9mm/9x23 and 38 Super [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Quack
08-04-2010, 18:08
so tell me about the 9x23.
can a gun be setup to shoot 9mm & 9x23 from the same barrel?
how is the 9x23 vs the 38 Super?
saw a Nowlin Commander with a tag that said 9mm/9x23 and had an additional 38 Super barrel with it.

Quack
08-04-2010, 18:12
it looked pretty much like this, but 2-tone the left side was naked.

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a349/Redsnake/Nowlin_CDT_Commander.jpg

glock2740
08-04-2010, 18:26
The 9x23 is a bad mofo. :cool:

38 Super Fan
08-04-2010, 18:26
I've heard that you can shoot 9x23 out of a 38 Super barrel, never tried it though, could just be a rumour. I think the cases are nearly identical except 9x23 brass is thicker and can be loaded up to 50,000psi or so, giving it real 357 Magnum type performance.

Jim Watson
08-04-2010, 19:15
I would not care to shoot 9x19 in a 9x23 barrel.
I know some of the early experimenters shot 9x23 in .38 Super barrels but it is not a perfect fit.

Quack
08-04-2010, 19:20
Thanks for the input.

HAIL CAESAR
08-04-2010, 20:25
The 9x23 is a spectacular round. True .357 Magnum ballistics out of a 1911 and less recoil than a 45 ACP.

Here is what I know and what I have gleaned taking to many smiths and barrel marker.

You can not shoot a 9mm in a 38 Super or 9x23 barrel. I should say you shouldn't as it is possible to do so, but it is very bad. If you shoot a 9mm in a Super or 9x23 barrel you are head-spacing off the extractor.

Now to the Super out of a 9x23 barrel or vicy versa;

Some smiths say you can, or can ream a Super barrel to accept both.
Some say DO NOT do it. The ones that say don't are very vocal about it and go into fits talking about how dangerous it is. You are dealing with a 50k+ PSI round..so if bad things happen you are in a world of hurt. The 9x23 is pretty much a .223 rifle brass cut down, some still make their own that way. So it is a very hot cartridge in a handgun, and should be loaded extremely carefully. (Oh, make sure you use Win brass)

At very least I would say not to use the Super and 9x23 interchangeably with the same barrel unless it has been modified by a VERY GOOD smith or barrel maker.

I would also say that to error on the side of caution (and all you fingers and eyeballs) to get a barrel for both cartridges. Barrels are cheap, fingers and eyes are not.

In going back and forth you will very, very likely have to adjust extractor tension for perfect function. The 38 is semi-rimmed and the 9x23 is rimless.

The 9x23 uses the same mags as a Super and I think the 9x23 feed better being rimless.

Quack
08-04-2010, 20:31
Thanks!!!

I was wondering how about the head space.

Still might pick it up and if I choose to shoot 9mm out of it, just to get a 3rd barrel.

Jim Watson
08-04-2010, 20:46
Most people do. Seems a common thing to buy big and shoot small.

RH45
08-07-2010, 03:56
9X23 is a tapered case, whereas the .38 Super is a straight-walled case and the 9mm headspaces off the case mouth, whereas the .38 Super uses the rim. Ballistics are pretty much the same, but, I believe the 9X23 cases are stronger by the web, and being semi-rimless, feed out of magazines better than Supers.

HAIL CAESAR
08-07-2010, 12:35
9X23 is a tapered case, whereas the .38 Super is a straight-walled case and the 9mm headspaces off the case mouth, whereas the .38 Super uses the rim. Ballistics are pretty much the same, but, I believe the 9X23 cases are stronger by the web, and being semi-rimless, feed out of magazines better than Supers.


The old 38 Super barrels did head spaces off the extractor, the new barrels all do off the case mouth. New as is last couple of decades.
The 9mm head spaces off the the case mouth also.

The 9x23 is much stronger ( thicker) at the web.

Ballistics are not the same, especially if you reload. The 9x23 blows the Super out of the water.

pistolwrench
08-07-2010, 15:37
HC,
Well stated.
I'll add this:
When choosing conflicting advice,
do your homework.
Look for a source that is well known and that has a reputation
spanning decades.
:wavey:

pistolwrench
08-07-2010, 16:02
"Look for a source that is well known and that has a reputation
spanning decades."

LOL! A millenia even!
(millenium)?

:rofl:

HAIL CAESAR
08-07-2010, 16:03
HC,
Well stated.
I'll add this:
When choosing conflicting advice,
do your homework.
Look for a source that is well known and that has a reputation
spanning decades.
:wavey:

Chuck,

That is the kick in the pants. I have talked to a lot of folks with GREAT amounts of experience. They are spit. So in turn I am spit. All I do know is that if you get two different barrels you err on the side of caution and you can't go wrong that way.

Truthfully, I would not really hesitate to have someone of your skill do it.

pistolwrench
08-07-2010, 16:11
HC,
Of course there are those that 'talk the talk' without ever 'walking the walk'.
Just because someone has been wrenching on 1911's for 10 years, does not mean that you should not question their expertise.
The 9x23 is not well known to most.
Some pistolsmiths have ZERO experience with the cartridge but don't want to sound ignorant to their audience, so they will take a stand. Unfounded as it may be.
Other pistolsmiths will avoid the issue for fear of liability.
Still others are well known but incompetent in their advice and practices.
I know, it's hard to sort the wheat from the chaff.
Read.....A LOT!
Trust.....First person accounts.
Ask....For references.

And be nice!

HAIL CAESAR
08-07-2010, 20:50
HC,
Of course there are those that 'talk the talk' without ever 'walking the walk'.
Just because someone has been wrenching on 1911's for 10 years, does not mean that you should not question their expertise.
The 9x23 is not well known to most.
Some pistolsmiths have ZERO experience with the cartridge but don't want to sound ignorant to their audience, so they will take a stand. Unfounded as it may be.
Other pistolsmiths will avoid the issue for fear of liability.:number1:

Still others are well known but incompetent in their advice and practices.
I know, it's hard to sort the wheat from the chaff.
Read.....A LOT!
Trust.....First person accounts.
Ask....For references.

And be nice!


I think we have found common ground to tally agree, especially in the parts I highlighted in red. On those that should be written in granite.

bladeandbarrel
08-07-2010, 21:51
I shoot .38 Super in 9x23 chambers and vice versa all the time. John Ricco developed (Designed, patented and sold) the 9x23 to work in a .38 Super chamber cut to proper specs. He and I have spoken at length about this. The cartridge was designed to reach major power factor, in a rimless cartridge that worked better in HIGH CAPACITY magazines. The tapered, rimless case was essential to meet that goal since it stacked better in the highg-cap mags. The byproduct was a factory defensive load that eclipsed most .357 magnum loadings (Win 125 Grain STHP) that was strong enough for un-ramped production gun barrels.

I have shot Super, .38 Supercomp, 9x23 Supercomp, and 9x23 Win in varying combinations of each. I have guns that run fine between .38 Super and 9x23 without an extractor tweak. Others need a spare extractor.

I have shot plenty of 9x23 in unramped .38 super barrels that headspace on the case mouth (even one that Chuck reamed for me)

The big issue with 9x23 reliability is not chamber, per se, but primer flow.

Some guns really need a closely matched or longish firing pin to reduce flow.

You only see this once you reach 1350 fps or shoot some of the "stellar quality" Cor-Bon ammo.

9x23 is the Mac Daddy of strong cases. I think .38 Super actually feeds better in a single stack since the 9x23 tapered case likes to nose down some.

Have fun.

pistolwrench
08-07-2010, 22:59
"The big issue with 9x23 reliability is not chamber, per se, but primer flow.

Some guns really need a closely matched or longish firing pin to reduce flow.

You only see this once you reach 1350 fps or shoot some of the "stellar quality" Cor-Bon ammo.

9x23 is the Mac Daddy of strong cases. I think .38 Super actually feeds better in a single stack since the 9x23 tapered case likes to nose down some."


Oh...snap!!!
All you need B&B is some competent pistolsmithing to soothe your aching needs.

bladeandbarrel
08-08-2010, 08:01
"The big issue with 9x23 reliability is not chamber, per se, but primer flow.

Some guns really need a closely matched or longish firing pin to reduce flow.

You only see this once you reach 1350 fps or shoot some of the "stellar quality" Cor-Bon ammo.

9x23 is the Mac Daddy of strong cases. I think .38 Super actually feeds better in a single stack since the 9x23 tapered case likes to nose down some."


Oh...snap!!!
All you need B&B is some competent pistolsmithing to soothe your aching needs.


LOL Chuck, the only guns I have seen with primer flow are usually production ones where no attempt to think about primer flow was made! My customs work pretty good..!

bladeandbarrel
08-08-2010, 08:02
"The big issue with 9x23 reliability is not chamber, per se, but primer flow.

Some guns really need a closely matched or longish firing pin to reduce flow.

You only see this once you reach 1350 fps or shoot some of the "stellar quality" Cor-Bon ammo.

9x23 is the Mac Daddy of strong cases. I think .38 Super actually feeds better in a single stack since the 9x23 tapered case likes to nose down some."


Oh...snap!!!
All you need B&B is some competent pistolsmithing to soothe your aching needs.

Oh yeah needs some chamber throat too to avoid pressure spiking!