Does the test in These videos mean that the .40 165 GDs suck? [Archive] - Glock Talk

PDA

View Full Version : Does the test in These videos mean that the .40 165 GDs suck?


Ramses II
08-25-2010, 18:30
I just bought 40 rounds of these!:steamed: Two boxes of Speer Gold Dot 165 gr. .40s.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JF7U9mBQQWk&feature=search
It isn't the most scientific test, but if you look at the other tests he performs, the other HPs don't penetrate this much. I also saw this test, which seems to confirm that these over-penetrate. 16" after heavy clothing, the entire length of one gelatin block. That's a bit deep isn't it. I noticed that the ATK test personnel did NOT say that this ammo met FBI specs as they did with the other ammo that they tested

Go to the pistol ammunition video, about 8:38 in:
http://le.atk.com/general/irl/videos.aspx

KAK
08-25-2010, 19:00
It damn near made the first jug explode. That could be homeboy's chest cavity. Penetration is good. Wounds are 3 dimensional. It is fact that more tissue damage will occur the further the bullet penetrates. You want the bullet to exit, then it does 100% of what it can do.

BWT
08-25-2010, 19:54
Its a great round with a proven track record. You did good.

Ramses II
08-25-2010, 21:03
It damn near made the first jug explode. That could be homeboy's chest cavity. Penetration is good. Wounds are 3 dimensional. It is fact that more tissue damage will occur the further the bullet penetrates. You want the bullet to exit, then it does 100% of what it can do.

Good point. I did notice that it had considerably greater effect on the first jug than any of the other rounnds this guy tested.

cadillacguns
08-26-2010, 03:24
I am a 180 fan, but after buying and trying Win PDX-1, FED HST, etc etc, I keep going back to the ol reliable 180 gr GD's in my Fotay's!

Bullet Man
08-26-2010, 07:15
The 53949 was made for the FBI, it's slower than the standard 40 165 by 100 fps. The 53970 is what all of the agencies that I sell to use not the 53949. Again this round was designed around the FBI'S specs. I believe that the reduced fps and early pluging of the HP and then the clothing being peeled off as the bullet went through the jug had something to do with the expansion. Another note, the the person testing should always purchase the ammunition for the tests right off of a dealers shelf to insure the highest quality and integrity possible.... AGAIN DO YOUR OWN TESTING!!!!!!

BleedNOrange
08-26-2010, 11:46
Awesome round. Our Dept just switched from Ranger T 165gr to these.

Ramses II
08-26-2010, 17:43
Awesome round. Our Dept just switched from Ranger T 165gr to these.

:cool:

DRT
08-26-2010, 19:27
Awesome round. Our Dept just switched from Ranger T 165gr to these.


That's a step backwards.

DRT
08-26-2010, 19:29
The 53949 was made for the FBI, it's slower than the standard 40 165 by 100 fps. The 53970 is what all of the agencies that I sell to use not the 53949. Again this round was designed around the FBI'S specs. I believe that the reduced fps and early pluging of the HP and then the clothing being peeled off as the bullet went through the jug had something to do with the expansion. Another note, the the person testing should always purchase the ammunition for the tests right off of a dealers shelf to insure the highest quality and integrity possible.... AGAIN DO YOUR OWN TESTING!!!!!!


Sorry Tom, the rounds he tested were the 1150fps version (53970) straight out of a 50round LE box. Bottom line is that these rounds don't open as well as others when fired through clothing.

DRT
08-26-2010, 19:30
I just bought 40 rounds of these!:steamed: Two boxes of Speer Gold Dot 165 gr. .40s.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JF7U9mBQQWk&feature=search
It isn't the most scientific test, but if you look at the other tests he performs, the other HPs don't penetrate this much. I also saw this test, which seems to confirm that these over-penetrate. 16" after heavy clothing, the entire length of one gelatin block. That's a bit deep isn't it. I noticed that the ATK test personnel did NOT say that this ammo met FBI specs as they did with the other ammo that they tested

Go to the pistol ammunition video, about 8:38 in:
http://le.atk.com/general/irl/videos.aspx

It's not the worst ammo in the world however there are definitely better choices if robust expansion after clothing is important to you. Look at pictures about 2/3 way down on page 2 of the following:

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1229261&page=2


.

BurkGlocker
08-26-2010, 22:20
The lack of expansion is one reason that I try to stay far away from Gold Dots. If I am looking for something that doesnt expand well but penetrates deeply, its either Gold Dots or XTPs.

Burk

Berto
08-26-2010, 22:54
That hardly qualifies as a bad performance.

MinervaDoe
08-26-2010, 23:38
The video is very well made. The author is very well spoken and knowledgable and I respect his opinion.
Still:

500 foot pounds of energy (A 230 grain .45 ACP going 850 fps has 369 foot pounds of energy).
The retained mass of the round looks good.
If you factor in law enforcement's prospective use of the round through soft cover, windshields, or car doors, the over penetration and retained mass seem to be a plus.

The denim, was mentioned as part of the test, but when you think of why denim makes sense to use in a test like this, the round actually did quite well. When I think of testing through denim, I think of using it to see if clogging the hollow point will prevent expansion. The hollow point did open, it just happens to be a round which does not open up to add another 70% to it's diameter.

cowboy1964
08-27-2010, 00:17
For some reason .40 Gold Dots don't seem to work as well as 9mm and .45 from the tests I've seen. Not that they fail but they just don't seem to expand and penetrate as consistently. I would still use them though.

Bullet Man
08-27-2010, 07:18
Sorry, I just watched it again, the person states 53949, not 53970...Way to go Tenn. Smart move.. We have had 10 Law Enforcement shootings here in Florida in the last 3 months. All were FDRT and all used the Speer 40 caliber Gold Dot. After much testing the FHP changed from Winchester to Speer Gold Dot this summer.

Again do your own testing....

H&K 4 LIFE
08-27-2010, 09:47
We have had 10 Law Enforcement shootings here in Florida in the last 3 months. All were FDRT and all used the Speer 40 caliber Gold Dot...

So in other words what you are saying is despite not typically expanding in gel and water jugs into pretty little flowers the GD's worked in the real world, where it actually matters? ;)

DRT
08-27-2010, 20:24
Sorry, I just watched it again, the person states 53949, not 53970...Way to go Tenn. Smart move.. We have had 10 Law Enforcement shootings here in Florida in the last 3 months. All were FDRT and all used the Speer 40 caliber Gold Dot. After much testing the FHP changed from Winchester to Speer Gold Dot this summer.

Again do your own testing....

I was refering to TWSG26's (tnoutdoors9) video listed 1st above.

After much testing the Feds dropped the 165gr GD in favor of Winchesters so what's that prove. FHP also went with .45 GAP so I don't put a lot of weight on their choices. On the other hand there's probably not too much heavy clothing to worry about in Florida. Probably isn't much GAP ammo around other than GD either.

If a .58 caliber hole is good, then a .75 caliber hole is that much better given that both penetrate at least 12" which they do.

If they used HST then I guess they would have been MFDRT. Lots of other anecdotal stories .....like Porland's HST impressive OIS records.

wruckis
08-27-2010, 20:26
Gold Dot suck? I dont think so. I think it's a really good bullet, but i believe HST and Ranger "t" expand much better.

Ramses II
08-28-2010, 17:12
Sorry, I just watched it again, the person states 53949, not 53970...Way to go Tenn. Smart move.. We have had 10 Law Enforcement shootings here in Florida in the last 3 months. All were FDRT and all used the Speer 40 caliber Gold Dot. After much testing the FHP changed from Winchester to Speer Gold Dot this summer.

Again do your own testing....

What's FDRT?

fredj338
08-28-2010, 17:54
Good point. I did notice that it had considerably greater effect on the first jug than any of the other rounnds this guy tested.
THat is how most JHP work. They cause a large temp cavity in the first 5"-8", then continue to penetrate. It's why the first jug is gone & the rest penetrated. FWIW, penetration in water is about twice what you find in balistic gel. It's not really wetpack, as it's not packed tightly, it's closer to water. Ture wetpack gives about 3/4 the penetration of balgel. So it's right in there w/ what is deemed acceptable, around 11"-14" of balgel penetration. His flaw in the testing is he trys to relate squishy wetpack testing to balgel, just isn't the same.

James Dean
08-28-2010, 20:14
I am a 180 fan, but after buying and trying Win PDX-1, FED HST, etc etc, I keep going back to the ol reliable 180 gr GD's in my Fotay's!
Me too

Ramses II
08-28-2010, 23:45
THat is how most JHP work. They cause a large temp cavity in the first 5"-8", then continue to penetrate. It's why the first jug is gone & the rest penetrated. FWIW, penetration in water is about twice what you find in balistic gel. It's not really wetpack, as it's not packed tightly, it's closer to water. Ture wetpack gives about 3/4 the penetration of balgel. So it's right in there w/ what is deemed acceptable, around 11"-14" of balgel penetration. His flaw in the testing is he trys to relate squishy wetpack testing to balgel, just isn't the same.

Thanks for the input and info. My point wasn't that the GD 165 had a greater effect on the first jug as compared to the other jugs, but rather that it a had a greater effect on the first jug than other HPs he tested had on the first jug. Many of the other rounds he tested just had a minimal jump on the first jug (denim tests). I do understand that this effect is not conclussive, but it was notable.

fredj338
08-29-2010, 01:56
Thanks for the input and info. My point wasn't that the GD 165 had a greater effect on the first jug as compared to the other jugs, but rather that it a had a greater effect on the first jug than other HPs he tested had on the first jug. Many of the other rounds he tested just had a minimal jump on the first jug (denim tests). I do understand that this effect is not conclussive, but it was notable.
Many things cause that first jug to go like that, mostly high impact vel & a bullet that gives up it's expansion in the first 6"-8".

voyager4520
08-29-2010, 05:21
It did pretty darn good in my opinion. 16 inches penetration through gelatin with heavy clothing. The last 4 inches the round *may* have enough energy to bruise someone. I don't see what's to be disappointed about.

Ramses II
08-29-2010, 10:13
BTW,
I shot a box of 20 yesterday. No malfunctuions. Out of my Glock 22 Gen 4, I got a velocity average of 1136 FPS. There was very little velocity deviation. My Chrony was 5 yds/15 ft. from the muzzle.

CanyonMan
08-29-2010, 11:38
I just bought 40 rounds of these!:steamed: Two boxes of Speer Gold Dot 165 gr. .40s.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JF7U9mBQQWk&feature=search
It isn't the most scientific test, but if you look at the other tests he performs, the other HPs don't penetrate this much. I also saw this test, which seems to confirm that these over-penetrate. 16" after heavy clothing, the entire length of one gelatin block. That's a bit deep isn't it. [B] I noticed that the ATK test personnel did NOT say that this ammo met FBI specs as they did with the other ammo that they tested

Go to the pistol ammunition video, about 8:38 in:
http://le.atk.com/general/irl/videos.aspx



No. to answer your question: They do not stink: The fella on the vid is not a huge fan of penetration when it gets to these depths he always says "thats not good, wow way to much", etc.

This round went 22" in HIS test anyway, and still opened some. I would say. Very sweet.

I won't carry a round in any caliber that does not get 14" to 18" penetration. Although I would rather have the 180gr in .40 cal. (and when I do carry mine 'rarely' it is 180gr PDX1). The 165gr in the vid got 22" penetratin in your video. What is not to like? Factor in heavy clothes, a very big and heavy BG, lots of muscle fat grissle bone solid and hollow organs fluids, and then got to get to the vitals, you got a bullet here that will stand a better chance to penetrate.

If it don't get where it needs to go and possibly through a barrier and different types of media "including" humans as in in arms so forth, then why carry it ?

Those 165's. Yep. Id take them on the penetration alone, and no worries, but I do prefer heavy for caliber in everthing, thus the 180gr is my choice in 40cal.

Don't get all caught up in the rapid expasion hype. It is just that. Hype.
These 165's you ask about look fine to me, since these are what your asking specifically about !

"Suggestion:" Stick with something, like these, that will get a minimum of 14" penetration, more would be better. ;)


Good shooting.




CanyonMan

unit1069
08-29-2010, 12:12
trout's video shows the test round penetrated a good deal and expanded very uniformly.

What's wrong? I certainly don't know.

DRT
08-29-2010, 13:33
Yeah time to get rid of those gold dots since they still slightly expand after clothing and penetrate only 16-22"....get some ball ammo so you can poke even smaller holes while going through an extra person or two. I think ATK makes a TMJ practice round that won't expand at all and really penetrate.

Glockbuster
08-29-2010, 21:37
I certainly would not fume over those GD 165's. The truth is there is too much good ammo available for .40 that people rave over one or the other--they're all good and wont change the outcome much. I could care less whether I was given Golden Sabers, Gold dots, Hydrashocks, HSt's Rangers or whatever they're all good.

cowboy1964
08-29-2010, 23:45
You want the bullet to exit, then it does 100% of what it can do.

Actually you don't. Exit means wasted energy. Ideally the bullet should stop just under the skin on the back side.

IndyGunFreak
08-30-2010, 03:09
You want the bullet to exit, then it does 100% of what it can do.

Uh... no.

Amadou Diallo stood for 19 hits w/ FMJ that virtually all went "through and through". It also puts bystanders at risk, and in the case of Diallo, due to rounds bouncing off walls, etc.. it likely cause the Officers to believe they were being fired upon.


As for the OP, the Gold Dot is a well proven round in almost all weights and calibers. Carry with confidence. You have to do your job before a round will do its job... PLACEMENT IS KEY! If you think a round is going to drop someone w/o proper placement, you're fooling yourself. There are numerous police shootings to support this. You can carry a generic JHP and if you put it in their noodle, there's a high probability it's going to do it's job, but even then.. no matter what the round, Murphy can always visit.

IGF

Bullet Man
08-30-2010, 08:01
F@#$%&* dead right their!!!

BleedNOrange
08-30-2010, 10:40
That's a step backwards.
Well since you want to judge ammo based on one guys videos, look at the test of the 165 ranger that tnoutdoors did and then tell me the GD is a step backwards. We are very happy with the switch but hey we probably arent as smart as you. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2dJPeVo_7s

Glockbuster
08-30-2010, 11:55
I think you made a very good switch. Congratulations.

DRT
08-30-2010, 18:50
F@#$%&* dead right their!!!

Pist...Tommy....it's "there", not "their".

DRT
08-30-2010, 18:55
Well since you want to judge ammo based on one guys videos, look at the test of the 165 ranger that tnoutdoors did and then tell me the GD is a step backwards. We are very happy with the switch but hey we probably arent as smart as you. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2dJPeVo_7s


If you were observant you'd see on page 1 that I did my own testing. HST is my prime carry ammo, when it's my choice, based upon a number of sources including my own experiences. Glad you're happy with what you're issued. Stay safe (and alert).

Glockbuster
08-30-2010, 21:14
To me the Gold dots have always represented the best combination of penetration, expansion, bullet retention weight, and barrier penetration capability. I like the way HST's expand but I wonder how they perform through harder barriers. For example, an HST would probably be a better performer if a BG was shot in the abdominal cavity, but the Gold Dot might actually go through vital organs in the torso even if bone is hit and be better in one of those hits.

Water jugs, phone books, gelatin tests, cloth etc. don't tell the whole story. The Gold Dots are a proven stopper.

Eagle22
09-02-2010, 14:14
Federal HST 180gr & Speed GD 180gr is what use.

that first jug exploding says quite a bit.

Damn good ammo