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chris in va
08-13-2010, 19:20
Just bought a new Tanfoglio Witness 45 and not really sure what's going on with accuracy issues.

http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/1863/p1000167y.jpg (http://img36.imageshack.us/i/p1000167y.jpg/)


Just to be very clear, the gun was RESTED during testing, at ~15 yards. Shot one hole, subsequent shots were aimed at that point.

Lee TL 230gr RN boolit, ALOX lubed, towel dropped
Unsized, measures .452
4.2 Bullseye (mild load)

I haven't slugged the barrel yet and need to do that. The top target is with my CZ 9mm, along with the left side of the lower target (so just disregard those sections please).

Bottom line, should I ditch the TL mold and get a normal one with sizing die, or is something else going on here?

GioaJack
08-13-2010, 20:03
Unless your barrel is way out of spec, (if it's a fairly new gun it probably isn't), the .452 is the proper size.

I'm not up on Lee moulds so I'm not sure what the TL stands for. (Tumble Lube maybe?) If so that isn't your problem either, from what I hear tumble lubed bullets produce very good accuracy.

Your Bullseye load is on the mild side and although BE is known for erratic SD's with very light loads you're above that level and it certainly wouldn't account for that extreme spread of flyers.

At 15 yards off a bench even a very bad load will certainly group better than either target. A good load at that range will keep everything in a group the size of a quarter... and that wouldn't be considered a good group.

If I was experiencing the same problem I believe I'd try two things. First I seek out someone who I knew was an excellent shot and have him replicate the exact same shooting conditions with the same ammunition.

If they shoot one hole groups you know it's not the ammunition. If they pattern instead of group it's either the ammo or the gun but since your top target has some of the same characteristics as the bottom target I would tent to rule out the gun.

If the other shooter produces acceptable results it's time to take a look at your shooting technique. All the things you already know but are very simple to forget. Sight picture, breath control. proper placement of gun on rest in exactly the same position every time, etc,. etc., etc.

One very common problem is trigger control. People read, or are told that proper trigger squeeze should always be accomplished with the tip, (pad) of the finger. That's true, if you're shooting a target gun with a several ounce trigger pull.

Service style guns don't have trigger breaks that even approach a target gun. An out of the box 1911 style gun is going to have a trigger that breaks somewhere around 2 1/2 to 5 pounds with varying creep, depending on the individual gun. Trying to get the trigger to break with the tip of your finger invariably results in movement, and patterns instead of groups.

The next time you shoot concentrate on your sight picture, stare at the front sight, forget the rest of the world exists. Squeeze the trigger with a bit more finger in the guard, not just the tip.

You mentioned that you fired on shot then used that as your aiming point. The problem with that is that when you see the front sight pass over that point your mind subconsciously says, 'NOW' and you jerk the trigger. (That's why you practice a lot, to learn not to do what comes naturally.)

Don't try to hold the gun perfectly steady, it can't be done, even from a rest. It will always make a small figure eight pattern over your aiming point. Don't fight it, you'll just miss bigger. As the gun makes it's movement, (it gets smaller and smaller with practice) just gently apply even pressure and let the gun surprise you when it fires.

Practice that technique enough and you'll soon get to the point where you'll have groups that you can cover with a fifty-cent piece off hand at 25 yards.

(Then again it could be bad ammo... but I don't think so.)


Jack

Colorado4Wheel
08-13-2010, 20:13
It's a new gun. Give yourself and and the gun some time to break in.

GioaJack
08-13-2010, 20:35
It's a new gun. Give yourself and and the gun some time to break in.


Apparently Little Stevie plans on being a Top Shot contestant next season... he's already practicing his excuses. :whistling:


Jack

unclebob
08-13-2010, 20:45
Since your shots are more or less vertical. I would say one of your problems is breath control.

Colorado4Wheel
08-13-2010, 21:10
Apparently Little Stevie plans on being a Top Shot contestant next season... he's already practicing his excuses. :whistling:


Jack

I was trying to say "nicely" that he got a Itilian gun and should probably give it a little time to break in. At least it wasn't Spanish.

ChrisJn
08-14-2010, 01:26
,...... and you'll soon get to the point where you'll have groups that you can cover with a fifty-cent piece off hand at 25 yards......
Jack

I've only ever seen that sort of accuracy once in my lifetime, the shooter was an Olympic trialist and English detective assigned as the protecton officer to the late Sir Harold Wilson, Prime Minister of England. I know it can be done.

sig357fan
08-14-2010, 02:06
Lee TL 230gr RN boolit, ALOX lubed, towel dropped
Unsized, measures .452
4.2 Bullseye (mild load)

Bottom line, should I ditch the TL mold and get a normal one with sizing die, or is something else going on here?

You didn't say if your mould is a 2 cavity or a 6 cavity.

I've linked to a thread below about the 6 cavity mould I'm using for 44 Mag.

Two things to check is if the as cast dia. is the correct dia. all around the bullet and weight variation.

if the dia. isn't correct all around the bullet, I think your fighting a losing battle

if its weight variation, weight the bullets, get several with in +/- 2 gr. and try again to see if they group better.

Good luck,

sig357gfan

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1221183

GioaJack
08-14-2010, 12:27
I'v only ever seen that sort of accuracry once in my lifetime and the shooter was an Olympic trialist and English detective assign as the protecton offic.er to the late Sir Harold Wilson Prime Minster of England .I know it can be done.


It is so refreshing to be exposed to the original Queen's english and hear tales from across the pond involving someone who earned the title, 'Sir'. Makes me feel a bit like James Bond. I may have to crack open the safe and stroke my Walther PP for a while whilst enjoying a spot of tea. (Okay, that's taking it too far... I'll pretend my Diet Pepsi is tea.)

As far as shooting groups offhand at 25 yards, (or 50), I would never suggest anything to someone that only a select few could ever accomplish or something that I haven't done. It's nothing more than a matter of proper equipment, proper loading techniques and practice. (Lots of practice.)

Shooting discipline has certainly changed over the years with more people becoming interested in various gaming activities and shying away from traditional NRA style bullseye shooting. Personally I think it's a shame. New shooters aren't exposed to the true fundamentals of shooting and never develop an appreciation of what handguns are capable of. I certainly don't want to denigrate any new shooters, they're a product of their shooting environment but it's really not impressive when we constantly read of 4 inch groups at 15 yards shot either with two hands or from a rest. That is not what real shooting is about... that's simply pumping down range. Unquestionably a lot of fun but sorely lacking in a skill level that one should aspire to.

I took a few minutes out of my hectic social schedule and dusted off the archives, (scrounged around in some of the old pistol boxes and files of targets) to look for an example of what the OP can reasonably expect with some practice.

This particular target was shot during a NRA match with a 6 inch Smith model 19. The rounds were my cast 148 grain bevel base wadcutters over 3 grains of Bullseye. I used the same load for 50 yard shooting also. (It's a good thing I joined this forum and learned that Bullseye is an excessively dirty powder, devoid of any socially redeeming values and should never be considered as a viable propellent. I shall dispose of my entire supply before the sun sets behind the mountains on this very day.)

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/GioaJack/IMG_4322.jpg?1281807763

The high flyer was the last shot and since I would never admit to any lack of skill suffice it to say that a hot ember fell off my cigarette and landed on my sandal clad foot just prior to trigger break and disturbed my concentration. (Should the need arise I can come up with a plethora of witnesses who will lie... er, swear to it.)

Needless to say this was not a winning target and even if the last shot had been in the X the best I could have done was third place based on string measurement. (Guys back then really knew how to shoot and I couldn't hold a candle to them.)

To some of our new shooters around here, don't handicap yourselves by believing wives tales that handguns lack the capability of being accurate... it's simply not true.

Taking your young eyes into account it it relatively easy to load up a 44 mag and hit car doors at 500 yards, (Elmer Keith got us started with that) and hitting clay birds consistently at a 100 yards with a 2 inch revolver. It just takes practice.


Jack

ChrisJn
08-14-2010, 13:32
It is so refreshing to be exposed to the original Queen's english and hear tales from across the pond involving someone who earned the title, 'Sir'. Makes me feel a bit like James Bond. I may have to crack open the safe and stroke my Walther PP for a while whilst enjoying a spot of tea. (Okay, that's taking it too far... I'll pretend my Diet Pepsi is tea.).....

Jack

Carried a Walther PP from '67 to '74 when the powers that be took them all away following the attempted kidnapping of HRH Princess Anne when the protection officer's gun jammed after first shot. Used to happen on the range all the time. Nothing wrong with the gun, just crappy cheapo government supplied ammunition.
P.S. I would prefer a pint of ale, not necessarily chilled!

norton
08-14-2010, 17:27
It is so refreshing to be exposed to the original Queen's english and hear tales from across the pond involving someone who earned the title, 'Sir'. Makes me feel a bit like James Bond. I may have to crack open the safe and stroke my Walther PP for a while whilst enjoying a spot of tea. (Okay, that's taking it too far... I'll pretend my Diet Pepsi is tea.)

As far as shooting groups offhand at 25 yards, (or 50), I would never suggest anything to someone that only a select few could ever accomplish or something that I haven't done. It's nothing more than a matter of proper equipment, proper loading techniques and practice. (Lots of practice.)

Shooting discipline has certainly changed over the years with more people becoming interested in various gaming activities and shying away from traditional NRA style bullseye shooting. Personally I think it's a shame. New shooters aren't exposed to the true fundamentals of shooting and never develop an appreciation of what handguns are capable of. I certainly don't want to denigrate any new shooters, they're a product of their shooting environment but it's really not impressive when we constantly read of 4 inch groups at 15 yards shot either with two hands or from a rest. That is not what real shooting is about... that's simply pumping down range. Unquestionably a lot of fun but sorely lacking in a skill level that one should aspire to.

I took a few minutes out of my hectic social schedule and dusted off the archives, (scrounged around in some of the old pistol boxes and files of targets) to look for an example of what the OP can reasonably expect with some practice.

This particular target was shot during a NRA match with a 6 inch Smith model 19. The rounds were my cast 148 grain bevel base wadcutters over 3 grains of Bullseye. I used the same load for 50 yard shooting also. (It's a good thing I joined this forum and learned that Bullseye is an excessively dirty powder, devoid of any socially redeeming values and should never be considered as a viable propellent. I shall dispose of my entire supply before the sun sets behind the mountains on this very day.)

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/GioaJack/IMG_4322.jpg?1281807763

The high flyer was the last shot and since I would never admit to any lack of skill suffice it to say that a hot ember fell off my cigarette and landed on my sandal clad foot just prior to trigger break and disturbed my concentration. (Should the need arise I can come up with a plethora of witnesses who will lie... er, swear to it.)

Needless to say this was not a winning target and even if the last shot had been in the X the best I could have done was third place based on string measurement. (Guys back then really knew how to shoot and I couldn't hold a candle to them.)

To some of our new shooters around here, don't handicap yourselves by believing wives tales that handguns lack the capability of being accurate... it's simply not true.

Taking your young eyes into account it it relatively easy to load up a 44 mag and hit car doors at 500 yards, (Elmer Keith got us started with that) and hitting clay birds consistently at a 100 yards with a 2 inch revolver. It just takes practice.


Jack

Come on Jack. You made those target holes with a drill press didn't you? :supergrin:

Olivers_AR
08-14-2010, 18:09
Wadcutters make a clean hole :cool: The outdoor range I went to this morning only has a 25 yard line for pistols, people that shoot indoors are challenged to put it on paper. If you learn to shoot at 25 yards, closer is even easier.

CaptJim
08-14-2010, 20:24
I too am another schooled by a Bullseye shooter many years ago. I never achived the level of precision that that gentleman had, not even close.

I can tell you this though, even for someone who has an inherent talent, true precision shooting takes a LOT of practice. I remember a statement by Jerry Miculek in an interview. He said he shot 50,000 rounds per year to maintain his profiency.

The average person has no desire to shoot that much for many reasons, but to achieve reasonable "target" and "combat" accuracy, we have to be willing to spend enough time with our firearms to know them intamately (and all their quirks).

I'll admit I could do better with more practice, but life's other challenges preclude but a certain amount of practice.

The point I am trying to make is that shooting well is like most other skills - you have to do a certain amount of it to achieve a particular level of expertise. Wether you want to be a Novice, Journeyman, Master Mechanic, or PHD is directly proportionate to your effort and physical abilities.

To make one other point, if one of us could try out the actual gun/ammo that Annie Oakley, Buffalo Bill, or even today's Jerry Miculek, it would be a very long time before we became "accurate" with it.

Sorry to run on, just my 2c worth,

Jim

chris in va
08-15-2010, 01:45
I'll try again sunday and see if my groups improve. At this point though I'm probably going to keep my Sig 220 after all.

glockaviator
08-15-2010, 01:47
Nice group, but you don't tell us how far away from the target you were. Are we supposed to KNOW that by looking at the target?

ChrisJn
08-15-2010, 04:32
Nice group, but you don't tell us how far away from the target you were. Are we supposed to KNOW that by looking at the target?

Says 25 yds on the target, 3 grains Bullseye, 148(5?)grain Bevel Base, 6"-19, Jan 12 '74!
http://londonphotography.biz/IMG_4322-2.jpg

WiskyT
08-15-2010, 06:09
Originally Posted by GioaJack
It is so refreshing to be exposed to the original Queen's english and hear tales from across the pond involving someone who earned the title, 'Sir'. Makes me feel a bit like James Bond. I may have to crack open the safe and stroke my Walther PP for a while whilst enjoying a spot of tea. (Okay, that's taking it too far... I'll pretend my Diet Pepsi is tea.).....

Jack

Jonathan Quayle Giacomo strikes again. Don't let Jack fool you, his ancestors didn't arrive on the Mayflower, they crawled out of the sea.

srd
08-15-2010, 08:48
Try slugging the barrel . Both of my Tanfo 9's like .357 when it comes to lead.

fredj338
08-15-2010, 13:56
Nice group, but you don't tell us how far away from the target you were. Are we supposed to KNOW that by looking at the target?

It's tough to diagnose ammo ability from shooter ability w/o some sort of benchmark. The top target looks ok, not winning a bullseye comp w/ but show decent trigger control. The bottom, I can only guess what is going on.
Try this. Use a known handload or factory load, shoot at a specific aiming point, ie, small 1/2" dot. Fire no more than 10rds, a shotgun type pattern is diff to access. Now you'll have a benchmark for what your gun is capable w/ in your hands. Then when shooting reloads, do the exact sme accuracy testing. You may have an ammo issue or it's you. I agree w/ Jack, to a point, good groups benched @ 15yds should be closer to 1" than 3", good gun, shooter & ammo. I've shot my share of 1/4 size groups offhand @ 15yds, but everything has to be just right, including any virginal sacrifices to the shooting gods.:wavey:
SOme have issues w/ the TL lead bullet designs & accuracy. The bullet should be a min of 0.452" in dia. Are you sizing the bullets or shooting them as cast? The as cast dia can vary form 0.450"-0.455" depending on mold accuracy, alloy & temp of alloy. You need to narrow down some of the variables, starting w/ your testing proceedures. The lube can affect accuracy as well as powder choice. Not all powder/bullet combos work in all guns. I had a finicky BHP tha would not shoot lead bullets o/ W231. I changed to Unique & groups shrank by 1/2.

voodoomanx
08-15-2010, 14:41
Just bought a new Tanfoglio Witness 45 and not really sure what's going on with accuracy issues.

http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/1863/p1000167y.jpg (http://img36.imageshack.us/i/p1000167y.jpg/)


Just to be very clear, the gun was RESTED during testing, at ~15 yards. Shot one hole, subsequent shots were aimed at that point.

Lee TL 230gr RN boolit, ALOX lubed, towel dropped
Unsized, measures .452
4.2 Bullseye (mild load)

I haven't slugged the barrel yet and need to do that. The top target is with my CZ 9mm, along with the left side of the lower target (so just disregard those sections please).

Bottom line, should I ditch the TL mold and get a normal one with sizing die, or is something else going on here?

My wife's CZ-75 Compact shoots much much better groups at 15yrds offhand. Based on those two targets it's hard to blame the ammo. These groups aren't out of a mechanical rest are they? You say they were RESTED, but do you mean rested mag on the bench?

Colorado4Wheel
08-15-2010, 16:27
No "good" aiming point.
New gun to shooter.
New gun
New untested ammo.

I wouldn't blame the gun till you have at least 200rds through it.

Sonnytoo
08-25-2010, 09:36
Shooting discipline has certainly changed over the years with more people becoming interested in various gaming activities and shying away from traditional NRA style bullseye shooting.
I took a few minutes out of my hectic social schedule and dusted off the archives, (scrounged around in some of the old pistol boxes and files of targets) to look for an example of what the OP can reasonably expect with some practice.

To some of our new shooters around here, don't handicap yourselves by believing wives tales that handguns lack the capability of being accurate... it's simply not true.

Jack

Of course, Jack, you were using an accurate revolver, not these striker-fired plastic jobs that are the beans today. Nice target, by the way. I once shot in a Michigan Championship Match with Harry Reeves. The folks that don't know his name need not bother to find out. He was a great one, though. I have also spent a full day with Jerry Miculek. Another real gentleman, but a man that puts a different spin on shooting. Man, can he shoot plates!
I don't have any targets from the old days. Just as well. I did shoot Master class way back then...in some basement in Flint, Michigan...50-foot targets.
A different way of life.
It's all good. I'm enjoying my plastic also, along with my 1911's.
Sonnytoo