Tell me why I should like 40 better than 9 [Archive] - Glock Talk

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KAK
08-25-2010, 18:04
I have been a 9mm guy for a long time. I really like the high capacity, Tell me why a 40 is a better choice for CCW.

This will be fun. :popcorn:

JK-linux
08-25-2010, 18:15
It's not unless you shoot more accurately with it, or your chosen 9mm is only capable of firing ammunition well under SAMMI standard pressure specifications.

legion3
08-25-2010, 18:29
The 40 makes a bigger hole that's all I can come up with, however, for CCW the 40 has other attributes that would not make it my caliber of choice.

So I can't help you much since I don't like the 40 better than the 9.

KAK
08-25-2010, 18:37
I was just thinking about the fact that most attacks occur at point blank range. At the range where accuracy no longer matters I feel like a larger bullet would stop the threat faster. I thought about making every shot count at that range.

I dont know. I guess Im thinking about getting 40s.
G22, 23, 27, PM40 for carry.

mikeyU
08-25-2010, 19:04
I like the .40 because it holds more rounds than a .45 with more power than a 9mm, you can get loads that mimic the .45 or 357 ballistically. There is alot of LE overrun ammo available for it.

Now you will have people saying the 9mm is better because all handgun rounds are about the same, ya I concur but there is more energy/ velocity out of certain .40 loads, when the chips are down I would like the extra power, if it helps me great, if not...it wont hurt. I like my .40's over my 9mm except for ammo cost, if you can train alot with a little more expensive ammo and be proficient with the .40, go for it, if not the 9mm will do fine in most self defense scenarios.

I dont even want to get into this, its mostly personal preference when it comes down to it, they both kill, use the search function and look at all of the other posts on this topic please

Daryl in Az
08-25-2010, 19:20
I won't tell you to carry a .40. Carry what works for you.

If you have to ask someone else to explain it, you likely won't understand anyway.

The .40 works fine for me, so if a 9mm works for you, then carry it.

Daryl

Trigger Finger
08-25-2010, 19:27
I agree with Daryl in Az. However I like the extra power!!! There are some people that say the 40 is only a little more powerful. I think it is 20 to 25% more powerful and that could make a difference.
They come in the same size gun as the 9mm and I would give up 1 or 2 rounds for more power. It is a LITTLE harder to shoot than the 9 but that just takes practice!

wrenrj1
08-25-2010, 19:33
Nothing matters if can't hit what you aim at. What ever accomplishes that task is best for you and determined by you. I do best with 9mm. Others will do best with .40 etc.

pangloss9
08-25-2010, 19:35
Stick with 9mm. Cheaper ammo = more practice = better shooting.

cmcinc
08-25-2010, 20:03
I won't tell you to carry a .40. Carry what works for you.

If you have to ask someone else to explain it, you likely won't understand anyway.

The .40 works fine for me, so if a 9mm works for you, then carry it.

Daryl

Agreed!

Brucev
08-25-2010, 21:23
I have had a boat load of 9mm and .45 ACP pistols. I am relatively new to .40 pistols. I had a borrowed P-226 which I liked, but not enough to buy. Found and bought a G-22RTF, because I liked it. Almost 2,000 rds. later, I think it is a excellent round. I like it better than the 9mm simply because I prefer a heavier bullet and a larger bore. I am not thrilled with the G-21. The G-22 offers excellent capacity, accuracy, power and a broad choice of bullet weight. What's not to like!

orangevol
08-25-2010, 21:28
I was just thinking about the fact that most attacks occur at point blank range. At the range where accuracy no longer matters I feel like a larger bullet would stop the threat faster. I thought about making every shot count at that range.

I dont know. I guess Im thinking about getting 40s.
G22, 23, 27, PM40 for carry.

A 9mm is 9mm a .40 S&W is 10mm. Bullet size is not the only factor, also consider the energy generated by the bullet. Most .40's generate higher energy partly due to greater bullet weights. Most .40's are 155 gr, 165gr, or 180gr. The lightest 9mm is 115gr and the heaviest is 147gr.

Consider getting broadsided by an F150 1/2 ton or an F350 1 ton. If both trucks are travelling at the same speed the F350 will usually do more damage because it weighs twice as much. This is why a lot of folks prefer the slower moving but heavier .45 ACP.

The "flying ashtray" as it is commonly referred to, usually weighs from 185 to 230gr. The 230gr is most common.

GunFighter45ACP
08-25-2010, 21:28
The .40 is essentially the same sized gun as a 9mm, yet it fires a larger & a heavier bullet.

KAK
08-25-2010, 23:13
A 9mm is 9mm a .40 S&W is 10mm. Bullet size is not the only factor, also consider the energy generated by the bullet. Most .40's generate higher energy partly due to greater bullet weights. Most .40's are 155 gr, 165gr, or 180gr. The lightest 9mm is 115gr and the heaviest is 147gr.

Consider getting broadsided by an F150 1/2 ton or an F350 1 ton. If both trucks are travelling at the same speed the F350 will usually do more damage because it weighs twice as much. This is why a lot of folks prefer the slower moving but heavier .45 ACP.

The "flying ashtray" as it is commonly referred to, usually weighs from 185 to 230gr. The 230gr is most common.

I like your analogy but the 45 travels much slower than a 9mm or a 40.

New York Hunter
08-26-2010, 01:00
I have been a 9mm guy for a long time. I really like the high capacity, Tell me why a 40 is a better choice for CCW.

This will be fun. :popcorn:
Honestly, give me a good Glock, Sig, 1911 in 9mm, 357 Sig, 40 S&W or 45 ACP and I won't feel under gunned and I'll be completely happy. Especially with a Glock and a 1911. I think it's more important to have a gun (rifle, shotgun and pistol) that works first off and fits you secondly, caliber size comes in third place to me.

You could have a 500 S&W, if you can't hit your target, the guns no good to you. You could have a G26 (9mm) and if you can shoot it and hit your target with it, it could be worth it's weight in gold.

I carry either a G22, G27 (both 40 S&W) or a SW1911 45 ACP. I have a G31 barrel (357 Sig.) for my G22 too. I used to carried it with the 357 Sig. barrel in it a lot. I was getting 125 gr. Speer Gold Dots for $15 per 50 round box. That deal is no longer there, so I've kind of gone back to the 40 S&W. I also have a Lone Wolf 9mm conversion barrel for my G22. I shoot it a lot, however I've never carried with it in the gun.

My next pistol is going to be a gen 3 G19. Once I get 500 to 1000 rounds through it, it might see more carry use then the others. It's smaller them the others except for the G27. I can afford to shoot it a lot more being a 9mm. I think the ammo industry has come a long way in the last 10 years and the performance playing field is more equal now then ever before. Just my $.02! :supergrin:

cowboy1964
08-26-2010, 08:07
Consider getting broadsided by an F150 1/2 ton or an F350 1 ton. If both trucks are travelling at the same speed the F350 will usually do more damage because it weighs twice as much.

And if you get hit by either one it will have the same effect. You can't be "twice as dead".

NonPCnraRN
08-26-2010, 10:13
My answer is based on the bullet with the largest meplat (flat part of bullet nose) I can find in loaded ammo. It is the size of the meplat x impact velocity that determines wound size. A 40 cal and 45 cal bullet with the same size meplat will create the same wound size. This has been proven by handgun hunting with hardcast bullets. I am not a hollowpoint guy. I know I will pizz off a lot of HP believers. I have heard all the overpenetration arguments before. The largest meplat I have found is the .32 inch meplat of DT 40 cal/10mm ammo. The meplat is larger than even the Jeff Cooper inspired truncated cone 230 gr 45 ACP bullet. A hollowpoint will vary in size based on variables such as velocity, getting plugged with clothing etc. A .32" meplat remains the same size regardless of velocity. Unlike RN ball ammo, flat point bullets tend to track straight even if bone is encountered. This has been proven by turning deer into venison sammiches with a 44 spl 250 gr Keith style SWC with a .30 inch meplat at 1000 fps. Like I stated in the beginning the WFNGC DT ammo with its large meplat is what made my decision. I still like my Milspec 1911 but I am working on some ammo with a 255 gr WFN with a .36" meplat (Beartooth). If someone came out with that bullet in 45 ACP ammo I would switch to a compact Glock 45. But even then I am faced with the choice of a gun holding 10 rounds vs 7 rounds. You said this was going to be fun, so here is some fuel for the fire.

Glolt20-91
08-26-2010, 10:14
I like your analogy but the 45 travels much slower than a 9mm or a 40.

Really???

DoubleTap 9mm+P Penetration / expansion
147gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps - 14.00" / .66"

DoubleTap .40 S&W 180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1100fps - 14.75" / .68"

DoubleTap .45ACP
185gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1225fps - 12.75" / .82"
200gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps - 14.25" / .88"
230gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1010fps - 15.25" / .95"


and for fun;

DoubleTap 10mm
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1300fps - 15.25" / .96"

Comparing sectional densities, looks like the 10mm/180gr GD and .45/230gr GD exhibit much larger crush cavities and penetrate deeper than either the 9mm/147gr GD or .40/180gr GD.

By changing to a heavy and slow 200gr XTP, (and don't forget the 200gr hardcast) the .40 does well as a trail carry with numbers the 9mm can't match;

200gr XTP @ 1050fps - 17.75" / .59"

Bob :cowboy:

glock031
08-26-2010, 10:47
No one should tell you what you should like. Find out why the FBI chooses the 40sw. It's not cost.

Glolt20-91
08-26-2010, 10:54
My answer is based on the bullet with the largest meplat (flat part of bullet nose) I can find in loaded ammo. It is the size of the meplat x impact velocity that determines wound size. A 40 cal and 45 cal bullet with the same size meplat will create the same wound size. This has been proven by handgun hunting with hardcast bullets. I am not a hollowpoint guy. I know I will pizz off a lot of HP believers. I have heard all the overpenetration arguments before. The largest meplat I have found is the .32 inch meplat of DT 40 cal/10mm ammo. The meplat is larger than even the Jeff Cooper inspired truncated cone 230 gr 45 ACP bullet. A hollowpoint will vary in size based on variables such as velocity, getting plugged with clothing etc. A .32" meplat remains the same size regardless of velocity. Unlike RN ball ammo, flat point bullets tend to track straight even if bone is encountered. This has been proven by turning deer into venison sammiches with a 44 spl 250 gr Keith style SWC with a .30 inch meplat at 1000 fps. Like I stated in the beginning the WFNGC DT ammo with its large meplat is what made my decision. I still like my Milspec 1911 but I am working on some ammo with a 255 gr WFN with a .36" meplat (Beartooth). If someone came out with that bullet in 45 ACP ammo I would switch to a compact Glock 45. But even then I am faced with the choice of a gun holding 10 rounds vs 7 rounds. You said this was going to be fun, so here is some fuel for the fire.

A man after my own heart, ask and it shall be granted at an MV of 960fps;

The three JHP loads are designed for defense against humans, while the two non-expanding loads are designed to shoot through large shoulder bones or the skull on a black bear. These non-expanding bullets also work well if you need to shoot through cover like car doors or stick frame walls.

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=214

During our winter months when mountain lions come down from the mountains, I typically carry a 1911/.38Super/125grXTPs/~1450fps or .357mag/125gr/GD-XTP/1600s; but, but there's a scandium frame snub .44 Special/255gr hardcast as a BUG carried in a pocket because it is capable of penetrating through thick mesquite w/o deflecting or deforming. Running at a low 700fps, it penetrates deeper than a 9mm/115gr FMJ.

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/ScandiumSmiths008.jpg

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/ScandiumSmiths004.jpg

The 180gr WFNGC (.270" meplat) is no slouch; it entered a cow leg bone here;

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/180WFNGC357magH110cowbone006.jpg

and exited here;
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/180WFNGC357magH110cowbone005.jpg

This particular .357mag load is good for about 45" of ballistic gel penetration.

Bob :cowboy:

Glolt20-91
08-26-2010, 11:14
No one should tell you what you should like. Find out why the FBI chooses the 40sw. It's not cost.

True, but LEOs, including the FBI, who go in harm's way (SWAT/HRT/) often, typically carry 1911s in .45auto. If civilians need lethal force to protect themselves, they are in harm's way.

Caliber wars are amusing to say the least; however, #1 priority is

I'd still rather have the person being given the ammunition place more focus on their mindset, skillset and ability to employ the tactics they've been taught in the necessary strategic manner during a shooting situation ... rather than think that things are going to be easier and they have some intrinsic advantage over an attacker just because they've been given a "better" bullet.
fastbolt

Bob :cowboy:

glock031
08-26-2010, 11:58
True, but LEOs, including the FBI, who go in harm's way (SWAT/HRT/) often, typically carry 1911s in .45auto. If civilians need lethal force to protect themselves, they are in harm's way.

Caliber wars are amusing to say the least; however, #1 priority is



Bob :cowboy:
So FBI agents and LE that are issued glock 22's in 40sw but when in harms often they typically carry 1911's in 45 auto? I'm confused.

orangevol
08-26-2010, 12:02
I like your analogy but the 45 travels much slower than a 9mm or a 40.

Take a look at Federal / ATK stats for the HST loads. As I stated in my last post, a bullet doesn't have to be fast to inflict damage if it is heavy enough. Look at the muzzle energy comparisons below for 9mm, 40, & .45.

The .45 weighs 106gr more than the 9mm, travels 250 FPS slower, but still delivers 65 more FP's of energy. Where the .45 shines is further downrange. As you can see it still has more energy at 100 yds than the 9mm has at the muzzle.

<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=2 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR id=LoadDetails *********#ffffff><TD colSpan=2>Load Details


</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><!--End Brand Header--><!-- Product Details --><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0 *********#333333><TBODY><TR><TD><TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=2 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=resultHeaderWhite vAlign=center align=middle *********#030303></TD><TD class=resultHeaderWhite align=middle *********#030303>Federal Load No.


</TD><TD class=resultHeaderWhite align=middle *********#030303>Factory Primer No.


</TD><TD class=resultHeaderWhite align=middle *********#030303>Caliber


</TD><TD class=resultHeaderWhite align=middle *********#030303>Bullet Weight
Grains / Grams


</TD><TD class=resultHeaderWhite align=middle *********#030303>Bullet style


</TD><TD class=resultHeaderWhite align=middle *********#030303>T.B*


</TD></TR><TR><TD class=ResultColorFederalStyle2 align=middle>


</TD><TD class=ResultColorFederalStyle2 align=middle>P9HST3


</TD><TD class=ResultColorFederalStyle2 align=middle>200


</TD><TD class=ResultColorFederalStyle2 align=middle>9mm Luger (9x19mm Parabellum) +P


</TD><TD class=ResultColorFederalStyle2 align=middle>124 / 8.04


</TD><TD class=ResultColorFederalStyle2 align=middle>HST


</TD><TD class=ResultColorFederalStyle2 align=middle>4


</TD></TR><TR><TD class=ResultColorFederalStyle2 align=middle>


</TD><TD class=ResultColorFederalStyle2 align=middle>P40HST1


</TD><TD class=ResultColorFederalStyle2 align=middle>200


</TD><TD class=ResultColorFederalStyle2 align=middle>40 S&W


</TD><TD class=ResultColorFederalStyle2 align=middle>180 / 11.66


</TD><TD class=ResultColorFederalStyle2 align=middle>HST


</TD><TD class=ResultColorFederalStyle2 align=middle>4"


</TD></TR><TR><TD class=ResultColorFederalStyle2 align=middle>


</TD><TD class=ResultColorFederalStyle2 align=middle>P45HST1


</TD><TD class=ResultColorFederalStyle2 align=middle>150


</TD><TD class=ResultColorFederalStyle2 align=middle>45 Auto +P


</TD><TD class=ResultColorFederalStyle2 align=middle>230 / 14.9


</TD><TD class=ResultColorFederalStyle2 align=middle>HST


</TD><TD class=ResultColorFederalStyle2 align=middle>5"


</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><!-- End Product Details --><!-- Velocity --><TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=2 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR id=Velocity *********#ffffff><TD colSpan=10>Velocity in Feet Per Second


</TD></TR><TR><TD class=resultHeaderWhite align=middle *********#030303>


</TD><TD class=resultHeaderWhite align=middle *********#030303>Muzzle


</TD><TD class=resultHeaderWhite align=middle *********#030303>25


</TD><TD class=resultHeaderWhite align=middle *********#030303>50


</TD><TD class=resultHeaderWhite align=middle *********#030303>75


</TD><TD class=resultHeaderWhite align=middle *********#030303>100


</TD></TR><TR><TD class=ResultColorFederalStyle2 noWrap align=left width="5%">P9HST3


</TD><TD class=ResultColorFederalStyle2 align=middle>1200


</TD><TD class=ResultColorFederalStyle2 align=middle>1136


</TD><TD class=ResultColorFederalStyle2 align=middle>1083


</TD><TD class=ResultColorFederalStyle2 align=middle>1039


</TD><TD class=ResultColorFederalStyle2 align=middle>1002


</TD></TR><TR><TD class=ResultColorFederalStyle2 noWrap align=left width="5%">P40HST1


</TD><TD class=ResultColorFederalStyle2 align=middle>1010


</TD><TD class=ResultColorFederalStyle2 align=middle>980


</TD><TD class=ResultColorFederalStyle2 align=middle>954


</TD><TD class=ResultColorFederalStyle2 align=middle>930


</TD><TD class=ResultColorFederalStyle2 align=middle>908


</TD></TR><TR><TD class=ResultColorFederalStyle2 noWrap align=left width="5%">P45HST1


</TD><TD class=ResultColorFederalStyle2 align=middle>950


</TD><TD class=ResultColorFederalStyle2 align=middle>929


</TD><TD class=ResultColorFederalStyle2 align=middle>909


</TD><TD class=ResultColorFederalStyle2 align=middle>890


</TD><TD class=ResultColorFederalStyle2 align=middle>873


</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><!-- End Velocity --><!-- Energy --><TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=2 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR id=Energy *********#ffffff><TD colSpan=10>Energy in Foot Pounds


</TD></TR><TR><TD class=resultHeaderWhite align=middle *********#030303>


</TD><TD class=resultHeaderWhite align=middle *********#030303>Muzzle


</TD><TD class=resultHeaderWhite align=middle *********#030303>25


</TD><TD class=resultHeaderWhite align=middle *********#030303>50


</TD><TD class=resultHeaderWhite align=middle *********#030303>75


</TD><TD class=resultHeaderWhite align=middle *********#030303>100


</TD></TR><TR><TD class=ResultColorFederalStyle2 noWrap align=left width="5%">P9HST3


</TD><TD class=ResultColorFederalStyle2 align=middle>396


</TD><TD class=ResultColorFederalStyle2 align=middle>355


</TD><TD class=ResultColorFederalStyle2 align=middle>323


</TD><TD class=ResultColorFederalStyle2 align=middle>297


</TD><TD class=ResultColorFederalStyle2 align=middle>277


</TD></TR><TR><TD class=ResultColorFederalStyle2 noWrap align=left width="5%">P40HST1


</TD><TD class=ResultColorFederalStyle2 align=middle>408


</TD><TD class=ResultColorFederalStyle2 align=middle>384


</TD><TD class=ResultColorFederalStyle2 align=middle>364


</TD><TD class=ResultColorFederalStyle2 align=middle>346


</TD><TD class=ResultColorFederalStyle2 align=middle>329


</TD></TR><TR><TD class=ResultColorFederalStyle2 noWrap align=left width="5%">P45HST1


</TD><TD class=ResultColorFederalStyle2 align=middle>461


</TD><TD class=ResultColorFederalStyle2 align=middle>440


</TD><TD class=ResultColorFederalStyle2 align=middle>422


</TD><TD class=ResultColorFederalStyle2 align=middle>405


</TD><TD class=ResultColorFederalStyle2 align=middle>389


</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

orangevol
08-26-2010, 12:10
Originally Posted by orangevol http://glocktalk.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15872602#post15872602)
Consider getting broadsided by an F150 1/2 ton or an F350 1 ton. If both trucks are travelling at the same speed the F350 will usually do more damage because it weighs twice as much.

And if you get hit by either one it will have the same effect. You can't be "twice as dead".

Cowboy1964, in all fairness my analogy should have stated that the heavier truck travelling at a slower speed would inflict as much damage as the lighter truck at a faster speed. There is a slight chance you could survive a crash with a lighter weight vehicle compared to that of a heaver one.

English
08-26-2010, 12:40
I have been a 9mm guy for a long time. I really like the high capacity, Tell me why a 40 is a better choice for CCW.

This will be fun. :popcorn:

You don't sound as though you are serious about this!

The 9mm is easier to shoot accurately on the range and it is easier to shoot large numbers of rounds in a single visit to the range. If your principle aim is to make holes in paper on the range, stick to the 9mm.

For want of anything else readily available, if we take two handloads from Vihtavuori's manual, both using Hornady XTP bullets and 3N37 powder, the 9mm with a 115gr bullet does 1322fps and has a kinetic energy at the muzzle of 442ft-lbs force. This is quite a high figure for a 9mm. The .40 S&W with a 155gr bullet does 1267fps and has an energy of 547ft-lbs force. This is about 24% more energy than the 9mm. Both are loaded to about 33,300psi by the way.

So, the principle reason to shoot the .40 S&W for self defence is that it delivers 24% more energy and that means, roughly, 24% more tissue damage. Unfortunately 24% more tissue damage does not equate to 24% more tissue that is disabled for the period of the fight. It might be more or less than 24%, but it does mean that substantially more tissue is put out of action per shot. If you think in terms of a close range gunfight, which is by far the most probable for a civilian, you are in a race against time to make reasonable hits before you are hit, then the prabability is that you will make hits scattered around the COM. You will not have time to make heart shots or brain shots and you will not be anticipating the recoil as something to worry about. Your hand will not be steady because you will be fighting for your life and before you get to the point where you pull the trigger your adrenaline level will be way up.

One of the advantages of the .40S&W pistols is that they are the same size and weight as the 9mm pistols. This makes them better to carry for all those hundreds or thousands of days between gunfights than .45ACPs and 10mms but it also means that you will get the first shot off after just the same delay.
So, after that delay you will have produced 24% more damage to your opponent with a .40 S&W than with an equivalent 9mm. The first shot that hits is the most significant one to the outcome of a gunfight so at that point you are well ahead. Its extra 24% could make all the difference! It might take you an extra 0.05 of a second to fire the second shot so there will be a twentieth of a second when the 9mm will have delivered 200% against the .40's 124% but then the .40 takes the lead again with 248% for another 0.2 seconds or so. Then the 9mm will be ahead for a tenth of a second with 300% untill the .40 gets to 372%. After the 4th shot the 9mm is at 400% and the .40, 3/20ths of a second later is at 496%. At the 5th shot, the 9mm briefly, for 1/5th of a second draws level but then the .40 is never caught again.

You might think that most close range gunfights will be over after four shots but the statistics say 3 seconds is typical and it isn't hard to fire 12 shots in that time. More important than that is that each hit disrupts the immediate ability of the BG to shoot you. It does this in two ways. One is the delivery of momentum and the other is the delivery of energy. The .40 has 29% more momentum. That affects you the shooter but, at close range there is a nearly equal ammount transmited to the BG. You are practiced and skilled at controlling the effect that has on you because you have trained to handle it. The BG can't train to handle being shot and your bullets will hit him in rather random places around his COM. Not only do your hits jerk him around, they jerk him around in unpredictable directions. That pushes him off aim and he takes more time to recover from that than you do. So you can shoot him again before he can get back on aim.

The energy your bullets deliver disable some volume of tissue but they also produce a temporary cavity. That is the equivalent of having a fair size ballon suddenly inflate and deflate somewher in his insides in a fraction of a second. That jerks him off aim as well but the tissue damage takes some of his muscles and perhaps bones out of commission so when he tries to re-aim it takes time to adapat to his loss of bodily function and that all adds to the time you have to shoot again before he can get back on aim. If you can keep making hits and you have made the first hit, you have almost certainly won the fight! In other words, you want to hit him firstest with the mostest!

That is why the .40S&W is better for self defence than the 9mm.

That isn't the end of the story. 9mm is cheaper to practice with and easier to do lots of shooting with. You need to do lots of shooting, so it is better to train with the 9mm. So you need both calibers and you can then do most of your training with 9mm and enough with .40 S&W.

I am sure I have now convinced you and any one else who reads this. http://glocktalk.com/forums/images/smilies/greensupergrin.gif

English

Clay1
08-26-2010, 12:46
If you already have a 9 you should buy a 40 to match something that is issued to you, as if you were a police.

Bullet designs are so much different than in the 30s or 40s that it plays a much larger roll these days where wonderful personal protection ammo exists. If it were 1945 I would recomend the 45 over the 9mm but today it is more about bullet than cartridge.

Comparing prices these days says that 40 cal is about 40% more in cost than similar 9 mm ammo for practice rounds. If you want to up your personal defense situation instead of another handgun which are all used to get to a long gun in a real fight where you can get to a long gun, consider a tactical shotgun or a rifle. Right now a S&W MP AR for $600 new at CDNN.

Daryl in Az
08-26-2010, 14:40
I like reading through caliber/cartridge battles. You get all the best facts and nonsense the 'net has to offer.

In the end, few if any change their mind.

It's all about choice, and I love having choices.

;)

Daryl

Glolt20-91
08-26-2010, 15:54
You don't sound as though you are serious about this!

The 9mm is easier to shoot accurately on the range and it is easier to shoot large numbers of rounds in a single visit to the range. If your principle aim is to make holes in paper on the range, stick to the 9mm.

For want of anything else readily available, if we take two handloads from Vihtavuori's manual, both using Hornady XTP bullets and 3N37 powder, the 9mm with a 115gr bullet does 1322fps and has a kinetic energy at the muzzle of 442ft-lbs force. This is quite a high figure for a 9mm. The .40 S&W with a 155gr bullet does 1267fps and has an energy of 547ft-lbs force. This is about 24% more energy than the 9mm. Both are loaded to about 33,300psi by the way.

So, the principle reason to shoot the .40 S&W for self defence is that it delivers 24% more energy and that means, roughly, 24% more tissue damage. Unfortunately 24% more tissue damage does not equate to 24% more tissue that is disabled for the period of the fight. It might be more or less than 24%, but it does mean that substantially more tissue is put out of action per shot. If you think in terms of a close range gunfight, which is by far the most probable for a civilian, you are in a race against time to make reasonable hits before you are hit, then the prabability is that you will make hits scattered around the COM. You will not have time to make heart shots or brain shots and you will not be anticipating the recoil as something to worry about. Your hand will not be steady because you will be fighting for your life and before you get to the point where you pull the trigger your adrenaline level will be way up.

One of the advantages of the .40S&W pistols is that they are the same size and weight as the 9mm pistols. This makes them better to carry for all those hundreds or thousands of days between gunfights than .45ACPs and 10mms but it also means that you will get the first shot off after just the same delay.
So, after that delay you will have produced 24% more damage to your opponent with a .40 S&W than with an equivalent 9mm. The first shot that hits is the most significant one to the outcome of a gunfight so at that point you are well ahead. Its extra 24% could make all the difference! It might take you an extra 0.05 of a second to fire the second shot so there will be a twentieth of a second when the 9mm will have delivered 200% against the .40's 124% but then the .40 takes the lead again with 248% for another 0.2 seconds or so. Then the 9mm will be ahead for a tenth of a second with 300% untill the .40 gets to 372%. After the 4th shot the 9mm is at 400% and the .40, 3/20ths of a second later is at 496%. At the 5th shot, the 9mm briefly, for 1/5th of a second draws level but then the .40 is never caught again.

You might think that most close range gunfights will be over after four shots but the statistics say 3 seconds is typical and it isn't hard to fire 12 shots in that time. More important than that is that each hit disrupts the immediate ability of the BG to shoot you. It does this in two ways. One is the delivery of momentum and the other is the delivery of energy. The .40 has 29% more momentum. That affects you the shooter but, at close range there is a nearly equal ammount transmited to the BG. You are practiced and skilled at controlling the effect that has on you because you have trained to handle it. The BG can't train to handle being shot and your bullets will hit him in rather random places around his COM. Not only do your hits jerk him around, they jerk him around in unpredictable directions. That pushes him off aim and he takes more time to recover from that than you do. So you can shoot him again before he can get back on aim.

The energy your bullets deliver disable some volume of tissue but they also produce a temporary cavity. That is the equivalent of having a fair size ballon suddenly inflate and deflate somewher in his insides in a fraction of a second. That jerks him off aim as well but the tissue damage takes some of his muscles and perhaps bones out of commission so when he tries to re-aim it takes time to adapat to his loss of bodily function and that all adds to the time you have to shoot again before he can get back on aim. If you can keep making hits and you have made the first hit, you have almost certainly won the fight! In other words, you want to hit him firstest with the mostest!

That is why the .40S&W is better for self defence than the 9mm.

That isn't the end of the story. 9mm is cheaper to practice with and easier to do lots of shooting with. You need to do lots of shooting, so it is better to train with the 9mm. So you need both calibers and you can then do most of your training with 9mm and enough with .40 S&W.

I am sure I have now convinced you and any one else who reads this. http://glocktalk.com/forums/images/smilies/greensupergrin.gif

English

Have to admit this is the funniest piece of fiction I've ever read on GT. :rofl:

“. . . every now and then someone wants to analyze or think about a problem involving energy, and when they attempt to do this without really understanding energy or other thermodynamic concepts the result is unfortunate. One such problem is the analysis of any of the various aspects of terminal ballistics; some individuals with inadequate technical training and experience have unwisely and unproductively attempted to use energy concepts in the analysis of bullet impact and penetration in soft tissue. (Many others have simply assumed that energy is the dominant effect in Wound Trauma Incapacitation; this assumption is even more simplistic than the attempt to actually analyze the dynamics problem with energy relationships, and is no more successful).

Any attempt to derive the effect of bullet impact in tissue using energy relationships is ill advised and wrong because the problem cannot be analyzed that way and only someone without the requisite technical background would try. Many individuals who have not had technical training have nonetheless heard of Newton’s laws of motion, but most of them aren’t really familiar with these laws and would be surprised to learn Newton’s laws describe forces and momentum transfer, not energy relationships. The dynamic variable that is conserved in collisions is momentum; kinetic energy is not only not conserved in real collisions, but is transferred into thermal energy in a way that usually cannot be practically modeled. The energy in collisions can be traced, but usually only by solving the dynamics by other means and then determining the energy flow.

Understanding energy and how it relates to bullet terminal ballistics is useful even though energy is not a useful parameter in most small arms ballistics work.”

Duncan MacPherson


Bob :cowboy:

KAK
08-26-2010, 17:55
I am going to get a 22, 23, and I already have a 27, and a PM40

I am going to get the 9mm conversion barrels for training. I love my storm lake conversion for my 27.

I am sick of arguing that 9mm is somehow better, I cant see a real reason why the hell not get a 40 if I can train with the 9mm.

Yall have actually converted me. No kidding. I like the fact that the 40 chucks larger chunks of metal at similar speeds. :grill:

KAK
08-26-2010, 18:01
Now everyone migrate over to the faster and lighter vs slow and heavy thread. :)

DocKWL
08-26-2010, 18:10
You don't sound as though you are serious about this!

The 9mm is easier to shoot accurately on the range and it is easier to shoot large numbers of rounds in a single visit to the range. If your principle aim is to make holes in paper on the range, stick to the 9mm.

For want of anything else readily available, if we take two handloads from Vihtavuori's manual, both using Hornady XTP bullets and 3N37 powder, the 9mm with a 115gr bullet does 1322fps and has a kinetic energy at the muzzle of 442ft-lbs force. This is quite a high figure for a 9mm. The .40 S&W with a 155gr bullet does 1267fps and has an energy of 547ft-lbs force. This is about 24% more energy than the 9mm. Both are loaded to about 33,300psi by the way.

So, the principle reason to shoot the .40 S&W for self defence is that it delivers 24% more energy and that means, roughly, 24% more tissue damage. Unfortunately 24% more tissue damage does not equate to 24% more tissue that is disabled for the period of the fight. It might be more or less than 24%, but it does mean that substantially more tissue is put out of action per shot. If you think in terms of a close range gunfight, which is by far the most probable for a civilian, you are in a race against time to make reasonable hits before you are hit, then the prabability is that you will make hits scattered around the COM. You will not have time to make heart shots or brain shots and you will not be anticipating the recoil as something to worry about. Your hand will not be steady because you will be fighting for your life and before you get to the point where you pull the trigger your adrenaline level will be way up.

One of the advantages of the .40S&W pistols is that they are the same size and weight as the 9mm pistols. This makes them better to carry for all those hundreds or thousands of days between gunfights than .45ACPs and 10mms but it also means that you will get the first shot off after just the same delay.
So, after that delay you will have produced 24% more damage to your opponent with a .40 S&W than with an equivalent 9mm. The first shot that hits is the most significant one to the outcome of a gunfight so at that point you are well ahead. Its extra 24% could make all the difference! It might take you an extra 0.05 of a second to fire the second shot so there will be a twentieth of a second when the 9mm will have delivered 200% against the .40's 124% but then the .40 takes the lead again with 248% for another 0.2 seconds or so. Then the 9mm will be ahead for a tenth of a second with 300% untill the .40 gets to 372%. After the 4th shot the 9mm is at 400% and the .40, 3/20ths of a second later is at 496%. At the 5th shot, the 9mm briefly, for 1/5th of a second draws level but then the .40 is never caught again.

You might think that most close range gunfights will be over after four shots but the statistics say 3 seconds is typical and it isn't hard to fire 12 shots in that time. More important than that is that each hit disrupts the immediate ability of the BG to shoot you. It does this in two ways. One is the delivery of momentum and the other is the delivery of energy. The .40 has 29% more momentum. That affects you the shooter but, at close range there is a nearly equal ammount transmited to the BG. You are practiced and skilled at controlling the effect that has on you because you have trained to handle it. The BG can't train to handle being shot and your bullets will hit him in rather random places around his COM. Not only do your hits jerk him around, they jerk him around in unpredictable directions. That pushes him off aim and he takes more time to recover from that than you do. So you can shoot him again before he can get back on aim.

The energy your bullets deliver disable some volume of tissue but they also produce a temporary cavity. That is the equivalent of having a fair size ballon suddenly inflate and deflate somewher in his insides in a fraction of a second. That jerks him off aim as well but the tissue damage takes some of his muscles and perhaps bones out of commission so when he tries to re-aim it takes time to adapat to his loss of bodily function and that all adds to the time you have to shoot again before he can get back on aim. If you can keep making hits and you have made the first hit, you have almost certainly won the fight! In other words, you want to hit him firstest with the mostest!

That is why the .40S&W is better for self defence than the 9mm.

That isn't the end of the story. 9mm is cheaper to practice with and easier to do lots of shooting with. You need to do lots of shooting, so it is better to train with the 9mm. So you need both calibers and you can then do most of your training with 9mm and enough with .40 S&W.

I am sure I have now convinced you and any one else who reads this. http://glocktalk.com/forums/images/smilies/greensupergrin.gif

English

Your lack of understanding regarding terminal ballistics is appalling; even for this forum.

Pecos Bill
08-26-2010, 18:15
I have some 9mm's and I love them. I carry a 9 sometimes with 147gr +P and feel safe with it. My primary carry is a Glock 36 in .45

My advice is go to the range and shoot as many different guns as you can find to rent, beg or borrow. Read up on the bullet choices of each and their performance in ballistic jell. Then, make your own decision on what you will feel safe defending yourself and your family with.

Good luck and happy shooting. In the mean time, feel safe with what you already have.

English
08-27-2010, 10:16
Your lack of understanding regarding terminal ballistics is appalling; even for this forum.

As always, you are abusive from the great height of your superiority. As always, you offer nothing else. As always you do not lower yourself to the mundane world of reasoned discussion and why should you since it might make it clear to others that your claimed knowledge is as substantial as the emperor's no existent clothes.

English

English
08-27-2010, 10:24
Have to admit this is the funniest piece of fiction I've ever read on GT. :rofl:



Bob :cowboy:

Ah Bob! You mean even funnier than your claim that the vacuum behind the bullet is what does the damage?

Perhaps, for our general amusement, you would care to give a reasoned, fact and theory based, argument against any part of my "fiction" and then I will explain why you are wrong.

English

Roering
08-27-2010, 11:07
I enjoy shooting the 9 a little more than the 40 and as such for me I'm slightly more accurate w/ the 9.

If something goes bump in the night, I prefer to reach for the 40. I may not be as accurate at 30 paces, but I'd most likely be shooting at someone less than 8!


This is why I appreciate my conversion barrel. 9 for fun, 40 for defense.


G23

Glolt20-91
08-27-2010, 17:09
Your lack of understanding regarding terminal ballistics is appalling; even for this forum.

You bring a lot of knowledge and experience to the forum, keep up the good work!

Bob :cowboy:

marvin
08-27-2010, 19:20
you would want to shoot a .40. if you shoot in IPSC limited division. that way you could make major power factor, so when you got back to your carry gun you would have the same recoil. that way things are the same making you a better shooter.

bac1023
08-27-2010, 21:08
I have been a 9mm guy for a long time. I really like the high capacity, Tell me why a 40 is a better choice for CCW.

This will be fun. :popcorn:

I can't help you, as I prefer the 9mm. :embarassed:

High Altitude
08-27-2010, 23:57
The only real benefit that I can think of is better penetration through auto glass with the .40 which is very important for LEO and probably the main reason why more and more agencies that still carry 9mm are going with 147g.

But for the average joe, does this benefit outway the negatives compared to 9mm??? I like 9mm but its a personal decision, nothing absolute etc.....

Carry either and 99% of the time I bet the outcome would be the same with equal training/shot placement etc.....

DEADEYEGUY
08-28-2010, 09:49
I got rid of my .40's. Decided to shoot 9mm and .45. If I want lots of rounds I take one of my 9mm. Big bullets my .45. With the newer JHP's they all perform about the same. And I never really did care for the .40's recoil. The .45 seems to have less recoil than the .40. Is their anything wrong with the .40? No! But it is almost as expensive around here as .45. And I'd rather pay a little bit more and shoot my .45.

FPS
08-28-2010, 14:32
it hits harder.

jack76590
08-28-2010, 17:36
I find carry jhp ammo much cheaper for 40 cal than 9mm. Granted you have to look around and make decent size buys. I think this is all about the 40 being THE LEO caliber and the overruns, surplus, etc.

Now in range ammo 9mm is a lot cheaper.

My solution is the same frame glocks fitted out similarly in 9mm and 40 cal. Other options are reloading the 40 for practice and/or a 9mm conversion barrel for a 40.

pant3ra
08-28-2010, 23:43
Yea that's what I'm always thinking. My glock 19 has no "knockdown" power.


Maybe if I empty all 15 rounds into their heart/lungs, and they're still standing, I'll walk up to them and kick them over as they'll hear me say -
"KNOCKED YOU DOWN!!!!!!" :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Glock1911
08-29-2010, 11:40
I carry a nine because it carries easier than a .45. I don't really like .40, but it's not because of ballistics. It's purely for personal and unreasonable reasons.:upeyes: I prefer a .45 or 10mm.

I figure a high cap 9mm will give me a chance to fight my way back to my vehicle and my .45/10mm.:whistling:

DRT
08-29-2010, 18:39
cause the .40 is actually powerful enough to reliably cycle the action on a gen 4 pistol.

bmylesk
08-29-2010, 19:07
i like the .40 because it holds more rounds than a .45 with more power than a 9mm, you can get loads that mimic the .45 or 357 ballistically. There is alot of le overrun ammo available for it.

Now you will have people saying the 9mm is better because all handgun rounds are about the same, ya i concur but there is more energy/ velocity out of certain .40 loads, when the chips are down i would like the extra power, if it helps me great, if not...it wont hurt. I like my .40's over my 9mm except for ammo cost, if you can train alot with a little more expensive ammo and be proficient with the .40, go for it, if not the 9mm will do fine in most self defense scenarios.

I dont even want to get into this, its mostly personal preference when it comes down to it, they both kill, use the search function and look at all of the other posts on this topic please

++++++1

BOGE
08-29-2010, 19:48
FWIW, bullets don`t ``move`` people. Not even a .458 Win. Mag. will ``turn`` a man hit with it. Simple physics. IMO any gain by using the .40 S&W as opposed to the 9mm with QUALITY HP rds. is insignificant. No bad guy will know the difference of 0.045``.


Use what you shoot best and use quality PROVEN HP`s.

English
08-30-2010, 07:20
FWIW, bullets don`t ``move`` people. Not even a .458 Win. Mag. will ``turn`` a man hit with it. Simple physics. IMO any gain by using the .40 S&W as opposed to the 9mm with QUALITY HP rds. is insignificant. No bad guy will know the difference of 0.045``.


Use what you shoot best and use quality PROVEN HP`s.

Bullets don't move people in the sense of the film "Shane" but momentum is conserved. So when you fire, the recoil moves you. Not a lot but it is clearly visible. Quite apart from the obvious muzzle flip, the arm or arms and shoulder or shoulders are moved backwards. To a degree, depending on stance, the body is moved back from the hips and the whole body is swayed back on the feet. You only have to fire a 9mm sub gun to see how much you have to brace yourself to control both it and your body position to fire a short burst of relatively low recoil bullets.

If someone were to throw a medicine ball at your body with the momentum of a 9mm bullet, it wouldn't hurt you at all but if it happened just as you were about to fire, the momentum trnsfer would make you miss or re-aim.

Because momentum is conserved, the bullet you fire and hit someone with transfers almost as much momentum to your opponent in the opposite direction as your pistol does to you. Some of its momentum is lost to air resistance and some of the momentum transfered to you, the shooter, is the momentum of the high pressure gasses, which is also lost to moving the air. But, even with those losses, a bullet that stays in the body at close range will have close to the momentum level of your pistol's recoil. Just like the low momentum medicine ball, this is enough to make your opponent miss or go through a re-aiming sequence, depending on how close he was to firing at the moment of your hit.

This effect is independent of, pain, blood loss, damage done to muscles and bones and so on. All of those things will, or might, have additive effects within the critical time frame, but just the momentum transfer, small though it is, will make your opponent miss or delay his next shot by at least the time it takes him to re-aim. Because you also disrupt his OODA loop, this time is likely to be longer than the time it takes hime to re-aim betrween shots on the range. The momentum transfer of a hit, almost any hit, will buy you valuable time in which you will not be shot and in which you might make another hit which will repeat the process.

We often hear people say "just shoot them to the ground". That sounds nice and simple but it is also precisely what the BG is trying to do to you. As such it is a form of mutual suicide and those people who have experienced doing this and survived unscathed have done so only because the effect of their multiple hits prevented their opponent shooting them to the ground. In other words they were using the principles I have talked about even though they had no understanding of them. From the depths of their experience they then believe that, "Just shoot them to the ground" explains everything when it actually explains nothing.

I hope this clarifies the issue of being moved by a bullet hit.

By the way, this effect is also independent of the extra 1mm or 0.045 of an inch in diameter except that the same gas pressure in the barrel acting on 23.5% more surface area will produce more bullet momentum.

English

voyager4520
08-30-2010, 10:27
Among factory loads the only benefit I can see of .40 over 9mm is that during the ammo shortage .40 was almost always on the shelf while 9mm wasn't, at least in my area.

fredj338
08-30-2010, 12:57
Being in a state that only allows 10rds, I look at the caliber debate a bit diff. Match the caliber to the platform. If I am carrying a G26 vs G27, I'll take the 9 for the same number of rounds, less recoil. In a full size pistol, I'll take the 40 or 45. Do I get much more w/ the larger bullet, maybe, maybe not, but I see no downside if you shoot them the same. I am a much better shooter w/ my 8+1 1911 than I am w/ a 10+1 Glock, so I am likely to need the extra 2rds when I miss w/ the 9mm!

rohanreginald
08-30-2010, 13:51
You don't sound as though you are serious about this!

The 9mm is easier to shoot accurately on the range and it is easier to shoot large numbers of rounds in a single visit to the range. If your principle aim is to make holes in paper on the range, stick to the 9mm.

For want of anything else readily available, if we take two handloads from Vihtavuori's manual, both using Hornady XTP bullets and 3N37 powder, the 9mm with a 115gr bullet does 1322fps and has a kinetic energy at the muzzle of 442ft-lbs force. This is quite a high figure for a 9mm. The .40 S&W with a 155gr bullet does 1267fps and has an energy of 547ft-lbs force. This is about 24% more energy than the 9mm. Both are loaded to about 33,300psi by the way.

So, the principle reason to shoot the .40 S&W for self defence is that it delivers 24% more energy and that means, roughly, 24% more tissue damage. Unfortunately 24% more tissue damage does not equate to 24% more tissue that is disabled for the period of the fight. It might be more or less than 24%, but it does mean that substantially more tissue is put out of action per shot. If you think in terms of a close range gunfight, which is by far the most probable for a civilian, you are in a race against time to make reasonable hits before you are hit, then the prabability is that you will make hits scattered around the COM. You will not have time to make heart shots or brain shots and you will not be anticipating the recoil as something to worry about. Your hand will not be steady because you will be fighting for your life and before you get to the point where you pull the trigger your adrenaline level will be way up.

One of the advantages of the .40S&W pistols is that they are the same size and weight as the 9mm pistols. This makes them better to carry for all those hundreds or thousands of days between gunfights than .45ACPs and 10mms but it also means that you will get the first shot off after just the same delay.
So, after that delay you will have produced 24% more damage to your opponent with a .40 S&W than with an equivalent 9mm. The first shot that hits is the most significant one to the outcome of a gunfight so at that point you are well ahead. Its extra 24% could make all the difference! It might take you an extra 0.05 of a second to fire the second shot so there will be a twentieth of a second when the 9mm will have delivered 200% against the .40's 124% but then the .40 takes the lead again with 248% for another 0.2 seconds or so. Then the 9mm will be ahead for a tenth of a second with 300% untill the .40 gets to 372%. After the 4th shot the 9mm is at 400% and the .40, 3/20ths of a second later is at 496%. At the 5th shot, the 9mm briefly, for 1/5th of a second draws level but then the .40 is never caught again.

You might think that most close range gunfights will be over after four shots but the statistics say 3 seconds is typical and it isn't hard to fire 12 shots in that time. More important than that is that each hit disrupts the immediate ability of the BG to shoot you. It does this in two ways. One is the delivery of momentum and the other is the delivery of energy. The .40 has 29% more momentum. That affects you the shooter but, at close range there is a nearly equal ammount transmited to the BG. You are practiced and skilled at controlling the effect that has on you because you have trained to handle it. The BG can't train to handle being shot and your bullets will hit him in rather random places around his COM. Not only do your hits jerk him around, they jerk him around in unpredictable directions. That pushes him off aim and he takes more time to recover from that than you do. So you can shoot him again before he can get back on aim.

The energy your bullets deliver disable some volume of tissue but they also produce a temporary cavity. That is the equivalent of having a fair size ballon suddenly inflate and deflate somewher in his insides in a fraction of a second. That jerks him off aim as well but the tissue damage takes some of his muscles and perhaps bones out of commission so when he tries to re-aim it takes time to adapat to his loss of bodily function and that all adds to the time you have to shoot again before he can get back on aim. If you can keep making hits and you have made the first hit, you have almost certainly won the fight! In other words, you want to hit him firstest with the mostest!

That is why the .40S&W is better for self defence than the 9mm.

That isn't the end of the story. 9mm is cheaper to practice with and easier to do lots of shooting with. You need to do lots of shooting, so it is better to train with the 9mm. So you need both calibers and you can then do most of your training with 9mm and enough with .40 S&W.

I am sure I have now convinced you and any one else who reads this. http://glocktalk.com/forums/images/smilies/greensupergrin.gif

English

This stinks for me. I am sure now that NATO will be converting over to .40 S&W. Then our troops will convert also. And to think it will all be done based on your post here on GT!

What stinks for me is that I was trying to stay compatable with what the military uses. Now I will have to get rid of all my 9mm's and 45's to convert to .40 S&W.

cowboy1964
08-30-2010, 14:57
12 shots in 3 seconds?! I bet 99% of concealed carry holders aren't proficient enough to shoot their gun at 4 rounds per second period, let alone hit their target.

BTW, a 24% increase in muzzle energy does not mean it's 24% more effective.

Glolt20-91
08-30-2010, 14:59
Bullets don't move people in the sense of the film "Shane" but momentum is conserved. So when you fire, the recoil moves you. Not a lot but it is clearly visible. Quite apart from the obvious muzzle flip, the arm or arms and shoulder or shoulders are moved backwards. To a degree, depending on stance, the body is moved back from the hips and the whole body is swayed back on the feet. You only have to fire a 9mm sub gun to see how much you have to brace yourself to control both it and your body position to fire a short burst of relatively low recoil bullets.

If someone were to throw a medicine ball at your body with the momentum of a 9mm bullet, it wouldn't hurt you at all but if it happened just as you were about to fire, the momentum trnsfer would make you miss or re-aim.
Because momentum is conserved, the bullet you fire and hit someone with transfers almost as much momentum to your opponent in the opposite direction as your pistol does to you. Some of its momentum is lost to air resistance and some of the momentum transfered to you, the shooter, is the momentum of the high pressure gasses, which is also lost to moving the air. But, even with those losses, a bullet that stays in the body at close range will have close to the momentum level of your pistol's recoil. Just like the low momentum medicine ball, this is enough to make your opponent miss or go through a re-aiming sequence, depending on how close he was to firing at the moment of your hit.

This effect is independent of, pain, blood loss, damage done to muscles and bones and so on. All of those things will, or might, have additive effects within the critical time frame, but just the momentum transfer, small though it is, will make your opponent miss or delay his next shot by at least the time it takes him to re-aim. Because you also disrupt his OODA loop, this time is likely to be longer than the time it takes hime to re-aim betrween shots on the range. The momentum transfer of a hit, almost any hit, will buy you valuable time in which you will not be shot and in which you might make another hit which will repeat the process.

We often hear people say "just shoot them to the ground". That sounds nice and simple but it is also precisely what the BG is trying to do to you. As such it is a form of mutual suicide and those people who have experienced doing this and survived unscathed have done so only because the effect of their multiple hits prevented their opponent shooting them to the ground. In other words they were using the principles I have talked about even though they had no understanding of them. From the depths of their experience they then believe that, "Just shoot them to the ground" explains everything when it actually explains nothing.

I hope this clarifies the issue of being moved by a bullet hit.

By the way, this effect is also independent of the extra 1mm or 0.045 of an inch in diameter except that the same gas pressure in the barrel acting on 23.5% more surface area will produce more bullet momentum.

English

The momentum of of 9mm/147gr/990fps bullet is 0.65 lbs-sec, the life span of bullet in a human is <0.001 second. Permanent wound cavity mass (comminution) is about 1.5oz

If the bullet exits, as it probably will, let's say at 350fps, retained momentum is 0.23 lb-sec

I doubt the medicine ball momentum of 7oz-sec is going to move a 95lb grandma very much in <.001 second.

Notice the fluid and air flow (circled fish hooks) following in the wake of the bullet;

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/Schlierenjolt-explosion-1fishhooks.jpg

In humans, one can also notice how outer clothing is sucked into a wound channel, plus exit wound splatter of soft tissue, bone fragments et al will be present.

Bullet cavity flow comparisons;

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/bulletcavitation-flow.jpg


The recoil of this .357 mag is very controllable;

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/Christmas06M686125grGoldDot.jpg

While the 125gr JHP bullet has 758ft/lbs ME, recoil is only 9.67ft/lbs, 15.21fps;
a G17 has less recoil

Taught proper grip techniques, even petite, retired grandmas can shoot .40S&W self-defense ammo w/o much muzzle flip; as this first time, (first magazine) grandma demonstrates;

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/KayfirstSteyrshots2.jpg


Bob :cowboy:

fredj338
08-31-2010, 02:21
12 shots in 3 seconds?! I bet 99% of concealed carry holders aren't proficient enough to shoot their gun at 4 rounds per second period, let alone hit their target.

BTW, a 24% increase in muzzle energy does not mean it's 24% more effective.

There are precious few that can achieve hits at that rate at anything beyond contact range.:whistling:

M&P Shooter
08-31-2010, 02:53
The .40 fills the gap between the 9mm isn't enough crowd and the 45acp lacks capacity crowd. The ,40 is a bigger bullet in a 9mm sized weapon with high capacity. The .40 is a good round and can be loaded in different weights with the 155gr/165gr loads looking very impressive for self defense. Most .40cal weapons can also use a 357sig barrel and you can buy a 9mm conversion barrel if you get the itch and have 3 guns in 1, can't do that with a 9mm weapon.

English
08-31-2010, 09:44
12 shots in 3 seconds?! I bet 99% of concealed carry holders aren't proficient enough to shoot their gun at 4 rounds per second period, let alone hit their target.

BTW, a 24% increase in muzzle energy does not mean it's 24% more effective.

It doesn't really matter whether it is 10 shots or 12 shots in 3 seconds and the speed with which you can fire and make hits depends on distance and style. Most such fights will be within 3 to 4 yards and at that range you can, with a little practice, point shoot with more than enough accuracy. Almost all the street hoodlums use point shooting and claim that using the sights is just too slow.

From tests done with about 60 people the problem with such a rate of fire is mental. Most people have spent a lot of time and bullets improving their accuracy. Sight alignment, sight alignment, trigger press, sight alignment, bang. When there is a target in front of them they find it hard to get out of the habit of trying to make the perfect shot and that slows them down a lot. In my tests, with people who had no practice at this kind of thing, the best 10% or so took 0.9 to 1.05 seconds for 5 shots if you take away reaction time. The next 20% took about 1.1 to 1.75 seconds for 5 shots. I would gues that over 50% were under 2.4 second but of the rest, some were up around 10 seconds.

So, without any practice about 10% would get off about 13 shots in 3 seconds, the next 20% would only get of something like 9 shot. The important thing about this was the lack of practice and, apart from me, no experience with point shooting. With practice with point shooting, then point shooting at close range as fast as possible, I believe most handgun shooters who put in the effort could get close to 10 shots in 3 seconds, counting time from the first shot and using a decent pistol. Ed mcGivern did rather better with 5 shots into the Ace of Spades in a playing card in, IIRC. 2/5th of a second, so the standard I am talking about is hugely below that level.

You might well be correct about 99% of CCW holders but a little appropriate training and practice would change their abilities enormously.

English

PS I didn't say that 24% more energy would do 24% more effective damage, just that it would do more damage.

English
08-31-2010, 09:48
.......
What stinks for me is that I was trying to stay compatable with what the military uses. Now I will have to get rid of all my 9mm's and 45's to convert to .40 S&W.

If one sinner can be led into the path or righeousness .....

It is good to hear! Thank you. I don't hold out much hope for the military though.

English

English
08-31-2010, 10:48
The momentum of of 9mm/147gr/990fps bullet is 0.65 lbs-sec, the life span of bullet in a human is <0.001 second. Permanent wound cavity mass (comminution) is about 1.5oz
Bob, you seem to think that the less than 0.001 second is in favour of your position. It is not! What it means is that all of the momentum transfer is delivered and absorbed within that very short period. It is a very abrupt jolt!
If the bullet exits, as it probably will, let's say at 350fps, retained momentum is 0.23 lb-sec
If you use a bullet which shoots through and through, that is your problem, not mine.

I doubt the medicine ball momentum of 7oz-sec is going to move a 95lb grandma very much in <.001 second.
It will move her nearly as much as firing the pistol would. I am not and have not claimed any more!

Notice the fluid and air flow (circled fish hooks) following in the wake of the bullet;
Your lack of understanding of physical processes is showing again. You are assuming that the photogrqaph shows a continuous stream which starts out closest to the source, the punctured can, and is then diverted by later forces. The reality is different. The fluid leaves the can in a direction which combines any movement within the liquid inside the can and an acceleration perpendicular to the pressure gradient in the can. When the can is first puntured, the center of pressure is close to the point of entryand so fluid will spray out close to tangentially and this is especially true when the bullet is only part way through the entry hole. What you see as "fish hook" shapes are just the parts of the fluid which were ejected first. For later parts the center of pressure had moved further into the can and so the direction of ejection changed. The photo shows a moment in time but if you could see a sequence of photos you would see that the "fish hooks" were always going in that same direction.

This is not to say that there are no vacuum effects but their magnitude, driven by less than 15 lbs/sqare inch are totally minor relative to the forces excerted by the bullet and the pressures inside the can or body.

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/Schlierenjolt-explosion-1fishhooks.jpg

In humans, one can also notice how outer clothing is sucked into a wound channel, plus exit wound splatter of soft tissue, bone fragments et al will be present.

Fibres can be dragged into the wound as well but there will be a brief inrush of air which can also suck light fibers into the wound channel. This has no relationship to spatter on the exit side. Spatter is created by the pressur in front of the bullet bursting material out of what becomes the exit hole before the bullet gets there. i am sure that you know that a non deforming bullet, provided it is fast enough, will create a bigger exit than entry hole. This is because the pressure in front of the bullet blows out the tissue before the bullet gets there.

Bullet cavity flow comparisons;
I don't dispute these but all they are saying is that wider, less streamlined bullets create wider temporary cavities at equivalent speeds.

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/bulletcavitation-flow.jpg


The recoil of this .357 mag is very controllable;
Naughty naughty! This just shows that the bullet gets to the jug and bursts it before you can see the muzzle flip! If you took the photo, say, a tenth of a second later, you would see substantial muzzle flip!

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/Christmas06M686125grGoldDot.jpg

While the 125gr JHP bullet has 758ft/lbs ME, recoil is only 9.67ft/lbs, 15.21fps;
a G17 has less recoil

Taught proper grip techniques, even petite, retired grandmas can shoot .40S&W self-defense ammo w/o much muzzle flip; as this first time, (first magazine) grandma demonstrates;
Well yes, and the Steyr is a good choice, but this is nothing to do with what we are talking about is it?

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/KayfirstSteyrshots2.jpg


Bob :cowboy:

KAK
08-31-2010, 11:14
Well now I like the 10mm best. It is the same diameter as the 40 yet tons more powerful. I can carry the same amount of rounds in the gun.

I soon will be buying a G20 and G29 both in OD Green.

I will be looking for a good 22lr conversion for them both once that happens.

Both will get my home-done polish job and a 3.5 connector.

I might even get a match barrels for them.

I hope the OD Green Glocks dont go anywhere for the time being, I realized that the new Gen4 guns only come in black.

DocKWL
08-31-2010, 16:59
PS I didn't say that 24% more energy would do 24% more effective damage, just that it would do more damage.

Yes you did:

So, the principle reason to shoot the .40 S&W for self defence is that it delivers 24% more energy and that means, roughly, 24% more tissue damage.

tuica
08-31-2010, 17:21
Never base a caliber choice on expense of ammunition. I hope this needs no further explanation. If it does - then Darwin is at play.

ElectricZombie
08-31-2010, 23:15
I routinely carry 9mm and .40 pistols. I can't say that I feel one caliber is superior to the other; just different. I'm confident that either is more than adequate for CCW. I shoot both calibers about the same, so either is fine with me. .40 does offer a bit more power, but that's not a huge concern IMO. Pick whatever you shoot best.

English
09-01-2010, 07:27
Originally Posted by English View Post
PS I didn't say that 24% more energy would do 24% more effective damage, just that it would do more damage.

Yes you did:

Originally Posted by English
So, the principle reason to shoot the .40 S&W for self defence is that it delivers 24% more energy and that means, roughly, 24% more tissue damage.

I suppose you deserve a kind of admiration for your ability to take sentences out of context as well as miss the significance of the word "roughly". The full part of the post was as follows:

Originally Posted by English
So, the principle reason to shoot the .40 S&W for self defence is that it delivers 24% more energy and that means, roughly, 24% more tissue damage. Unfortunately 24% more tissue damage does not equate to 24% more tissue that is disabled for the period of the fight. It might be more or less than 24%, but it does mean that substantially more tissue is put out of action per shot.

If you have the knowledge you claim but never demonstrate, you will know that total work done against tissue is directly proportional to energy expended. Some of that energy goes into deforming the bullet but the energy loss to deformation of a 9mm bullet relative to .40 bullet is likely to be close to the same 24% energy difference and is small in any case so we can neglect it for simple purposes.

Next, an amount of tissue is pulverised. This equates to the permanent cavity but to put that tissue out of comission we don't need to pulverise it so we can think of it as wasted energy or overkill. But, once again the difference is likely to be close to the 24% difference so we still maintain the roughly 24% difference.

Then we have the bigger volume of tissue which suffers tears, bruising and nerve disruption which makes that tissue non functional for periods ranging from the few seconds of the fight up to permanent local loss of function. Once again this is quite likely to be close to the 24% difference.

The permanent cavity, the temprary cavity and the consequent tissue damage caused by the .40S&W are all greater than that caused by the 9mm.

Rather than explain all this, I used the word, "roughly" and I followed that sentence immediately with the two sentences, "Unfortunately 24% more tissue damage does not equate to 24% more tissue that is disabled for the period of the fight. It might be more or less than 24%, but it does mean that substantially more tissue is put out of action per shot." I find it hard to see how you can dispute this, but then, you have face to save.

I am inclined to think that you should feel ashamed of yourself but since you have shown no signs of such an inclination before it is too much to hope for now. Instead of that, from your superior experience and knowledge, perhaps you could explain at which points in the above process the 24% looses or gains a little in useful damage effect, but since you have never once to my knowledge explained anything, that too is unlikely to happen.

English

Eagle22
09-01-2010, 08:45
My head hurts, Flip a coin and be done with it.

david wright
09-01-2010, 09:47
Why shoot a 9mm when a 40s 10mm higher speed more weight bigger hole!! Better man stopper, why do you think the FBI went to it from the 10mm, yeah i know that it was also because of the recoil of the bad to the bone 10mm, so the lightened the bullet and shortened the case of the 10mm walla the 40 S&W was born. Its a very awesome round, some say even better than the old faithfull 45ACP. It does have more kick than a 45ACP in my opion much more so with the lite frame guns like GLOCK and SIG. Its simply my favorite cal period! Get one trust me you will never go back to 9mm, unless u need a backup...Lol

david wright

Roering
09-01-2010, 10:52
I have been a 9mm guy for a long time. I really like the high capacity, Tell me why a 40 is a better choice for CCW.

This will be fun. :popcorn:

Okay....

the .40 is better than the 9 because even if you don't hit the BG he will run away from the gun exploding.



-BTW I prefer the .40

fredj338
09-01-2010, 13:01
Well now I like the 10mm best. It is the same diameter as the 40 yet tons more powerful. I can carry the same amount of rounds in the gun.

I soon will be buying a G20 and G29 both in OD Green.

I will be looking for a good 22lr conversion for them both once that happens.

Both will get my home-done polish job and a 3.5 connector.

I might even get a match barrels for them.

I hope the OD Green Glocks dont go anywhere for the time being, I realized that the new Gen4 guns only come in black.
KAK, it's not really "tons more pwoerful". Seriously, what are we talking about, 150ft#s? That isn't going to win or lose the fight, and all in a much bigger gun.

KAK
09-01-2010, 13:22
KAK, it's not really "tons more pwoerful". Seriously, what are we talking about, 150ft#s? That isn't going to win or lose the fight, and all in a much bigger gun.

Well the double taps are 720ft-lbs. :wow:

It just makes complete sense that they are the same diameter and yet they are more powerful. I like the guns with the larger handle, and you can hunt with a 10mm. I have heard it said that the glock 29 carries like a g19.

My other carry gun will still be a Kel Tec PF-9, for deep concealment and on the job. Everyone needs a little gun too.

On top of everything else. If there is another Obama ammo scare, I can easily convert it to a flawless 40.

BOGE
09-01-2010, 16:34
Well the double taps are 720ft-lbs. :wow:

It just makes complete sense that they are the same diameter and yet they are more powerful. I like the guns with the larger handle, and you can hunt with a 10mm. I have heard it said that the glock 29 carries like a g19...

Firstly, the Glock 10mm´s do not CCW like a G19 IMO. They use the wider .45 ACP/.45 GAP slide. You need a bigger holster). However, in defense of the 10mm it is to the .40 S&W what the .357 SIG is to the 9mm. Same bullet diam. but lots more ´´oomph´´ (highly technical term :whistling: ).

I have shot a fella´s G20 with a grip reduction with hot handloads & it was sweet. I think a Gen 4 G20 may be just what some are looking for.

CanyonMan
09-01-2010, 17:56
Bob, you seem to think that the less than 0.001 second is in favour of your position. It is not! What it means is that all of the momentum transfer is delivered and absorbed within that very short period. It is a very abrupt jolt!

If you use a bullet which shoots through and through, that is your problem, not mine.
It will move her nearly as much as firing the pistol would. I am not and have not claimed any more!
Your lack of understanding of physical processes is showing again. You are assuming that the photogrqaph shows a continuous stream which starts out closest to the source, the punctured can, and is then diverted by later forces. The reality is different. The fluid leaves the can in a direction which combines any movement within the liquid inside the can and an acceleration perpendicular to the pressure gradient in the can. When the can is first puntured, the center of pressure is close to the point of entryand so fluid will spray out close to tangentially and this is especially true when the bullet is only part way through the entry hole. What you see as "fish hook" shapes are just the parts of the fluid which were ejected first. For later parts the center of pressure had moved further into the can and so the direction of ejection changed. The photo shows a moment in time but if you could see a sequence of photos you would see that the "fish hooks" were always going in that same direction.

This is not to say that there are no vacuum effects but their magnitude, driven by less than 15 lbs/sqare inch are totally minor relative to the forces excerted by the bullet and the pressures inside the can or body.

Fibres can be dragged into the wound as well but there will be a brief inrush of air which can also suck light fibers into the wound channel. This has no relationship to spatter on the exit side. Spatter is created by the pressur in front of the bullet bursting material out of what becomes the exit hole before the bullet gets there. i am sure that you know that a non deforming bullet, provided it is fast enough, will create a bigger exit than entry hole. This is because the pressure in front of the bullet blows out the tissue before the bullet gets there.
I don't dispute these but all they are saying is that wider, less streamlined bullets create wider temporary cavities at equivalent speeds.
Naughty naughty! This just shows that the bullet gets to the jug and bursts it before you can see the muzzle flip! If you took the photo, say, a tenth of a second later, you would see substantial muzzle flip!
Well yes, and the Steyr is a good choice, but this is nothing to do with what we are talking about is it?




Hoss, Bob has forgotten more than you will ever know. You really need to brush up on, or just flat learn what your talking about. You are not doing very well thus far. This is truly hilarious (but some how sad as well) gibberish you are/have been posting.

No need to fire away, I won't respond. That is your M.O. to try and lure folks into your long and very perplexing conversations that make no sense. You do the same thing on General Glocking as well. No thanks for me, as Bob and some others have already explained and with photo's, but you do not have an ear to hear nor do you want to learn, only argue, and try to look smart. Would it not be better to just humble yourself while ya can, and stop talking about what you have no understanding of ?

I'm sure you'll have some sharp words of sarcasim for me as you usually do for me and others, if not, well that will be a step in the right direction for you. I am begining to actually feel sorry for ya, I really mean that. Not many are buying into the poor information you are giving out. It is truly full of holes.

I mean this, and i mean it politely as I know how. Take a good look man, and ask yourself "why."



Good luck to ya.




CanyonMan

English
09-02-2010, 07:02
CanyonMan,
As I have said to your co-ideologues, make a single constructive criticism and I will answer it. None of you ever have been able to do so and I doubt that you can now, but you have already declared that you won't answer so that is an easy get out for you.

The reason you find me incomprehensible is that you don't understand basic physics. Bob has the same problem. It is almost certainly too late for you to do anything about it.

The reason my posts are long is because the subject is clearly not easy for most to understand - especially since you and your co anti physics, anti rational argument and refutation ideologues have been peddling nonsense for so long. A description of a relatively complex process in refutation of nonsense does become long. I refer you back to post 63 where I was forced to make a long description of something shorter that I thought simple enough that I had said earlier but which was either purposfully misrepresented or strangely misunderstood by your friend DocKWL.

I can entirely understand how my rational, sequential explanations of the physics of terminal balistics and their effects on the person shot will irritate you and while I have no interest in causing irritation in general, your distress does not bother me in the least. Try to be equally honest and stop wishing me good luck and pretending to be sorry for me. Your expressions of concern, honesty and sincerity sound as honest as most politicians.

English

tahco gunworks
09-02-2010, 07:56
Your lack of understanding regarding terminal ballistics is appalling; even for this forum.
You are only 24% correct. Based on a statistical correction factor of 85% with a 0.005 time shot element, he has a point:whistling:

Pecos Bill
09-02-2010, 11:23
SORRY, I can't do that.

pant3ra
09-02-2010, 12:40
CanyonMan,
As I have said to your co-ideologues, make a single constructive criticism and I will answer it. None of you ever have been able to do so and I doubt that you can now, but you have already declared that you won't answer so that is an easy get out for you.

The reason you find me incomprehensible is that you don't understand basic physics. Bob has the same problem. It is almost certainly too late for you to do anything about it.

The reason my posts are long is because the subject is clearly not easy for most to understand - especially since you and your co anti physics, anti rational argument and refutation ideologues have been peddling nonsense for so long. A description of a relatively complex process in refutation of nonsense does become long. I refer you back to post 63 where I was forced to make a long description of something shorter that I thought simple enough that I had said earlier but which was either purposfully misrepresented or strangely misunderstood by your friend DocKWL.

I can entirely understand how my rational, sequential explanations of the physics of terminal balistics and their effects on the person shot will irritate you and while I have no interest in causing irritation in general, your distress does not bother me in the least. Try to be equally honest and stop wishing me good luck and pretending to be sorry for me. Your expressions of concern, honesty and sincerity sound as honest as most politicians.

English


:rofl::rofl::rofl: Doesn't this clown live in london? Does your gov't over there even trust you with guns? Lay off the Call Of Duty 4 and "deactivated" firearms you need a license for. LOL

Glolt20-91
09-02-2010, 13:26
I suppose you deserve a kind of admiration for your ability to take sentences out of context as well as miss the significance of the word "roughly". The full part of the post was as follows:



If you have the knowledge you claim but never demonstrate, you will know that total work done against tissue is directly proportional to energy expended. Some of that energy goes into deforming the bullet but the energy loss to deformation of a 9mm bullet relative to .40 bullet is likely to be close to the same 24% energy difference and is small in any case so we can neglect it for simple purposes.

Next, an amount of tissue is pulverised. This equates to the permanent cavity but to put that tissue out of comission we don't need to pulverise it so we can think of it as wasted energy or overkill. But, once again the difference is likely to be close to the 24% difference so we still maintain the roughly 24% difference.

Then we have the bigger volume of tissue which suffers tears, bruising and nerve disruption which makes that tissue non functional for periods ranging from the few seconds of the fight up to permanent local loss of function. Once again this is quite likely to be close to the 24% difference.

The permanent cavity, the temprary cavity and the consequent tissue damage caused by the .40S&W are all greater than that caused by the 9mm.

Rather than explain all this, I used the word, "roughly" and I followed that sentence immediately with the two sentences, "Unfortunately 24% more tissue damage does not equate to 24% more tissue that is disabled for the period of the fight. It might be more or less than 24%, but it does mean that substantially more tissue is put out of action per shot." I find it hard to see how you can dispute this, but then, you have face to save.


I am inclined to think that you should feel ashamed of yourself but since you have shown no signs of such an inclination before it is too much to hope for now. Instead of that, from your superior experience and knowledge, perhaps you could explain at which points in the above process the 24% looses or gains a little in useful damage effect, but since you have never once to my knowledge explained anything, that too is unlikely to happen.

English

Pulverized and out of commission, give me a break, learn how to use the professional word - comminution.

Your 24% comparison is totally incorrect, and this is why;

(***where Vcav equals the lower velocity limit of the cavitation regime, Mw equals the predicted mass of the tissue within the wound cavity and Xcm equals the predicted penetration in soft tissue/calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin)

Hornady 9mm 147 gr. XTP 995 fps and 0.575" expansion...
Impact velocity: 995fps – 323 fpe
Average recovered diameter: 0.575”

Vcav = 412.613 fps
Mw = 49.0965 grams – 1.73 ounces (very, very nice!)
Xcm = 39.814 cm (15.675 inches)

Now let's compare a .40S&W/180gr JHP with 143 ft/lbs more than the 9mm/147gr; according to you, the 180gr should "pulverize" roughly 24% more than whatever; however, the 180gr PDX in this heads up test, has a lot more energy than your quoted 24%, so it really must do a lot more "pulverizing" than the 9mm.

Winchester .40S&W 180 gr. PDX1 JHP
Impact velocity: 1080 fps 466 fpe
Recovered weight: 180 gr.
Average recovered diameter: 0.609"

Vcav = 405.563 fps
Mw = 52.229 grams (1.842 ounces)
Xcm = 39.008 cm (15.357 inches)

In this test, both the 9mm and .40S&W basically share the same crush cavity and penetration numbers; you do your own testing and math, then post your results for us to read.

Bob :cowboy:

Glolt20-91
09-02-2010, 13:31
Hoss, Bob has forgotten more than you will ever know. You really need to brush up on, or just flat learn what your talking about. You are not doing very well thus far. This is truly hilarious (but some how sad as well) gibberish you are/have been posting.

No need to fire away, I won't respond. That is your M.O. to try and lure folks into your long and very perplexing conversations that make no sense. You do the same thing on General Glocking as well. No thanks for me, as Bob and some others have already explained and with photo's, but you do not have an ear to hear nor do you want to learn, only argue, and try to look smart. Would it not be better to just humble yourself while ya can, and stop talking about what you have no understanding of ?

I'm sure you'll have some sharp words of sarcasim for me as you usually do for me and others, if not, well that will be a step in the right direction for you. I am begining to actually feel sorry for ya, I really mean that. Not many are buying into the poor information you are giving out. It is truly full of holes.

I mean this, and i mean it politely as I know how. Take a good look man, and ask yourself "why."



Good luck to ya.




CanyonMan

I dunno CM, don't remember forgetting very much; plus, not all of us possess the intellectual level of an expert physics/terminal ballistics school master. :tongueout:

Bob :cowboy:

bmylesk
09-02-2010, 13:33
why would you not want to punch through something like a .40. i would use a BB gun if i wanted to just ding it like a 9....

CanyonMan
09-02-2010, 14:19
I dunno CM, don't remember forgetting very much; plus, not all of us possess the intellectual level of an expert physics/terminal ballistics school master. :tongueout:

Bob :cowboy:


:rofl:

I hear ya amigo !


Adios.



CM

ncglock30
09-02-2010, 20:33
I used to like the .40 until I shot a .357sig. Now my G27 and G23 are gone and I own a G32 and a G33 along with a G26. I trust the 9mm to carry, but I love the follow up shots I get with my G32 and G33.

Glolt20-91
09-03-2010, 00:29
I used to like the .40 until I shot a .357sig. Now my G27 and G23 are gone and I own a G32 and a G33 along with a G26. I trust the 9mm to carry, but I love the follow up shots I get with my G32 and G33.

Good observations, depending upon bullet selections, the fast nines (.38Super, 9x23mm and .357SIG) outperform the 9mm and .40S&W, plus the shallow cavity 125gr Gold Dot doesn't plug up penetrating outer clothing, sheetrock or wood et al.

Bob :cowboy:

English
09-03-2010, 05:27
Pulverized and out of commission, give me a break, learn how to use the professional word - comminution.
Well Bob, I wasn't trying to write just for those who know how to use the professional words and I wonder if you do. Comminution simply means pulverized. In other words it is jargon that provides little if any extra meaning. In fact, neither is a good word for what happens to that tissue since the extreme gradient of the pressure field has burst the cells rather than ground them to powder. I should have used the word "pureed" with an accute accent over the first e.

Out of commission means something totally different though something that is pulverized will usually be put out of comission. If, for example, I were to sever your bicep with a sharp knife, I would have pureed only a very small proportion of its cells, but it would be completely out of commission. Equally, if I slid a large sharp hook under your bicep and pulled it out away from the bone so that it was stretched not quite to tearing point and then removed the hook, your bicep would almost certainly be out of commission for some time afterwards. This might be seconds or minutes but its non functional state, for as long as it lasted would be nothing to do with being pureed though some small proportion of cells under close pressure from the hook might be so damaged. If your bicep was stretched enough to produce internal tears then its function would also be greatly reduced for the period during which it healed and the scar tissue would cause reduced function for the rest of your life. Again, the damage would not be as a result of cells being pureed but of cells being separated.

These kinds of stretch injuries are just the same as the injuries caused by the stretching produced around the temporary cavity. Some of those injuries are gross tears which put tissue out of commission just as severing the bicep puts it out of commission. Others produce micro tears which put tissue out of commission to a greater or lesser extend for an extended period. Others do little lasting damage but produce a temporary numbing which puts that tissue out of commission for as little as a few seconds or minutes.

It would be nice if you could stop thinking about permanent cavities, blood loss and vital organs long enough to think of the effects that these injuries have on the immediate fighting capability of the victim rather than whether he will die from those injuries, because that is what I have been talking about.

Your 24% comparison is totally incorrect, and this is why;

(***where Vcav equals the lower velocity limit of the cavitation regime, Mw equals the predicted mass of the tissue within the wound cavity and Xcm equals the predicted penetration in soft tissue/calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin)

Hornady 9mm 147 gr. XTP 995 fps and 0.575" expansion...
Impact velocity: 995fps – 323 fpe
Average recovered diameter: 0.575”

Vcav = 412.613 fps
Mw = 49.0965 grams – 1.73 ounces (very, very nice!)
Xcm = 39.814 cm (15.675 inches)

Now let's compare a .40S&W/180gr JHP with 143 ft/lbs more than the 9mm/147gr; according to you, the 180gr should "pulverize" roughly 24% more than whatever; however, the 180gr PDX in this heads up test, has a lot more energy than your quoted 24%, so it really must do a lot more "pulverizing" than the 9mm.

Winchester .40S&W 180 gr. PDX1 JHP
Impact velocity: 1080 fps 466 fpe
Recovered weight: 180 gr.
Average recovered diameter: 0.609"

Vcav = 405.563 fps
Mw = 52.229 grams (1.842 ounces)
Xcm = 39.008 cm (15.357 inches)

In this test, both the 9mm and .40S&W basically share the same crush cavity and penetration numbers; you do your own testing and math, then post your results for us to read.

Bob :cowboy:

This is basically hyper jargon. It has the appearance of explaing something but explains nothing. You do not give your assumptions. You give predicted penetration which seems to be based on 10% ordnance gelatin, as in, "the predicted penetration in soft tissue/calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin". So is the calculation of predicted "comminution", 1.73 and 1.84oz respectively the ammount of gelatin that is comminuted or is it cellular tissue? You don't give the density of material that this calculation is based on or define what material you are talking about.

The difference in energy is 44% but the difference in comminution, by your calculation, is only 6%. So far less of the .40S&W's extra energy is wasted on this overkil than might be expected. That just means that more than expected is left to do more useful damage. Where does that energy go? Unfortunately we can have no idea from your regurgitated mathematics because it is concerned only with gelatin and not with cellular tissue. It does not even concern itself with the extent of tears within the gelatin or the size of the temporary cavity.

This whole terminal ballistics philosophy of yours falls into a common form of trap. It starts with a fallacious model which is related to injuries which cause death rather than injuries which cause some degree of immediate partial incapacitation and so denies any value to the temporary cavity in spite of obvious post mortem evidence of extensive tearing and bloodshot tissue outside the permanent cavity. That is, it restricts itself to blood loss and direct CNS trauma. It then creates a functional model, ordnance gelatin, which reflects the behaviour of soft tissue with respect to its fallacious model. It then goes on to treat its functional model as though it is reality.

In computing, the analogue of this paradigm is known as GIGO - garbage in, garbage out. In mathematics, it is a basic understanding that false assumptions produce false conclusions but at least in mathematics the process is used to prove false assumptions to be false. I have been showing you why your assumptions are false but you are too blinkered to see it.

If you want to argue against my proposition you need to go back to basics and not regurgitate mathematics based on false assumptions.

Let me try to make something clear about the nature of a gun fight and in particular of a close range gun fight. The highest priority is not to get shot. From that starting point, given that the gunfight cannot be escaped, what is your best strategy? Is it to take the time to make the perfect fight finishing shot, which might result in you being shot before you make that shot, or is it to make the first hit as quickly as you can, in acceptance that accuracy will be compromised, and in the hope or belief that that your will make it harder for the BG to hit you before you can make your next hit?

As handgun rounds cannot be counted on to stop a fight with a single shot to COM and as the great majority of handgun fights take from 3 to 8 hits to stop that individual from continuing to fight, which strategy seems to fit reality better? If it is the multiple shot strategy, how does the good guy survive while delivering those 3 to 8 shots? Or is gunfighting just a form of mutual suicide as both parties are hit with approximately the same number of shots and one just takes a little longer to die than the other?

English

BOGE
09-03-2010, 09:11
...If it is the multiple shot strategy, how does the good guy survive while delivering those 3 to 8 shots?...

They call it ´´taking cover´´. :wavey:

English
09-03-2010, 11:45
They call it ´´taking cover´´. :wavey:

Most gunfights are ambushes. LEOs ambush criminals. Criminals ambush LEOs. Criminals ambush civilians. Civilians don't ambush anyone or they become criminals by doing so.

Therefore, civilians get into gun fights almost only when they are ambushed. That is, to a civilian a fight is almost always a surprise to which they have to react by submitting, running away or fighting.

Ambushers almost always have the sense to set up their ambush in a position that suits them. That means there will be no nearby cover or easy escape route for their victim. Trying either of these without fighting is almost certain to result in being shot. Most active contacts between civilians and criminals are the result of the criminals wanting something that the civilian possesses and so most such contacts are within a yard or three. Running for cover will get you shot in the back. In some cases, of course, the criminal will just shoot the civilian target as the first action. In this case there is little that can be done to prevent it but it is a rare criminal strategy. In general criminals rely on threat of violence and non lethal violence.

Therefore, the concept of taking cover is not something of much use to a civilian. His or her choices come down to submission or fighting. Fighting can, of course, be combined with evasive movement. The combination of those two things are what a civilian has to rely on if he is not to get shot. This might be preceded by deception - the victim can pretend to be giving in, can grovel, can flop around with apparent lack of control but all of this requires some skill at acting and might be a tactic only open to a few.

English

Glolt20-91
09-03-2010, 12:56
Most gunfights are ambushes. LEOs ambush criminals. Criminals ambush LEOs. Criminals ambush civilians. Civilians don't ambush anyone or they become criminals by doing so.

Therefore, civilians get into gun fights almost only when they are ambushed. That is, to a civilian a fight is almost always a surprise to which they have to react by submitting, running away or fighting.

Ambushers almost always have the sense to set up their ambush in a position that suits them. That means there will be no nearby cover or easy escape route for their victim. Trying either of these without fighting is almost certain to result in being shot. Most active contacts between civilians and criminals are the result of the criminals wanting something that the civilian possesses and so most such contacts are within a yard or three. Running for cover will get you shot in the back. In some cases, of course, the criminal will just shoot the civilian target as the first action. In this case there is little that can be done to prevent it but it is a rare criminal strategy. In general criminals rely on threat of violence and non lethal violence.

Therefore, the concept of taking cover is not something of much use to a civilian. His or her choices come down to submission or fighting. Fighting can, of course, be combined with evasive movement. The combination of those two things are what a civilian has to rely on if he is not to get shot. This might be preceded by deception - the victim can pretend to be giving in, can grovel, can flop around with apparent lack of control but all of this requires some skill at acting and might be a tactic only open to a few.

English

The ratio of blade vs gun assaults is 6:1, but, the rest of your post makes for entertaining reading.

Your energy relationships between a 9mm 147gr XTP and the .40 S&W 180gr PDX is an incorrect principle;

The difference in energy is 44% but the difference in comminution, by your calculation, is only 6%. So far less of the .40S&W's extra energy is wasted on this overkil than might be expected. That just means that more than expected is left to do more useful damage. Where does that energy go? Unfortunately we can have no idea from your regurgitated mathematics because it is concerned only with gelatin and not with cellular tissue. It does not even concern itself with the extent of tears within the gelatin or the size of the temporary cavity.


and

If you have the knowledge you claim but never demonstrate, you will know that total work done against tissue is directly proportional to energy expended. Some of that energy goes into deforming the bullet but the energy loss to deformation of a 9mm bullet relative to .40 bullet is likely to be close to the same 24% energy difference and is small in any case so we can neglect it for simple purposes.

Next, an amount of tissue is pulverised. This equates to the permanent cavity but to put that tissue out of comission we don't need to pulverise it so we can think of it as wasted energy or overkill. But, once again the difference is likely to be close to the 24% difference so we still maintain the roughly 24% difference.

Then we have the bigger volume of tissue which suffers tears, bruising and nerve disruption which makes that tissue non functional for periods ranging from the few seconds of the fight up to permanent local loss of function. Once again this is quite likely to be close to the 24% difference.

The permanent cavity, the temprary cavity and the consequent tissue damage caused by the .40S&W are all greater than that caused by the 9mm.

Rather than explain all this, I used the word, "roughly" and I followed that sentence immediately with the two sentences, "Unfortunately 24% more tissue damage does not equate to 24% more tissue that is disabled for the period of the fight. It might be more or less than 24%, but it does mean that substantially more tissue is put out of action per shot." I find it hard to see how you can dispute this, but then, you have face to save.


because

The diameter of the temporary cavity is primarily a function of drag force, and so can rather easily be used to detect the kind of velocity sensitive drag rise that exists in compressible fluids.

We'll make this a simple question, do you agree with the following quote; yes or no answer;

The Newtonian Flow solution modified with momentum interchange does not give useful quantification of forces in soft solids, but this analytical approach does show drag coefficient values that are independent of both viscosity and velocity in the cavitation regime. This viscosity and velocity independence has been demonstrated in soft solid testing in the cavitation regime, so the analysis gives conceptual rationale for this phenomenology.

The cavitation regime only exists above a threshold velocity magnitude (Vc = cavitation velocity measured in feet per second). The value of Vc is zero and there is a vacuum after the separation point in corpuscular and non-interacting fluid flow (Newtonian Flow), but the pressure in any real fluid flow drives fluid mass into the separated area, albeit at a lower pressure. The shear force resistance of gelatin to deformation produces a response somewhat similar to fluid pressure, but much smaller in magnitude, so the gelatin lateral velocity resulting from interaction with the body must be above a threshold value to maintain cavitation. As a result, Vc is a strong function of configuration and must be determined by empirical testing.


Bob :cowboy:

dreis454
09-03-2010, 13:11
^^^ Ummmm huh?:dunno:

david wright
09-03-2010, 13:39
I argree, the answer to this is simple, home owner + 12 gauge pump + oo buckshot + home intruder = one dead SOB intruder. People can say what they want, but until uve shot a 185lb deer at 30 yards with a 12 gauge w oo buck, ur just not going to beleive the trama and overkill of this weapon, its like shooting a howitzer up to 50 yards. Plus u can blast threw what ever the intruders behind, walls coouches, doors whatever. Ive seen crime scenes that a fella with a shotty distroyed his house in a gun battle over drugs, he was hit but the other two guys werent only dead they were splattered all over the place. There own parrents couldnt id them at the morg. Ur best bet is a defensive position with a 12 gauge hands down.

david wright

bjesse60
09-03-2010, 17:59
cause the .40 is actually powerful enough to reliably cycle the action on a gen 4 pistol.

:rofl:

English
09-04-2010, 05:22
^^^ Ummmm huh?:dunno:

+1.


Bob,
That seemed to to totally off the point and before I will answer your question I want a yes or no answer from you to the classic question, "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?"

English

Glolt20-91
09-04-2010, 10:27
+1.


Bob,
That seemed to to totally off the point and before I will answer your question I want a yes or no answer from you to the classic question, "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?"

English

Actually, the question you refused to answer is spot on and refutes your incorrect energy assumption relating to the 9mm/.40S&W question made by the OP.

As to your wife beating question, that's a new low on the forum, even for you. Never have, never will, but I've had the satisfaction of arresting 'wife beaters' and putting them in the slammer. Sometimes when these nefarious sorts of 'men' resist and are taken down hard, they pee their pants.

BTW, interesting insight into you projecting your thought processes onto to someone else.

Bob :cowboy:

Glolt20-91
09-04-2010, 10:34
I argree, the answer to this is simple, home owner + 12 gauge pump + oo buckshot + home intruder = one dead SOB intruder. People can say what they want, but until uve shot a 185lb deer at 30 yards with a 12 gauge w oo buck, ur just not going to beleive the trama and overkill of this weapon, its like shooting a howitzer up to 50 yards. Plus u can blast threw what ever the intruders behind, walls coouches, doors whatever. Ive seen crime scenes that a fella with a shotty distroyed his house in a gun battle over drugs, he was hit but the other two guys werent only dead they were splattered all over the place. There own parrents couldnt id them at the morg. Ur best bet is a defensive position with a 12 gauge hands down.

david wright

I've carried the 12 guage on door entries, it's certainly has the most devestating terminal effects that's carried in those situations; but it felt awkward transitioning. I prefer the M16, or M4; especially with Hornady's 75gr BTHP, very large crush cavities.

Bob :cowboy:

English
09-04-2010, 13:53
Actually, the question you refused to answer is spot on and refutes your incorrect energy assumption relating to the 9mm/.40S&W question made by the OP.

As to your wife beating question, that's a new low on the forum, even for you. Never have, never will, but I've had the satisfaction of arresting 'wife beaters' and putting them in the slammer. Sometimes when these nefarious sorts of 'men' resist and are taken down hard, they pee their pants.

BTW, interesting insight into you projecting your thought processes onto to someone else.

Bob :cowboy:

Bob,
It is not a new low on the forum at all! You asked for a yes or no answer to a question and I merely repeated a classic, that means well known and long established, question given as an illustration of an impopssible yes/no question by Winston Churchill. Whether you reply yes or no to that question you incriminate yourself and that is the point of its construction. Why should anyone be limited to a yes or no answer to a question from someone who is opposed to them? How stupid do they have to be?

In case you have not yet understood me, I don't for a moment think that you beat your wife. I didn't even know whether you had a wife. Calm down!

As for your question, I cannot answer yes or no without putting in a lot of work to understand something which you have picked out of some publication which you do not even reference. I have no interest in doing that as it does not meet my interests. I give you the benefit of the doubt in believing that you think your posts are answering mine, but they are not. Time is short and I prioritise poorly enough as it is.

Refering back to your far less important first sentence, if your mathematics, or rather someone elses mathematics, is correct, what happens to the extra energy? If the penetration is the same length, more work has to be done to the side of track and since work done in this instance is tissue damage and since your mathematics shows that disproportionately less tissue is pureed, much of that energy has to produce extra tissue separation. Even if some of that energy has to go into elastic extension and collapse without tissue damage, within that zone a greater temporary cavity has to produce a greater zone of tissue separation. it is a simple enough concept that does not need mathematics except to calculate precise numbers but more is more and less is less.

English

Wooderson76
09-04-2010, 18:53
9mm,.40 .45....who cares,its all the same stuff anyway...shoot what works best for you!

NMPOPS
09-04-2010, 22:46
Over the years I've read a lot of research and studies (FBI, Fackler, Sanow, Hatcher, Taylor, Cooper and more) but what it all boils down to in the real world is whether you use 9.40, 45, 44, .357 or even a 38 if you hit center mass you will stop the threat. Practice and accuracy id what really matters. I will admit that since I retired 985 of the time I carry a 5 shot .38 loaded with +P rounds and occasionally my 26 or 19 with Federal 124+P+. Either way I feel armed well enough to handle whatevr might happen.

RedsoxFan4Lyfe
09-05-2010, 08:06
These threads are always fun to me.
I prefer and carry the 1911 in .45acp myself. Use what you prefer and what you are proficient with. Its as simple as that.

Is .40 better than 9mm? Maybe so, its bigger and its heavier. It just might be. I dont buy into any handgun round being a death ray. They are all a compromise compared to a rifle or a shotgun. I dont buy they are "all the same" either. I believe that bigger rounds have an advantage if only a slight one.

I have a friend who's first and only gun is a Glock 19. He is one of the best shots I have ever seen. Its scary how fast and well he can shoot even on the move. Im sure he would do fine in a gunfight. The 9mm does its job very well.

Im not a caliber snob in the least. I just prefer bigger rounds myself. Its unlikely any of us will ever need our carry guns for defense of ourselves or our loved ones. Should that time come, your mindset, training, and tactics, and pure dumb luck will decide the outcome more so than the caliber of your pistol IMO.

There are caliber failures of every caliber. There seem to be less with the .45 and .357 Magnum calibers, as well as the .40, they do seem to do better in real world usage than the 9mm does or has. I dont know why that is. Maybe there are many more 9mm pistols in use and therefore more shootings with the 9mm which would lead to more failures etc.

I dont know of too many agencies that issue .45acp these days. I know every PD around here and all over Florida uses .40 pistols, and mostly Glocks. It seems to dominate LEO circles, and there must be a reason for that. Its not cost. They have the money between tax dollars and asset seizures to afford whatever they want I would think.

Its fun to debate on the net. Where the rubber meets the road so to speak I want a bigger bullet should the flag go up.

dreis454
09-05-2010, 09:07
These threads are always fun to me.
I prefer and carry the 1911 in .45acp myself. Use what you prefer and what you are proficient with. Its as simple as that.

Is .40 better than 9mm? Maybe so, its bigger and its heavier. It just might be. I dont buy into any handgun round being a death ray. They are all a compromise compared to a rifle or a shotgun. I dont buy they are "all the same" either. I believe that bigger rounds have an advantage if only a slight one.

I have a friend who's first and only gun is a Glock 19. He is one of the best shots I have ever seen. Its scary how fast and well he can shoot even on the move. Im sure he would do fine in a gunfight. The 9mm does its job very well.

Im not a caliber snob in the least. I just prefer bigger rounds myself. Its unlikely any of us will ever need our carry guns for defense of ourselves or our loved ones. Should that time come, your mindset, training, and tactics, and pure dumb luck will decide the outcome more so than the caliber of your pistol IMO.

There are caliber failures of every caliber. There seem to be less with the .45 and .357 Magnum calibers, as well as the .40, they do seem to do better in real world usage than the 9mm does or has. I dont know why that is. Maybe there are many more 9mm pistols in use and therefore more shootings with the 9mm which would lead to more failures etc.

I dont know of too many agencies that issue .45acp these days. I know every PD around here and all over Florida uses .40 pistols, and mostly Glocks. It seems to dominate LEO circles, and there must be a reason for that. Its not cost. They have the money between tax dollars and asset seizures to afford whatever they want I would think.

Its fun to debate on the net. Where the rubber meets the road so to speak I want a bigger bullet should the flag go up.
IMO this was a well thought out & written post which makes sense.
I agree with ALL of it except the user name of the author.
(I hate the Red Sox):whistling:

The Retired Sarge
09-05-2010, 10:51
All of the recognized combat handgun calibers work or fail about the same. The edge will always be with the larger/more powerful caliber but it is a slight edge. Choose the platform/caliber/bullet that you shoot best and functions well in your pistol. Practice and shot placement is the key. I will always take whatever "edge" I can get concerning combat. Bill

cadillacguns
09-07-2010, 03:05
Lets say your an average sized caveman, Barako, from an inner jungle tribe is threatening to take your cave and rape your Wilma. Outside the cave you spot two roicks your could to use to crush your attackers skull. Ones slightly bigger than the other, you know you can smack a gator up side the head with a rock of either size.

So simple even you can do it.

You pick the slightly bigger rock, don't you?

cowboy1964
09-07-2010, 06:59
Lets say your an average sized caveman, Barako, from an inner jungle tribe is threatening to take your cave and rape your Wilma. Outside the cave you spot two roicks your could to use to crush your attackers skull. Ones slightly bigger than the other, you know you can smack a gator up side the head with a rock of either size.

So simple even you can do it.

You pick the slightly bigger rock, don't you?

What if multiple swings of the rock are required to neutralize the threat? Wouldn't the slightly smaller rock allow faster follow up swings?

The smaller rock is also more affordable so you can practice more! Smaller rocks will also be easier to find, especially in a SHTF situation.

NAC
09-07-2010, 09:00
wow, good thread. I'll submit my take on things. People only stop fighting for one of three reasons or a combination of three. They bleed out, freak out, or have a CNS injury. I carry 9mm but have carried others calibers in the past. Personally, I'll keep shooting until I achieve one of those three.

I've personally seen people hit with .40 and .45 continue to fight. I've seen a 12 year old kid in Iraq get hit with 7.62x51 in the leg and he walked over to us for medical care. Pick a caliber and keep shooting till they bleed out, freak out, or have a CNS hit.

There's too many variables other than caliber and energy that come into play during a gunfight. The human factor is the biggest, you just don't know what kind of drive a person has when they are shot, until they are shot.

Glolt20-91
09-07-2010, 10:58
Lets say your an average sized caveman, Barako, from an inner jungle tribe is threatening to take your cave and rape your Wilma. Outside the cave you spot two roicks your could to use to crush your attackers skull. Ones slightly bigger than the other, you know you can smack a gator up side the head with a rock of either size.

So simple even you can do it.

You pick the slightly bigger rock, don't you?

Ever been hit by a fastball? Another possibility for the kowbamo tribe is to nickle and dime you to death. :tongueout:

Bob :cowboy: :supergrin:

M&P Shooter
09-12-2010, 20:56
Because it's a larger caliber that makes a bigger hole in the same size gun as a 9mm. A slightly bigger hole is still a bigger hole and I want any advantage in a gun fight. Gel says one thing but officer involved shootings tell the true tale. Most LE in the U.S. has moved from the 9mm to the .40 and .357sig for a reason.