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SCmasterblaster
08-19-2010, 12:27
Now this is coming from someone who has owned only one Glock handgun, a G17 9x19 for 21 years.

Question:

Why has there been over 100 years of fussing with handgun calibers when the 9mm bullets are trying very hard to be a larger-diameter intruder into a felonious body by having a hollow point and is driven at 1200 or so FPS. Of course, such a bullet is designed to expand and deccelerate by several hundredths of inches and several hundred FPS. In other words, such 9mm bullets want to end up being an 11mm bullet at 900 or so FPS. That is the designed intent anyway. Now bullet expansion in soft primate tissue is not 100% reliable, so the question is:

Was John Browning a pure genious when he invented the .45 ACP cartridge over 100 years ago? A .45 ACP 185-200gr JHP bullet easily accomplishes what the 9mms have been trying to do for over a century, that is, being a .45-caliber bullet tearing through soft tissue (and hard tissue, for that matter), at 900 or so FPS.

Why am I not surprised to see that more and more LEO agencies are moving from the 9mm up to .40 and .45?

Should the 9x19 cartridge be retired?

vafish
08-19-2010, 13:11
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n75/vafish/Funny/OhNo.jpg

Gee we haven't had a good 9MM vs .45 debate in at least a week.

fredj338
08-19-2010, 13:24
Now this is coming from someone who has owned only one Glock handgun, a G17 9x19 for 21 years.

Question:

Why has there been over 100 years of fussing with handgun calibers when the 9mm bullets are trying very hard to be a larger-diameter intruder into a felonious body by having a hollow point and is driven at 1200 or so FPS. Of course, such a bullet is designed to expand and deccelerate by several hundredths of inches and several hundred FPS. In other words, such 9mm bullets want to end up being an 11mm bullet at 900 or so FPS. That is the designed intent anyway. Now bullet expansion in soft primate tissue is not 100% reliable, so the question is:

Was John Browning a pure genious when he invented the .45 ACP cartridge over 100 years ago? A .45 ACP 185-200gr JHP bullet easily accomplishes what the 9mms have been trying to do for over a century, that is, being a .45-caliber bullet tearing through soft tissue (and hard tissue, for that matter), at 900 or so FPS.

Why am I not surprised to see that more and more LEO agencies are moving from the 9mm up to .40 and .45?

Should the 9x19 cartridge be retired?
Well, not genious, he designed what he was asked to; a 45cal semiauto handgun for the military. Consider at the time, all bullets were pretty much solid lead or FMJ, reliable HP were not really available & the mil was stuck w/ FMJ anyway. So it makes sense to use as large a bullet as possible to make as large a hole as possible. The handgun has always been a secondary weapon to the mil so round count was not as important.
With todays mdern JHP designs, you can get a 45 caliber + hole w/ a smaller caliber weapon that holds more of those rounds & has less recoil. The primary reason the 9mm is so popular, low recoil & lots of bullets. The primary reason there has never been a large move to the 45acp, the guns are too large for smaller LEO & the recoil is more than the avg LEO can master. Geeze, look how bad they shoot w/ a 9mm or 40.:dunno:

hackinpeat
08-19-2010, 13:26
Make .45 as cheap as 9mm and I'll switch over. Until then, shush!

167
08-20-2010, 03:55
Make .45 as cheap as 9mm and I'll switch over. Until then, shush!


+1 to that

Jim S.
08-22-2010, 11:24
When the 45acp was developed the military had experienced a failure of performance with their then staple sidearm caliber 38 (special?).
A hit at center mass with a 9mm is better than a miss with a 45.
A hit with a 45 is better than a miss with 9mm.
See where I'm going with this?
Modern hollow point ammunition levels the playing field greatly.
But it still depends on the end user to do his part.
Hit what you are aiming at and perferably several times quickly.

Glock19Fan
08-22-2010, 17:14
When the 45acp was developed the military had experienced a failure of performance with their then staple sidearm caliber 38 (special?).
.

If I remember correctly, it was either the .38SW or .38 Long Colt. Whichever it was, velocities were in the 600-700 FPS range from a 4 inch barrel. So I dont believe it was the caliber that was necessarily the problem, but rather the poor energy levels.

fredj338
08-22-2010, 17:42
If I remember correctly, it was either the .38SW or .38 Long Colt. Whichever it was, velocities were in the 600-700 FPS range from a 4 inch barrel. So I dont believe it was the caliber that was necessarily the problem, but rather the poor energy levels.

The std 38sp w/ a 158grLRN @ 800fps isn't giving you much more. That was the std LE load back in the day, zipped right through any animate object. Then they went to LSWC to help "stopping" ability, or at least slow the bulelts exit from the BG's body. Then JHP came onto the scene & smaller caliber/high vel rounds are here to stay.