6 small pistol and small rifle primer comparisons [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Glolt20-91
08-04-2010, 11:56
Trying to keep things simple.

38 Super small pistol-rifle primer chronograph comparisons

Sierra V load data uses WSR (small rifle) primers rather than small pistol primers, 8.1grs WSF is their max powder weight.

Colt Gov’t, 4300ft, 79F to 84F, 65% RH

WSF/7.5grs, R-P +P unfired brass, COAL 1.234” +/- .001”, 121 Zero JHP, true .356cal bullet for the .38 Super

CCI 500;
1464fps/576fpe, ES 48fps, SD 17

WSP
1434fps/567fpe, ES 24fps, SD 09fps

Federal 100
1438fps/556fpe, ES 12fps, SD 05fps

Small rifle primers

WSR
1435fps/568fpe, ES 41fps, SD 16fps

CCI 400
1495fps/600fpe, ES 105fps, SD 37fps

Remington 7 ˝ bench rest
1458fps/571fpe, ES 69fps, SD 21fps

I have don't have an explanation why the CCI small rifle primer gave such horrendous extreme spread velocities. Both WSP/WSR primers gave the same MV, but the WSP had a lower ES.

In contrast, the Federal 100 primer load (lowest ES/SD numbers) gave this small group of ejected brass at about 5 feet;

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/38SuperFederal100ejectedbrassWSF.jpg

For those who load for competition, WSF could be backed off a bit and still make major. This is a loud powder.

Bob :cowboy:

jeffreybehr
08-05-2010, 17:16
How large were your velocity-testing batches?

I've experienced velocity changes opposite of powder-charge changes with small batches.

fredj338
08-05-2010, 18:19
I have don't have an explanation why the CCI small rifle primer gave such horrendous extreme spread velocities. Both WSP/WSR primers gave the same MV, but the WSP had a lower ES.

In contrast, the Federal 100 primer load (lowest ES/SD numbers) gave this small group of ejected brass at about 5 feet;

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/38SuperFederal100ejectedbrassWSF.jpg

For those who load for competition, WSF could be backed off a bit and still make major. This is a loud powder.

Bob :cowboy:

Maybe just a bad batch of CCI400. Another test sample would confirm that. Interesting, thanks.

Glolt20-91
08-06-2010, 00:08
Five shot strings in the order they were loaded. I may load up some more CCI 400 primers and test them in my G20, very accurate load, .38Super barrel of course. :supergrin:

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/38SuperinG20125grXTP003.jpg

These .357cal magnum velocity design 125gr XTPs are pleasant shooting; MV from a Colt 1911 was 1491fps, ES 44fps, N105, Federal 100s.

Bob :cowboy:

jeffreybehr
08-06-2010, 11:58
Five shot strings in the order they were loaded.

...as in ONE 5-shot string? IMO that's not statistically reliable. If you would shoot all those again with 10-shot strings and combine the data for 15-shot strings, your data will be MUCH-more reliable. I've seen the velocities of 5-shot strings with increasing powder charges go in opposite directions.

FWIW, I'll be comparing the accuracy and velocities of 2 loads identical but for WPL and CCI300 primers today. I've loaded 20 rounds of each. We'll see what we see.

Glolt20-91
08-07-2010, 11:41
...as in ONE 5-shot string? IMO that's not statistically reliable. If you would shoot all those again with 10-shot strings and combine the data for 15-shot strings, your data will be MUCH-more reliable. I've seen the velocities of 5-shot strings with increasing powder charges go in opposite directions.

FWIW, I'll be comparing the accuracy and velocities of 2 loads identical but for WPL and CCI300 primers today. I've loaded 20 rounds of each. We'll see what we see.

Looking foward to your results. A 20 round string may slightly alter average and standard deviation velocities as compared to 5 shot strings, but a 20 round string can't lower the CCI 400, 105fps extreme spread velocity as tested above. While the population sample of a 20 round string yields a more accurate assessment of the average MV; it's not a statiscally significant difference vis a` vis 5, 7 or 10 shot strings.

From several years back, same 7.5grs WSF/WSR/Colt 1911 combination, only with a 124gr Golden Saber, 7 shot string, springtime, 4200ft, dry humidity, same general temp range;

1424fps/558fpe, ES 27fps, SD 10fps; only an 11fps average fps difference with the tested 121gr Zero JHP

Increasing WSF load weight to 8.0grs only increased MV to 1455fps, widened ES to 62fps and SD to 25fps.

These are the powders I tested with the WSR/124gr Golden Saber combinations several years back, 7 shot strings;

Titegroup/5.7grs; MV/1326fps, ES 37fps, SD 14fps

WSF/7.5grs; MV/1424fps, ES 27fps, SD 10fps

Power Pistol/7.5grs; MV/1419fps, ES 20fps, SD 09fps

AA #7/9.8grs; MV/1412fps, ES 62fps, SD 21fps

3N38/8.5grs; MV/1350fps, ES 34fps, SD 13fps

HS-7/9.7grs; MV/1445fps, ES 49fps, SD 17fps

Universal Clays/6.6grs; MV 1389fps, ES 26fps, SD 10fps

This is just one bullet/primer combination loaded with 7 different powders; what would have been gained by loading up 140 rounds to be tested vs the above 49 rounds? If a powder/bullet weight combination isn't accurate in a 5 round spread; it won't be more accurate in a 20 round spread.

I have pages and pages of loads for the Super, while the AA #7 load above for the 124gr Golden Saber was kind of a yawn experience; it turned out to be a superb powder for the 125gr Gold Dot (mid 1400s) and a different small pistol primer in the Para, but not in the Colt.

Rather than establish a base with a single 20 round string; I compare 5 round to 10 round strings taken at different times of the year. When I find a load combination/s I like, I'll load up a 50 round box or more and then randomly pick 5-7 rounds to chronograph when climatic changes occur. Using this method thus far, accurate loads don't seem to become inaccurate over time.

Bob :cowboy:

sourdough44
08-08-2010, 15:34
I tried some sp primers with mild-mid loads in a 204 Ruger. They loaded up & shot fine, no visible problems.