Whaddya do when you cant find load data? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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wongman1
08-24-2010, 10:49
So Im about to load my very first batch of 9mm on my new LnL. Ive setup my dies with Hornady xtp hp bullets and will run about 25 of them at different gr's and test em at the range. cci primers, win cases, unique powder.

In the meantime, Ive just ordered 2000 Armscor 9mm 124gr fmj bullets. I read a lot of good things about their projectiles, ammo, and guns. Hopefully I wont regret it. Of course I will have to readjust some dies and the powder drop. Unfortunately, I cant find any load data. Ive called Armscor in Nevada and the guy was helpful by saying to use load data for a similar type bullet.

So my questions are:
1. Does anyone have experience with Armscor projectiles. If so, do you have 9mm 124gr load data?

2. Is using a similar bullet type acceptable practice for non published load data? If not, what do you do?

Sorry for the noob questions, I thought I done the homework before posting. Thx!!!

Lethaltxn
08-24-2010, 10:52
I FREAK OUT!!!
http://lupusranting.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/freakout.jpg

04gtmustang
08-24-2010, 10:54
So Im about to load my very first batch of 9mm on my new LnL. Ive setup my dies with Hornady xtp hp bullets and will run about 25 of them at different gr's and test em at the range. cci primers, win cases, unique powder.

In the meantime, Ive just ordered 2000 Armscor 9mm 124gr fmj bullets. I read a lot of good things about their projectiles, ammo, and guns. Hopefully I wont regret it. Of course I will have to readjust some dies and the powder drop. Unfortunately, I cant find any load data. Ive called Armscor in Nevada and the guy was helpful by saying to use load data for a similar type bullet.

So my questions are:
1. Does anyone have experience with Armscor projectiles. If so, do you have 9mm 124gr load data?

2. Is using a similar bullet type acceptable practice for non published load data? If not, what do you do?

Sorry for the noob questions, I thought I done the homework before posting. Thx!!!

guesstimate hahaha jk jk dont do that lol

PCJim
08-24-2010, 10:54
I'm not familiar with those projectiles, so I cannot comment on them. As for the load data, what their representative told you is correct. Use load data for a similar composition/weight/profile projectile, obviously at the starting load (10% reduction if only max data is provided). Use the same COL as given in the load data. Work them up to find a comfortable, safe loading for your needs.

fredj338
08-24-2010, 11:01
2. Is using a similar bullet type acceptable practice for non published load data? If not, what do you do?

Sorry for the noob questions, I thought I done the homework before posting. Thx!!!
Welcome to the handloading club! You have just moved passed the casual reloader status. Unless one has quite a bit of money, using printed data exactly as is means using top shelf components. Most lead bullet users are always on their own when it comes to OAL & charge wts.
Match the bullet wt & shape as close as possible to printed data & work up the load. Keep in mind that lead bullets use less powder than jacketed of sam weights. It's always safe to use heavier bullet data for lighter bullets, if one can't find any data for a given bullet.

XDRoX
08-24-2010, 11:18
Whaddya do when you cant find load data?

I ask Fred.

wongman1
08-24-2010, 12:29
Thanks fella's... all great ideas... too bad no one has experience with Armscor. Supposedly, they are the largest ammo manufactuer in southeast asia.
http://www.armscor.net/about.html

PCJim
08-24-2010, 12:53
Wongman, that's an interesting bit of history regarding Rock Island Armory.

I want to restress that when adapting comparable loads, you use similar bullets, ie. jacketed for jacketed, lead for lead, obviously equal weights, and similar profiles for your COL (FMJ for FMJ, JHP for JHP). You should get the idea.

You don't want to use jacketed data for lead bullets. You also do not want to use JHP COL for FMJs as the FMJs are a longer profile. Seating a FMJ to JHP COL would reduce available case volume, greatly increasing pressures.

wongman1
08-24-2010, 13:41
Wongman, that's an interesting bit of history regarding Rock Island Armory.

I want to restress that when adapting comparable loads, you use similar bullets, ie. jacketed for jacketed, lead for lead, obviously equal weights, and similar profiles for your COL (FMJ for FMJ, JHP for JHP). You should get the idea.

You don't want to use jacketed data for lead bullets. You also do not want to use JHP COL for FMJs as the FMJs are a longer profile. Seating a FMJ to JHP COL would reduce available case volume, greatly increasing pressures.

Thanks PCJim... I totally understand about matching bullet for bullet.

Ya, that was interesting read on rock island (US version of Armscor). Too bad 90% what I can find on them is in Tagalog. I Picked up 2000 of the 9mm fmj for 150 delivered. Not bad pricing, I think. It was that or Berrys plated stuff (which I will try next time).

FLSlim
08-24-2010, 14:27
FL primaries today, and I cast my vote for Fredj (even if he isn't a Floridian) and PCJim. Do as they say and you'll be a happy reloader, wongman.

jmorris
08-24-2010, 15:08
Whaddya do when you cant find load data?

Find something close then start low and work up.

I know, the range is 4 days drive away and it takes forever. Just take a press, chronograph, and all the other stuff with you.

http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv5/qvideo/gn/3533895716_0a7f11a958.jpg

herdingcats
08-24-2010, 15:19
I load 10 cartridges at each gr weight starting at the lowest match (JHP to JHP, etc). So if data shows a safe range of 6.4 gr to 7.2 gr for your type of projectile, then I build 10 at 6.4 gr, 10 at 6.5 gr, and so forth all the way up to 7.2 gr. That way you don't need loading equip at the range (though if my equip was more mobile, that would be cool).

Then use a chrono set-up to see what you're getting out of each load until you get to a FPS that matches or approaches the highest match that you find in other similar load data... no matter what you read in any book, you just found your load maximum.

IndyGunFreak
08-24-2010, 15:32
Borrow one of Jack's guns.... :)

seriously.. I agree w/ jmorris

shotgunred
08-24-2010, 15:44
Well a quick trip to their web site shows you are buying 124 gr fmj that they max out at 1125 FPS.
You didn't list a powder. So first you need to pick a powder and then just find some load data for 124 gr FMJ.

WAY#1. Start 10% less than max and work up from there to find and accurate load without pressure signs.

WAY#. Start a little above bottom and work your way up. looking for gun function and accurate load without pressure signs.

SO lets say my data says WSF From 4.7 grains to 5.3 grains.
I loaded 25 rounds of 4.7; 5.0;5.2 each. i started with the 4.7 and shot 10 off the bench. then 5.0 and 5.2.
I then shot 5 round groups of each at 25, 50 and 75 feet.
After comparing them all and measuring the groups I chose the most accurate for me and my gun. If I had a crono I would have used it during the first 10 rounds. Just for fun lets say I liked 5.0 best. I then did the same thing with 4.9 : 5.0 :5.1.
At the end of that I chose the load I was going to use and loaded up a few hundred to run the gun with.

Not the only way or even the best but it works for me.

Colorado4Wheel
08-24-2010, 16:47
If you can't find load data for a 124 gr bullet and Unique your not trying very hard.

wongman1
08-24-2010, 18:22
If you can't find load data for a 124 gr bullet and Unique your not trying very hard.


Theres plenty of load data for 124gr and unique. I just wasnt clear if it had to be specific for a bullet brand. I am clear now after several peeps posted their replies. Theres a lot of info to be had out there from reputable sources, that its overwhelming. Ive also been told that its best to use load data from the bullet manufactuer, while others have said to use the data from the powder people. It makes a noob believe that matching brands is important, which it is not, kind of. I have the Lee, Hornady, and 9mm loadbooks. All of them have different loads with different components. For you all experienced loaders, deciphering it may be easy. But dont worry, I will get there eventually.

wongman1
08-24-2010, 18:43
Well a quick trip to their web site shows you are buying 124 gr fmj that they max out at 1125 FPS.
You didn't list a powder. So first you need to pick a powder and then just find some load data for 124 gr FMJ.

WAY#1. Start 10% less than max and work up from there to find and accurate load without pressure signs.

WAY#. Start a little above bottom and work your way up. looking for gun function and accurate load without pressure signs.

SO lets say my data says WSF From 4.7 grains to 5.3 grains.
I loaded 25 rounds of 4.7; 5.0;5.2 each. i started with the 4.7 and shot 10 off the bench. then 5.0 and 5.2.
I then shot 5 round groups of each at 25, 50 and 75 feet.
After comparing them all and measuring the groups I chose the most accurate for me and my gun. If I had a crono I would have used it during the first 10 rounds. Just for fun lets say I liked 5.0 best. I then did the same thing with 4.9 : 5.0 :5.1.
At the end of that I chose the load I was going to use and loaded up a few hundred to run the gun with.

Not the only way or even the best but it works for me.

Thats great info.
I did come across that info on their website, btw its 1090fps for 124 fmj.
http://www.armscor.com.ph/cfp_9mm.htm

But a noob running across this looking for 'complete' load data would not know how to deciper this chart or what to do with that info. I would assume that 1090 is max fps. Wheres the COAL and amount of powder to use? After your explanation, I think I undstand now how to use that info in that chart - use the powder load data to slowly reach the optimum fps for your particular gun.

Noobs, until schooled properly, assume there is a one stop chart for all this data. Im understanding know there are just too many variables to have in 1 chart. Im also understanding that theres much more todo after setting up the press and then punching out 1000's of rounds, like actually finding a load that works for you gun - that part really isnt the known part when first starting out.

Thanks for your method of working up a load. That helps a lot as there really isnt clear documentation out there in internet world... Things are starting to click now...:brickwall:

Colorado4Wheel
08-24-2010, 18:45
Theres plenty of load data for 124gr and unique. I just wasnt clear if it had to be specific for a bullet brand. I am clear now after several peeps posted their replies. Theres a lot of info to be had out there from reputable sources, that its overwhelming. Ive also been told that its best to use load data from the bullet manufactuer, while others have said to use the data from the powder people. It makes a noob believe that matching brands is important, which it is not, kind of. I have the Lee, Hornady, and 9mm loadbooks. All of them have different loads with different components. For you all experienced loaders, deciphering it may be easy. But dont worry, I will get there eventually.

It's all seems overwhelming. Bullet manfactures don't ussually give data. Only some of the bigger ones. My method is a little different then what others posted. Especially for working up loads that truely have no real load data. For instance. Solo 1000 has no data for my 105gr lead .380 loading. But I was able to find some data that was above and below the weight of the bullet I needed to use. Using starting loads I was able to guess at a good starting load for my 105 gr Lead bullet. Basically, I reduced the load the same % as the other lead loads I did have data for. I started a little lower then that and then tested just 5 for function. Thoose 5 cycled the gun very slowly compared to factory loads. Thats pretty common for a true "starting load". I added just .1gr (this is .380 after all) and the gun cycled a lot better but was still soft. I could add another .1 grain but for that .380 it's really not worth the trouble so I am done.

wongman1
08-24-2010, 18:45
I load 10 cartridges at each gr weight starting at the lowest match (JHP to JHP, etc). So if data shows a safe range of 6.4 gr to 7.2 gr for your type of projectile, then I build 10 at 6.4 gr, 10 at 6.5 gr, and so forth all the way up to 7.2 gr. That way you don't need loading equip at the range (though if my equip was more mobile, that would be cool).

Then use a chrono set-up to see what you're getting out of each load until you get to a FPS that matches or approaches the highest match that you find in other similar load data... no matter what you read in any book, you just found your load maximum.


Good info! Thanks. Looks I need to get a chrony now...

fredj338
08-24-2010, 22:25
Theres plenty of load data for 124gr and unique. I just wasnt clear if it had to be specific for a bullet brand. I am clear now after several peeps posted their replies. Theres a lot of info to be had out there from reputable sources, that its overwhelming. Ive also been told that its best to use load data from the bullet manufactuer, while others have said to use the data from the powder people. It makes a noob believe that matching brands is important, which it is not, kind of. I have the Lee, Hornady, and 9mm loadbooks. All of them have different loads with different components. For you all experienced loaders, deciphering it may be easy. But dont worry, I will get there eventually.
Well it depends. Not all 124gr bullets are the same. The XTP tends to load short in some guns due to it's sharp TC profile. The RGS has a short driving band& the bullet is long for it's weight, so they aren't just plug & play regardless fo whos data you use. Matching the bullet profile is about the best you can do. There are a lot of bullets manuf out there & there is no data for them, so matching construction & profile w/ printed data gets you in the ball park & then work up the load.
FWIW, I NEVER use starting data, especially in semiautos. Rarely will the powder burn efficently (unburnt powder) or give best accuaracy (unburnt powder). So I start w/ AVERAGE middle data form 3 sources. Then load up in 0.1gr increments to max or load down if I am looking for soft loads for a young or newb shooter. Load no more than 10rds for each charge wt (I hate pulling bullets) & note functioning, accuarcy & pressure signs or lack of.

wongman1
08-25-2010, 10:30
note functioning, accuarcy & pressure signs or lack of.

Im assuming pressure signs are bulging, cracks, anything else? What are signs of 'lack' of pressure....bullet not coming out?

I think i read in the Lee load book, that you cant really measure pressure unless you have expensive equipment like the ones manufactureres have?

NonPCnraRN
08-25-2010, 11:18
If you look for traditional signs of pressure for rifle cartridges in reloading for pistol cartridges you may have a KABOOM before you see "pressure signs". I have also found that data for jacketed bullets can be used for hardcast bullets of similar shape ie profile, bearing surface, seating depth, etc. The hardcast bullets do not have the same resistance traveling down the bore that jacketed bullets do. Cast bullets using a soft alloy or swaged bullets will need a lower velocity to keep from leading. If your bullet resembles another for which there is loading data start in the middle range as prevously suggested. You should also check bullet diameter. I am not that familiar with 9mm bullets but for the 45 ACP, bullets come in .451" and .452" diameters. Obviously a .452" inch bullet will create more pressure than a .451" bullet if both are jacketed. Typically cast bullets are sized .001" larger than jacketed bullets. Here is the web page for the Hodgdon Reloaders Manual. In the box "type" choose pistol and in the box "catridge" choose 9mm Luger. Scroll down to the 125 gr SIE FMJ (Sierra) data. http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

herdingcats
08-25-2010, 11:21
That's all correct, though if you're getting case cracks from new or once-fired cases, you may be FAR over appropriate pressure limits. Another witchcraft way of checking pressures is to look for "pancaked" (flatened) primers. If your primers are pancaked or if they are getting pierced by the firing pin, these are also some mumbo-jumbo ways of noting too much pressure.

Lack of pressure: if the bullets are not coming out, you're way under appropriate pressures. The better first sign of low pressures is really that your slide does not function. So if you're shooting and the case won't eject properly, you don't have usable pressures.

So why was I using "witchcraft" and "mumbo jumbo" to describe pressure signs like primer pancaking, case splits, etc? It turns out you were right about the pressure equipment question. Without the expensive pressure equipment you referred to (which, yes, is the only definitive way to know what kind of pressures you're getting), the next best way to watch your pressures is what I mentioned in a previous post: chrono equipment. It is the only data driven sign of what is happening with your loads and end results. There are, of course, variables other than gun powder gr weight that determine a load's pressure such as overcrimpin and improper bullet seating depths (bullets are too deep) that can cause higher/lower pressures. But even these variables will show themselves when you're using a chrono (low charge weights that have FPS measurements that are WAY faster than published numbers are a sign that other variables are fouled). Further, with a chrono you'll start to find out that some powders don't provide any more FPS advantage once a certain amount of powder is used. For example, say you're loading up from 6.4gr of something, up to 7.2gr. You may find out that the FPS stops climbing at 6.9gr. And if that's true, loading past 6.9 gr is only adding pressure (and danger), while not providing any benefit. And last, you'll need to understand that this is all a mix of science and art. The published pressures are collected at certain altitudes, humidities and temperatures that will likly not match yours. Further, the FPS from published data will be taken from guns that are not yours and may have barrels that are longer or shorter than yours, etc. All these variables can have an impact on your comparative end results. So just keep the Art of this in mind as you review the data-driven science.

Message: get a chrono.

Last but not least: I'd like to give a little advice here for new loaders. So many shooters seem to want faster FPS combined with heavier bullets. I get that. But re-loading is no joke. For your own good, get this in your head: Higher bullet weights = a more severe pressure curve. What does that mean? It means that if your powder-drop adds a little extra powder when you're loading 115gr bullets in a 9mm, that's no big deal because the pressure will not climb severely on the pressure curve because pressure is a byproduct of the primer, powder and bullet gr weight (and chamber size, barrel length and etc)... so, the lighter the bullet, the less impact the other two have (powder and primer). But if the powder-drop over-drops when loading a 147gr bullet, you may have inadvertantly just loaded the cartridge that will blow your gun and maybe hurt/kill someone (you? your family member? friends?). So unless you use a powder trickle and individually measure each case load, it may not be all that safe to load to maximum pressures when using heavier bullets.

Im assuming pressure signs are bulging, cracks, anything else? What are signs of 'lack' of pressure....bullet not coming out?

I think i read in the Lee load book, that you cant really measure pressure unless you have expensive equipment like the ones manufactureres have?

fredj338
08-25-2010, 13:19
If you look for traditional signs of pressure for rifle cartridges in reloading for pistol cartridges you may have a KABOOM before you see "pressure signs". I have also found that data for jacketed bullets can be used for hardcast bullets of similar shape ie profile, bearing surface, seating depth, etc. The hardcast bullets do not have the same resistance traveling down the bore that jacketed bullets do. Cast bullets using a soft alloy or swaged bullets will need a lower velocity to keep from leading. If your bullet resembles another for which there is loading data start in the middle range as prevously suggested. You should also check bullet diameter. I am not that familiar with 9mm bullets but for the 45 ACP, bullets come in .451" and .452" diameters. Obviously a .452" inch bullet will create more pressure than a .451" bullet if both are jacketed. Typically cast bullets are sized .001" larger than jacketed bullets. Here is the web page for the Hodgdon Reloaders Manual. In the box "type" choose pistol and in the box "catridge" choose 9mm Luger. Scroll down to the 125 gr SIE FMJ (Sierra) data. http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp
Well yes & no. Pressure signs in rev rounds are easier to see than pistol rounds. Cases sticking, excessive primer flattening are easy to see & mean you are in the danger zone, but not KB zone. In pistols, a bit tougher. Excessive flattened primers is still a valid observation. Look also for rim damage by the extractor & case head marking/wiping by the slide recoil shield. Caes can split at the mouthg or even vert body splits & have nothing to do witgh pressures, just poor or weak brass.
Too low, yeah, bullets not getting to the target is obvious but lots of unburned powder is a good indicator & well as bullet key holing (low vel). FWIW, I still don't buy the lead bullets have less friction statement. They often show sim pressures & vel using less powder. That tells me slightly higher pressures, but unless someone wants to donate pressure equip for me to test w/ I can only go by the manuf pressure data. Less friction = less pressure = lower vel, at least w/ rifle bullets. I see no reason to think handguns are diff.:dunno:

wongman1
08-28-2010, 08:36
Great info Fred!

So Im totally getting the idea of working up your loads slowly. At what point do I start changing the COAL? Theres so many variables, its like a balancing act.

At what point should I get a chono or is even necessary? Should I just wait another month to get one before I even start testing loads? I thought I could just get by with some bench rests\bags to just test for accuracy at different ranges.

Im starting to see the importance of sticking with same available components so you dont have to keep reworking the the optimum load for your gun.

fredj338
08-28-2010, 08:49
Great info Fred!

So Im totally getting the idea of working up your loads slowly. At what point do I start changing the COAL? Theres so many variables, its like a balancing act.

At what point should I get a chono or is even necessary? Should I just wait another month to get one before I even start testing loads? I thought I could just get by with some bench rests\bags to just test for accuracy at different ranges.

Im starting to see the importance of sticking with same available components so you dont have to keep reworking the the optimum load for your gun.

For a semiauto, your OAL is actually your first consideration. The round must fit the chamber & allow proper cycling through the mag. Make a dummy round to the OAL, no powder, I load as long as the bullet will allow & still fit into the mag. Drop that empty into the chamber to make sure it doesn't hit rifling. Put the round in the mag & cycle it by hand, it shoudl feed. That is your test OAL. It can be modified slightly once you actually start shooting if feeding isn't perfect.
I use a chrono the entire time I am testing. It shows you where a load is still gaining pressure, where it platues (meaning you probably have reach useable max) & vel stop increasing or slows down. With most powder, vel increases are incremental w/ teh powder charge. You should see a pattern of vel increase per 0.1gr of pwoder. When it stops or takes a huge jump, you may be in the red zone.
I load in small 5-10rd lots, 0.1gr per lot for fast-medium burners & 0.2gr for slow burners. Shoot them over the chrony while I am bench testing for accuracy. Once you have a load worked up, WRITE IT DOWN. Then if you switch components, you will have to drop 5% & work it back up, but reality, I have only found the need to do that w/ loads that are alrteady pushing max. Stay at midrange loads & swapping case or primer manuf won't affect things much. Even swapping a diff manuf same weight/type bullet will not have any disasterous effect on pressure but accuracy may not be what the original load was. All thing affect accuracy, even in handguns.

wongman1
08-30-2010, 11:06
For a semiauto, your OAL is actually your first consideration. The round must fit the chamber & allow proper cycling through the mag. Make a dummy round to the OAL, no powder, I load as long as the bullet will allow & still fit into the mag. Drop that empty into the chamber to make sure it doesn't hit rifling. Put the round in the mag & cycle it by hand, it shoudl feed. That is your test OAL. It can be modified slightly once you actually start shooting if feeding isn't perfect.
I use a chrono the entire time I am testing. It shows you where a load is still gaining pressure, where it platues (meaning you probably have reach useable max) & vel stop increasing or slows down. With most powder, vel increases are incremental w/ teh powder charge. You should see a pattern of vel increase per 0.1gr of pwoder. When it stops or takes a huge jump, you may be in the red zone.
I load in small 5-10rd lots, 0.1gr per lot for fast-medium burners & 0.2gr for slow burners. Shoot them over the chrony while I am bench testing for accuracy. Once you have a load worked up, WRITE IT DOWN. Then if you switch components, you will have to drop 5% & work it back up, but reality, I have only found the need to do that w/ loads that are alrteady pushing max. Stay at midrange loads & swapping case or primer manuf won't affect things much. Even swapping a diff manuf same weight/type bullet will not have any disasterous effect on pressure but accuracy may not be what the original load was. All thing affect accuracy, even in handguns.

Fred.. thanks again for the great tips and help. Yes, you are very correct, OAL is one of the first considerations to your load - for feeding considerations thru the gun. I was kinda referring to changing the oal to modify pressure, but you probably would do other things first and not oal... like change amount of powder.

So you talked me into getting a chono now. Thanks for the great tips on that. Which one do you use? Im thinkin of getting a cheapy Chrony for like $50-60 to start, I hear that you need bright sun for it to be accurate. Im also reading that the CED M2 is the way to go.. but thats 2 bills.

Milltown
08-30-2010, 15:15
I run into this owning a beowulf and trying different powders and cast bullets. I had lil gun and couldn't find data for my bullet weight, so I just found the closest data and reduced it by over 20% to be on the safe side (27 grains instead of 35). Went out shot a few and they worked great and even cycled the action. Next time I will bump up a grain and check for signs of over pressure in steps until I hopefully reach 30 grain and then I'll probably stop or use a smaller increment.

A chronograph also helps.

Just start small and work yourself up slow, you may want to try increments 1/10ths of grains to be safe.

fredj338
08-31-2010, 02:06
Fred.. thanks again for the great tips and help. Yes, you are very correct, OAL is one of the first considerations to your load - for feeding considerations thru the gun. I was kinda referring to changing the oal to modify pressure, but you probably would do other things first and not oal... like change amount of powder.

So you talked me into getting a chono now. Thanks for the great tips on that. Which one do you use? Im thinkin of getting a cheapy Chrony for like $50-60 to start, I hear that you need bright sun for it to be accurate. Im also reading that the CED M2 is the way to go.. but thats 2 bills.
If you load in the middle of the data, small changes in OAL will not affect pressures w/ most powders. A 0.01" change in OAL will most likely not even register as a vel/pressure increase (all else being the same, higher vel=higher pressrues). All calibers are diff, but as an expample:
I tested a 45acp load using 245grLSWCHP o/ a charge of Unique. One bullet seated to max OAL of 1.275" the other @ 1.20". The shorter OAL produced almost 100fps more vel. In the 45acp, using a med burner like Unqiue, that is a huge jump into +P range. Using a faster powder, the increase would likely be higher.
I am NOT a fan of the Chrony, it's the Lee of chronographs. Yes, they work, but you have to get everything just right. The screens are probably the worst I have shot over. I have an Oehler, but they are stupidly expensive today, also a PACT (mediocre screens). The CED is a nice unit, good screens & easy to setup & use. It's the only other one I would consider currently.

PCJim
08-31-2010, 07:38
Wongman, my opinion of the Chrony line is different from Fred's, although he probably uses his chronograph a lot more than I do. I have a Chrony Beta Master and have not had any problems with it, other than an ill fated attempt to measure some .380 rounds with dim light in my garage at close range. (It didn't register the shots until I placed a 75w light directly over the unit.) That was asking for a bit much from the unit, in the little bit of side light that was available. Other than that, the unit performs as it should. I agree the screens could be of much better design, but with care they do the job.

One consideration on any chronograph is that you will use it a lot when you first purchase it. If you are like most, it will thereafter get little use. The reason - you test your development loads and stick with the ones you really like. Once you've committed to that load recipe, you don't need to retest it over and over. My chrony gets used maybe 3-4 times a year now, and I've had it for a little over two years.

Personally, I don't feel there is a need to spend a lot of money on a chronograph that will not be used a lot. Don't get me wrong, there is definitely a good use for them as a reloading tool. It just doesn't see the use that a good press will.

fredj338
08-31-2010, 12:08
Wongman, my opinion of the Chrony line is different from Fred's, although he probably uses his chronograph a lot more than I do. I have a Chrony Beta Master and have not had any problems with it, other than an ill fated attempt to measure some .380 rounds with dim light in my garage at close range. (It didn't register the shots until I placed a 75w light directly over the unit.) That was asking for a bit much from the unit, in the little bit of side light that was available. Other than that, the unit performs as it should. I agree the screens could be of much better design, but with care they do the job.

One consideration on any chronograph is that you will use it a lot when you first purchase it. If you are like most, it will thereafter get little use. The reason - you test your development loads and stick with the ones you really like. Once you've committed to that load recipe, you don't need to retest it over and over. My chrony gets used maybe 3-4 times a year now, and I've had it for a little over two years.

Personally, I don't feel there is a need to spend a lot of money on a chronograph that will not be used a lot. Don't get me wrong, there is definitely a good use for them as a reloading tool. It just doesn't see the use that a good press will.
It may be the MC unit I have worked w/ is faulty, but others have concurred, The screens are very finciky, You must shoot directly over them, no more than 8" high. One reason so many Chronys get shot, you keep getting lower & lower to get a reading. The diff between the CBM & the CED isn't really that much money & my time is worth something, as I have to drive 3hrs to shoot & test ammo.:crying:

wongman1
08-31-2010, 14:25
It may be the MC unit I have worked w/ is faulty, but others have concurred, The screens are very finciky, You must shoot directly over them, no more than 8" high. One reason so many Chronys get shot, you keep getting lower & lower to get a reading. The diff between the CBM & the CED isn't really that much money & my time is worth something, as I have to drive 3hrs to shoot & test ammo.:crying:


Well after few hours of googling and reading reviews, I really couldnt find too many negatives on the Competition Electronics ProChrono Digital Chronograph-
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=852429

Im gonna pick this up with a $10 discount and also a bullet puller to check my crimp or should I say taper (on 9mm).

wongman1
08-31-2010, 14:35
Wongman, my opinion of the Chrony line is different from Fred's, although he probably uses his chronograph a lot more than I do. I have a Chrony Beta Master and have not had any problems with it, other than an ill fated attempt to measure some .380 rounds with dim light in my garage at close range. (It didn't register the shots until I placed a 75w light directly over the unit.) That was asking for a bit much from the unit, in the little bit of side light that was available. Other than that, the unit performs as it should. I agree the screens could be of much better design, but with care they do the job.

One consideration on any chronograph is that you will use it a lot when you first purchase it. If you are like most, it will thereafter get little use. The reason - you test your development loads and stick with the ones you really like. Once you've committed to that load recipe, you don't need to retest it over and over. My chrony gets used maybe 3-4 times a year now, and I've had it for a little over two years.

Personally, I don't feel there is a need to spend a lot of money on a chronograph that will not be used a lot. Don't get me wrong, there is definitely a good use for them as a reloading tool. It just doesn't see the use that a good press will.


Thanks PCJim! After much review, I decided on the Competition Electronics ProChrono Digital Chronograph. The reviews were 50\50 on the Chrony's....

And yes, I will be one of those types, who finds my load and will stick with it. Thus Im realizing now that I need to stick with components that I can get on a consistantly regular basis (unlike my first batch of 2k of Armscor bullets).

Now if there was just one chart with all the various combinations of all the different components, I wouldnt even need a chrono. Maybe if I setup an interactive website...hmmm.. maybe I could be shooting trap off the port side of my future yacht soon....:cool:

wongman1
08-31-2010, 14:38
I run into this owning a beowulf and trying different powders and cast bullets. I had lil gun and couldn't find data for my bullet weight, so I just found the closest data and reduced it by over 20% to be on the safe side (27 grains instead of 35). Went out shot a few and they worked great and even cycled the action. Next time I will bump up a grain and check for signs of over pressure in steps until I hopefully reach 30 grain and then I'll probably stop or use a smaller increment.

A chronograph also helps.

Just start small and work yourself up slow, you may want to try increments 1/10ths of grains to be safe.


Thanks Milltown... great advice for a noob!

wongman1
08-31-2010, 14:39
If you load in the middle of the data, small changes in OAL will not affect pressures w/ most powders. A 0.01" change in OAL will most likely not even register as a vel/pressure increase (all else being the same, higher vel=higher pressrues). All calibers are diff, but as an expample:
I tested a 45acp load using 245grLSWCHP o/ a charge of Unique. One bullet seated to max OAL of 1.275" the other @ 1.20". The shorter OAL produced almost 100fps more vel. In the 45acp, using a med burner like Unqiue, that is a huge jump into +P range. Using a faster powder, the increase would likely be higher.
I am NOT a fan of the Chrony, it's the Lee of chronographs. Yes, they work, but you have to get everything just right. The screens are probably the worst I have shot over. I have an Oehler, but they are stupidly expensive today, also a PACT (mediocre screens). The CED is a nice unit, good screens & easy to setup & use. It's the only other one I would consider currently.


Thanks again Fred! Good info on oal. Every bit of data helps a noob like myself.

shotgunred
08-31-2010, 17:29
I ask Fred.

If you want to be lazy jump over to brian enos and ask.

fredj338
08-31-2010, 18:12
Well after few hours of googling and reading reviews, I really couldnt find too many negatives on the Competition Electronics ProChrono Digital Chronograph-
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=852429

Im gonna pick this up with a $10 discount and also a bullet puller to check my crimp or should I say taper (on 9mm).
Only real neg, you are shooting at the guts of you chrono!:wow: That even makes me nervous. You will eventually shoot it, I can almost guarantee it.:crying:

fredj338
08-31-2010, 18:13
If you want to be lazy jump over to brian enos and ask.
HA! Like those guys know more than many of us here? Me thinks not!:yawn:

PCJim
08-31-2010, 20:27
Only real neg, you are shooting at the guts of you chrono!:wow: That even makes me nervous. You will eventually shoot it, I can almost guarantee it.:crying:

And on this point, I totally agree with Fred. Spend a bit more and get a unit that has a remote display!!!

Colorado4Wheel
08-31-2010, 20:40
And yes, I will be one of those types, who finds my load and will stick with it. Thus Im realizing now that I need to stick with components that I can get on a consistantly regular basis (unlike my first batch of 2k of Armscor bullets).


Forgive me if I have said this already.

In 9mm I can pretty much swap bullets of the same weight and not worry about it too much. Not using max loads of course. I can even use .38Super Bullets and it doesn't make that much a difference. It's nice to have to chrono to confirm this of course. You never want to just assume it doesn't matter. But I wouldn't worry about "sticking to one brand" if you find something that interest you or is a good price and just want to try something new. It's not that big a deal.

wongman1
09-01-2010, 12:12
Forgive me if I have said this already.

In 9mm I can pretty much swap bullets of the same weight and not worry about it too much. Not using max loads of course. I can even use .38Super Bullets and it doesn't make that much a difference. It's nice to have to chrono to confirm this of course. You never want to just assume it doesn't matter. But I wouldn't worry about "sticking to one brand" if you find something that interest you or is a good price and just want to try something new. It's not that big a deal.


4wheel- thanks for the re-confirmation. Information overload tends to make you make things more complicated than it really is. I wont worry so much about different brands, so long as the product is the same parameters as the load data, ie weight, oal, etc..

wongman1
09-01-2010, 12:14
And on this point, I totally agree with Fred. Spend a bit more and get a unit that has a remote display!!!

dam.. back to the drawing board...
you guys are gonna talk me into buyin a $200 CED M2 arent you's?:crying:

Colorado4Wheel
09-01-2010, 17:59
4wheel- thanks for the re-confirmation. Information overload tends to make you make things more complicated than it really is. I wont worry so much about different brands, so long as the product is the same parameters as the load data, ie weight, oal, etc..

Biggest issue is not using FMJ or JHP OAL interchangably. That won't work.

AZson
09-01-2010, 21:06
http://www.reloadammo.com/

9mmtupperware
09-01-2010, 21:29
I wouldn't pay attention to any of the previous posts the following video will show you everything you would ever need to know about reloading.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98I1i8Toj8E

on second thought maybe not

wongman1
09-01-2010, 21:33
http://www.reloadammo.com/

Thanks... I came across this load site amongst a few others. I just checked this one again and theres still no data for 9mm 124gr fmj or hp..oh well.

wongman1
09-01-2010, 21:38
I wouldn't pay attention to any of the previous posts the following video will show you everything you would ever need to know about reloading.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98I1i8Toj8E

on second thought maybe not


Very nice. Where do I get the DVD series?? Actually I just watched the video and I want my 2 minutes of my life back..thank you very little.:rofl:

fredj338
09-02-2010, 02:24
dam.. back to the drawing board...
you guys are gonna talk me into buyin a $200 CED M2 arent you's?:crying:
Here, saved you $10.
http://www.6mmbr.com/ballistics.html

wongman1
09-02-2010, 09:32
Here, saved you $10.
http://www.6mmbr.com/ballistics.html


Thanks Fred! Yur always looking out for us noobs. But unfortunately that link to the CED on 6mm.com is dead to purchase it. No worries, you talked me into getting the CED M2. I was goin to purchase it yesterday, but Midway had some Win 231 8lbs in stock and bought that instead...so the chrono will have to wait till next paycheck.. maybe..

tac_driver
09-03-2010, 16:12
Caliber 9MM Barrel Length : 4in Firearm: Glock 19
Load 3 *****
Date : 01/14/10 Temp : 50 Conditions : Sunny
Case : Winchester Crimp : 0.375 PF: 130
Trimmed : 0.751 Primer : WolfSP COL: 1.159
Powder : W231 Weight : 4.4 Shots: 5
Bullet : Berry's Weight : 124grs. BOAL: 0.587
Type : PRN
String: 20
LO 1040
HI 1066
AVG 1055
ES 25.87
SD 9.69

Berry's recommends using mid lead data to mid jacket data.
COL: 1.159 is the longest length that will drop in my
barrel and fall right out when inverted.
Use the advice of the person that said to make up
a dummy round to determine OAL.

fredj338
09-03-2010, 16:48
Caliber 9MM Barrel Length : 4in Firearm: Glock 19
Load 3 *****
Date : 01/14/10 Temp : 50 Conditions : Sunny
Case : Winchester Crimp : 0.375 PF: 130
Trimmed : 0.751 Primer : WolfSP COL: 1.159
Powder : W231 Weight : 4.4 Shots: 5
Bullet : Berry's Weight : 124grs. BOAL: 0.587
Type : PRN
String: 20
LO 1040
HI 1066
AVG 1055
ES 25.87
SD 9.69

Berry's recommends using mid lead data to mid jacket data.
COL: 1.159 is the longest length that will drop in my
barrel and fall right out when inverted.
Use the advice of the person that said to make up
a dummy round to determine OAL.
You also want to make sure you have enouhg bullet in the case to insure the bullet seats straight & stays there during cycling. In rifle, it's one caliber in depth as desireable. That isn't possible w/ many of the pistol bullets, so I am happy w/ 0.150" as a min.