Clays, U. Clays, or I. Clays? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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ColCol
08-10-2010, 17:16
I don't think Hodgdon could have made it more confusing. I read about guys favoring "Clays" for the .45 and since I've never used it, I decided to go to my trusty #9 Speer manual and compare to the #14 manual. The #9 doesn't list any sort of Clays for any weight bullet. Matter of fact, they don't even have data for the 185 gr JHP or 230 FMJ. So, I checked in the #14 manual and the only "Clays" listed is U.Clays which I assume to be Universal Clays.

Hodgdon's website shows three different powders with the name "Clays" in it. Clays, Universal Clays and International Clays although only two that they really specify for the .45 is either Clays or Universal Clays.

I'm about clayed out from writing this!! So, when I see Clays recommended for the 45ACP-which is which?

RustyFN
08-10-2010, 17:26
Wow I only thought there were two Clays. Never used any but if you are looking for a accurate very clean powder for 45 then WST is hard to beat.

tjpet
08-10-2010, 17:45
This is pretty simple.

There's three powders in the Clays family:

Clays
Universal Clays
International Clays

If your data calls for Clays it's the first one, otherwise it would say Universal Clays or International Clays. To me, and I'm no genius, it's a simple system. I don't understand how people get confused.

unclebob
08-10-2010, 17:53
If you really want too get technical there is also a Clay Dot. Made by Aliant.
Like it wasn't confusing enough.

GioaJack
08-10-2010, 18:06
Clays and Universal Clays have many pistol applications. International Clays is one of the finest 20 gauge powders out there but I'm not aware of any pistol application.

I regularly load 3.9 grains of Clays over a 200 grain SWC for one of my .45 loads. Have almost 14 pounds of it so I might as well use it up. It's also a great 12 gauge powder for skeet and trap loads.


Jack

ColCol
08-10-2010, 18:34
This is pretty simple.

There's three powders in the Clays family:

Clays
Universal Clays
International Clays

If your data calls for Clays it's the first one, otherwise it would say Universal Clays or International Clays. To me, and I'm no genius, it's a simple system. I don't understand how people get confused.

I know there's three powders in the family I just listed them. Speer's #14 list no clays at all nor does their #9 manual. They list "H.Universal" in the #14 which as I said, is an assumption for Universal clays-not plain "Clays". A fairly new manual like their #14 would list Clays if they deemed it good for the .45 and that was hence, my question about those who had recommended it.

I suppose one could use either the Clays or Universal Clays but not the International version. Maybe I'll just try the HS-6 as that's one I haven't used and seems to give the higher velocities in JHP's. I'm just trying to see what I need to look for at the gun show this weekend as I need something besides Unique and AA#5 to play around with.

tjpet
08-10-2010, 19:06
I know there's three powders in the family I just listed them. Speer's #14 list no clays at all nor does their #9 manual. They list "H.Universal" in the #14 which as I said, is an assumption for Universal clays-not plain "Clays". A fairly new manual like their #14 would list Clays if they deemed it good for the .45 and that was hence, my question about those who had recommended it.

I suppose one could use either the Clays or Universal Clays but not the International version. Maybe I'll just try the HS-6 as that's one I haven't used and seems to give the higher velocities in JHP's. I'm just trying to see what I need to look for at the gun show this weekend as I need something besides Unique and AA#5 to play around with.


I you're looking for something to play around with ditch the Clays, whichever version, and the HS-6 then go directly to WST. It's the absolute best powder for anything .45ACP barring +P rounds (HS-6 would be excellent for those).

Once you go WST you never go back.

RustyFN
08-10-2010, 20:42
I you're looking for something to play around with ditch the Clays, whichever version, and the HS-6 then go directly to WST. It's the absolute best powder for anything .45ACP barring +P rounds (HS-6 would be excellent for those).

Once you go WST you never go back.

Eggzactly

Colorado4Wheel
08-10-2010, 20:46
Screw it, pick a different powder if it's that confusing.

Parisite
08-10-2010, 20:47
Most data listing just say Universal for Universal Clays and Clays for Hodgdon Clays.
International Clays is a shotgun powder only. I've never seen any handgun data for it.

Clays is a LOT faster burning than Universal and is mostly listed with cast lead pistol data. Clays is a great powder for 38Spl and 45acp and other low pressure handgun calibers.
Universal is a lot more versatile powder however.

KB2MBC
08-10-2010, 20:53
Stay away from Clays International for pistol loads. I wanted to try Clays Universal and accidently bought International. After spending an hour looking for a .45 load, all I found was a thread where a guy talked to a Hodgdon tech and he said there was no load available for pistol. Crap.

Hoser
08-10-2010, 22:01
Not confusing at all.

When someone says Clays, I know they mean plain old Clays.

If they say Universal they mean Universal Clays. Same with international.

Even the Hodgon manual calls them Clays, International, Universal....

Clays is awesome in the 45 ACP. You wont find a cleaner powder other than maybe N310.

Universal blows in 45 but isnt bad in 9x19 and 40 as they are a much higher pressure round.

I have not used International in anything other than shotgun.

fredj338
08-11-2010, 11:20
I have to agree, marketing stupid IMO. Powders should have distinct names so there can be no confusion. Clays or Universal is how you see them noted in most loading manuals. I am not a fan of either. Clays is bulky, but also gets spikey @ the top end, so only useful to me in 45acp or 38sp target loads. Univesal works well in higher pressure rounds, 9mm, 40, midrange magnums, but other powders beat them both IMO. I prefer WST to Clays in any application & WSF or Unique to Universal.

Colorado4Wheel
08-11-2010, 12:58
Ironically, I have actually used Hodgon Universal. Never knew I was using such a odd powder. It did not like light loads in .38.

BossMaverick
08-11-2010, 13:00
Clays, clays, and more clays huh?

Clays in 45 = Good but a little smokey and a little pressure spikey
Universal Clays in 45 = Unburnt Powder (not enough pressure in the 45)
International Clays in 45 = Good luck finding load data

ColCol
08-11-2010, 17:41
One note of interest about this is I decided today to see what loads Hodgdon recommended on their website for the 200 gr and 230 gr JHP. A most interesting find proceeded. With this bullet(Speer) and Universal they recommend a starting load of 5.8 gr and a max of 6.2 gr. The Speer #14 manual I use indicated a starting load of 6.3 and a max of 7.0 with this same bullet. that's quite a difference. Speer's starting load is Hodgdon's max? Something not quite right about that.

Ironically, they were off just a few tenths of a grain with the HS-6 load with the same bullet. Universal is not even listed in the 185 gr load as I suppose it's for heavier bullets. The 230 gr bullet shows Hodgdon's start load of 5.1 gr of Universal and a max of 5.6...not a big difference. Speer's manual shows 5.5 and 6.3 gr. Again. Speer's starting load is Hodgdon's max.

Maybe I should just stick to Unique and AA#5. I think there a large discrepancy there between the manufacturer and Speer on this powder.

sourdough44
08-11-2010, 19:18
Universal.

cgarrett
08-11-2010, 20:13
i use clays, in my 45 it works great for lead bulletts. Before someone says it i have replaced my stock barrel with a match barrel to be able to shoot lead bullets. I load a 255 gn bullet, over 3.2 gns of clays. I shoot a lot of bowling pins and this load does a great job on the bowling pins. I shoots a 775fps!

Chris

fredj338
08-11-2010, 23:45
i use clays, in my 45 it works great for lead bulletts. Before someone says it i have replaced my stock barrel with a match barrel to be able to shoot lead bullets. I load a 255 gn bullet, over 3.2 gns of clays. I shoot a lot of bowling pins and this load does a great job on the bowling pins. I shoots a 775fps!

Chris
JMO, you are playing w/ fire using an uberfast like Clays w/ heavy bullet loads. You are probably pushing redline as it is. Clays gets very wierd when you push the top end.

cgarrett
08-12-2010, 12:47
here is my source for the clays powder I started at 2.9 gns and worked up. I have shot over 4000 rounds of this load.

Here is my load data for 250 and 255-grain .45 Colt bullets loaded into .45 ACP casings. For both bullet weights, the case mouth is crimped into the cannelure on the bullet to give the listed OAL. Getting these loads to cycle in a .45 auto requires going to a very light recoil spring, like 10 pounds. This is no surprise: check the listed velocities and you'll see we've basically turned the .45 ACP into a .455 Webley - the revolver which fires this cartridge, my friend the late Bob Shimek used to call "a gentle ol' punkin' thrower."

In my opinion the 250-grain RNFP is a better choice for "heavy metal" .45 ACP loads than the 255-grain LSWC, only because with the "fat" 255-grain bullet whether or not the action would go into battery, I found, became very dependent on a particular gun's barrel leade (the point just in front of the chamber where the lands angle in slightly). The 255 grain LSWCs chambered and extracted live rounds just fine in my Wilson 1911 and Nighthawk Custom Talon, wouldn't even allow the action to close on a Les Baer, and would chamber BUT loaded rounds were extremely difficult to extract from a Nowlin Match Classic. No such problems with the generously rounded 250-grain stuff.

I got away from using these loads because, for me at least, I felt they gave the gun's cycling a disagreeable glunk-glunk effect, and I alredy had so much muscle memory built up on a .45 with heavier loads I had a serious tendency to pull shots low as I overcompensated for (very light) recoil. Both those problems could, I'm sure, have been overcome with practice.

Anyway, here it is (the notation "Misc-1", "Fed-2", etc. refers to the type of brass I was using, and how many times it had been reloaded; "Fed 150" refers to the Federal Large Pistol Primer; the loads that don't list an ambient temp were shot before I began keeping track of that particular piece of data; with the exception of the Glock 21, all the guns mentioned are 5" barreled 1911s):

250/VihtaVuori N310

Les Baer Ultimate Master, .45 ACP (55 degrees F)
Laser-Cast 250-gr. RNFP/3.1-gr. N310/Misc-1/Fed 150/OAL 1.168" (20 rds)
AV: 671 HI: 687 LO: 653 ES: 33 SD: 8 PF: 167.8

Uselton Arms Classic National Match, .45 ACP (60 degrees F)
Laser-Cast 250-gr. RNFP/3.2-gr. N310/Fed-2/Fed 150/OAL 1.168" (10 rds)
AV: 650 HI: 661 LO: 642 ES: 19 SD: 5 PF: 165.8

Glock 21, .45 ACP (60 degrees F)
Laser-Cast 250-gr. RNFP/3.3-gr. N310/PMC-3/Fed 150/OAL 1.168" (20 rds)
AV: 691 HI: 707 LO: 654 ES: 53 SD: 12 PF: 172.8

Les Baer Ultimate Master, .45 ACP (60 degrees F)
Laser-Cast 250-gr. RNFP/3.3-gr. N310/PMC-3/Fed 150/OAL 1.168" (20 rds)
AV: 695 HI: 708 LO: 682 ES: 26 SD: 7 PF: 173.7

Glock 21, .45 ACP (50 degrees F)
Laser-Cast 250-gr. RNFP/3.4-gr. N310/Win-1/Fed 150/OAL 1.168" (20 rds)
AV: 654 HI: 671 LO: 618 ES: 53 SD: 13 PF: 163.6

Les Baer Ultimate Master, .45 ACP (50 degrees F)
Laser-Cast 250-gr. RNFP/3.4-gr. N310/Win-1/Fed 150/OAL 1.168" (20 rds)
AV: 667 HI: 683 LO: 651 ES: 31 SD: 8 PF: 166.8


255/VihtaVuori N310

Les Baer Ultimate Master, .45 ACP (50 degrees F)
Laser-Cast 255-gr. LSWC/3.4-gr. N310/Misc-1/Fed 150/OAL 1.168" (20 rds)
AV: 730 HI: 750 LO: 717 ES: 32 SD: 7 PF: 182.7


255/Hodgdon Clays

Nighthawk Talon, .45 ACP (55 degrees F)
Laser-Cast 255-gr. LSWC/3.2-gr. Clays/Fed-2/Fed 150/OAL 1.205"
AV: 685 HI: 706 LO: 663 ES: 43 SD: 10 PF: 174.8

Wilson Defensive Combat Pistol, .45 ACP
Laser-Cast 255-gr. LSWC/3.2-gr. Clays/Fed-1/Fed 150/OAL 1.205"
AV: 677 HI: 694 LO: 653 ES: 41 SD: 10 PF: 172.7

Wilson Defensive Combat Pistol, .45 ACP
Laser-Cast 255-gr. LSWC/3.2-gr. Clays/Fed-1/Fed 150/OAL 1.205"
AV: 682 HI: 692 LO: 667 ES: 25 SD: 7 PF: 174.1

Wilson Defensive Combat Pistol, .45 ACP
Laser-Cast 255-gr. LSWC/3.2-gr. Clays/Fed-1/Fed 150/OAL 1.205"
AV: 680 HI: 698 LO: 653 ES: 44 SD: 10 PF: 173.4