, I'll say it again. The "gun" is the slide and barrel. The frame is essentially a gun mount. The destructive action takes place in the slide.

Thank you 1911Tuner! I love reading your posts!