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KAK
08-25-2010, 18:08
No matter what caliber we choose we have the option to go with different bullet weights. What do you prefer and why?

:popcorn:

cowboy1964
08-25-2010, 18:16
I prefer mid-to-heavy. So 124+P or 147 for 9mm, 165 or 180 for .40. But I'm always more concerned about velocity loss from a particular gun than I am about bullet weight. For example, a .357 Magnum out of a 2" barrel never made sense to me. Or a .45 ACP out of a 3".

ancient_serpent
08-25-2010, 18:27
That's something I'm actually working on figuring out, still.
I have been running 165 gr +P PowR' Ball in my Kimber Pro CDP II.
I'd feel more comfortable with a heavier bullet, but the FMJ profile of that PowR' Ball is very nice to have. At least something in the 200 gr. range.
From ballistic gelatin tests I've seen, the 165 has good penetration. I'd just like to see a heavier bullet weight, with the same basic FMJ design.

GunFighter45ACP
08-25-2010, 21:31
I prefer 'heavy for caliber' except when it comes to 9mm; I seem to prefer 124 +P or 127 +P+. If I could get my hands on 115 +P+, I'd probably like it too.

glock031
08-26-2010, 01:39
I prefer the weight that the bullet was originaly designed with. To the best of my knowledge the 9 in 124gr and the 40 in 180gr.

fredj338
08-26-2010, 12:56
I tend to go middle of the road in any SD caliber. I like to get as much vel as I can w/o giving up penetration (SD). So 124gr/9mm, 165gr/40, 200gr/45, but I would really use any good JHP loading in any of the service calibers.

Zombie Steve
08-26-2010, 14:52
Totally depends on the cartridge, play to its strengths.

Berto
08-26-2010, 14:59
Totally depends on the cartridge, play to its strengths.

I agree.
The 9mm for example has earned decent reputation for its efficiency with light to medium bullets(115-124gr) given its small case and high pressure, whereas the .38sp tends to fair better with heavier bullets (158gr and up) due to its larger case and low pressure.
It comes down to the cartridge and where its efficiencies are best utilized.

BadAndy
08-26-2010, 15:24
I like both options and middle of the road.

115gr +P+, 124gr +P and 147gr standard vel. So far, I've had good results from my 124gr GD +P and 147gr standard vel XTP hand loads...just need to make time to load up some 1300fps 115gr Nosler JHPs to play with.

JK-linux
08-30-2010, 18:26
I generally tend to go heavy in most cases: 124gr 9mm, 230gr .45ACP, 158gr .38SPCL. The exception would be .357 Magnum, as the fairly large amount of results over the years would trend towards the 125gr .357 Magnum being the ideal weight for that particular caliber. Honestly though, I wouldn't feel under gunned with a lighter bullet weight.

M&P Shooter
08-30-2010, 18:27
No matter what caliber we choose we have the option to go with different bullet weights. What do you prefer and why?

:popcorn:
45acp because bigger holes are still bigger holes no matter what anybody says. If a 45acp and 9mm both fail to expand for any reason we both no what still made a bigger hole.

Glockbuster
08-30-2010, 21:45
I like to stay in the middle. I used to have Corbon 135 grainers in my Glock 22, decided this was too light then switched to GD 155 gr. I now carry a G31 with GD 125 grains. The ammo companies seem to have decided for us 357 lovers as 125 grains is the best and only load available from Federal or Speer. If I had to use 9 mm I would stick with 124 gr. +P

mclaren
08-31-2010, 05:46
I also tend to go middle of the road weight. It is important to be using a quality cartrige with a quality bullet in good condition. If you are using Crap+P Hollowpoints, you will get crap results, heavy or light. The same is true I think to a certain extent with quality ammo. If you do your part and sink it where it counts you will still make gains even if the weight is not ideal.
That being said, my bullet weight strategy is usually this; medium weight for all around and go up or down for special occasions.
Until recently I carried a G20 regularly (sold it, miss it) I usually carried 180 grain XTPs or 175 grain Silvertips. If I was going to a known crowded area like a mall or the grocery store, I would load up 155 grain XTPs to limit penetration. For bedside duty or for areas of high risk, low population, I would go up to the 200 grain XTP for maximum penetration.
All of these loads are capable, but there is something confidence inspiring about the 200 grainers, not much will stop them, car doors, windshield, spinal cord etc.

PghJim
09-05-2010, 00:12
I think energy plays a roll, but it is nothing you are going to see from a 2" 38 whether light or not. The 9mm, I would definately go for the 115+p+ for self defense, for the 40 S&W I carry Corbon 135's, although a fast 155gr would be good. The border patrol chose the 155 non-bonded, at least the last time I checked. For some reason the 165 Golden Saber seems to be successful. In 45 ACP it would be 185. Here again, I believe the Golden Sabre has an excellent performance record. Most will tell you that a large temporay stretch cavity has little effect on lethality, and that may be correct. However, a person hit with a bullet that creates one, knows he has been hit. Since over 80% of hangun injuries are survived, my goal is to do whatever it takes to throw the attacker off of his plan. I believe a lighter faster bullet does that. I carry a 357 sig with a Gold Dot 125 gr bullet traveling 1,500+fps. My friends at the FBI have told me of incidents where people have been shot with the 180gr bonded and the bullet seemed to have no immediate effect, even with wounds that ended up being fatal.

Also let me add that the border patrol, who is involved in more shooting that any other agency, believes that 9-10" of penetration is all that is needed.

BOGE
09-05-2010, 01:25
...Also let me add that the border patrol, who is involved in more shooting that any other agency, believes that 9-10" of penetration is all that is needed.

My girlfriends tell me the same thing. :supergrin:

packinaglock
09-05-2010, 07:17
My girlfriends tell me the same thing. :supergrin:

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

PghJim
09-05-2010, 08:23
My girlfriends tell me the same thing. :supergrin:

I truly want to thank you. I was having a bad morning and you really made me laugh.

Erich1B
09-05-2010, 10:03
I think energy plays a roll, but it is nothing you are going to see from a 2" 38 whether light or not. The 9mm, I would definately go for the 115+p+ for self defense, for the 40 S&W I carry Corbon 135's, although a fast 155gr would be good. The border patrol chose the 155 non-bonded, at least the last time I checked. For some reason the 165 Golden Saber seems to be successful. In 45 ACP it would be 185. Here again, I believe the Golden Sabre has an excellent performance record. Most will tell you that a large temporay stretch cavity has little effect on lethality, and that may be correct. However, a person hit with a bullet that creates one, knows he has been hit. Since over 80% of hangun injuries are survived, my goal is to do whatever it takes to throw the attacker off of his plan. I believe a lighter faster bullet does that. I carry a 357 sig with a Gold Dot 125 gr bullet traveling 1,500+fps. My friends at the FBI have told me of incidents where people have been shot with the 180gr bonded and the bullet seemed to have no immediate effect, even with wounds that ended up being fatal.

Also let me add that the border patrol, who is involved in more shooting that any other agency, believes that 9-10" of penetration is all that is needed.

I'm wondering if you handload, because I haven't been able to find 125gr GD's loaded to 1,500+ FPS?

PghJim
09-05-2010, 10:20
I'm wondering if you handload, because I haven't been able to find 125gr GD's loaded to 1,500+ FPS?

Not anymore it is too much trouble, but I was able to get a GD over 1,450fps with power pistol out of a 4" barrel. The 1,500+ are Buffalo Bore purchased about three years ago and when saw how fast they went, I bought about 400. Now the 1,500+ is from a 4.5" barrel. I think the current ones are advertised at 1,430fps from a 4" barrel, but I do not know what bullet he is using since Speer will no longer sell their premium GD bullets to other ammo manufactures.

There is another thread on Buffalo Bore and one of the people who posted claimed he got 1,550+ from BB with G31.

Erich1B
09-05-2010, 10:40
Not anymore it is too much trouble, but I was able to get a GD over 1,450fps with power pistol out of a 4" barrel. The 1,500+ are Buffalo Bore purchased about three years ago and when saw how fast they went, I bought about 400. Now the 1,500+ is from a 4.5" barrel. I think the current ones are advertised at 1,430fps from a 4" barrel, but I do not know what bullet he is using since Speer will no longer sell their premium GD bullets to other ammo manufactures.

There is another thread on Buffalo Bore and one of the people who posted claimed he got 1,550+ from BB with G31.

OK, thanks. I would be all over 1,500+ FPS GD's. But, I don't think I'd see that out of a G33. I carry 125gr Federal HST's in my G33.

Erich

cowboy1964
09-05-2010, 13:07
Also let me add that the border patrol, who is involved in more shooting that any other agency, believes that 9-10" of penetration is all that is needed.

What is your source for that info? Sounds like internet rumor to me.

Anyway, shooting thinner lightly clothed aliens is a whole lot different than shooting a 250lb monster in a leather jacket.

MedicOni
09-05-2010, 13:28
Heavy and fast :)

JBP55
09-05-2010, 14:06
What is your source for that info? Sounds like internet rumor to me.

Anyway, shooting thinner lightly clothed aliens is a whole lot different than shooting a 300 lb. monster in a leather jacket.

Agree and I fixed the weight on the non aliens.

packinaglock
09-05-2010, 15:34
For my 9mm's 124g, for my .40 165g, for my .45gap 230g

vafish
09-05-2010, 18:39
Totally depends on the cartridge, play to its strengths.

+1

.38 Spcial 158 gr +P.

9MM I carry 115 +P+, would probably also go with the middle weights like the 124-127 +P or +P+ loads.

.45 ACP 230 gr

.44 mag 240 gr.

.45 Colt 250-260 gr.

.40 S+W I like the middle weight 155-165 gr loads.


But now days bullet design and construction means a lot more then weight.

PghJim
09-05-2010, 18:43
What is your source for that info? Sounds like internet rumor to me.

Anyway, shooting thinner lightly clothed aliens is a whole lot different than shooting a 250lb monster in a leather jacket.

About 6 years ago I was working for a company that sold LE and emergency response equipment, not guns or bullets. My territory was the southwest. Now the Border Patrol, like most federal agencies, puts out bids for major purchases, but I had chances to stop by and show them what was new. That is were I found out about the ammo and their philosiphy (sp) on penatration.

But you are correct in that their targets do not tend to be heavily clothed.

PghJim
09-05-2010, 18:48
OK, thanks. I would be all over 1,500+ FPS GD's. But, I don't think I'd see that out of a G33. I carry 125gr Federal HST's in my G33.

Erich

I also have a G33, and although I have not chronographed HST's in it, they generally go about 1,360 in my 4" guns and 1,400 in the 4.5". When I reloaded, I was very disapointed by the velocities I got out of my G33 compared to the G32, about 40 -50fps lower. I still carry the G33 sometimes with the BB load, it does around 1,400 in the G33.

cowboywannabe
09-05-2010, 19:05
fast and heavy...like a 10mm 600gr. bullet @ 2100 fps.

MedicOni
09-05-2010, 19:18
fast and heavy...like a 10mm 600gr. bullet @ 2100 fps.

600gr?

cowboywannabe
09-05-2010, 19:21
600gr?

@2100 fps at that.

PghJim
09-05-2010, 19:37
fast and heavy...like a 10mm 600gr. bullet @ 2100 fps.


I do not think I could handle the recoil. But there are two schools of thought. One, lighter and faster that fragments and create a large temporary wound cavity with 10" or less of penetration. Two, a bullet that stays together penetrates deeper (12"+), expands to at least 1.5X with a larger permanent wound cavity.

The truth probably is between. I remember reading Bill Jordan's book, "No Second Place Winner" (I think), and what I remember the most is his statement on using ammunition that will have an immediate affect on your opponent. I believe it was a different time and he carried a S&W M19 Combat 357 Magnum, and said a full power 125 gr 357 magnum was a good round. People hit with that round, knew they were hit. You could actually see them stumble. He then said normal people (not drug crazed) quickly change their priority once they realize they have been shot. I guess that has stuck with me and that is why I carry the fastest 357 sig round I can find. However, there are many good bullets made today and it is a personal choice you should make.

What has amazed me is that one failure of a 9mm Silver Tip bullet changed the way ammunition is now made and judged, and I do not really think that 9mm failed. Every day people shoot bullets that they wish did something it did not. Maybe it was easier for the FBI to blame a bullet than poor tactics, training and equipment. I do not even think they had a shotgun.

cowboywannabe
09-05-2010, 19:50
i was being facecious(sp?).....for me it depends on the caliber on what school i subscribe to.

freakshow10mm
09-05-2010, 19:57
Fast and heavy.

9mm I use 147gr XTP loaded to 1200fps standard pressure.

10mm I use 200gr XTP loaded to 1200fps standard pressure.

In the past I've carried the .45 ACP 230gr XTP loaded to 950fps standard pressure and the 200gr XTP loaded to 1100fps standard pressure.

I currently own, shoot, and carry the 9mm and 10mm.

M1A Shooter
09-05-2010, 20:14
i tend to stay in the middle. i prefer 124gr 9mm and 200gr 45acp.

the argument of bigger holes always seemed funny to me as the difference is .356 vs .451. do you think you will miss by .095" to where a 45 would have made all the difference?

freakshow10mm
09-05-2010, 20:26
It could happen but there's no way to quantify that probability nor advantage of such.

CTM_357
09-05-2010, 22:28
My girlfriends tell me the same thing. :supergrin:


:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl: Too bad i can only use 5 of these!lol

ronin.45
09-06-2010, 20:28
[QUOTE=PghJim;15935278
What has amazed me is that one failure of a 9mm Silver Tip bullet changed the way ammunition is now made and judged, and I do not really think that 9mm failed. Every day people shoot bullets that they wish did something it did not. Maybe it was easier for the FBI to blame a bullet than poor tactics, training and equipment. I do not even think they had a shotgun.[/QUOTE]

There is probably more truth to that than we will ever know. No caliber or bullet design makes up for poor shot placement or misses.

As far as weight/velocity I tend to go with light and fast. I don't really care about penetrating 12+ inches. I don't run into many guys bigger than me and my chest is only about 13" front to back. I want a round to go about half that far and dump all it's energy into the chest cavity. I am a big proponent of temporary wound cavity. I believe that shock is what shuts the central nervous system down.

My preferred carry load is Cor-bon Pow'R ball. I use 100gr. 9mm at around 1475fps and 165gr. .45ACP at around 1075fps. This round is designed to expand instantly upon cantact. It has relatively shallow penetration and expands violently, delivering all of it's energy over a short distance, thereby transferring as much energy as possible. I've done water jug testing on these and was very impressed with the performance. I have also tested the 9mm on living tissue and it performed exactly as advertised.

167
09-07-2010, 21:36
But now days bullet design and construction means a lot more then weight.


I think this is the point to take home.

What weight I go with will depend on which bullet is being used, regardless of caliber.

unit1069
09-11-2010, 06:54
I prefer the weight that the bullet was originaly designed with. To the best of my knowledge the 9 in 124gr and the 40 in 180gr.

I agree

PghJim
09-11-2010, 22:40
I prefer the weight that the bullet was originaly designed with. To the best of my knowledge the 9 in 124gr and the 40 in 180gr.

I may not agree, the FBI first wanted the 10mm in 180gr because the sectional density is the same as a 230 45 ACP. The 180gr 40 came after the 10mm Light. It is true that they tinkered with the 40 S&W to get the 180gr the same velocity as the 10 light. How does that make it the best bullet for the 40 S&W. If you forget all of the above and had a clean sheet of paper to develop the 40 S&W, I bet it would not be the 180gr (unless possibly for hunting). I have yet to see any data showing the 180gr 40 better than the lighter bullets, in fact everything I read shows lighter bullets to be possible better stoppers. A gun and calibers are generally not developed for a particular weight bullet, but rather a range to be the best tool in different applications. When they built the 308 Winchester they didn't say, let's build it around the 168gr bullet.

However, you are right with some calibers, the 357 sig was specifically designed around a 125 grain bullet and it probably is the best weight for that caliber.

shotgunred
09-11-2010, 23:37
Lighter and Faster VS Slow and Heavy.
That is right up there with best caliber. No good answer and people will never agree.

dreis454
09-12-2010, 04:44
Also let me add that the border patrol, who is involved in more shooting that any other agency, believes that 9-10" of penetration is all that is needed.

My girlfriends tell me the same thing. :supergrin:

Do your girlfriends tell ya to come back with 5 more inches?:whistling:

BrokenArrow
09-12-2010, 11:49
Through auto glass, 5 round avgs.

Info from Speer:

230/45 GDSB 13.8/.57
165/40 GD 11.8/.58
124/9 +P GD 14.5/.67 and 14.9/.54

Info from Doc GKR and FBI:

230/45 GD 11.5/.66
155/40 GD 12/.55
125/357 SIG 13.8/.50 and 15.1/.53
124/9 +P GD 11.5/.52

So we got the 230/45 from 11.5 - 13.8, the 155/40 deeper than the 165/40, the 125/357 from 13.8 - 15.1, and the 124/9 from 11.5 - 14.9 inches.

Things that make ya go hmmmm... ;)

Captain
09-13-2010, 19:41
What is your source for that info? Sounds like internet rumor to me.

Anyway, shooting thinner lightly clothed aliens is a whole lot different than shooting a 250lb monster in a leather jacket.

It wasn't 9-10", it was 9". I was at the ballistic protocol symposium in Altoona, PA in May of 1998 when the INS had their symposium. Their reasoning was that there was a VERY high incidence of people stopped immediately with loads that didn't penetrate more than 9", but exhibited a very large TSC.

Glockbuster
09-14-2010, 09:23
It wasn't 9-10", it was 9". I was at the ballistic protocol symposium in Altoona, PA in May of 1998 when the INS had their symposium. Their reasoning was that there was a VERY high incidence of people stopped immediately with loads that didn't penetrate more than 9", but exhibited a very large TSC.

So with this line of thought the notion that penetration is job 1 is thrashed ?

Ive also believed in less penetration and more shock as a better means to stop someone.

M&P Shooter
09-14-2010, 09:29
There is probably more truth to that than we will ever know. No caliber or bullet design makes up for poor shot placement or misses.

As far as weight/velocity I tend to go with light and fast. I don't really care about penetrating 12+ inches. I don't run into many guys bigger than me and my chest is only about 13" front to back. I want a round to go about half that far and dump all it's energy into the chest cavity. I am a big proponent of temporary wound cavity. I believe that shock is what shuts the central nervous system down.

My preferred carry load is Cor-bon Pow'R ball. I use 100gr. 9mm at around 1475fps and 165gr. .45ACP at around 1075fps. This round is designed to expand instantly upon cantact. It has relatively shallow penetration and expands violently, delivering all of it's energy over a short distance, thereby transferring as much energy as possible. I've done water jug testing on these and was very impressed with the performance. I have also tested the 9mm on living tissue and it performed exactly as advertised.
There is always a give and take to selecting ammo. Your choice and theory are correct when dealing with a normal BG but what about the BG F'ed up on drugs like most are and on a mission to score that next fix. Those guys need a penetrating bullet to strike a organ.

BrokenArrow
09-14-2010, 11:01
So with this line of thought the notion that penetration is job 1 is thrashed ?

No, not trashed, just changed from at least 12 inches to at least 9 inches. Or even 8 inches...

The FBI (who tests for the DOJ) does not consider TSC at all, INS (who tested for the BP) did.

From the specs for the old INS/BP 155/40 duty ammo:

1.7 Terminal Ballistic Performance

Each product sample will be fired into Kind and Knox type 250A Ballistic Gelatin mixed to a 10% consistency, and evaluated for penetration and weight retention using the five tests listed above. An active projectile is defined as any primary projectile or any secondary projectile evolving from the primary projectile which creates a separate and distinct penetration of 5 inches or more, and retains a minimum of 20% of the weight of the original projectile.

To received scoring value, active projectiles must penetrate to a minimum depth of 9 inches in 10% ballistic gelatin.
Primary active projectiles will be scored by measuring from the point at which the penetration occurs in the gelatin to a minimum allowable scoring depth of 9 inches to a maximum allowable scoring depth of 12 inches.
Secondary active projectiles will be scored by measuring from the point at which they separate from the primary projectile to a minimum allowable scoring depth of 9 inches and a maximum allowable scoring depth of 12 inches.
Active projectiles that fail to reach a minimum penetration depth of 9 inches or exceed a maximum of 20 inches will receive a score of zero.
Active projectiles that penetrate beyond 12 inches but less than a maximum of 20 inches will not be given additional score and will not be penalized for penetration within this zone.
Fragments that do not meet the criteria for active projectiles, but exceed the maximum allowable depth of 20 inches of penetration, are acceptable.
The gelatin block size for these tests will be 6" x 6" x 16". Additional blocks of gelatin will be used behind the primary block to ensure the capture of projectiles to a penetration depth of 20 inches in the ballistic gelatin.
Best value scoring: The measured values for penetration of the five rounds will be averaged. The product sample exhibiting the greatest measured average value for penetration will receive 200 points. Other product samples will receive a percentage of the maximum number of points equal to the percentage of their average value for penetration as compared to the greatest average value for penetration.

1.7.3 Temporary Stretch Cavitation (TSC) - Test 1B

Five rounds of each product sample will be fired for this test.
The block size of the gelatin will be 10" x 10" x 12". Additional blocks of gelatin will be used behind the primary block to ensure the capture of projectiles to a penetration depth of 20 inches in the ballistic gelatin. No materials or barriers will be placed in front of the block of gelatin.
The TSC will be measured at the point of greatest volume and the volumes averaged.
The test will be recorded using a Kodak high-speed camera.
The analysis and measurements of the test will be accomplished using a Sensors Application Inc. (SAI) model-100 motion analysis computer station and Image Express software specifically designed for tracking and measuring temporary stretch cavity.
Best value scoring: The product sample exhibiting the greatest average volume will receive 125 points. Other product sample results will receive a percentage of the maximum number of points equal to the percentage of their average greatest volume as compared to the product sample exhibiting the largest value for average greatest volume.

OTOH, for the 2009 DHS/ICE ammo contract, they dropped down to 8 inches, kindaa/sorta:

3.16 Terminal Ballistic Performance

3.16.1.1 Penetration

The projectile (representing the largest recovered mass fraction of the original bullet mass) shall be rquired to penetrate calibrated 10% ballistic ordnance gelatin a minimum of 8.0 and a maximum of 18.0 inches. It is desired that the projectile exhibit a penetration depth that is as close as possible to a minimum of 13.0 inches and a maximum of 16 inches.

No mention of TSC testing in that SOW (statement of work)

Winchester's 135g JHP at 1200 fps got the contract.

http://www.winchester.com/library/news/Pages/Winchester-Awarded-Contract.aspx

M&P Shooter
09-14-2010, 11:04
No, not trashed, just changed from at least 12 inches to at least 9 inches.


I'll stick with 12" since some BG's do weigh 300lbs:whistling:
A couple inches short caused the FBI agent in the Miami shooting his life. The bullet stopped short of hitting the heart and BG returned fire killing him.

BrokenArrow
09-14-2010, 11:17
The FBI concluded 8 inches was enough penetration to reach vital organs. They added a 4 inch fudge factor to allow for hitting a forearm/upper arm first, or angled hits, etc.

Heck, w an angled hit on a really fat guy, 20 inches may not be enough!

Whatever way ya go, hit first, hit better, and hit often. :)

M&P Shooter
09-14-2010, 11:20
The FBI concluded 8 inches was enough penetration to reach vital organs. They added a 4 inch fudge factor to allow for hitting a forearm/upper arm first, or angled hits, etc.

Heck, w an angled hit on a really fat guy, 20 inches may not be enough!

Whatever way ya go, hit first, hit better, and hit often. :)
Exactlywhy the extra 4" could be the difference of a fast stop or not

BrokenArrow
09-14-2010, 11:31
If you are really, really good w the verbal judo, a very stern "No! Stop! " should do the trick.

http://www.verbaljudo.com/

The Voice Luke, use the Voice! ;)

M&P Shooter
09-14-2010, 11:39
If you are really, really good w the verbal judo, a very stern "No! Stop! " should do the trick.

http://www.verbaljudo.com/

The Voice Luke, use the Voice! ;)
Guess I proved my point based upon your response, thank you:wavey:

BrokenArrow
09-14-2010, 12:09
Your welcome! :)

bfg1971
09-14-2010, 13:45
Read my sig line.

NonPCnraRN
09-14-2010, 20:10
Fast vs slow are ill defined because a 230 gr bullet at 1000 fps in a 45 ACP is fast. In a 45 Colt Ruger Blackhawk it is slow and light, if you are used to shooting a 270-280 gr WFN at 1200 fps. A 44 spl 250 gr Keith SWC at 900 will turn a deer into venison. So a 255 gr SWC at 900 fps in a 45 ACP or a 200 gr WFNGC in a 40 S&W at 1000 fps should have similar results. Note also there will not be any energy dumping with these rounds. They will however break a deer's shoulder bone and / or leave a quarter sized exit wound with a large blood trail. Except for those who argue that people other than the intended target are at risk with such rounds, I would think that a bullet that will cleanly harvest a deer will also stop a human. Unlike the previously posted statement that most people survive gunshot wounds, most deer don't. It is too bad that the jump was made from round nose ball ammo to hollowpoints, bypassing the WFN design. The truncated cone bullet was a good attempt but still not a WFN. The Double Tap 200 gr 40 cal WFNGC bullet is a good example of this design and if its 80% meplat to caliber ratio was applied to a .452 caliber bullet a .36 inch meplat would result. Such a flat nosed 45 ACP bullet at 230 gr and 850 fps would not have excessive penetration yet would wreak havoc with any tissue it pushed through, be it muscle, organs or bone. A discussion of fast and light vs slow and heavy is incomplete when all bullet designs are not included in the discussion. It would be nice if the jello junkies would include these bullet designs in their testing. But then a simple hardcast bullet would not have the profit margin of the high tech hollowpoints. In the meantime dead deer will have to suffice as evidence of their effectiveness.