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ContractSoldier
07-31-2010, 14:00
I've been reading alot about the .357 Sig round since I'm considering buying a X Change sub compact .357 Sig kit for my P250, so there's some questions i have about this round.

.357 Sig and the .357 Magnum

Hydrostatic shock: From what I've read, the .357 Magnum round flying at 1500 feet per second or greater and hitting the target with 500 foot pounds or greater, causing a ballistic pressure wave level of 500 PSI or greater, can cause faster incapacitating effects.

I've read about where the .357 Magnum round would hit the target, meeting all of the above data in terms of Hydostatic shock and Hydraulic effect, the round would hit the target in the chest and in some cases with enough force that would cause neural damage and brain trauma such as brain hemorrhaging from the round impacting the chest.

Since the .357 Sig was designed to mimic the .357 Magnum, has it been able to produce the same effect's as the .357 Magnum in real life street shooting's were the results are identical to the .357 Magnum shooting's?

Which rounds in the .357 Sig have been proven to cause the Hyostatic shock in real life shootings?

Law Enforment Use

I've read of several shooting's involving the Virginia State police where each time the suspect was stopped instantly with a single shot using the Speer Gold Dot 125 Gr.

Is there any cases where the .357 Sig round has failed in a real life shooting and if so, could anyone provide the name and weight of that round?

I understand the Texas DPS uses the .357 Sig and has had good luck with it, which round do they issue?

BlutoBlutarsky
07-31-2010, 15:36
From what I've read Texas uses the Speer GDHP. I haven't found a report yet of an LE shooting where the 357 sig failed and I have read of brain hemorrhaging from upper torso hits with the 357 sig. I'm no Dr. and haven't stayed at a Holiday Inn Exp in a long time but I know when the 125 gr. .355 bullet reaches the mid to upper 1300's it does things that no other auto I've tested, does. The folks at Ammolab saw the same thing I'm seeing. It's what I've been carrying for over 12 years and I have no intention of changing.

Free Radical
07-31-2010, 15:53
.357 SIG only duplicates .357 mag ballistics in a 125 gr. bullet out of a 5" barrel. With heavier bullets the .357 mag is substantially more powerful.
The SIG has it's own virtues. Smaller frame, lighter weight, increased capacity.
For two legged varmints the .357 SIG is probably the better choice.

I capitalize SIG because it is an acronym. :supergrin:

ContractSoldier
07-31-2010, 18:55
.357 SIG only duplicates .357 mag ballistics in a 125 gr. bullet out of a 5" barrel.

Thanks for that info, the department's I've listed above are using barrels shorter then 5 inch's, but the rounds still seems to be serving them well even if the .357 Sig rounds fired are not reaching close to .357 Magnum ballistics.

ContractSoldier
07-31-2010, 18:57
From what I've read Texas uses the Speer GDHP. I haven't found a report yet of an LE shooting where the 357 sig failed and I have read of brain hemorrhaging from upper torso hits with the 357 sig. I'm no Dr. and haven't stayed at a Holiday Inn Exp in a long time but I know when the 125 gr. .355 bullet reaches the mid to upper 1300's it does things that no other auto I've tested, does. The folks at Ammolab saw the same thing I'm seeing. It's what I've been carrying for over 12 years and I have no intention of changing.

Thanks, is Texas DPS using the 125 Gr. Gold Dot?

BlutoBlutarsky
07-31-2010, 20:10
Thanks, is Texas DPS using the 125 Gr. Gold Dot?

That is what they started with and I believe are still using. On the velocity, the design was for 1350 fps from a 4" barrel with the 125 gr bullet. Most factory loads are close to or over that number, except Fiocchi's XTP load.

ContractSoldier
08-01-2010, 01:39
I've noticed that the Speer Gold Dot, part number 54234, leaves the barrel at 1375 fps while part number 53918, leaves the barrel at 1350 fps. What's the reason for the two differences in the same 125 Gr. round and which would be the better choice?

Winchester Ranger T .357 Sig ballistics look the same as Speer's part number 53918.

DonGlock26
08-01-2010, 06:23
I like the .357 Sig round. Just be careful not to recycle the same round in your pistol's chamber. Bullet set back can occur.

fredj338
08-01-2010, 12:00
I like the .357 Sig round. Just be careful not to recycle the same round in your pistol's chamber. Bullet set back can occur.

True w/ ALL service pistol rounds, just more so w/ the 357sig. You can rechamber rounds repeatedly, just depends on the particular pistol & specifc ammo manuf. Just verify each time you unchamber that round. If it's setback, discard or pull them down for reloading.
I like the 357sig, good hard hitting round that is pretty easy to shoot well. I am not all sold on the BPW theory, still a theory after all, but to deny some add'l trauma does not exist w/ high vel impacts is just a bit miopic. Most current quality 357sig will hit 1350fps+ in a 4" bbl. Most will hit 1400fps+ in a 5".
I currently carry the RangerT, GDHP or Rem GSB, if you can find it. The RGSB has clocked the highest in my guns so far @ 1320fps in my 3.5"bbl P239 vs 190fps of the other two. It also penetrate deeper in wetpack test than either.

ContractSoldier
08-01-2010, 12:49
I read that they recently fixed the issue with setback on newer ammo, but i think I'll still stay with my plan of always leaving one in the chamber when it come's to the .357 Sig. If i have to eject that round for whatever reason, that round will go to range ammo.

fastbolt
08-01-2010, 13:41
Believe it or not, this subject comes up much more frequently on internet firearm forums than it does whenever instructors get together and discuss firearms training, gear and ammunition selection. ;)

Even back in the day when I carried an issued .357 Magnum revolver and the gun magazines were starting to publish articles lauding the middle weight 125gr JHP load, there wasn't universal agreement about it's vaunted effectiveness. I remember talking with other cops who had used heavier loads with very satisfying effect and were in no hurry to think about changing their loads.

Although I carried a few of the different .125 gr JHP loads from time to time, I actually liked the slightly heavier 140-145gr JHP loads when I could find them. I remember attending a couple of wound ballistics seminars being taught by a retired fed DOJ investigator who used to travel to investigate shootings. He had some very interesting info about the 125gr v. 140gr SJHP Magnum loads. His opinion was that if the Magnum revolver had remained in LE service for a few years longer, that we probably would have seen a shift to the 140gr loads. It was his opinion that they offered the same benefits as the 125gr loads, but to a slighter greater degree.

Once the "what was old is new again" thinking gave us the .357SIG 125gr JHP, it gave us an interesting choice of attempting to duplicate the "ballistic advantages" of the short barreled Magnum revolver cartridge (although in a .355 bullet designed to feed in a pistol, v. the .357 revolver bullet which had a lot more exposed lead at the nose cavity mouth, such as in the SJHP).

It gave us more capacity than a revolver, granted.

It also reportedly gave some manufacturers some interesting times in resolving some ammunition production considerations, too. Then there were the expansion/penetration considerations and some refining of bullet design to meet different desires and expectations of different users who expressed interest in the new cartridge.

I never took notes when listening or reading about the experiences of some other agencies when it came to actual shootings where the .357SIG was used, but I did hear of some instances discussed by other cops and trainers where the cartridge did not yield one-shot-stops. No surprise. It's still just a handgun round folks. ;) I remember learning of shootings back when .41 Magnum and .357 Magnum revolvers were used by cops, too, and how cops emptied their revolvers, hitting armed attackers with 6 rounds, without instantly incapacitating their attackers.

I personally only know one fellow who used a .357SIG in a shooting. He placed a single round exactly (heart) where it resulted in stopping his armed attacker and dropping him where he stood, inflicting a fatal gunshot wound. However, that very skilled gentleman carries either a .357 Magnum, a 9mm or a .38 Spl on his own time nowadays, and a .45 on-duty.

I've twice listened to a cop who travels and participates in LE seminars, and who was shot with a .357 Magnum by an attacker. It resulted in a horrendous gunshot injury, including a hole in the bottom of the heart which required extensive emergency surgeries. After receiving the Magnum gunshot wound in the chest, the cop advanced upon the attacker and killed him with a service 9mm (firing and hitting with 4 shots if I remember correctly, but my notes are out at my bench bookcase). The cop became incapacitated after confirming the attacker was down and that no further threats were imminent (other gang members fled), and after taking several steps toward a house to seek assistance.

If you like the .357SIG, good for you. Choose a good model, use quality factory ammunition and practice, practice, practice.

It's still just a defensive handgun caliber, though.

I suspect we're going to continue to have to wait for several more years while the medical field continues to study the effect of gunshot wounds on people and tries to determine if the "hydrostatic shock" effect (or whatever other name is used) is predictable and relevant when it comes to handgun cartridges in use among the more common service-type handguns.

Even then, however, we may find that there's still going to be one or more potential trade-off's that might have to be considered before choosing to place "hydrostatic shock" effect at the top of the criteria used to select service/defensive ammunition.

There's no such thing as a free lunch, you know? :cool:

BlutoBlutarsky
08-01-2010, 14:29
Believe it or not, this subject comes up much more frequently on internet firearm forums than it does whenever instructors get together and discuss firearms training, gear and ammunition selection. ;)

Even back in the day when I carried an issued .357 Magnum revolver and the gun magazines were starting to publish articles lauding the middle weight 125gr JHP load, there wasn't universal agreement about it's vaunted effectiveness. I remember talking with other cops who had used heavier loads with very satisfying effect and were in nor hurry to think about changing their loads.

Although I carried a few of the different .125 gr JHP loads from time to time, I actually liked the slightly heavier 140-145gr JHP loads when I could find them. I remember attending a couple of wound ballistics seminars being taught by a retired fed DOJ investigator who used to travel to investigate shootings. He had some very interesting info about the 125gr v. 140gr SJHP Magnum loads. His opinion was that if the revolver had remained in LE service for a few years longer, that we probably would have seen a shift to the 140gr loads. It was his opinion that they offered the same benefits as the 125gr loads, to a slighter greater degree.

Once the "what was old is new again' thinking gave us the .357SIG 125gr JHP, it gave us an interesting choice of attempting to duplicate the "ballistic advantages" of the short barreled Magnum revolver cartridge (although in a .355 bullet designed to feed in a pistol, v. the .357 revolver bullet which had a lot more exposed lead at the nose cavity mouth, such as in the SJHP).

It gave us more capacity than a revolver, granted.

It also reportedly gave some manufacturers some interesting times in resolving some ammunition production considerations, too. Then there were the expansion/penetration considerations and some refining of bullet design to meet different desires and expectations of different users who expressed interest in the new cartridge.

I never took notes when listening or reading about the experiences of some other agencies when it came to actual shootings where the .357SIG was used, but I did hear of some instances discussed by other cops and trainers where the cartridge did not yield one-shot-stops. No surprise. It's still just a handgun round folks. ;) I remember learning of shootings back when .41 Magnum and .357 Magnum revolvers were used by cops, too, and how cops emptied their revolvers, hitting armed attackers with 6 rounds, without instantly incapacitating their attackers.

I personally only know one fellow who used a .357SIG in a shooting. He placed a single round exactly (heart) where it resulted in stopping his armed attacker and dropping him where he stood, inflicting a fatal gunshot wound. However, that very skilled gentleman carries either a .357 Magnum, a 9mm or a .38 Spl on his own time nowadays, and a .45 on-duty.

I've twice listened to a cop who travels and participates in LE seminars, and who was shot with a .357 Magnum by an attacker. It resulted in a horrendous gunshot injury, including a hole in the bottom of the heart which required extensive emergency surgeries. After receiving the Magnum gunshot wound in the chest, the cop advanced upon the attacker and killed him with a service 9mm (firing and hitting with 4 shots if I remember correctly, but my notes are out at my bench bookcase). The cop became incapacitated after confirming the attacker was down and that no further threats were imminent (other gang members fled), and after taking several steps toward a house to seek assistance.

If you like the .357SIG, good for you. Choose a good model, use quality factory ammunition and practice, practice, practice.

It's still just a defensive handgun caliber, though.

I suspect we're going to continue to have to wait for several more years while the medical field continues to study the effect of gunshot wounds on people and tries to determine if the "hydrostatic shock" effect (or whatever other name is used) is predictable and relevant when it comes to handgun cartridges in use among the more common service-type handguns.

Even then, however, we may find that there's still going to be one or more potential trade-off's that might have to be considered before choosing to place "hydrostatic shock" effect at the top of the criteria used to select service/defensive ammunition.

There's no such thing as a free lunch, you know? :cool:

Good post, there is no "magic bullet" you just have to go with what you are most comfortable with in a proven design and practice, practice practice. Glad I have a choice and not just what I am issued.

fredj338
08-01-2010, 15:11
Although I carried a few of the different .125 gr JHP loads from time to time, I actually liked the slightly heavier 140-145gr JHP loads when I could find them. I remember attending a couple of wound ballistics seminars being taught by a retired fed DOJ investigator who used to travel to investigate shootings. He had some very interesting info about the 125gr v. 140gr SJHP Magnum loads. His opinion was that if the revolver had remained in LE service for a few years longer, that we probably would have seen a shift to the 140gr loads. It was his opinion that they offered the same benefits as the 125gr loads, to a slighter greater degree.
I have to agree. I've often thought Speer is on the right track w/ a 135grGDHP, but NOT at a reduced velocity, at full vel. Same for the 9mm+P rounds. The SD of most 125gr bullets is just not quite enough, but it can be overcome w/ better bullet design. I've played around w/ the 135grGDHP in the 357sig, it looks very promising @ near 1300fps.

fastbolt
08-01-2010, 16:52
Yeah, CCI/Speer used to offer a 140gr JHP load. The bullet had what they called their PentaPoint hollowpoint, or some such thing, I think. Anybody else remember more? Just a little pentagon-shaped itty bitty nose cavity if I'm remembering right.

Anyway, it was a full power, robust Magnum load (we had nothing else back then) which was easily found in any gun store. The bullet could be purchased as a separate component and it was the favorite of my father (and subsequently, me) for a stout handload. When I entered LE work I went out and bought it once I'd used up the Magnum loads issued to me when I was hired. Once I got over some of the early gun magazine promotion of the 125gr JHP's I had a hard time finding the CCI Magnum load again, but I was able to find the 'medium velocity' W-W 145gr STHP load, and then the excellent Rem 140gr SJHP load. I still have a couple boxes of the 140gr SJHP load put back against the day I may again carry another full-size .357 Magnum revolver sometime. ;)

Considering the tremendous advances the companies have made using CAD to make better expanding JHP's, maybe the new 135gr GD can be revised to withstand the higher velocities of a true Magnum load and give us even better 'performance' than the loads of yesteryear, and maybe we'll see another middle weight defensive Magnum load offered by Speer. Hope so. It's just that main thrust of the rebirth of the .357 Magnum's popularity seems to be linked to the short-barreled 2-3" guns which don't make as effective use of the Magnum loads as the 4-6" guns can make of them. It makes commercial sense to cater to this growing market, of course. I own a SP101DAO in which I carry Magnum loads, but I carry +P loads in my M&P 340. ;)

DonGlock26
08-01-2010, 17:48
True w/ ALL service pistol rounds, just more so w/ the 357sig. You can rechamber rounds repeatedly, just depends on the particular pistol & specifc ammo manuf. Just verify each time you unchamber that round. If it's setback, discard or pull them down for reloading.
I like the 357sig, good hard hitting round that is pretty easy to shoot well. I am not all sold on the BPW theory, still a theory after all, but to deny some add'l trauma does not exist w/ high vel impacts is just a bit miopic. Most current quality 357sig will hit 1350fps+ in a 4" bbl. Most will hit 1400fps+ in a 5".
I currently carry the RangerT, GDHP or Rem GSB, if you can find it. The RGSB has clocked the highest in my guns so far @ 1320fps in my 3.5"bbl P239 vs 190fps of the other two. It also penetrate deeper in wetpack test than either.


Fred,

I'm a range master/armorer for a PD. I've only seen set back with .357 Sig GDs. I'm not saying it can't happen, but out of tens of thousands of rounds (9mm, .40, .45acp, .357 Sig), I've only seen .357 Sig do it (BTW- I love the round). FWIW

Another warning, if you keep loading the same round into the chamber, you risk the extractor chewing up the rim to the point of causing a failure to extract. I just rotate the rounds in my magazines until I shoot it up.

Stay safe,

Don

9mmParabellum
08-01-2010, 18:00
The 357sig is a good round I carry a 9mm 124gr Speer Gold Dot loaded by Buffalo Bore Ammo and get 1289fps out of a 4in barrel their 115gr is something to look at at 1400fps.

Ladies and Gentlemen we all want a good bullet etc but like I tell everyone concentrate on learning how to shoot, technique, tactics.
You have to hit what you are shooting at to solve your immediate problem and get good hits.

Spraying the land scape buts innocent people at risk you must learn this gunfighting game.

fredj338
08-01-2010, 23:35
Ladies and Gentlemen we all want a good bullet etc but like I tell everyone concentrate on learning how to shoot, technique, tactics.
You have to hit what you are shooting at to solve your immediate problem and get good hits.

Spraying the land scape buts innocent people at risk you must learn this gunfighting game.
All true, but it should be a given that anyone owning a gun for SD/HD gets training & practices. I know that is completely not true for a vast majority of gun owners, but it should be automatic. With that said, nothing wrong w/ looking for a better mousetrap as long as you keep it in persepctive, ie, if I can't get ammo 'A' I am still fine w/ 'B' or 'C'.:supergrin:
I'm a range master/armorer for a PD. I've only seen set back with .357 Sig GDs. I'm not saying it can't happen, but out of tens of thousands of rounds (9mm, .40, .45acp, .357 Sig), I've only seen .357 Sig do it (BTW- I love the round). FWIW
I've seen bullet setback in all the service rounds, 9mm,40 or 45acp. If you shoot enough, crap happens. Not as often w/ 9mm as it's tapered, but have still seen it. Rechamber any round enough, pull it & measure it, they do setback. Certain gun designs will cause this more than others. Certain brands of ammo are more susceptable. It's always prudent to check the round when you unchamber. FWIW, I think early KB issues w/ the 40 were because of bullet setback from LEO rechambering rounds.

PghJim
08-02-2010, 21:46
I've noticed that the Speer Gold Dot, part number 54234, leaves the barrel at 1375 fps while part number 53918, leaves the barrel at 1350 fps. What's the reason for the two differences in the same 125 Gr. round and which would be the better choice?

Winchester Ranger T .357 Sig ballistics look the same as Speer's part number 53918.


I do not think anyone has answered this for you. The 53918 uses a different five petal bullet that opens easier and it is for lower penetration. The 54234, which is considered LE ammo now has the six petal bullet and an extra 25 fps. With a 4.5" barrel in my G32 I am getting about 1,415+ out of the 54234. However I have some older Buffalo Bore with the same bullet that goes 1,520fps. You can definetly get into the 357 magnum range but most bullets are developed to stay together and penetrate further. The Remington 125gr 357 Mag. load would fragment with about a 60% core pentrating about 10 inches. The Corbon loads are the only bullet design that comes close. However, I believe a GD going 1,400+ would still be very effective, just not the same. The Ranger T has a different part number, which I cannot remember right now. I have a few boxes and it expands well, but only goes 1,340fps out of a 4" barrel.

I was talking to a Winchester Rep. a few weeks ago and he told me they are working on a new round for the USSS.

snevel
08-02-2010, 22:36
For what it's worth...

A couple of weeks ago, the folks at the ProArms podcast devoted an entire episode to a discussion of the .357 SIG.

In short:

Excellent terminal ballistics confirmed by those agencies that use it
Flat shooting
Inherently accurate
A pain-in-the-butt to reload because of the bottle-necked cartridge.

You can hear the whole thing at:

http://proarmspodcast.com/2010/07/11/055-were-getting-the-band-back-together-to-discuss-the-357sig-cartridge/

Simeon

fredj338
08-02-2010, 23:21
For what it's worth...

A couple of weeks ago, the folks at the ProArms podcast devoted an entire episode to a discussion of the .357 SIG.

In short:

Excellent terminal ballistics confirmed by those agencies that use it
Flat shooting
Inherently accurate
A pain-in-the-butt to reload because of the bottle-necked cartridge.

You can hear the whole thing at:

http://proarmspodcast.com/2010/07/11/055-were-getting-the-band-back-together-to-discuss-the-357sig-cartridge/

Simeon

It's really not that much harder to reload than any other round. Get the right dies, set them up right, use the right bullets, load em up & go shoot.:dunno:

fredj338
08-02-2010, 23:25
However, I believe a GD going 1,400+ would still be very effective, just not the same. The Ranger T has a different part number, which I cannot remember right now. I have a few boxes and it expands well, but only goes 1,340fps out of a 4" barrel.

I was talking to a Winchester Rep. a few weeks ago and he told me they are working on a new round for the USSS.

Exactly. I have yet to find a current 357mag 125gr load that will do much better than 1400fps in a 4" bbl rev. SO they are pretty much the same when it comes to 125gr loads. Obviosuly the 357mag pulls away w/ heavier bullets. It's why I think the 357sig should be available w/ something in the 135gr range @ 1300fps.:dunno:

AWESOMO 4000
08-06-2010, 22:19
I am a big fan of the .357SIG, as I am all of the service calibers. I think all of them are interesting and have something to offer, and make a compelling case for themselves. Again, yes, training and familiarity is the most important thing. The current loads are watered down from what it was originally intended; CorBon still makes what it was originally supposed to do 125gr JHP @ 1425fps out of a 4" barrel.

That being said, I am never failed to be amazed by my P229R in .357SIG. Wherever that big white dot is pointed at, that is where the bullet goes. No issues hitting a Coke can at 50yards with the first shot - shoots flat and consistently out to that kind of distance with a 3.86" barrel. In IDPA shoots when people start picking up brass, they always make an effort to hand it to me, because I have the only .357 there, and is a topic of conversation; I don't have the heart to tell them I have no plans on reloading it. But it is appreciated!

Great load, fun stuff. But so are 9mm's, .40 S&Ws, .45 ACP, .45 GAP, .44 Magnum, .357 Magnum, 10mm, and even the .38 Special...really need to get me a 642 snubbie Smith.

TheGrimReaper
08-06-2010, 23:04
Dude, .357 Sig is an awsome round for it's intended use. Very good cartridge.