Well I never. [Archive] - Glock Talk

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PBKing
08-21-2010, 08:05
You never hear anyone using other brands bashing Dillon. How come so much hate coming from the blue.
After all they made fine boolits before dillon.
Seriously, I would like a 1050. From my perspective any other dillon model or other brand will meet each and every others needs.
If I go blue does the arrogant attitude come with the warranty?

Lets get along. We need to appreciate and respect the experience behind the handle.
It is a tool, like a hammer. It is more critical to know where to hit than the brand of the hammer.

Colorado4Wheel
08-21-2010, 08:12
Not the way I see it at all. A little history is in order.

Hornady has only been making a good press for the last 3 years at the most. Before that it wouldn't even load 9mm ammo reliably. They even had a disclaimer on the LnL website telling people to not modify the wire. So when people claimed the LnL was just as good as the Blue it was a little hard to not say something.

Now things are a little different. Hornady has fixed the press and it does work as advertised. People still remember the past and it's hard for them to let go of the past. Now it's more of a Ford vs Chevy thing. Before they really could only be compared favorable IF you loaded the calibers the LnL liked.

PBKing
08-21-2010, 08:23
[QUOTE=Colorado4Wheel;15844627]Not the way I see it at all. A little history is in order.QUOTE]


Your posts suggest little history?

Funny, your the first to eat feet. I recall you like it non sugar coated.

George Tucker
08-21-2010, 08:25
The Customer Service at Dillon is unequiled, plus they make a good product, i have used Dillon for 20 yrs, before that i used Star Reloaders, Dillon has always been there when i need them, enough said, and i have been Reloading for 50 yrs, George.

AZBru88
08-21-2010, 08:35
I've been loading on Dillon's for years. I have loaded over 55K of 44 mag and 10mm on one press. Close to 100+K on all 4 of my Dillon's. Reliable, I've had 3 minor breakdowns, clips and something else (years ago my old mind can't remember). Called Dillon, no questions ask, parts arrived the next day in 2 cases, one called Friday afternoon, stuff arrived Monday. Again no charge, and no BS.
If you want something that just plain works, Dillon is the answer. Personally I like the 550B better then the others. Easy loading rate at 400+ an hour. Thats drinking my coffee, checking every round. 600 is possible, but I don't like to work that hard any more.

"If I go blue does the arrogant attitude come with the warranty?"

Not sure what you mean. I think most people that own Dillon's love the way they work, and work.
Some people try to save a buck when they buy a progressive press. Many have gone back to Dillon so I'm sure there are some hard feelings involved.
No one needs a Dillon to load on. Just saw a program showing some guy loading rounds over in the sandbox, with a pair of pliers and a hammer on top of a rock!
As to getting along I think this reloading forum is full of free thinking fun people that love to give each other a hard time. Grow a thick skin and join in on the fun!:supergrin:

n2extrm
08-21-2010, 08:42
I never faulted anyone for what they like. I have posted here several times that a LNL is a good choice, and comparable to the 650. I like the 650 more then the LNL. Thats an opinion of taste like vanilla or chocolate. I use a Rock Chucker to load almost all of my rifle stuff. It is good solid press and is easier for me to pull cases and reinsert them there then on the 550 or 650. I prime them all charge off the press etc, so it makes more sense to leave the progressive set up for pistol stuff I need more of. I think we all (for the most part) enjoy ribbing eachother over red and blue.

As for the tool part of it, yes the guy behind the tool is more important then the tool for the most part. But it is easier to drive a 10" spike with a sledge hammer then a 2 ounce tack hammer.

PBKing
08-21-2010, 08:44
!:supergrin:

Lets be clear. No one is questioning the quality or service of any company. All American manufactures get my money...Dillon being one of the best.
The issue is the bashing down of anything that aint blue. It is not productive.

AZBru88
08-21-2010, 08:50
Lets be clear about what I said!:supergrin:

As to getting along I think this reloading forum is full of free thinking fun people that love to give each other a hard time. Grow a thick skin and join in on the fun!:supergrin:

Because we like to give each other grief in a fun way. You take that as bashing! Like I said grow a thick skin and join the fun! Not really hard to understand!

geminicricket
08-21-2010, 08:53
I'm pretty sure the arrogant attitude comes without the Dillon press.
You don't get the hot chick, either.

n2extrm
08-21-2010, 09:00
Lets be clear about what I said!:supergrin:



Because we like to give each other grief in a fun way. You take that as bashing! Like I said grow a thick skin and join the fun! Not really hard to understand!


Exactly! :wavey:

My Dillon has been called boat anchor to smurf poop! I love it! This place is fun and you get good info. Who cares if you think I spent too much for a boat anchor and I don't own a boat. :dunno:

PBKing
08-21-2010, 09:00
I'm pretty sure the arrogant attitude comes without the Dillon press.
You don't get the hot chick, either.

Thanks for the heads up...good to know

ilgunguygt
08-21-2010, 09:01
Simply put, when people pay more for an item, they want to believe that it is superior in any way. They also like to defend thier position, usually strongly. Same thing with people that drive BMWs, etc.

Bello
08-21-2010, 09:03
i like lee presses classic cast but one day i will buy a dillon to see the hype but i kinda like single stage as of now

PBKing
08-21-2010, 09:03
Oh, I got thick skin. I just dont want to end up ...Just Thick

AZBru88
08-21-2010, 09:13
Oh, I got thick skin. I just dont want to end up ...Just Thick

PB for wanting to "get along" you sure make some odd statements! Are you here trolling, or defending some press, or what? I guess I'm not following what you want out of this thread. You started it by saying lets get along. But your first reply bash Colorado4Wheel for giving you what he thinks is the historical reason people like Dillon and not other progressive presses. What are you after? Let us know, maybe we can answer you! Maybe I'm the one that thick?:rofl:

PBKing
08-21-2010, 09:52
PB for wanting to "get along" you sure make some odd statements! Are you here trolling, or defending some press, or what? I guess I'm not following what you want out of this thread. You started it by saying lets get along. But your first reply bash Colorado4Wheel for giving you what he thinks is the historical reason people like Dillon and not other progressive presses. What are you after? Let us know, maybe we can answer you! Maybe I'm the one that thick?:rofl:

Nothing personal and certainly nothing directed towards you.

After I pushed the Submit Reply button I could hear the sound of blue chips falling off the shoulders of owners nationwide. No offence. Dillon makes some of the best equipment on the planet. Again I am considering 3 dedicated 1050's for our range.
Fact is the 1050's are in stone anyway....why go for anything less than what meets your needs.
I just dont want to turn into a .... Blue Drool Zombie

AZBru88
08-21-2010, 09:58
Nothing personal and certainly nothing directed towards you.

After I pushed the Submit Reply button I could hear the sound of blue chips falling off the shoulders of owners nationwide. No offence. Dillon makes some of the best equipment on the planet. Again I am considering 3 dedicated 1050's for our range.

No offense taken here...just trying to figure out what you want answered. 1050's are great I have a buddy that has 8 of them, loves them. I don't need that kind of speed, plus the 1050's are commercial and don't carry the same warranty.

GioaJack
08-21-2010, 10:12
If we couldn't :poke: each other over the equipment we use what fun would this place be and what would we talk about, reloading? Hell, you can teach a monkey to load... give him enough time and he'll learn by himself. (I speak from personal experience, and yes, I still have all my fingers... no tail however.)

I started out loading metallic cartridges with the Ideal Lyman tong tool, (which is enjoying retirement on a shelf in the room) and over the years have owned and used every permutation of press ever made; single stage, straight line C & H progressive, Star, Dillon, Hornady LNL, you name it, I've spent money on it. Bottom line, they all do what they're supposed to do... produce ammo. Some faster and easier than others but none produce a superior product over the others.

I replaced my Stars with two Dillons almost 20 years ago and never had a complaint. I added two LNL's over the last year and a half and lo and behold... no complaints. Is one better than the other... no. They're just different. Do I like using one over the other? Yes, I like the LNL but not because they're better machines the ergonomics simply meet my physical limitations better. I still use the Dillons, a lot, I just can't use them as long at each session. Not the machine's fault.

The only comment that I take exception with every once in a while is concerning the Dillon warranty. There is a misconception that because Dillon has an excellent warranty and customer service that there is no way anyone else could meet that bar of excellence. Based on my experience and others who have commented on the subject, Hornady is every bit as good if not getting the slightest nod to being better for the simple fact that they are playing catch-up and trying to build a top notch reputation.

(When I bought my second case feeder there were two small parts missing out of the factory sealed box, maybe $20 or $25 worth of parts. I called them that afternoon and was told they would overnight the parts. The next morning I opened the UPS delivery... they had sent me a complete machine minus the huge feed bowl and tubular bar. How do you ask for more than that? While Dillon offer great service they certainly do not hold a monopoly.)

So, if you buy a press, be it Lee, Dillon, Hornady or whatever and choose to inform us of your purchase please know that you will get :poke:... what else do we have to do?


Jack

shotgunred
08-21-2010, 10:18
You never hear anyone using other brands bashing Dillon. How come so much hate coming from the blue.
After all they made fine boolits before dillon.
Not true a lot of people bash Dillon.

I don't bash the lnl and even recommend them as a valid choice.
When it comes to lee on the other hand I will bash away. When they finally make a good progressive press I will admit it. until then I will try to steer people to a better choice. Lee has been in business since 1958. they could build and sell a press that rivals Dillon and lnl if they wanted to!.
Instead they have decided to be the value line. As such they cut corners to be the cheapest. The Lee family apparently doesn't know the difference between cheap and value.

John Lee
If you like to own the best, then treat yourself to the Lee Classic Turret. The finest reloading system made.
If or when Lee makes this statement true instead of marketing fluff it will benefit the whole reloading community.

ilgunguygt
08-21-2010, 10:52
Not true a lot of people bash Dillon.

I don't bash the lnl and even recommend them as a valid choice.
When it comes to lee on the other hand I will bash away. When they finally make a good progressive press I will admit it. until then I will try to steer people to a better choice. Lee has been in business since 1958. they could build and sell a press that rivals Dillon and lnl if they wanted to!.
Instead they have decided to be the value line. As such they cut corners to be the cheapest. The Lee family apparently doesn't know the difference between cheap and value.

John Lee

If or when Lee makes this statement true instead of marketing fluff it will benefit the whole reloading community.
Ah, managed to get a little stick in on Lee, huh? Go figure. i have yet to get a bad Lee product. Call it budget, call it cheap, whatever. Lee has good customer service, but I have never used it, because my Lee equipment hasnt failed.

Hoser
08-21-2010, 11:01
If someone wants to load ammo using a little scoop and a hammer, more power to them.

However I will be one of the first people in line to say "Get a Dillon."

Another reason why I recommend Dillon so often is that I use them for all my metallic progressive reloading. Hard for me to recommend or slam something I have no experience with.

Just remember when someone does not say that brand XXX press is gods gift to reloading, they are not saying it sucks.

WiskyT
08-21-2010, 11:05
Not true a lot of people bash Dillon.

I don't bash the lnl and even recommend them as a valid choice.
When it comes to lee on the other hand I will bash away. When they finally make a good progressive press I will admit it. until then I will try to steer people to a better choice. Lee has been in business since 1958. they could build and sell a press that rivals Dillon and lnl if they wanted to!.
Instead they have decided to be the value line. As such they cut corners to be the cheapest. The Lee family apparently doesn't know the difference between cheap and value.

John Lee

If or when Lee makes this statement true instead of marketing fluff it will benefit the whole reloading community.

Lee made a good progressive in 1986, when I got my Pro1000. I paid $115.00 complete with dies from Midway back when they had free shipping and their catalogue was a little newsprint booklet. I've been loading with it for all this time. Parts have worn and been replaced, but I get 300 rounds an hour and it will never cost as much as the cheapest Dillon, no matter how many parts wear out on it.

Dillon is good stuff. It's better, and more expensive, than it needs to be. It's like using Snap-on tools to change your oil. Craftsman will do just fine and cost 1/3 as much.

The BMW was a good analogy. A 5 series standard BMW doesn't do anything that a V6 Accord won't do, it just costs more. But some people like their BMW's. That's fine. I'll pay my mortgage off and drive the Honda. As long as they don't suggest for one minute that their car is a better deal than mine, especially if they're wearing BMW sunglasses, we'll get along fine.

PBKing
08-21-2010, 11:08
just remember when someone does not say that brand xxx press is gods gift to reloading, they are not saying it sucks.

oy!!!!!

El_Ron1
08-21-2010, 11:22
http://i35.tinypic.com/xtkw.jpg

WiskyT
08-21-2010, 11:24
http://i35.tinypic.com/xtkw.jpg

They'll line up for it, at $50.00.

PBKing
08-21-2010, 11:29
Hilarious!!!!

Colorado4Wheel
08-21-2010, 13:18
Your posts suggest little history?

Funny, your the first to eat feet. I recall you like it non sugar coated.

I don't get that at all. Makes no sence to me. Seeing how I recommend Lee and Hornady products.

ron59
08-21-2010, 13:46
You never hear anyone using other brands bashing Dillon. How come so much hate coming from the blue.
After all they made fine boolits before dillon.
Seriously, I would like a 1050. From my perspective any other dillon model or other brand will meet each and every others needs.
If I go blue does the arrogant attitude come with the warranty?

Lets get along. We need to appreciate and respect the experience behind the handle.
It is a tool, like a hammer. It is more critical to know where to hit than the brand of the hammer.

You say "Lets get along", but your tone and words don't indicate you want to do it. Every post you've made in this thread has been disrespectful.

I have a Dillon, and am VERY glad I made that choice. I don't "hate" the other brands, if I didn't have my Dillon I believe I'd be happy with a Hornady LNL.

I don't have first person experience with Lee, I just go by what I read. Someone whose opinion I value is Steve's (Colorado4Wheel), and he had a Classic Turret at one point. While he says he wish he still had it... I bet if pushed to choose ONLY ONE, he'd choose his Dillon over the Lee any day. He also mentions that the Lee scale is crap. I don't think he has any reason to lie or unfairly/unduly bash Lee, he doesn't seem to be that kind of person.

Someone else mentioned that Lee positions themselves as the "value price point", or something to that effect. I learned a LONG time ago that "you get what you pay for". If you cheap out on your purchase, it can come back to haunt you.

For me... it was a simple choice. I had read that the resale value on the Dillons was excellent... something like 80%, if not more. So I figured I'd go that direction, and if I enjoyed reloading I had a good press that would last a lifetime. If I DIDN'T like reloading... I could sell the press and not have lost much money.

I'm glad I went the direction I did, you betcha. You wanna call that attitude? Knock yourself out. From where I sit, the person (in this thread at least) with the attitude is you.

fredj338
08-21-2010, 13:53
I look at it like this. If your only driving exp was a Hugo & then someone gave you a nice new CTX, 300C, BMW, whatever to drive, I think most would bash the Hugo a bit. Yep, the Hugo does it's job, gets you from A-B, but hard to argue the other don't get you there w/ less hassle & stress & more comfort. Same w/ Lee. IF it's all you can or want to afford, go for it, but expect things to break & hassle to get them fixed & spend time fixing little problems. The Dillon, it just doesn't happen very often. Like Ron59, I learned along time, cutting costs on tools means the cheap tool often fails when you need it most. Same w/ guns. PB, please don't tell me you have a Hi-point in the glove box of your Hugo!:shame:
Ah, managed to get a little stick in on Lee, huh? Go figure. i have yet to get a bad Lee product. Call it budget, call it cheap, whatever. Lee has good customer service, but I have never used it, because my Lee equipment hasnt failed.
Then I submit you haven't been loading long enough. Even the simple Lee stuff breaks. I have replaced several hand priming tools, then bought the Hornady, much better. The Lee molds are so hit & miss, sent several back, oh yeah, & I had to pay shipping. So their CS is not great, but adequate if you push them hard enough. I do think their 20# BP lead pot is a value item & I have had no issues w/ mine, but others hate them as well. As far as Snap-on, more liek Craftsman to HF/cheap China. Eventually, cheap tools used enough break.

Colorado4Wheel
08-21-2010, 14:06
LCT vs 550. It's no contest. If you like the LCT you will love the 550.

PBKing
08-21-2010, 14:56
ron59
Lets be clear. No one is questioning the quality or service of any company. All American manufactures get my money...Dillon being one of the best.
The issue is the bashing down of anything that aint blue. It is not productive.
post #7

How long have you been handloading?

unclebob
08-21-2010, 15:16
If a new reloader what to be ask what loader do I need. I donít jump in and say you need a Dillon 650 because that is what I use. It would be stupid too tell them that if they only shoot 50 rds a week. So I ask. How much do you shot a week, month? How much time do you have too reload? How much do you want too spend? What do you shoot? Do you or do you want too shoot competition? What other guns do you think you would want too get in the future?
When it comes too pressís the two only Lee press that I would recommend is the LCT and the Cast single stage press. I use or have used lee dies, bullet molds, hand primer, I well also some times that you can get some crappy lee products. And I have. Yes you can get a replacement from lee but you have too send the part back. Waste of my time and money. Cheaper in some cases just too buy a new one. Dillon and Hornady call them up and itís in the mail.
You have too remember some people think what they use is what everyone else should be using. Because they have not had problem with the Lee stuff. I can give you 10 that have.
If you are only doing your own oil change Craftsman tools are great but if you are doing it for a living you get Snap-on. Or are hammers the same.
That goes for presses also.

WiskyT
08-21-2010, 16:48
I look at it like this. If your only driving exp was a Hugo & then someone gave you a nice new CTX, 300C, BMW, whatever to drive, I think most would bash the Hugo a bit. Yep, the Hugo does it's job, gets you from A-B, but hard to argue the other don't get you there w/ less hassle & stress & more comfort. Same w/ Lee. IF it's all you can or want to afford, go for it, but expect things to break & hassle to get them fixed & spend time fixing little problems. The Dillon, it just doesn't happen very often. Like Ron59, I learned along time, cutting costs on tools means the cheap tool often fails when you need it most. Same w/ guns. PB, please don't tell me you have a Hi-point in the glove box of your Hugo!:shame:

Then I submit you haven't been loading long enough. Even the simple Lee stuff breaks. I have replaced several hand priming tools, then bought the Hornady, much better. The Lee molds are so hit & miss, sent several back, oh yeah, & I had to pay shipping. So their CS is not great, but adequate if you push them hard enough. I do think their 20# BP lead pot is a value item & I have had no issues w/ mine, but others hate them as well. As far as Snap-on, more like Craftsman to HF/cheap China. Eventually, cheap tools used enough break.

Well, Lee isn't a yugo, it's a Honda. As for expensive German cars, ask the HONEST guy that owns one. My neighbor hates his 500MB that his wife made him buy. You know who the only one who can do an oil change on it? The MB dealer. It's a couple of hundred bucks every few months just to get the oil changed. He got the new MB when a Chapman strut failed. $1,500.00 for one strut, that's a $250.00 job at the Honda dealer, cheaper at an independent shop. Buy a BMW or MB service manager a few drinks, he'll tell you the same stories of problems as a Toyota service manager.

BTW, Snap-On tools break too. They break less because the guys who buy them try harder not to break them. That's because the Snap-On dealer asks a few questions regarding abuse. I've seen guys get turned down on replacement Snap-On tools due to abuse. I treat my Craftsman tools like crap. Sears could care less how I broke it. Usually I break the ratchets by putting a pipe on them.

So, sometimes more expensive is just more expensive. RCBS costs more than Lee, they have great customer service when you break their stuff.

ilgunguygt
08-21-2010, 16:54
Then I submit you haven't been loading long enough. Even the simple Lee stuff breaks. I have replaced several hand priming tools, then bought the Hornady, much better. The Lee molds are so hit & miss, sent several back, oh yeah, & I had to pay shipping. So their CS is not great, but adequate if you push them hard enough. I do think their 20# BP lead pot is a value item & I have had no issues w/ mine, but others hate them as well. As far as Snap-on, more liek Craftsman to HF/cheap China. Eventually, cheap tools used enough break.


Fred, normally I agree with a lot of what you say, but I must say you are wrong here. Lee equipment is not dillon, or hornady, thats true. However, your assumptions are just that, and not fact. I have two lee presses, 7 sets of Lee dies, a Lee scale, a Lee hand primer, and Lee Safety Prime for my Turret press. There may be more there, I would have to check. All of my Lee dies have been perfect, no problems. In fact the only defective die I have ever had was a Redding. My Lee scale works great, albeit a little different, but accurate. As far as my Lee handprimer that you break so many of, mine was purchased new in 1996. After 14 years the parts are all original. No problems at all. Maybe I am lucky, or maybe you are not, I dont know. I will continue to purchase Lee equipment, when it meets my needs. My two presses have put out more ammo than I could care to add up.

All that said, I also have a dillon scale, an RCBS bullet puller, an RCBS case trimmer, etc. I am not solely a Lee fan, I use other equipement too. I find it funny that if I do not feel like you do about Lee Equipment then I am a neophyte that needs more experience.

unclebob
08-21-2010, 17:02
ilgunguygt
If you don't mind me asking how much do you reload and shoot in a month?

WiskyT
08-21-2010, 17:03
Another thing the "you get what you pay for" guys always leave out, that is expensive stuff breaks too. MB and BMW have service departments. Why, just to change oil? Dillon has great CS. That's good, because they send out repair parts in a jiffy. HK's cost a fortune, the P7 has a mythical Teutonic power associated with it, yet I've been to the funeral of a NJSP Trooper who's P7 broke it's firing pin while he was in a gunfight. Windows costs more than Linux, because Linux is free. Windows sucks and bill gates should be charged with theft by deception for calling his products "operating systems" when they don't operate.

You get what you pay for to an extent. Dirt cheap is usually garbage, very expensive is generally over priced. The middle is usually the best deal. Hondas, not yugos or MB. Craftsman not harbor freight or Snap-On. Glock, not Highpoint or HK. Sometimes only the best will do. If you absolutely must drive at 130MPH in the rain in complete comfort, a V12 MB for a hundred grand or so is the only way to go. Are you really going to fix a fuel line on Michael Schumacher's car? I have a pair of Danner boots because their were some times that I really needed them. The rest of the time I wore Thorogood.

ilgunguygt
08-21-2010, 17:11
ilgunguygt
If you don't mind me asking how much do you reload and shoot in a month?
I am forcibly retired(disabled) so I shoot a decent amount. I meet with a group of older guys (young punks to you, Jack) every M-W-F at the gun club for coffee and shooting. I generally shoot anywhere from 100-150 rounds per day. Sometimes we only meet twice. I also take my son out, every Saturday for him to shoot. He usually goes through 75-100 a week, and sometimes I shoot a little with him. I would say that I probably shoot about 500 reloads a week. About 2/3 of these are with home cast bullets. This would not include what my wife shoots, as she only goes out a few times a month. I also take my dad out at least once a month and we usually go through several hundred on those days. I probably dont shoot as much as others, but probably more than most.

unclebob
08-21-2010, 17:21
I am forcibly retired(disabled) so I shoot a decent amount. I meet with a group of older guys (young punks to you, Jack) every M-W-F at the gun club for coffee and shooting. I generally shoot anywhere from 100-150 rounds per day. Sometimes we only meet twice. I also take my son out, every Saturday for him to shoot. He usually goes through 75-100 a week, and sometimes I shoot a little with him. I would say that I probably shoot about 500 reloads a week. About 2/3 of these are with home cast bullets. This would not include what my wife shoots, as she only goes out a few times a month. I also take my dad out at least once a month and we usually go through several hundred on those days. I probably dont shoot as much as others, but probably more than most.

What Lee press are you using?

ilgunguygt
08-21-2010, 17:25
What Lee press are you using?
Right now I am using the Lee Turret with auto indexing enabled. Its a decent press that easily meets my needs. I had to upgrade a while back, as the single stage wasnt cutting it. Eight hours reloading, one hour shooting.:rofl: Actually, until I messed my back up, I used the single stage only. Before that I didnt shoot nearly as much. I would guess that I shot about 200 a week total before then. Now, well, I have to do something to keep myself busy and my wife from hating me. :wavey:

RustyFN
08-21-2010, 17:25
They'll line up for it, at $50.00.

More like $100.

Damn Ron you have to be the photoshop guru, that's great.

n2extrm
08-21-2010, 18:18
I am not picking on you wisky, but Snap-on and craftsman aint close. In the years I have turned a wrench I NEVER EVER had a Snap-on guy give me any trouble or ask any questions when I handed him a broken tool. I have been wrenching since 1985, even for the 10 years I was a medic I always worked as a mechanic. Anyone who knows me will tell you I am hard on a tool. I have handed in some broken stuff that had them scratching their heads, never a problem. As for quality take a bolt with some rust and wear on it put a craftsman wrench on it it will slip off, put a Snap-on wrench on it it will bite in 99% of the time. Different animals, tolerances, and even the way they contact the bolt.

Yes BMW and MB parts cost more because they are diffrent in design and function in most cases. Anyone can change the oil in them. It costs more because the recomend or require synthetic oil and hold 8 or 9 quarts of oil. It adds up fast.

ilgunguygt
08-21-2010, 18:55
I am not picking on you wisky, but Snap-on and craftsman aint close. In the years I have turned a wrench I NEVER EVER had a Snap-on guy give me any trouble or ask any questions when I handed him a broken tool. I have been wrenching since 1985, even for the 10 years I was a medic I always worked as a mechanic. Anyone who knows me will tell you I am hard on a tool. I have handed in some broken stuff that had them scratching their heads, never a problem. As for quality take a bolt with some rust and wear on it put a craftsman wrench on it it will slip off, put a Snap-on wrench on it it will bite in 99% of the time. Different animals, tolerances, and even the way they contact the bolt.

Yes BMW and MB parts cost more because they are diffrent in design and function in most cases. Anyone can change the oil in them. It costs more because the recomend or require synthetic oil and hold 8 or 9 quarts of oil. It adds up fast.
Before becoming disabled I was a wrench turner. Actually, I was an ASE Master Auto Tech, and used to teach Auto at a college also. I own a large number of snap-on tools. If you are a flat rate guy, you break a lot of tools, god knows I did. I worked in both Toyota and GM dealerships, and every Snap-on guy I ever had never asked me any questions. Even when it was a chrome wobble socket that I beat apart on an impact.

As far as the machining, I had bolts that were half rounded on cars, that my Snap-on stuff would get loose. Nothing compares, its way more than just price. Especially when you depend on it for a living.

fredj338
08-21-2010, 19:09
Fred, normally I agree with a lot of what you say, but I must say you are wrong here. Lee equipment is not dillon, or hornady, thats true. However, your assumptions are just that, and not fact. I have two lee presses, 7 sets of Lee dies, a Lee scale, a Lee hand primer, and Lee Safety Prime for my Turret press. There may be more there, I would have to check. All of my Lee dies have been perfect, no problems. In fact the only defective die I have ever had was a Redding. My Lee scale works great, albeit a little different, but accurate. As far as my Lee handprimer that you break so many of, mine was purchased new in 1996. After 14 years the parts are all original. No problems at all. Maybe I am lucky, or maybe you are not, I dont know. I will continue to purchase Lee equipment, when it meets my needs. My two presses have put out more ammo than I could care to add up.

All that said, I also have a dillon scale, an RCBS bullet puller, an RCBS case trimmer, etc. I am not solely a Lee fan, I use other equipement too. I find it funny that if I do not feel like you do about Lee Equipment then I am a neophyte that needs more experience.
Maybe your just lucky. Like you, I can only relate my own exp over 35yr reloading some 22+ (BTW, 7 calibers is a good start) calibers using all manner of gear. I have the most QC issues w/ Lee, whether dies, priming tools (fortunately I never spent any money on a press), molds, it's just everything they make is cheap. If it works for you great. I seems the issue w/some Lee owners is they feel they have to justify buying cheap, not the Dillon or Hornady guys having to justify spending more. So I do NOT recommend their gear except in cerrtain applications. AFter all, relaoding/handloading on cheap gear is far better than buying factory ammo.
I don't have an issue w/ their dies for the most part, but interior finish & tolerances can be off at times. Their 6cav bullet molds are ok for the money, but again, I've sent two back for broken parts & others for badly aligned mold halves. Their 20# BP pot works fine for melting & dispensing lead, some complain they leak, mine does not. I also have a MagmaCaster, but that is another story. Lee is not even Craftsman in quality, that belongs to Dillon IMO (no BS warranty). No, more like the cheap CHina crap you get at HF & if it works, great, if it doesn't, go buy another cheap crap & hope that one does work. Hey, it's all good, we are all on the same side; making our own ammo. Just don't get so tweeked when others don't recommend the same stuff you have or run it under the bus a bit. Most of us have been there & done that & like to help others avoid the money pit that can come from buying cheap stuff & rebuying better later. Just buy better now & be done w/ it.:dunno:
If I go blue does the arrogant attitude come with the warranty?
Lets get along. We need to appreciate and respect the experience behind the handle.
It is a tool, like a hammer. It is more critical to know where to hit than the brand of the hammer. BTW, this was not a good start to a "can't we all just get along" thread. I don't see any arrogance in knowing you have a better hammer. But PB is correct, owning any brand of gear, like any brand of car, doesn't meant the guy at the wheel knows what he/she is doing.

ilgunguygt
08-21-2010, 21:43
Maybe your just lucky. Like you, I can only relate my own exp over 35yr reloading some 22+ (BTW, 7 calibers is a good start) calibers using all manner of gear. I have the most QC issues w/ Lee, whether dies, priming tools (fortunately I never spent any money on a press), molds, it's just everything they make is cheap. If it works for you great. I seems the issue w/some Lee owners is they feel they have to justify buying cheap, not the Dillon or Hornady guys having to justify spending more. So I do NOT recommend their gear except in cerrtain applications. AFter all, relaoding/handloading on cheap gear is far better than buying factory ammo.
I don't have an issue w/ their dies for the most part, but interior finish & tolerances can be off at times. Their 6cav bullet molds are ok for the money, but again, I've sent two back for broken parts & others for badly aligned mold halves. Their 20# BP pot works fine for melting & dispensing lead, some complain they leak, mine does not. I also have a MagmaCaster, but that is another story. Lee is not even Craftsman in quality, that belongs to Dillon IMO (no BS warranty). No, more like the cheap CHina crap you get at HF & if it works, great, if it doesn't, go buy another cheap crap & hope that one does work. Hey, it's all good, we are all on the same side; making our own ammo. Just don't get so tweeked when others don't recommend the same stuff you have or run it under the bus a bit. Most of us have been there & done that & like to help others avoid the money pit that can come from buying cheap stuff & rebuying better later. Just buy better now & be done w/ it.:dunno:

You obviously dont get it. I am not recomending Lee to anyone. I would personally own more expensive equipment, if I could. I only reload for 7 calibers(and plan on keeping it under 10) because I buy many weapons in the same caliber, to make it cheaper for me to shoot. I'm not sure how many people here have ever been on disability, but when you make good money, and your wife is a manager in a fast food place, you are alright. When you instantly lose the ability to work, and your wife becomes the sole breadwinner, with a disability check only coming in for you, you learn how to live cheap.

What I am saying, and have said, and will continue to say, whether you feel your experience makes what you say more important or not, is that there is nothing wrong with using Lee Equipment. It does not fall apart all the time(except their progressive presses, I will give you that), and makes good quality ammo. So, if you want to talk down to Lee owners because of your 35 years of experience which makes your word gold, feel free. Although, those of us who do use Lee equipment to load will continue to use it, even though it cant be true, because they are all junk and break like you said.

dudel
08-22-2010, 04:05
You never hear anyone using other brands bashing Dillon. How come so much hate coming from the blue.
After all they made fine boolits before dillon..

Depends on the forum. This one seems to have a high number of Dillon users, so you'll tend to see more pro Dillon posts. Get on a LNL forum and you'll see less pro Dillon or Lee posts. Go to a Lee forum and you'll see Dillon and LNL bashing (though not at much as there aren't as many Lee loaders out there) :supergrin:

Over on the BE forums, they are pretty solid on Dillon, so you get the expected spin.

Someone mentioned Ford vs Chevy. Go to a Ford site if you want Chevy bashing; got the the Chevy site if you want Ford bashing.

I think "hate" is the wrong word. No one really cares what someone else loads on or with. They can however tell you what took them from x equipment to y equipment. That's valid.

WiskyT
08-22-2010, 07:04
I am not picking on you wisky, but Snap-on and craftsman aint close. In the years I have turned a wrench I NEVER EVER had a Snap-on guy give me any trouble or ask any questions when I handed him a broken tool. I have been wrenching since 1985, even for the 10 years I was a medic I always worked as a mechanic. Anyone who knows me will tell you I am hard on a tool. I have handed in some broken stuff that had them scratching their heads, never a problem. As for quality take a bolt with some rust and wear on it put a craftsman wrench on it it will slip off, put a Snap-on wrench on it it will bite in 99% of the time. Different animals, tolerances, and even the way they contact the bolt.

Yes BMW and MB parts cost more because they are diffrent in design and function in most cases. Anyone can change the oil in them. It costs more because the recomend or require synthetic oil and hold 8 or 9 quarts of oil. It adds up fast.

Some yes and no regarding your post. Snap-On is clearly better in some regards. My line wrenches are Snap-On because of the "flank-drive" they had back then (everyone uses it now). Snap-On sockets are thinner so they get in tighter places. I have seen guys truned down on screwdrivers that were snapped, maybe that dealer was a prick or the policy was "tightened" at that particular time.

There is nothing special about the strut on an MB or BMW. It's just a strut. You could buy a Koni for less than the dealer cost of the MB strut and the labor was an obscenity. Also, many of the parts are made in a more expensive way for no good reason. The rotors on a Lexus are "composite" meaning that they have a steel hub with an iron rotor. They do this to save weight. The rotors costa fortune. Do you know why that weight savings is important? I'm not going to tell you. It's not due to the overall weight of the vehicle. I'll guarantee you there isn't a single Lexus owner on the planet that knows the advantage of reducing rotor weight. It is a complete waste of money.

Here is another analogy. Titanium is more expensive than steel. It is lighter and stronger and all the fighter jocks scream around at mach 2 500 feet off the deck wrapped in titanium. So shouldn't my car be made out of titanium? In fact, everything I own that is made of steel should be made of titanium becuase it's better and therefore costs more. You get what you pay for right?

FWIW, I had them switch out the aluminum wheels on my Tacoma when I bought it new. The salesguy told me they couldn't and I told him they could. Sure enough, they found another Tacoma with steel wheels and switched them out. The salesguy wanted to know why "Aluminum is better" he said. "Why?" I alsked him. He couldn't answer me. I them told him why I wanted the steel wheels. They lowered the payment $6.00/ month. Steel is better because they are cheaper and hold up better if you jump a curb etc. Steel is easier to replace or repair and less likely to be stolen.

I'll tell you why lightweight wheels and brakes are better if you can't google it in a later post.

RustyFN
08-22-2010, 10:41
(fortunately I never spent any money on a press), Lee is not even Craftsman in quality, that belongs to Dillon IMO (no BS warranty). No, more like the cheap CHina crap you get at HF & if it works, great, if it doesn't, go buy another cheap crap & hope that one does work.

I think that might have been PB's point. People telling others that Lee presses are crap that don't have any experience with them. I am not saying that all of their presses are great But I do believe their classic line of presses are quality because I own some. Read some reviews on the Lee classic turret and single stage, you won't find very many unhappy customers. Yes I have loaded on a Dillon 550 and thought it was a very nice press and would be happy to own one. I just can't justify spending that much money for what I shoot just to load a little faster. Hopefully some day I will shoot enough to justify buying a progressive.

fredj338
08-22-2010, 11:00
What I am saying, and have said, and will continue to say, whether you feel your experience makes what you say more important or not, is that there is nothing wrong with using Lee Equipment. It does not fall apart all the time(except their progressive presses, I will give you that), and makes good quality ammo. So, if you want to talk down to Lee owners because of your 35 years of experience which makes your word gold, feel free. Although, those of us who do use Lee equipment to load will continue to use it, even though it cant be true, because they are all junk and break like you said.
Obviously you aren't getting it either. I NEVER SAID that there was anything wrong w/ using Lee gear, never. It is what it is though, cheap crap. Yes one can load good ammo w/ cheap crap, just like one can build a fine house or fix a car w/ cheap tools. I have done it just starting out. So where are we disagreeing? You won't recommend Lee & I won't recommend Lee & we both use some Lee gear? It is servicable, like a Yugo or a Hi-point, just don't exepct it to last as long as better gear & if it does, count your blessings.
Sorry for your current state of grace, but you are obviously a bit bitter. I don't believe I have ever talked down to Lee owners, that is your perception, maybe your taking things personally when they are not meant to be. Keep in mind, only YOU can make YOU feel one way or the other. I merely state my dislike for cheap Lee gear, JMO, of which I am still entitled to in Kalif. for the moment anyway. If that makes you feel someone is running you down, that is on you my friend. I stop worrying about a person's self esteem when they are about 15, after that, it's on them. I am not a fan of politcal correctness, I just call it like I see it. Really, if Lee were all that & a bag of chips, why wouldn't everyone just use it & buy more beer? BEcause it's just not.
People telling others that Lee presses are crap that don't have any experience with
Rusty, I never said I didn't have any exp, just didn't buy one. I have exp w/ the LNL but don't own one. I have played w/ the Lee progressives enough & just didn't like the cheapness of it. The CC SS looks as good as any. Now why would they make that if their other SS presses were doing the job. The LCT also looks decent & I have recommended both to newb reloaders over something like a 650 becuase most people just don't need anything like a 650. I have never come on the forum & told someone their equip choice was poor & they should have bought X, at least to my recollection. If asked what to buy though, I will most often recommend something else.

n2extrm
08-22-2010, 11:20
Some yes and no regarding your post. Snap-On is clearly better in some regards. My line wrenches are Snap-On because of the "flank-drive" they had back then (everyone uses it now). Snap-On sockets are thinner so they get in tighter places. I have seen guys truned down on screwdrivers that were snapped, maybe that dealer was a prick or the policy was "tightened" at that particular time.

There is nothing special about the strut on an MB or BMW. It's just a strut. You could buy a Koni for less than the dealer cost of the MB strut and the labor was an obscenity. Also, many of the parts are made in a more expensive way for no good reason. The rotors on a Lexus are "composite" meaning that they have a steel hub with an iron rotor. They do this to save weight. The rotors costa fortune. Do you know why that weight savings is important? I'm not going to tell you. It's not due to the overall weight of the vehicle. I'll guarantee you there isn't a single Lexus owner on the planet that knows the advantage of reducing rotor weight. It is a complete waste of money.

Here is another analogy. Titanium is more expensive than steel. It is lighter and stronger and all the fighter jocks scream around at mach 2 500 feet off the deck wrapped in titanium. So shouldn't my car be made out of titanium? In fact, everything I own that is made of steel should be made of titanium becuase it's better and therefore costs more. You get what you pay for right?

FWIW, I had them switch out the aluminum wheels on my Tacoma when I bought it new. The salesguy told me they couldn't and I told him they could. Sure enough, they found another Tacoma with steel wheels and switched them out. The salesguy wanted to know why "Aluminum is better" he said. "Why?" I alsked him. He couldn't answer me. I them told him why I wanted the steel wheels. They lowered the payment $6.00/ month. Steel is better because they are cheaper and hold up better if you jump a curb etc. Steel is easier to replace or repair and less likely to be stolen.

I'll tell you why lightweight wheels and brakes are better if you can't google it in a later post.


Wisky

I guess I must have done something to you? I really like you I don't understand it.

First lets get this out of the way. I am ASE certified master, Volvo master tech, VISTA finalist, Land rover and Mazda, and some heavy truck and diesel stuff thrown in. I also raced NHRA in a 9.40 second 1972 camaro and 8.80 dragster. I know all about unsprung weight and carbon fiber steel composite and laminate rotors, weld wheels and the rest. I also know that a Snap-on tool can't be compared to craftsman if you use it all day long. I spend $6-$7K a year with Snap-on and NEVER have a problem with warranty. The dealer only hassles the guys who don't buy or don't pay on time. And I also know the ME/BE $2500 strut is electronically controlled by the ABS and BCM to adjust ride hight and firmness. It is also carrying the weight of the car, no springs. There is a good bit more to it then a Honda and thats why it costs more.

The bottom line is the point of diminishing returns. Yes Titanium is not really required for your car, but when a fighter jet comes into play yes. You can change your oil with a Craftsman wrench, do it all day long and Snap-on will be your best friend. Steel wheels vs alloy, it is personal. I have alloy on my F350 because I needed a set of wheels and they were within a few bucks of steel. I would not put a set of Weld Drag Lights on it, they would be bent in a day. I want to be able to sit down for an hour and load 600 or 800 rounds so I bought a 650. If 200 a week was all I needed then I would have looked at other options. You the individual have to decide what your expectations are and the budget. I don't take that away from anyone. If all you can justify is a loadmaster go for it. If it is a RC, get going and have fun. I never looked down at anyone for what they bought, don't call me a snob because I saved and bought what I did. (not saying you just a general statement) I had to stop shooting for several years because I could not afford a range fee and a box of 9mm. I regretted not having started loading back then when a friend told me to try it. I have been there in the no-budget land myself. Go with what you can swing, maybe a little more if you can save and wait a bit. My point is simple, if your wife wants a great steak dinner for her anniversary, would you take her to McDonald's? No because the expectation and result would be different. ( I know you would cook for her you are quite a talented cook IIRC).

Anyway I hope no hard feelings just because we don't agree.:wavey:

Hydraulicman
08-22-2010, 11:37
1050 is a fine machine. I'd really like one on my bench but i'm afraid it would run me out of components faster than i could buy them.

WiskyT
08-22-2010, 12:09
Wisky

I guess I must have done something to you? I really like you I don't understand it.

First lets get this out of the way. I am ASE certified master, Volvo master tech, VISTA finalist, Land rover and Mazda, and some heavy truck and diesel stuff thrown in. I also raced NHRA in a 9.40 second 1972 camaro and 8.80 dragster. I know all about unsprung weight and carbon fiber steel composite and laminate rotors, weld wheels and the rest. I also know that a Snap-on tool can't be compared to craftsman if you use it all day long. I spend $6-$7K a year with Snap-on and NEVER have a problem with warranty. The dealer only hassles the guys who don't buy or don't pay on time. And I also know the ME/BE $2500 strut is electronically controlled by the ABS and BCM to adjust ride hight and firmness. It is also carrying the weight of the car, no springs. There is a good bit more to it then a Honda and thats why it costs more.

The bottom line is the point of diminishing returns. Yes Titanium is not really required for your car, but when a fighter jet comes into play yes. You can change your oil with a Craftsman wrench, do it all day long and Snap-on will be your best friend. Steel wheels vs alloy, it is personal. I have alloy on my F350 because I needed a set of wheels and they were within a few bucks of steel. I would not put a set of Weld Drag Lights on it, they would be bent in a day. I want to be able to sit down for an hour and load 600 or 800 rounds so I bought a 650. If 200 a week was all I needed then I would have looked at other options. You the individual have to decide what your expectations are and the budget. I don't take that away from anyone. If all you can justify is a loadmaster go for it. If it is a RC, get going and have fun. I never looked down at anyone for what they bought, don't call me a snob because I saved and bought what I did. (not saying you just a general statement) I had to stop shooting for several years because I could not afford a range fee and a box of 9mm. I regretted not having started loading back then when a friend told me to try it. I have been there in the no-budget land myself. Go with what you can swing, maybe a little more if you can save and wait a bit. My point is simple, if your wife wants a great steak dinner for her anniversary, would you take her to McDonald's? No because the expectation and result would be different. ( I know you would cook for her you are quite a talented cook IIRC).

Anyway I hope no hard feelings just because we don't agree.:wavey:

Let's take care of the important (red, bold face) stuff first. There is nothing personal about this as far as I'm concerned. I'm sorry if my posts came across that way.

Second. Sorry to insult your intelligence regarding unsprung weight. You are in a group of people that probably doesn't number more than 1,000 in the entire USA that understands what lightweight components are for. When my brother had to buy a couple of rotors for his wife's Lexus and they cost a couple of hundred bucks each just to save a few ounces of unsprung weight that she would never gain from in her SUV, his head nearly exploded. There is no advantage to that, but it does cost more.

Whatever "features" the MB struts have on them, they add nothing to a car used to get groceries and go to church. The woman who drives it doesn't even know what a strut is and can't even drive at night. It may be an engineering masterpiece and expensive, but it's a silly waste of money for the people who buy the cars.

I don't fault anyone for buying Dillon. But I do get a kick out of people who buy a $1,000 machine and shoot 100 rounds a week (often badly) and then call Lee "crap". Lee and Craftsman are not crap (you didn't say they were). They are "adequate". Crap would be something that doesn't work.

Regarding Snap-On's warranty service, yeah, the guys I saw getting jerked around could very well have been deadbeats. They probably were based on the rest of the way they behaved.

Duck of Death
08-22-2010, 12:29
I got dealer's price on a LNL, couldn't on a Dillon. LNL has been a good press, I imagine the Dillon would too.

The main thing I recommend is to get a AUTO progressive, so when your mind wanders (and it will) during reloading you don't get into trouble.

shotgunred
08-22-2010, 12:59
The main thing I recommend is to get a AUTO progressive, so when your mind wanders (and it will) during reloading you don't get into trouble.

If your mind wanders you should take a break. After all no one really wants a gun to blow up in their hand.

tshadow6
08-22-2010, 13:03
I spent an afternoon setting up my Lee Loadmaster only to have it mess up the very first round. I boxed it up, got my money back and bought a Dillon Square Deal. My Dillon never failed the whole time I was actively reloading.

n2extrm
08-22-2010, 14:53
Wisky,

No problem no hard feelings.

And I agree the MB BMW stuff is over engineered for no good reason.

RustyFN
08-22-2010, 15:00
Rusty, I never said I didn't have any exp, just didn't buy one. I have exp w/ the LNL but don't own one. I have played w/ the Lee progressives enough & just didn't like the cheapness of it. The CC SS looks as good as any. Now why would they make that if their other SS presses were doing the job. The LCT also looks decent & I have recommended both to newb reloaders over something like a 650 because most people just don't need anything like a 650. I have never come on the forum & told someone their equip choice was poor & they should have bought X, at least to my recollection. If asked what to buy though, I will most often recommend something else.

Fred I didn't mean for it to look like I was singling you out there. I normally agree with most of your advice. I think the problem is there are a lot of people that start with Dillon and have never used any other brand. Any time anybody asks about a press all they can say is " buy a Dillon and just be done with it " without knowing what caliber or the needs of the person. What do I need to load 30-06 for hunting, " buy a Dillon and just be done with it ". I shoot 200 rounds a month what would be a good starter press, " buy a Dillon and just be done with it " I have also seen many times where someone will ask " should I start with the Lee single stage or turret " and get the same reply. I'm sure you all remember seeing a lot of posts like that. I could be wrong but I think that might be the arrogance PB was referring to. In my opinion the Lee bashing Dillon owners here are a minority, there aren't that many.

Danny Reid
08-22-2010, 15:09
Had my RCBS for years...never a single issue with it. No experience with Dillon at all, however I do like their catalogs!

dudel
08-22-2010, 15:49
Had my RCBS for years...never a single issue with it. No experience with Dillon at all, however I do like their catalogs!

I think we can all agree that Dillon has the best catalogs. :supergrin:

AZBru88
08-22-2010, 16:37
Had my RCBS for years...never a single issue with it. No experience with Dillon at all, however I do like their catalogs!
They do find some nice looking girls with guns!:supergrin:
Hopefully my Dillon order will be in Monday! Ordered a swagger. 6K of .223 brass and 5K of 9mm to process!
Have you ever seen his DVD of his min gun and other fun toys! Neat stuff!
I'll let you guys hash it out, I'm going to load a few hundred rounds of 10mm on my 550B now!:rofl:Be back in 25 minutes!:whistling:

shotgunred
08-22-2010, 16:46
I must be getting old. I thought the picture of the car would be nicer if she got out of the way.:wow:

unclebob
08-22-2010, 17:06
I must be getting old. I thought the picture of the car would be nicer if she got out of the way.:wow:

What cars what guns? They have pictures of them on the cover?

ilgunguygt
08-22-2010, 17:41
Obviously you aren't getting it either. I NEVER SAID that there was anything wrong w/ using Lee gear, never. It is what it is though, cheap crap. Yes one can load good ammo w/ cheap crap, just like one can build a fine house or fix a car w/ cheap tools. I have done it just starting out. So where are we disagreeing? You won't recommend Lee & I won't recommend Lee & we both use some Lee gear? It is servicable, like a Yugo or a Hi-point, just don't exepct it to last as long as better gear & if it does, count your blessings.
Sorry for your current state of grace, but you are obviously a bit bitter. I don't believe I have ever talked down to Lee owners, that is your perception, maybe your taking things personally when they are not meant to be. Keep in mind, only YOU can make YOU feel one way or the other. I merely state my dislike for cheap Lee gear, JMO, of which I am still entitled to in Kalif. for the moment anyway. If that makes you feel someone is running you down, that is on you my friend. I stop worrying about a person's self esteem when they are about 15, after that, it's on them. I am not a fan of politcal correctness, I just call it like I see it. Really, if Lee were all that & a bag of chips, why wouldn't everyone just use it & buy more beer? BEcause it's just not.



Fred, sorry for snapping at you there, I certainly didnt mean any offense. I read your posts and felt as though you were saying that a person that would use Lee equipement is inexperienced, etc. I disagreed with that. The only reason I said ANYTHING about my situation in life was to illustrate that some experienced reloaders are forced to use equipment that is of lesser quality. Its what we do to support our habits, you know?:supergrin:

I'm not bitter about my situation in life, quite the opposite actually. Before surgery my odds of ever walking again were about 20%. I can now walk anywhere I want, and do not even use a cane mutch. I am terribly happy to be able to have that freedom and I thank god for it everyday. That and my forced retirement makes my shooting hobby all the more accessible to me.

Again, I am sorry for sounding like a prat, I certainly didnt mean to, and not to someone who's opinion I generally respect and agree with. It seems, in fact, that we are in agreement on Lee equipment, especially the LoadMaster.:rofl:

fredj338
08-22-2010, 17:50
I spent an afternoon setting up my Lee Loadmaster only to have it mess up the very first round. I boxed it up, got my money back and bought a Dillon Square Deal. My Dillon never failed the whole time I was actively reloading.
STOP BASHING LEE PRODUCTS! PEOPLE"S FEELINGS ARE BEING HURT ALL OVER THE USA TONIGHT.:whistling: I don't care what anyone uses as long as they reload, handload, refill, restuff, whatever. Just stop buying cheap factory ammo.:faint:
Fred I didn't mean for it to look like I was singling you out there. I normally agree with most of your advice. I think the problem is there are a lot of people that start with Dillon and have never used any other brand. Any time anybody asks about a press all they can say is " buy a Dillon and just be done with it " without knowing what caliber or the needs of the person. What do I need to load 30-06 for hunting, " buy a Dillon and just be done with it ". I shoot 200 rounds a month what would be a good starter press, " buy a Dillon and just be done with it " I have also seen many times where someone will ask " should I start with the Lee single stage or turret " and get the same reply. I'm sure you all remember seeing a lot of posts like that. I could be wrong but I think that might be the arrogance PB was referring to. In my opinion the Lee bashing Dillon owners here are a minority, there aren't that many.
No, I don't feel singled out at all. You can review all my posts, I seldom point newbs to any progressive & if I do, it is usually a 550B because of it's simplicity. I've often said most newb reloaders buy waaaay too much press. As WT notes, buying a 650 & turning out whatever load you pull of the net does not make you a reloader/handloader or mean you have much exp to pass on to others. When I teach a relaoding class, I use a cheap Lee ss press, because I needed more than one. It's a SS press, it's going to be fine for pulling the handle a couple dozen times in a class. My own SS, that I still use a lot, was a RCBS JR. The only reason it got retired is the window wasn't large enough to do the really big magnum rifle cases & not quite heavy enough for serious case forming.
I realize calling someones pride & joy crap could offend them, but it's not from arrogance but experience that I choose my tools. Craftsman work fine for me in hand tools, then again, I am not a mechanic. Lee would work fine for me too, if I didn't load 2K-3K/m, as I used to.
I'm not bitter about my situation in life, quite the opposite actually. Before surgery my odds of ever walking again were about 20%. I can now walk anywhere I want, and do not even use a cane mutch. I am terribly happy to be able to have that freedom and I thank god for it everyday. That and my forced retirement makes my shooting hobby all the more accessible to me.
No problem. The issue w/ the net is it's hard to read someones words & not put your own meaning to them. I know where you are coming from. I almost lost sight in one eye a few years ago. It left me w/ mono vision & it has affected my shooting, but at least I can still see enough to shoot & still shoot better than most of those "master" shooters on TopShot.:wavey: As long as guys are reloading, I don't really care what they do it with, but I have my own preferences.:supergrin:

RustyFN
08-22-2010, 17:56
STOP BASHING LEE PRODUCTS! PEOPLE"S FEELINGS ARE BEING HURT ALL OVER THE USA TONIGHT.:whistling: I don't care what anyone uses as long as they reload, handload, refill, restuff, whatever. Just stop buying cheap factory ammo.:faint:

I don't think screwing up the first round and having to box the press up and send it back is bashing the product. :rofl:

Hoser
08-22-2010, 19:27
1050 is a fine machine. I'd really like one on my bench but i'm afraid it would run me out of components faster than i could buy them.

Thats why I buy bullets by the case and primers by the flat.

Less time at the machine and more time at the range. Or more time to do whatever the hell I want.

fredj338
08-22-2010, 19:37
I don't think screwing up the first round and having to box the press up and send it back is bashing the product. :rofl:

I'm trying to be more sensetive Rusty.:hugs:

VN350X10
08-22-2010, 21:18
On the bench right now......L to R.

Lee Pro 1000 .....
Dedicated to 9mm, works fine, LOTS of personal modifications, some other mfgr's. parts in places, some hand made, got rid of all the cheap dimestore hardware that Lee cuts corners with. First thing to go was the lamp switch chain !(case feed option installed)

Dillon SDB.....
.45 ACP & 10MM, press works well, BUT.....physically too small if you have medium or larger hands, a "pinch-o-matic" for some people, the propriatary dies are fine, but inconvienient. It is an excellent press for .32 auto & .380.
SORELY needs a case feed system !

Dillon XL650 w/casefeeder....
9mm, .38 Super, .40 S&W, 10MM, .44 Mag, .204 Ruger, .223 Rem.
Excellent press, too bad the case feeder isn't up to the quality of the other Dillon products. I load a LOT of ammo on this machine, usually the only real fault of the press is the "Merry-Go-Round" priming system, I much prefer the slider as used on the 550 & 1050 much better.

Dillon 1050 (not super model)....
9mm, .38 Super, .45 ACP, .44 AutoMag
Usually set up in .45 auto, you get tired or run out of components before the machine will call it quits ! Had a primer feed/timing issue due to worn out springs, other than that, had primers not seated deep enough due to a pivot screw backing out, BOTH issues should have been caught by me, but was a bit lax in the PM dept. My fault, not the machines, I've loaded well over 100K of .45 auto & at least 2K of AutoMag on this press.....and I got it USED !
Only real failure was the switch for the case feeder.( $1.49 @ Ace Hdwe.)

Dillon "525" (personal designation)
This started life as a Dillon 450 & has been updated to ALMOST 550 specs. I didn't change over to the floppy toolhead, as I load my varmit rifle ammo on this one, as well as all rimmed revolver calibers, big bore rifle, & anything else that I need only some of the time.
This press has been in service since about 1984(?) and with the updates has served very well over the years. Wouldn't even hazzard a guess as to how much ammo has been loaded on this machine. I'd recomend a 550 to anybody that needs a fair or larger quantity of ammo, unless they really needed a higher output machine, most beginners won't.
Every problem that I've had with this machine was due to operator error.....(!)

Other presses: Lyman Spar-T turret press, it was the pre-Dillon 450 press. It's currerntly on loan to a beginning loader that is only doing .40 S&W, being taught carefull & precise.
There's also a Bonanza Co-Ax & a RCBS RockChucker in reserve, as they don't get used unless I'm swaging bullets or reforming cases. They are now my special use presses, the 'Chucker was just recently fitted with the powered Dillon case trimmer, went thru about 75-80 lbs. of once fired .223, couldn't see doing that on the Forester hand crank !
I've also use a Hornady L-n-L that a friend has set up in 10MM, it's different than the Dillons, but it seems to be a decent press. I used it with him standing by, pointing out the tricks of operating, as he's also made mods to make it run better.

All that said, I use more Lee dies than most any others at this time, before anybody comments, virtually ALL of my die "sets" are mixed from various mfgr's. (except the Dillon SDB). I use dies from Dillon, RCBS, Lyman, Lee, Herters(!), Redding, Hornady, Bonanza & probably a few others I can't think of right now. Including a few home made special application dies that couldn't be bought. (I've been doing this a LONG time)
Just for the record....The fully automated CAMDEX machines that are capable of over 4K/hr of 9mm , .40 or .45 ACP, a bit less in longer cases, come factory set-up with LEE dies ! This isn't a cost issue, die prices aren't really much of a consideration on a machine that retails for almost $40K at last check !
They use Lee dies because they WORK.
Honestly, there really isn't much in the reloading area that's junk any more, it got eliminated.
And ALL of my machines are modified in one way or another, to work around their or my personal quirks &/or needs.
Praise be the man who standardized the 7/8-14 threads !

uncle albert

unclebob
08-23-2010, 07:00
What have you found wrong with the 650 case feeder?

VN350X10
08-24-2010, 20:31
unclebob.....

PM sent.

uncle albert

unclebob
08-24-2010, 21:10
unclebob.....

PM sent.

uncle albert

PM sent back.

ron59
08-24-2010, 21:14
unclebob.....

PM sent.

uncle albert

Was this not something that could be discussed in the thread? I'm thinking of a 650 with casefeeder, if there's issues it would be nice to know about it ?

unclebob
08-25-2010, 09:16
Was this not something that could be discussed in the thread? I'm thinking of a 650 with casefeeder, if there's issues it would be nice to know about it ?

Well it was just two great minds getting together,:whistling: well maybe just one. (No Jack its not me.) And discussing his problem with the case feeder. He has the problem with 40s&w when it comes out the feeder into the funnel too go down the brass tube, that some times it well bridge and brass well start going every where until you stop it. I was saying that I had that problem with 9mm.It is something that does not happen all the time and all types of brass 9mm,40, 45 etc. His is 40 and mine is 9mm.
But this does happen too some people and I guess does not happen too all the people? It could happen today and not happen again for 6 months. Since the case feeder on the 550,650 and 1050 are all the same. And the LNL has the same design as the Dillon. You many or may not have the same problem if you what too call it a problem its just a nuisance at times. Your just clear the jam. Throw the cases back into the feeder turn it back on and start loading again.
I also told him that I did not have the problem with the 9mm using the old style funnel that used the adaptor in the funnel. But it was a pain when you wanted too load something else and you had too take that adaptor out. So I got the new style funnel. It is easier too deal with the sometime brass jam than changing out the adaptor.

ron59
08-25-2010, 11:04
Well it was just two great minds getting together,:whistling: well maybe just one. (No Jack its not me.) And discussing his problem with the case feeder. He has the problem with 40s&w when it comes out the feeder into the funnel too go down the brass tube, that some times it well bridge and brass well start going every where until you stop it. I was saying that I had that problem with 9mm.It is something that does not happen all the time and all types of brass 9mm,40, 45 etc. His is 40 and mine is 9mm.
But this does happen too some people and I guess does not happen too all the people? It could happen today and not happen again for 6 months. Since the case feeder on the 550,650 and 1050 are all the same. And the LNL has the same design as the Dillon. You many or may not have the same problem if you what too call it a problem its just a nuisance at times. Your just clear the jam. Throw the cases back into the feeder turn it back on and start loading again.
I also told him that I did not have the problem with the 9mm using the old style funnel that used the adaptor in the funnel. But it was a pain when you wanted too load something else and you had too take that adaptor out. So I got the new style funnel. It is easier too deal with the sometime brass jam than changing out the adaptor.

Excellent info, thank you for sharing.