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xfarfuldog
08-17-2010, 09:13
My apologies if this has already been covered. I have several handguns and 223 and 308 rifles. I do not have a tactical shotgun. I am a police firearms instructor and have always used the 870 police model. I love the 870 but have seen that the autos are faster.

I am not saying that price is no object but I tend to buy guns on the higher end of the scale. Which shotgun would be best when the feces hit the rotating oscillator?? I am considering the Saiga. 870, Remington 1100 (or is it 1187) tactical and the Benelli M4. I would like feedback from people who own or have shot the above. I am not interested in a brand X just because it cheaper or looks like or functions like the above.

Remember the zombies are coming.

Thanks.

aippi
08-17-2010, 11:33
Your an LE firarms Instructor who has been using the best duty shotgun around and instructing other Officers in how to use it. You're already proficient with a pump and it would be beyond foolish to switch to a semi-auto for as you know, you are going to react and do in the S--T what you do in training. It would also be foolish to switch from the 870 for the the same reason and of course since it the best pump out there.

this always starts a mess of post from cilvian types who don't understand shotguns or fighting with one but man I would never trust my life to any semi-auto shotgun. Gas semi's have to been fired from a perfect solid stance or they will not cycle because the energy will not compress the action spring to complete the cycling action. Like limp wristing a semi-auto handgun. Well you don't get to pick "Perfect Solid Stances" in a gun fight. They also have to have a perfect load to cycle. You are not just staking your life on the weapon but that the ammo is perfect. If that round is just a little short of powder it will not cycle the action. Add the fact of foul powder, dirty gas ports, barrel seal issues, gas pistons, weak action springs and every dang thing else that Mr. Murphy can mess with and these are worst weapons to take into a fight.

Now the wantabees and tact-fool crowd can jump in with all their mess but anyone who understands these weapons and how they would be used in a fight will tell you to stick with a pump and stick with the one you know best which is the 870. If your Department had Mossbergs and that is what you have been trained on and instruct on I would tell you to stay with that.

mixflip
08-17-2010, 11:44
You instruct folks on the 870? I'd just stick with an 870 with tons of skill to back it up. Most folks put very little time and effort into developing shotgun skills.

If your dept. looks to be getting semi-autos in the future, most likely they will be going with the Benelli M4. (probably since the USMC has already officially adopted it? Depts love to copy the military. Hence the M4 in cruisers now)

HexHead
08-17-2010, 11:53
Your an LE firarms Instructor who has been using the best duty shotgun around and instructing other Officers in how to use it. You're already proficient with a pump and it would be beyond foolish to switch to a semi-auto for as you know, you are going to react and do in the S--T what you do in training. It would also be foolish to switch from the 870 for the the same reason and of course since it the best pump out there.

this always starts a mess of post from cilvian types who don't understand shotguns or fighting with one but man I would never trust my life to any semi-auto shotgun. Gas semi's have to been fired from a perfect solid stance or they will not cycle because the energy will not compress the action spring to complete the cycling action. Like limp wristing a semi-auto handgun. Well you don't get to pick "Perfect Solid Stances" in a gun fight. They also have to have a perfect load to cycle. You are not just staking your life on the weapon but that the ammo is perfect. If that round is just a little short of powder it will not cycle the action. Add the fact of foul powder, dirty gas ports, barrel seal issues, gas pistons, weak action springs and every dang thing else that Mr. Murphy can mess with and these are worst weapons to take into a fight.

Now the wantabees and tact-fool crowd can jump in with all their mess but anyone who understands these weapons and how they would be used in a fight will tell you to stick with a pump and stick with the one you know best which is the 870. If your Department had Mossbergs and that is what you have been trained on and instruct on I would tell you to stay with that.

While I completely agree it's best to use what you train with, the fact that the USMC has adopted the Benelli semi-auto pretty much throws the rest of your argument out the window.

O'DubhGhaill
08-17-2010, 13:04
I would like to hear from Marines who have used the issued semi-auto combat shotgun, the M4, in training and combat, persons who must trust the system (whether they'd like to or not?) with their lives and who, if they happen to prefer that system, would not fit aippi's profile above.

Nonetheless, I agree with aippi and others in suggesting the OP stick with the Remington 870, a reknowned tactical shotgun and one the OP knows too well to foray into the unknown. I used a Mossy 500/590 in service from time to time and would prefer it to this day if still in and given a choice. Even though times change, tech advances, and I generally try to keep an open mind given that, I would not trust any semi-auto the way I do my Mossy pumps when it mattered.

Teecher45
08-18-2010, 00:14
Bet you could take it apart, clean it and put it back together with your eyes closed. You know the weapon, stick with it.
Oh, yeah, it also works. It works very well.

vafish
08-18-2010, 07:36
I have a good buddy that is a SWAT officer and his department issues patrol officers their choice of an M4 or a Benelli 14" entry gun (not sure of the model). He loves his Benelli and the few times I've got to shoot it was totally reliable.

The only 1100's and 1187's I've shot have been the sporting models. They worked very well.

But as has been already pointed out by numerous people. You are trained with the 870. You use the 870 for work. You train others to use the 870.

The 870 is the shotgun you should buy.

Later on if you have money burning a hole in your pocket pick up one of the semi autos as a play toy.

GenoTac Ind.
08-18-2010, 09:14
Sbs 14" 870...

xfarfuldog
08-18-2010, 15:08
Thanks for all of your input. I went to shotgun instructors school at OPOTA when we had those #^*!! Fairmont police cruisers. We had changed all of our 870's to pistol grip only. After the first day I borrowed a full stock model.

I agree that since all of my training and experience has been with the 870 it should be the obvious choice. I like the new autos but agree that the 870 overall is probably the best pick.

Been watching to much TV.

Thanks,

BobTorre
08-18-2010, 15:23
Winchester SX3 for yourstruly

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pqtg81aRILM

KiloXray
08-18-2010, 18:10
I think it ridiculous to say that a person cannot be proficient with multiple platforms. Learn it, become proficient with it.

To those of you who say otherwise. Are you proficient with only ONE handgun platform? ( If yes, then I'm guessing 1911's) What happens when a department changes their duty weapons? Are all of those officers just screwed? I don't think so. I think they learn the new weapon and become proficient with it. Are they still proficient with their old platform as well? Id put a paycheck on it. Soldiers in the field are REGULARLY trained and proficient with multiple platforms. Happens everyday.

Id even go so far as to say, that I think it is a GOOD thing to be proficient with multiple platforms. It makes you more versatile. Gives you options. Options are good.

If you want a semi, buy a semi. Use it. Become proficient with it. Enjoy.

KX

David Armstrong
08-19-2010, 11:10
I think it ridiculous to say that a person cannot be proficient with multiple platforms.
I don't see anyone saying you cannot be proficient with multiple platforms. The issue is more if it is worth the investment of resources to become proficient with multiple platforms or if those resources are better invested elsewhere.
What happens when a department changes their duty weapons? Are all of those officers just screwed?
No, the department usually spends time and money for them to learn the new platform. As long as someone else is footing the bill, bring on the new stuff!
Soldiers in the field are REGULARLY trained and proficient with multiple platforms. Happens everyday.
Soldiers, and to some extent LE, aren't quite the same as an individual. When one is being trained by the organization as part of the job it is quite a bit different from learning on your own at your own expense.

DPris
08-19-2010, 12:12
After having worked with several semi-autos, including the Benelli M4, I've contuded I'll stick with the 870.

Way too often, the rapid firing capability of the semi-auto is the tip of the iceberg that makes it look so appealing.
People tend to not look at what's below the surface.

The M4, and others, have a more complicated manual of arms.
They include more steps in operation, and they can only be loaded (and reloaded or topped off) with the action in certain conditions.

They have to be cocked to release the lifter to load the magazine.
They require the action be in a specific position for loading.
They use a bolt release mechanism, adding a step in operation.
They may or may not cycle the mag dry by manual manipulation if desired without going through a specific drill. The new Beretta Storm semi won't feed the next round from the mag unless the trigger's pulled first, for example.
They are ammo sensitive.

Contrast all of that with the utter simplicity of the 870, which could not care less whether it's cocked or uncocked, or its action is open or closed, in loading, reloading, and/or topping up the magazine.
Its mag can be emptied quickly by manual cycling without pulling the trigger and the only "condition" or "position" you need to worry about in doing so is to keep the slide lock lever depressed while you're doing it (safety ON would be good, but not required).

Rugged simplicity and zero sensitivity to ammunition (of the proper length) make this gun very easy to operate in stressful situations.
If you work the street & teach it to cops, you should understand simple & you should understand stressful situations.

Yes, it's possible to learn the semi-auto's quirks & do quite well with them on the range, but on the street I'm a firm believer in SIMPLE.

The 870 is one of the best defensive shotgun platforms you can find.
I can load it, run it, unload it, and pretty much all I have to worry about is not short-stroking it. I don't have to worry about whether it's cocked or not to load, how to get it into an empty-chamber, uncocked, full-mag carry state (the Beretta Storm, again, requires you cock the action before loading the mag, which means you either carry with a loaded & cocked chamber, an unloaded & cocked chamber, or you have to pull the trigger on an empty chamber after you've loaded the mag, something I don't want to mess with).

There's also a world of accessories for the 870, including magazine extensions, sights, and stock options, to adapt to your own physique & needs.
The 870 also couldn't care less about how long its barrel is to work reliably. For most people, may not be an issue, but if you want or need a 12 or 14-incher the semi-autos are nowhere near as forgiving in reliability. The 870's pump will go on all day long with a 12-incher, going that short with most semi-autos will tend to produce a gun that has to be manually cycled between shots.

And, using any branch of the military as justification of a particular platform is unrealistic.
The guys who have to carry the guns are not the guys who chose the guns, and I've heard of some disatisfaction with the M4 in military use.
Other branches don't buy it.

If you're very familiar with the 870, look beyond the rapid fire of a semi, and realistically evaluate whether or not what's below the waterline makes it worthwhile for you.

Denis

KiloXray
08-19-2010, 20:30
I don't see anyone saying you cannot be proficient with multiple platforms. The issue is more if it is worth the investment of resources to become proficient with multiple platforms or if those resources are better invested elsewhere.

No, the department usually spends time and money for them to learn the new platform. As long as someone else is footing the bill, bring on the new stuff!

Soldiers, and to some extent LE, aren't quite the same as an individual. When one is being trained by the organization as part of the job it is quite a bit different from learning on your own at your own expense.

You're correct, nobody specifically stated that. It IS however, insinuated by several posts.

I realize the dept spends money and time to train them, and this is a very valid point. It seems to me though that the OP is not a rookie, he knows what is involved with learning a new platform. Just seems like evryone wants to talk him out of it.

I also agree that is WAY better to shoot on someone elses dollar :cool:.

gj047
08-25-2010, 09:18
I have a FN SLP and the gun shoot great. I am a police firearms instructor as well with quite of bit of experience with the Remington 870. The FN requires a 3dram 1 1/8oz load for bird shot and full velocity buckshot such as fed le12700. Remington reduced recoil slugs run fine. I also have experience with the benelli M2 entry guns. They require similar loads. All shotguns including the 870 have their own issues to overcome. If your looking for a semi stick with FN or Benelli.

rallyrs01
08-25-2010, 14:42
As an avid duck hunter who puts shotguns through a lot and have seen 870's lock up, freeze up, misfeed I say buy whatever gives you that warm fuzzy feeling and become proficient with it. No weapon is perfect Having said all that. Get the Benelli!!

ET.
08-25-2010, 20:08
I own a tactical 870. I'm going to recommend that one even though you are partial to the semi's. I believe if the shtf I want a shotgun that has proven itself to be extremely reliable & durable.