Is the shotgun really KING of HD? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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CTfam
08-27-2010, 17:37
I'm falling out of love with the shotgun... Talk to me here guys. It's pretty well known that buck shot and slugs are the best man stopping rounds available but that's pretty much all the shotgun has to offer. Incredible stopping power at close range. What are the other advantages of the shotgun for HD?

They are low capacity and slow to reload. Large and harder to maneuver than a pistol or carbine. Takes two hands to operate and are more expensive to train with. Most people that I know shoot more pistol/rifle at the range yet have their trusty pump loaded up for night duty. I think this is a mistake. I am guilty of this as well... That's why I am switching my HD primary to the same gun I carry and shoot every week. The Glock 17 with a TLR-1 attached. If there is a real SHTF event or home invasion I will go for the AK. Smaller, lighter, faster follow up shots, more range, can defeat armor, etc. Just my opinion.

I am not trying to trash the shotgun here. Just thinking out loud... Am I making a mistake putting the pump in the safe?

Please discuss.

In what situation would a shotgun be better than a pistol or rifle?

GlockPride
08-27-2010, 18:15
Shotgun still definitely has it's place. However, a carbine such as an AR would not be out of place.
-lighter weight
-16" shortest 'standard' legal vs shotgun at 18"
-30 rds vs 4-7 rds
-faster reloads
-quicker red dots are usually easier to install on AR

dc2integra
08-27-2010, 18:17
yes you are becouse your AK will overpenetrate and you might shoot tru a wall and kill someone innocent like a loved one.The shotgun has the stopping power and it doesnt overpenetrate like the 7x62 out of your AK will

squiddie545
08-27-2010, 18:33
dude, you need to watch the finale of LA Confidential again... lot of shotgun work there. I know it is a movie. There is a certain finality to 00 buck hitting center of mass. With a lot of practice, I have seen dudes make an 870 shoot like an automatic.

unit1069
08-27-2010, 18:37
dude, you need to watch the finale of LA Confidential again...

One of the finest crime dramas ever filmed!

MrMurphy
08-27-2010, 18:49
12ga will overpenetrate just like anything else. Even birdshot.


Is it the king? No. Shotguns are a hunting weapon first and foremost (back in the day, they were "fowling pieces" first). They were pressed into defensive use over the centuries because they were handy, and loaded with bigger shot, do the job.

A shotgun is a fairly inexpensive, hard hitting weapon that under crappy circumstances most people can still hit with and make an effective hit. In the dark without white lights (back in the day) it gave a much higher hit probability.

For a 1-badguy home invasion or even 2-badguy, a shotgun can do very good work. If you're in a serious firefight with multiple bad guys, the lower capacity/speed of reloading will come into play. In those situations, a rifle is a much better option and enough lead will be exchanging places that overpenetration is the least of your worries.

I prefer a rifle with a good load myself. But i would never turn down a shotgun if it was at hand instead of the rifle. Just be aware of both the capabilities and weaknesses of the weapon and load, and use it appropriately.

Aceman
08-27-2010, 19:36
.The shotgun has the stopping power and it doesnt overpenetrate like the 7x62 out of your AK will

This is a personal issue to me for no real reason - but in the interest of helping people make good decisions:

The above statement is true, yet at the same time completely retarded (that's right, retarded. call the PC police)

Overpenetration is over penetration. You can hurt other people on the other side of the wall (or walls)

ANY caliber that is sufficiently reliable to STOP BG's will over penetrate.

The above poster makes it sound like a SG is safe and an AK is not. Here is the correct way to look at it: The are both extremely effing dangerous period. In doors, outdoors, wherever. You should not feel comfortable shooting either of them in your living room.

If it's so EXTRA safe compared to an AK, why don't you stand in the next room and let me shoot 00 buck at the wall?

Now here comes the tough guy cry: "Your being a jerk and calling me names! I didn't say that!!!!"

Yes you did - you absolutely wrote that so it sound like an SG was safe and an AK way over penetrated. If you did it on purpose, shame on you! That's BAD and dangerous advice. If you didn't, you are ignorant and should think before you type.

And if his hurts your feelings, kiss my ass. Read the above portion until you get it.

CTfam
08-27-2010, 19:40
12ga will overpenetrate just like anything else. Even birdshot.


Is it the king? No. Shotguns are a hunting weapon first and foremost (back in the day, they were "fowling pieces" first). They were pressed into defensive use over the centuries because they were handy, and loaded with bigger shot, do the job.

A shotgun is a fairly inexpensive, hard hitting weapon that under crappy circumstances most people can still hit with and make an effective hit. In the dark without white lights (back in the day) it gave a much higher hit probability.

For a 1-badguy home invasion or even 2-badguy, a shotgun can do very good work. If you're in a serious firefight with multiple bad guys, the lower capacity/speed of reloading will come into play. In those situations, a rifle is a much better option and enough lead will be exchanging places that overpenetration is the least of your worries.

I prefer a rifle with a good load myself. But i would never turn down a shotgun if it was at hand instead of the rifle. Just be aware of both the capabilities and weaknesses of the weapon and load, and use it appropriately.

:goodpost: I agree 100%. First the issue of overpenetration... Anything that will put a hole in a person will put a hole in drywall/studs so understand that you are risking other peoples safety when you start spraying any firearm at someone. Only shoot if you have to and try to stay on target.

In regards to taking on one or two bad guys... I feel much more confident in my ability with a full size semi auto pistol than with a shotgun. Others may disagree but that's what I have most trigger time on. If I do run my pistol dry or find myself in a "serious firefight with multiple bad guys" then the rifle is KING.

CTfam
08-27-2010, 19:48
Overpenetration is over penetration. You can hurt other people on the other side of the wall (or walls)

ANY caliber that is sufficiently reliable to STOP BG's will over penetrate.


Anyone seriously concerned about overpenetration should pick up a youth sized baseball bat and a bright flashlight. That will keep your neighbors safe.

Some overpenetration is good... Like through the ribs, heart and lungs of your attacker. :supergrin:

dc2integra
08-27-2010, 19:55
Edited for irrelevancy.

CTfam
08-27-2010, 20:01
Please settle this in PMs guys. Nobody gives a crap..... Back on topic.

dc2integra
08-27-2010, 20:08
Sorry for getting off topic. yea I agree to a certain extent I also feel more comfortable with my Glock 23 with TRL 1 over my shotgun.

vafish
08-27-2010, 20:19
Weight:

AK47 9.5 lbs
M4 Carbine 6 lbs
Mossberg 500 6 1/2 lbs (5 1/2 lbs pistol grip)

Length:

AK47 34" full stock
M4 33" Stock extend 14" barrel.
500 39" (28" with pistol grip)

18.5" Mossberg 500 with full stock is only 1/2 lb heavier then a M4 Carbine and lighter then an AK47. It is also 5"-6" longer with a full stock.

I really don't think the differences between the M4 and the Mossberg 500 are that huge, especially if you go with a 16" barreled M4.

Shotguns advantages.

1. Hits harder.
2. Greater variety of ammunition choices from non-lethal to buckshot and slugs.
3. Greater visual deterrence. That 3/4" hole looks like a train tunnel when someone points one at you.
4. Cheaper, about 1/4 the cost of a M4 carbine.
5. More reliable (as long as you don't short stroke it).
6. More acceptable to juries, if for some reason your shoot goes to court.

As for it's limited capacity. 6 shots of OO buckshot should solve any home invasion problem. Lets face it criminals are not like a squad of Marines. Sure there's a slight chance a gang of 4 or 5 criminals might try to break into your house while you are home, but after you put the first 2 down the others aren't going to hang around and fight it out with you, they'll be running as fast as they can. Even if the Marines are assaulting your house if you shoot the first couple of them coming through the door they aren't going to keep pouring into your kill zone, they are going to back up and use something with explosives in it to destroy you.

Is the shotgun king of home defense?

I think any reasonably powerful firearm that you shoot well will be the king of home defense if you have it ready when you need it.

dc2integra
08-27-2010, 20:23
Great wite up ^^

Glockdude1
08-27-2010, 20:28
Shotgun still definitely has it's place. However, a carbine such as an AR would not be out of place.
-lighter weight
-16" shortest 'standard' legal vs shotgun at 18"
-30 rds vs 4-7 rds
-faster reloads
-quicker red dots are usually easier to install on AR

http://glocktalk.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=258&pictureid=1162
20rd 12Ga drum
http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k120/Topmaul/randompics001.jpg

:cool:

gnepig
08-27-2010, 23:01
http://glocktalk.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=258&pictureid=1162
20rd 12Ga drum

:cool:


HOLY COW MAN! How did you get that toaster the coffee maker and the blender on your gun?! You are inarguably The Man! :supergrin:

aippi
08-28-2010, 01:20
The shotgun has more initial fire power then an asault rifle or SMG. It is a close quarters weapon. HD is close quarters. There is no close quarters weapon with more fire power then a shotgun so yes it is King and even the King Kong of close quarters weapons.

A demonstration at the Metro Dade Police range proved this to me years ago. Two shooters each shooting through a metal frame which simluated a car window, with a backing a few feet behind to show hits.

Shooter #1 with a 20" 870 with 3 round extension and 8 12ga 2 3/4" 00 magnum 00 buckshot which has 12 pellets each. So 96 .32 caliber pellets.

Shooter #2 with MP-5 full auto SMG and 30 round mag.

Frames turned and both started shooting, the MP-5 guys was great on the trigger putting out three round burst. The guy on the shotgun was fantastic. The MP-5 finished a few milisconds before the 12ga but it was so close.

The point of the Demo was that the 12ga put 96 .32 caliber pellets through his frame in almost the same time the MP-5 SMG put 30 9mm through his. The 12ga provided three times the firepower.

Remember I said Initial fire power. Yes the MP-5 could be reloaded faster but the demo was to show that that if the threat is over reloading is not an issue.

Me, I opt for the most fire power I can bring to shoulder and that is a 12ga shotgun.

mixflip
08-28-2010, 02:02
Most shotgun engagements happen late at night for the average Joe. I will probably be crusty eyed and fighting off the grogginess as I investigate the crash at my back sliding door?

Me personally, I like the ability to be able to shoot a moving target much easier with my 12 gauge than I can with my handgun or rifle. Nine "32 caliber projectiles" all flying at one pull of the trigger is just what I need under those conditions.

Every tool has its pros & cons though.

Robalero
08-28-2010, 05:39
There will always be different opinions, as for me, and older guy, I have an 1100 tactical ready to go where I can easily access it, my AR is in the Safe, and my G21 is in the nightstand right next to where I sleep.

I say yes, a 12 gauge with buckshot still has a place in a home defense scenario. Is it king? Well, you see the responses, to each his own!

rjm
08-28-2010, 06:07
Never understood using a rifle for home defense, as in "inside the home." The pistol makes the most practical sense for me, its what I carry and what I shoot the most with. Using one doesn't require two hands and its quick on target. I can also keep it on the nightstand within arms reach. The shotgun is the second choice, but the rifle doesn't even make it into consideration.

motorcyclist
08-28-2010, 06:56
It's been a long time but I remember reading that FBI statistics found selfdefence and home defence shootings by civilians (non police) involved no more then 3 shots fired. Makes sence as this is criminal activity looking for a quick, easy hit. They're not looking to lay siege to your home for a TV. I have a 18" barrel Rem 870 loaded with Federal LE "OO" (flite control wad, look into it if you haven't heard about it) quick to hand. And remember, nothing says "get the f@*k out of my house!" like a 12ga.

Bill Lumberg
08-28-2010, 07:10
It's a shotgun. It's not "king" of anything. In the hands of a properly trained individual, it's one of a number of guns that can be effective for home use.

byf43
08-28-2010, 09:27
For HD, I'll take an 870 over just about anything else, IF I'm able to set up a 'nest' and wait for an intruder.
For me, that 'nest' is at the top of the stairs, where any intruder will have to access, to get to my family.
The stairwell will become a killing field for anyone that enters it.

IF I'm required to move through my house, one of my several .45 acp pistols will be in my hands.
Compact. Ability to control (better) while negotiating a corner.

CTfam
08-28-2010, 09:33
http://glocktalk.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=258&pictureid=1162
20rd 12Ga drum
http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k120/Topmaul/randompics001.jpg

:cool:

Ahh yes I was waiting for a Saiga-12 to pop up in this thread. That is one hell of a weapon. It solves a lot of the issues I have with the pump shotgun but I sold mine off a while back.

CTfam
08-28-2010, 09:38
The pistol makes the most practical sense for me, its what I carry and what I shoot the most with. Using one doesn't require two hands and its quick on target.

Agreed. The shotgun is an amazing CQC weapon but I will argue that the pistol is better. Not in regards to ballistics but in every other way it is the better choice. If a pistol wont solve your problem then you need a rifle. (and a prayer)

At the end of the day I say use what you train with the most. For me, it's

1. Pistol

2. Rifle

Way down the list is shotgun.

MrMurphy
08-28-2010, 10:15
Having spent every day for three years clearing buildings with a rifle....a rifle in trained hands is about as long as a pistol (M4 with stock collapsed vs pistol in standard 2 hand hold). If you're clearing a house alone, you either have no other choice or you have a death wish. I AM trained to do so, and my minimum to clear a house with is a 2-man team, 4 or 8 being preferable. You just can't cover the angles alone. A shotgun, especially short-stocked, is not really any bigger than most rifles. The maneuverability thing is less an issue than you think.

But as others have said, shotguns are "hunker down" guns unless you're in a team. As to a rifle, vs a shotgun...... my first-at-hand defense weapon is a pistol, because it's quick. My next at hand (in my case) is a rifle. Because pistols of any caliber are still fairly weak, and rifles stop fights. I've used a shotgun for the same role, and I would again, but in my case, I've been shooting the AR platform continuously for over 15 years and carried one every day from 2005-2009, so stick with what you're familiar with.

If I'd been a skeet shooter or duck hunter for 30 years, I'd be keeping an 870 there instead.

Robalero
08-28-2010, 11:18
Murphy,
Very well put! I am a skeet shooter, and dove and quail hunter, so for me, yes a shotgun makes more sense.

aippi
08-28-2010, 11:39
If you're going to a gun fight, take a shotgun. If you can't take a shotgun, don't go.

The purpose of a hand gun is to have something in your hand while you make your way to your shotgun.

If most European countries the shotgun is banned for use by Law Enforcement. Some allow their Counter Terorrist teams to use them but not other units.

It is still prohibited to used in combat by the Geneva Converntion and can only be used to guard prisoners. And yes, I know it was used in the WW II in the pacific but Japan did not sign the convention, nor did North Vietnam so it saw use in Vietnam. It is still banned by the Genneva convention.

This is the most powerfull shoulder weapon with the most initial fire power for a close quaters situation which is what HD is. Can't see using anything else.

OldArcher
08-28-2010, 11:53
Hi CTfam,

I'm relegated to using a suppressed .45acp, a 3rd Gen G21 or G30. What I used to have for HD, was 12ga M4 Super 90 by Benelli, then when recoil got too great to handle, Remington 12ga Desert Recon II w/Knoxx Stocks, then AR15 w/6.8SPC and all the bells and whistles, and now, as stated, G21 or G30...

When young and fit, go for the gusto, so only a sponge, squeegee, or wiping cloth are needed for clean-up. Now, the wear of age and unanticipated consequences demand what I can most efficiently use... In my case, experience, stealth, treachery, and guile... I've been a victim. Didn't like it. Won't be one again... Ever...

So, WHEN someone breaks in, it won't be an ambulance or paddy wagon they'll be sending... It'll be a hearse or two... Can't remember who did a furniture testing thread, but it sure got me to thinking... I know every angle, bit of cover or concealment in my home. What PDX1 won't go through, 230gr hardball will. I can still one hand my AR, but that's at my fall-back position, so I won't, couldn't even if I wanted to, carry it... 6.8SPC is great ammo, especially with Hornady ballistic tips... If 25rds can't do the trick, if it gets that far, I'm a dead man anyway...

Shotgun? Yeah, but I'll save that for legitimate guests to use...

OA, out...

17119jfkioe
08-28-2010, 11:55
no comment on the shotgun, But I have a g17 in the nightstand. I live in a close quarter apt. so its more practical than a SG. Soon I will have the tlr-1 so I can operate the firearm with one hand. It really just depends on the layout of your house IMHO. If is semi close quarters, go with the glock. If you have some room, go with the shotty

make sure you have some gold dots in that g17!

DPris
08-28-2010, 12:33
It's whichever works best in your hands.
During a career that involved clearing houses, office buildings, warehouses, and various other indoor enclosures, I used at various times an 870, an AR, and six different handguns over the years.

The last half, with the occasional exception of a larger building with more open space, I left the long guns in the car.

Retired & able to use anything I want now, I stick with the handgun for middle-of-the-night-bumps.
I found the long guns heavy, cumbersome, and awkward to use in maneuvering inside the close confines of an average house.

Overpenetration & limited mag capacity aside, the handgun is more responsive and infinitely easier to work around corners, use one-handed when the other's needed to open doors or move things out of the way, and so on.
Very simply, it adapts to me in working a house, I don't have to adapt to it.
I never found a 16-inch AR or an 18-inch 870 that worked angles, corners, doors, and other tight indoor spaces anywhere near as handily as the handgun.

If you prefer a shotgun for whatever reason, fine.
The handgun makes a very viable clearing tool, too. :)
My shotguns are reserved for outdoor uses.

Denis

David Armstrong
08-28-2010, 12:54
What are the other advantages of the shotgun for HD?
It's not just HD, and to me that is the greatest advantage of the shotgun, versatility.
They are low capacity and slow to reload.
How much capacity do you need for HD? And how fast do you think you need to reload? IMO, it isn't that slow to reload, either, at least as relates to continuity of fire.
Large and harder to maneuver than a pistol or carbine.
Pistol yes, but not necessarily carbine. That can be addressed (if important) through selection.
Takes two hands to operate and are more expensive to train with.
For an HD scenario, you can use the shotgun with one-hand without too much trouble. For training, I can get 50 rounds of 12 gauge for about $12 if I shop around. That is comparable to what I'd pay for .40 or .45 ammo.
In what situation would a shotgun be better than a pistol or rifle?
Most typical home defense situations.

Now, having defended my beloved shotgun, I agree with you. If you are more comfortable using what you spend more time training with, then by all means put the big thumper in the closet. IMO comfort and training will usually beat effectiveness every day.

BTW, the Brits did an interesting study back a while comparing weapons. The common fighting firearm that was fastest to score a first-round hit on the BG within 25 yards? MP5...nope. Uzi...nope. AR15...nope. FN/FAL...nope. Hi-Power...nope. 1911...nope. Asssorted others...nope. 12 gauge shotgun with buckshot...THE WINNER!

hackinpeat
08-28-2010, 13:15
Well, All I can say Is I still want to add a shotgun to my collection, and that saiga-12 looks like the perfect weapon.

Where do you get the toaster attachment? Mall ninja?... sure maybe. but I think it's friggin awesome, and I could make grilled cheese and a smoothie on it.

CTfam
08-28-2010, 13:24
Well David you've done a good job defending the "big thumper". :) The shotgun hits hard and is perfect for the hunker down situations. Realistically the 5-9 rounds in a shotgun should be more than enough to defend the castle so the reloading issue isn't a huge one. It's just that I love being able to answer the door with my pistol in hand. Also, it's a big advantage having a free hand to open doors, call 911, push an attacker off you, etc. What if you find yourself in VERY close quarters with a home invader. For example, you hear a noise.... Go to check it out and BAM there is a BG right there in the room. What would be the fastest to get shots off? What is the better weapon for a physical fight? The pistol shines here once again.

Just my thoughts.

aippi
08-28-2010, 13:55
Best weapon for a physical fight? Well, hard to butt stroke with a pistol and an 18" steel barrel can reach out longer to pop someone in the head then a 4" barrel can. Am I missing something?

Restless28
08-28-2010, 13:57
I hope that I never have to prove it, but, the shotgun for HD makes more sense than a rifle, unless you live in Afghanistan.

If someone was attempting to break in my home at night, and I heard it. I would much rather dial 911, gather the family in one room, and hunker down with a 12 gauge.

I live in a one-story ranch style home. There are no turns to worry about.

This thread has me looking at shotguns in another tab right now. I need to get off my duff, and get busy buying one. :wavey:

Denied
08-28-2010, 14:17
Yes the shotgun is king of home defense weapons. During my law enforcement career I cleared home and business alarms nearly every shift. We were taught to come out of the car with the shotgun in hand. Over penetration is a major problem regardless of weapon choice. Only by being aware of what is behind your target can you be sure of not hitting a bystander.

Z71bill
08-28-2010, 14:46
It is not an accident that the 870 is the first gun I see when I open my safe -

I buy 500-1,000 rounds of 12 gauge every year when Walmart has their end of season sale and they mark all the 12 gauge 100 round VPs down to $14.97.

7 1/2 & 8 bird shot may not be a good choice for HD but it sure gives me some low cost / fun as hell range time.

Glockdude1
08-28-2010, 15:13
It is not an accident that the 870 is the first gun I see when I open my safe -

I buy 500-1,000 rounds of 12 gauge every year when Walmart has their end of season sale and they mark all the 12 gauge 100 round VPs down to $14.97.

7 1/2 & 8 bird shot may not be a good choice for HD but it sure gives me some low cost / fun as hell range time.

:thumbsup:

shootingbuff
08-28-2010, 15:41
You are spot on. To answer your question it is intimidating. It also throws out X number of projectiles that increases the chance of hitting something vital. Some will say the combined hits produce more trauma than the same number of hits singularly.

AFA the reloading goes - if you have to reload your SG on the clock it can be done fairly quickly with practice and you would be up a creek real bad anyway. You should always have a pistol is my thoughts to transition to, but again if you have to you are in deep stuff.

So if you run a carbine there will be times one may need to transition. If one has to reload a SG or a carbine you are FUBAR or at the very least possibly have injured a lot of folks that were not the BGs.

With that said the pistol and even carbine does not have the imtimadation factor of a SG.

Lastly there are trade offs to each the pistol, carbine and SG. Pick what you handle the best and have the warm and fuzzyovert and never think imtimadation is goping to get you out of trouble.

sb


I'm falling out of love with the shotgun... Talk to me here guys. It's pretty well known that buck shot and slugs are the best man stopping rounds available but that's pretty much all the shotgun has to offer. Incredible stopping power at close range. What are the other advantages of the shotgun for HD?

They are low capacity and slow to reload. Large and harder to maneuver than a pistol or carbine. Takes two hands to operate and are more expensive to train with. Most people that I know shoot more pistol/rifle at the range yet have their trusty pump loaded up for night duty. I think this is a mistake. I am guilty of this as well... That's why I am switching my HD primary to the same gun I carry and shoot every week. The Glock 17 with a TLR-1 attached. If there is a real SHTF event or home invasion I will go for the AK. Smaller, lighter, faster follow up shots, more range, can defeat armor, etc. Just my opinion.

I am not trying to trash the shotgun here. Just thinking out loud... Am I making a mistake putting the pump in the safe?

Please discuss.

In what situation would a shotgun be better than a pistol or rifle?

DPris
08-28-2010, 15:57
I'll try this again, getting very tired of GT bouncing me out & de-logging me. :)

I offer the following from my perspective only, based on many years of uniformed work with a 20-inch M-16, a 16-inch AR-15 carbine, a 20-inch Winchester 1200, an 18-inch Remington 870, and several handguns, as previously mentioned.
I don't offer it dogmatically in Thou Shalt form. Just a perspective to consider.

NONE of the above long guns was anywhere near as handy to maneuver across the broad spectrum of indoor spaces & angles as the handguns were.
No question ALL of the long guns were more effective on target than any handgun I carried.
But- I could not work them through tight spaces and angles anywhere near as easily as the handguns.
I could not work any of them as well one-handed as the handguns.
ALL were long & bulky. The 16-inch carbine was superior only to the 20-inch M-16 for indoors use, still nowhere close to the dynamic handling capabilities of the handgun.

Regardless of how much more effective the shotgun is on target, if I can't GET it on that target in a hurry, its superiority is irrelevant.
Indoor encounters can be very fast and very close.

I found on numerous occasions that people can be quite rude in not giving sufficient notice when they're going to pop out suddenly from closets, through doorways off narrow hallways, and around angles or curves on stairs.
The shotgun is nowhere near as dynamic in hand in responding to such situations as the handgun. Its size & mass can quite often be detrimental.

There were many times where I had to use the off hand to open a door, move items (furniture, clothing in a closet, boxes, etc.) in clearing a house or building. In such cases, the extra weight and length of the shotgun makes it impossible to bring to bear hurriedly one-handed if something jumps up, around, or through while your off hand's tied up.
That's not even counting the additional difficulty in working a shotgun one-handed if one or the other hand's injured, or while using the off hand as a push-off.

The idea of using the shotgun as an impact weapon has its own hazards. Anytime you engage at contact distance, if you can touch the other side he can also touch you.

Buttstroking is not as effective with a rubber recoil pad as the steel plates used to be in older times & contexts. You may very easily just find you've handed half of your shotgun away & now you've got to grapple over it. If you've done some shotgun retention exercises, that's great. Most people haven't, and even then wrestling over a shotgun in a cramped hall or over furniture is an entirely different ballgame than it is in doing it on a mat in the gym with a redgun.

Bonking somebody on the noggin runs similar risks, I prefer to avoid handing my defensive hardware to somebody whenever possible, and if you've ever worked on handgun retention in a competently taught handgun class, you learned that it's far easier to retain in a scuffle (and use it) than a long gun is.

Now retired & able to use anything I can legally possess, it's the same pistol for night-time bumps as it is for daytime regular carry.
Very simply, in my home (as in most of those I used to visit professionally) I can work the floorplan much better with a handgun. :)

The shotguns & other long guns are retained for outdoor use with longer distances & more open spaces.

Although not quite an Apples/Apples analogy, there was a reason the famed tunnel rats of the Vietnam War took one single handgun down into the darkness with them. Our homes aren't nearly as cramped, but the same general principle still applies.
A more compact gun just maneuvers through a more compact space much better than a bigger one. :)

There's no right or wrong answer to the original question, just pointing out alternatives.

Denis

shootingbuff
08-28-2010, 17:01
Sir,

A well written and detailed report.

I must say though that home-owners do not "normally" have the need to clear their home and if they did they would know the layout which would help.

That stated knowing what they have to traverse should be considered during the planning process. Before the planning process is finalized the homeowner should practice their plan to verify it is worthy and to learn from it. With at least a few of the better slings one can transition to a pistol without the longarm bouncing all over.

I too reach for a short arm if I awake at night, and grab a longarm if expect BGs to enter. At which time i will be waiting while my wife calls 911.

My point is besides agreeing with you, most shouldn't be clearing their home. It sounds cool, but leave that to those that get paid for it.. Am I correct? it is my opinion only.

I would like to thank you for your service.

sb





I'll try this again, getting very tired of GT bouncing me out & de-logging me. :)

I offer the following from my perspective only, based on many years of uniformed work with a 20-inch M-16, a 16-inch AR-15 carbine, a 20-inch Winchester 1200, an 18-inch Remington 870, and several handguns, as previously mentioned.
I don't offer it dogmatically in Thou Shalt form. Just a perspective to consider.

NONE of the above long guns was anywhere near as handy to maneuver across the broad spectrum of indoor spaces & angles as the handguns were.
No question ALL of the long guns were more effective on target than any handgun I carried.
But- I could not work them through tight spaces and angles anywhere near as easily as the handguns.
I could not work any of them as well one-handed as the handguns.
ALL were long & bulky. The 16-inch carbine was superior only to the 20-inch M-16 for indoors use, still nowhere close to the dynamic handling capabilities of the handgun.

Regardless of how much more effective the shotgun is on target, if I can't GET it on that target in a hurry, its superiority is irrelevant.
Indoor encounters can be very fast and very close.

I found on numerous occasions that people can be quite rude in not giving sufficient notice when they're going to pop out suddenly from closets, through doorways off narrow hallways, and around angles or curves on stairs.
The shotgun is nowhere near as dynamic in hand in responding to such situations as the handgun. Its size & mass can quite often be detrimental.

There were many times where I had to use the off hand to open a door, move items (furniture, clothing in a closet, boxes, etc.) in clearing a house or building. In such cases, the extra weight and length of the shotgun makes it impossible to bring to bear hurriedly one-handed if something jumps up, around, or through while your off hand's tied up.
That's not even counting the additional difficulty in working a shotgun one-handed if one or the other hand's injured, or while using the off hand as a push-off.

The idea of using the shotgun as an impact weapon has its own hazards. Anytime you engage at contact distance, if you can touch the other side he can also touch you.

Buttstroking is not as effective with a rubber recoil pad as the steel plates used to be in older times & contexts. You may very easily just find you've handed half of your shotgun away & now you've got to grapple over it. If you've done some shotgun retention exercises, that's great. Most people haven't, and even then wrestling over a shotgun in a cramped hall or over furniture is an entirely different ballgame than it is in doing it on a mat in the gym with a redgun.

Bonking somebody on the noggin runs similar risks, I prefer to avoid handing my defensive hardware to somebody whenever possible, and if you've ever worked on handgun retention in a competently taught handgun class, you learned that it's far easier to retain in a scuffle (and use it) than a long gun is.

Now retired & able to use anything I can legally possess, it's the same pistol for night-time bumps as it is for daytime regular carry.
Very simply, in my home (as in most of those I used to visit professionally) I can work the floorplan much better with a handgun. :)

The shotguns & other long guns are retained for outdoor use with longer distances & more open spaces.

Although not quite an Apples/Apples analogy, there was a reason the famed tunnel rats of the Vietnam War took one single handgun down into the darkness with them. Our homes aren't nearly as cramped, but the same general principle still applies.
A more compact gun just maneuvers through a more compact space much better than a bigger one. :)

There's no right or wrong answer to the original question, just pointing out alternatives.

Denis

DPris
08-28-2010, 17:31
You're very welcome.

True, best to leave home & other building clearances to the people paid to do it, but that's not always feasible. It may be only an odd noise that wakes you up & not worth calling the PD over, a uniformed response may take a while, and so on.
Full-on glass-breakin', door-bustin', yellin', cussin', threats, and other obvious signs of confirmed imminent entry & intended harm are much more conducive to bedroom barricading with gun & phone than house clearing on your own.

Knowing your own layout (home court advantage :) ) is a tremendous benefit, but still makes it no easier to physically manipulate a shotgun around corners & through doors while trying to check out what woke you up.
It's just harder to hold that muzzle back away from a sudden grab materializing, harder to bring the muzzle up in a hurry one-handed, and more of an all-round nuisance in navigating than a handgun.

I suspect most people don't know how to correctly work a long gun in clearing a house, and it's far different doing it all by yourself than with a team to help. :)

Denis

RMTactical
08-28-2010, 18:19
Extreme firepower at close range, practically unbeatable shot for shot. It was a devastating weapon in the trenches during WWI. There's no doubt it's reputation as a fight stopper is well deserved.

Yes, it reloads slowly. Hopefully though, you won't be facing hoards of zombies in a typical home defense scenario.

tx787
08-28-2010, 22:11
Shotgun is a great choice if you practice with it. The people I know in real life that use a shotgun for HD either have never fired it or have shot it once years ago. I'd rather use my G17 tha Ii shoot two to three times a month.

team9x19
08-28-2010, 23:08
i dedicate my 870 (pistol grip, no stock) for the bedroom, if i have to sweep my house it'll be with my g19 and the lady has a .38
hopefully i'll never have to, but so be it if so...

a friend had a home invasion, apparently the perp came in through the front door, heard the 12 gauge rack, and went through a window in the living room. all things considered when the shotty comes out usually he/ she or they are out as fast as they came in.

shootingbuff
08-28-2010, 23:35
You do realize we are in agreement?

Iattempted to make a couple of points. One to always have a pistol, good sling, know your layout and practice it, use what you are familiar and better with and that gives you the warm and fuzzy.

Pistol to transition tom good sling to assist with transitions, know the layout and plan which should dictate what to use if one is being reasonable, and what what you get the warm and fuzzy from for confidence.

I agreed before and do now. Just wanted to point to the massses that jumping up and attempting to clear is not always the best idea. Add a light mounted or not and the problem increases further.

I just don't write as well as you and have a poor way of trying to make my point/s,

Have a good one,

sb

sb

You're very welcome.

True, best to leave home & other building clearances to the people paid to do it, but that's not always feasible. It may be only an odd noise that wakes you up & not worth calling the PD over, a uniformed response may take a while, and so on.
Full-on glass-breakin', door-bustin', yellin', cussin', threats, and other obvious signs of confirmed imminent entry & intended harm are much more conducive to bedroom barricading with gun & phone than house clearing on your own.

Knowing your own layout (home court advantage :) ) is a tremendous benefit, but still makes it no easier to physically manipulate a shotgun around corners & through doors while trying to check out what woke you up.
It's just harder to hold that muzzle back away from a sudden grab materializing, harder to bring the muzzle up in a hurry one-handed, and more of an all-round nuisance in navigating than a handgun.

I suspect most people don't know how to correctly work a long gun in clearing a house, and it's far different doing it all by yourself than with a team to help. :)

Denis

MrMurphy
08-29-2010, 01:45
The Geneva convention does not ban weapons, the Hague Accords does. And as far as I remember, the shotgun is primarily not used due to it's lack of range. In WW1, the Germans tried to protest shotguns under the Hague Accords, however since they were using chemical weapons, this didn't fly.

Considering the vast array of firepower (M1, M1 carbine, Thompson/Grease Guns, BARs, various heavy machine guns) for the most part, the shotgun except in heavy jungle or for prisoners, simply did not have a role to fill that wasn't already filled. In WW1, where half those weapons did not yet exist, they used the hell out of them every chance they could get.

unit1069
08-29-2010, 06:11
Is the shotgun really KING of HD?

I don't know, but for someone like me I'm inclined to agree. Especially after reading how the shotgun was "rediscovered" in WW I. It seems to me that trench warfare is the ultimate close quarters combat situation.

Tactics might also determine what weapon is preferable. I have read articles by Gabe Suarez, who's highly trained and approaches home defense in an extremely aggressive manner. Busting through doorways to search out and confront intruders is most definitely not recommended for the untrained solo defender. I can only imagine how silly I'd look and how ineffective I'd be attempting to put the Suarez method into action.

On the other hand, Mas Ayoob's recommendations for the average homeowner fits my circumstances very well. Preparation for a home intrusion means having a firearm ready, the family accounted for, a cellphone and/or landline phone at hand, and maybe a good dog for loud barking. Then hunker down and wait for law enforcement to arrive. It seems to me a shotgun would be preferable for someone like me who is not going to go roaming through a dwelling in the dead of night when convinced a criminal is in our midst.

Restless28
08-29-2010, 06:30
Extreme firepower at close range, practically unbeatable shot for shot. It was a devastating weapon in the trenches during WWI. There's no doubt it's reputation as a fight stopper is well deserved.

Yes, it reloads slowly. Hopefully though, you won't be facing hoards of zombies in a typical home defense scenario.

Excellent. :supergrin:


Curious, when the capacity of the shotgun is argued as a negative, wouldn't ballistics testing show that the number of projectile hits on a target actually be the same or more as a high capacity handgun or rifle, and that the velocity of the projectiles is tremendous???

shootingbuff
08-29-2010, 08:36
The Geneva convention does not ban weapons, the Hague Accords does. And as far as I remember, the shotgun is primarily not used due to it's lack of range. In WW1, the Germans tried to protest shotguns under the Hague Accords, however since they were using chemical weapons, this didn't fly.

Considering the vast array of firepower (M1, M1 carbine, Thompson/Grease Guns, BARs, various heavy machine guns) for the most part, the shotgun except in heavy jungle or for prisoners, simply did not have a role to fill that wasn't already filled. In WW1, where half those weapons did not yet exist, they used the hell out of them every chance they could get.


Was going to comment but forgot in making my own response. I love this little tidbit. I get a lot of folks on this who think they know and will let everyone know how smart they are - you know the type .

shootingbuff
08-29-2010, 08:38
The Geneva convention does not ban weapons, the Hague Accords does. And as far as I remember, the shotgun is primarily not used due to it's lack of range. In WW1, the Germans tried to protest shotguns under the Hague Accords, however since they were using chemical weapons, this didn't fly.

Considering the vast array of firepower (M1, M1 carbine, Thompson/Grease Guns, BARs, various heavy machine guns) for the most part, the shotgun except in heavy jungle or for prisoners, simply did not have a role to fill that wasn't already filled. In WW1, where half those weapons did not yet exist, they used the hell out of them every chance they could get.


If mem serves we as in the U.S did not attend the H.A.

shootingbuff
08-29-2010, 08:50
Excellent. :supergrin:


Curious, when the capacity of the shotgun is argued as a negative, wouldn't ballistics testing show that the number of projectile hits on a target actually be the same or more as a high capacity handgun or rifle, and that the velocity of the projectiles is tremendous???


First, if one gets into a capacity issue and they have more than two shots, stuff is bad -real bad; again I fall back my views on transitions and practice.

Now there are ways to ease the recoil of the SG, but for most I would wager target transition is going to be slower so multiple targets requiring fast engagement most would be better served with a pistol or 20-410 depending on the set-up. THAT is a lot to think about more so than reloading a 4-8 shot SG. Even singles and doubles can be reloaded quicker than most think they can. Most never think what the recoil does to follow up shots - especially with a hand held light or other wise one handed.

I'll stop before i hit the preaching mode [=)

MrMurphy
08-29-2010, 10:03
The US did not "attend" the Hague accords as a signatory, however, we do follow it's rules (thus FMJ ammunition, etc). Which as the entire H.A being fairly ridiculous, annoys me, but we do, in general, follow the rules of the Laws of Land Warfare as do the others who did sign it.

I do not claim to know everything, but that bit was hammered into anyone's head who's ever served more than once. "But sergeant why can't we just light them on fire and be done with it!" etc.......

shootingbuff
08-29-2010, 10:11
The US did not "attend" the Hague accords as a signatory, however, we do follow it's rules (thus FMJ ammunition, etc). Which as the entire H.A being fairly ridiculous, annoys me, but we do, in general, follow the rules of the Laws of Land Warfare as do the others who did sign it.

I do not claim to know everything, but that bit was hammered into anyone's head who's ever served more than once. "But sergeant why can't we just light them on fire and be done with it!" etc.......


To answer the question it would be to easy and the U.S wouldn't be handicapped by DA soldier killing RoE,

DPris
08-29-2010, 10:39
Buff,
We're pretty much in agreement, but I wouldn't mess with slinged shotguns & transitions back & forth to pistols indoors.
Too complicated for me. :)
Denis

David Armstrong
08-29-2010, 11:23
from CTfam:
It's just that I love being able to answer the door with my pistol in hand.
And if that is a break-point for you, then it is a break-point. No disagreement.
Also, it's a big advantage having a free hand to open doors, call 911, push an attacker off you, etc.
Ummm, you can do all that with the shotgun. You don't have to keep it in both hands all the time.
What if you find yourself in VERY close quarters with a home invader. For example, you hear a noise.... Go to check it out and BAM there is a BG right there in the room. What would be the fastest to get shots off?
Lots of variables there. What would be fastest is probably whatever you have in the best condition of readiness. Personally, I don't think there would be any realistic difference, or any difference at all, for me between handgun, rifle, and shotgun.
What is the better weapon for a physical fight? The pistol shines here once again.
I'm not sure why you would think that. The shotgun, in a physical fight, gives you a tool with much better reach, leverage, and mass when compared to the handgun.

aippi
08-29-2010, 11:32
Slings work great. Well, in those tactical training courses on an open range. Inside they hang on the other weapons in your safe as you are trying to pull your HD out. The catch on door knobs, corners of furniture and stuff you did not even know was in your house. Sling? Bad idea on an HD. Hope this does not another This -V- That as the topic is beat to death on these sites. Just brought it up as it was mentioned in this thread.

David Armstrong
08-29-2010, 11:32
from Unit1069:
Busting through doorways to search out and confront intruders is most definitely not recommended for the untrained solo defender. I can only imagine how silly I'd look and how ineffective I'd be attempting to put the Suarez method into action.
It's not just you. The Suarez method, while appealing to those without much real tactical understanding, isn't a particularly good idea.
On the other hand, Mas Ayoob's recommendations for the average homeowner fits my circumstances very well.
There is a reason Mas is almost universally recognized as an expert in this field. Unlike the previous party, he does give good advice.

DPris
08-29-2010, 11:42
David,
Navigating one-handed with a shotgun is just flat not easy to do. :)
You can't move it around one-handed anywhere near as quickly as a pistol.
Believe me, or try it yourself through a prolonged house search.
It's heavy, slow, and cumbersome.
Denis

Deaf Smith
08-29-2010, 11:56
While I prefer my M1 Carbine I do recognize the 12 gauge, especially in 18 inch barrel format, will do fine, quite fine, in HD use.

And here is an advantage the 12 has most do not see. If the invaders are wearing bullet proof vest (it has happened) a 12 in the face or pelvis region works very well and not has hard to deliver as a rifle or pistol.

The down side is, if it's a hostage situation, the shotgun is at a bit of a disadvantage (not a real bad one, but still you will have to know how much aim off to make a partial blast hit.

And yes guys, unless you hear your children screaming in another room or something like that, stay put, call the cops, and let the bad guys make the mistake of coming to YOU.

Not to many nightmares a bad guy has than sneaking in a door and seeing a 12 gauge muzzle pointing at them from behind an end table at the other side of the room.

Deaf

CTfam
08-29-2010, 12:12
Ummm, you can do all that with the shotgun. You don't have to keep it in both hands all the time.

Ummm really? Unless you have a super light weight semi auto..... Yes you do. What will you do after you get that first shot off? You need to pump the damn thing which can cause it's own issues if not properly trained or if someone is trying to wrestle the gun away from you. The pistol wins here. END of discussion! :tongueout:

CTfam
08-29-2010, 12:21
Buff,
We're pretty much in agreement, but I wouldn't mess with slinged shotguns & transitions back & forth to pistols indoors.
Too complicated for me. :)
Denis

+1. This talk of slinging and transition to side arm is just silly. I'm talking night time home defense. When you're half naked and crusty eyed and you hear a crash at your back door, your car alarm going off, voices outside your window, etc. You have to grab ONE firearm and react. If there is a fight that's all you have. My go to HD weapons have lights and NONE have a sling.

I have ZERO use for a sling on my go to home defense weapon. I don't want anything getting caught or tangled. Plus it's just more junk for a BG to grab onto if you find yourself that close.

MrMurphy
08-29-2010, 12:31
While a fan of quick adjust 2 pt slings on a rifle, i've trained extensively with them and my first action on picking a rifle up is to sling it, which takes zero time (done it thousands of times, usually while running to/from a vehicle) On a HD shotgun...... yes, the simple carry strap is NOT good. It will catch on things and get in the way. A side-mounted QD/QA sling, slung on the body, not just hanging will not do nearly so much, but either one require training, and for middle-of-the-night situations, I wouldn't use one on a shotgun.

aippi
08-29-2010, 14:13
Unlike some, I may have no option then to go check a building. I have a gun shop on my property. There are only two Deputies to cover the entire county after midnight. Their response time could be 20+ minutes and more in the winter as our roads up here are not safe somtimes at speeds over 30 miles and hour.

For this reason I plan on how to do this. I am trained and I have trained others so I have the confidence to do this if needed but the shop is one large room not a home or building with mulitple rooms. My first option is to call 911 and wait. I will watch the shop and if anyone comes out carring anything, I will enguage. I can not allow weapons to be stolen as these are the kind that end up on the street and are not only a public safety issue but a threat to LEO's. But to try and enter a home or building and clear it by myself, no way unless I know lives are being taken and there are no options.

It takes a team to clean a building or large house. And they better have worked together and know what each is doing. Every uncleared room, closet, hallway and area behind an uncleared object is a threat. You can't do that alone. If you have to, then you have to. Hope you never have to.

shootingbuff
08-29-2010, 14:35
Buff,
We're pretty much in agreement, but I wouldn't mess with slinged shotguns & transitions back & forth to pistols indoors.
Too complicated for me. :)
Denis

I am not a fan of slings but do feel they have merit especially where I don't want or can not set the longarm down. I practice my transitions without the sling, but as stated there are some good slings that make using one easy. Additionally if a light is required not having a sling would be a situation in its self. For HD I already stated my SOP. AFA complicated upsafety and let it fall or ease it into position. The oldier swing it to the rear or drop it and let it flop are not what I am referring to when it comes to slings. Using a good sling is easier than hitting a smooth reload under pressure.

Again we go back to knowing the home, laying out a plan and practicing it and then tweaking it from your feedback.

shootingbuff
08-29-2010, 15:01
David,
Navigating one-handed with a shotgun is just flat not easy to do. :)
You can't move it around one-handed anywhere near as quickly as a pistol.
Believe me, or try it yourself through a prolonged house search.
It's heavy, slow, and cumbersome.
Denis

Agree, but we get back to if there is a need. Once the need is considered nad you determine you must clear your home there are basically two ways of doing it - slow and deliberate or dynamic. I think the pistol is fater however if you are going in slow it doesn't matter from a speed stand point, if you are bouncing through does the speed difference handicap you? Yet the ability to put a lot of hurt on someone instantly in front of you does have an advantage.

Some SGs just like pistols can be limp wristed. Of course it is much eaiser to have happen one handed. Then you have the pump...which is going to take two hands to cycle the action.

AFA using the SG asa nonlethal wpn it has its advantages but also disadvantages like leverage and leading the way. Wouldn't want to get physical with a longarm especially if jumped again transitions :wow::supergrin:. Main thing is to practice both physically but just and maybe more important mentally for every situation you can imagine.

Let me say my favorite type of firearm is the SG becasue I think it is the hardest to become accomplished with. Most as someone mentioned don't shoot a SG much or not defensively anyway. That stated I reach for a pistol and only reach for a long arm if I am holding up or feel there is a need to go outside. Try this have someone 3-4 steps away then reach while laying in bed your SG and bring it to bear. Next same thing with a pistol. Of course if you are one who keeps their pistol locked or on top of a shelf you better have at least one little yapper to give warning. If it is in the time of darkness using the light mounted even is not as easy as having it in your off hand manuvering a pistol. I have run many a match in daylight requiring the use of a light. It is truely amazing at how poorly those that don't practice the using a light do - IN THE LIGHT.

Again use what one feels warm and fuzzy with and use the best. The flip side is have a plan that is reheased and practice on the range and at home. Turn those lights of tonight and go through the house. Have someone hide even (USE A BROOM HANDLE NOT A FIREARM) Have the person give you feed back and not disclose their self. Then you hide and let them go through the house.

Go to stop before the preaching starts :pepper:

shootingbuff
08-29-2010, 15:11
+1. This talk of slinging and transition to side arm is just silly. I'm talking night time home defense. When you're half naked and crusty eyed and you hear a crash at your back door, your car alarm going off, voices outside your window, etc. You have to grab ONE firearm and react. If there is a fight that's all you have. My go to HD weapons have lights and NONE have a sling.

I have ZERO use for a sling on my go to home defense weapon. I don't want anything getting caught or tangled. Plus it's just more junk for a BG to grab onto if you find yourself that close.


The only time i have to grab one wpn is the door crashing in. Other than that I have time and if the alleged BGs are outside that is time to attempt to observe and report until the time comes they are atttempting to breach or destory your home that you and your family is in. What I am saying is most of the scenarios you gave provide time to do more than shoot and scoot out of my current location. Now I don't carry a longarm around hte house. So usally I will just have a pistol for the right now.

We all pretty much agree. it is just making small points from our own viewpoint. This is a good thing. In the past it seems everyone wanted to clear everything and do it in a dynamic fashion. Time and place for everything.

shootingbuff
08-29-2010, 15:15
Unlike some, I may have no option then to go check a building. I have a gun shop on my property. There are only two Deputies to cover the entire county after midnight. Their response time could be 20+ minutes and more in the winter as our roads up here are not safe somtimes at speeds over 30 miles and hour.

For this reason I plan on how to do this. I am trained and I have trained others so I have the confidence to do this if needed but the shop is one large room not a home or building with mulitple rooms. My first option is to call 911 and wait. I will watch the shop and if anyone comes out carring anything, I will enguage. I can not allow weapons to be stolen as these are the kind that end up on the street and are not only a public safety issue but a threat to LEO's. But to try and enter a home or building and clear it by myself, no way unless I know lives are being taken and there are no options.



Please check the area and the near area for security, lookouts, getaway driver or what not in the act of covering the exits.

Pecos Bill
08-29-2010, 16:23
Rethink the shotgun. Them ducks don't stand a chance. LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iou1KMnVCPI

CTfam
08-29-2010, 16:36
Shotguns are for ducks, deer, zombies and other soft unarmed targets. :poke:

If someone is shooting back there are better options. If they aren't armed, I'm not shooting. Maybe... :tbo:

aippi
08-29-2010, 17:50
I guess all those LEO's that carry shotguns are very worried about killer ducks :-).

shootingbuff
08-29-2010, 18:10
As stated each pistol. carbine, SG has advantages and disadvantages. Know the strength and weakness of each.

Restless28
08-29-2010, 18:38
Shotguns are for ducks, deer, zombies and other soft unarmed targets. :poke:

If someone is shooting back there are better options. If they aren't armed, I'm not shooting. Maybe... :tbo:


You have too much faith in your AK and Glock and too little in shotguns.

For the average, non-ninja homeowner, the shotgun is the best choice for HD. For the ninjas and spec-ops guys, it's a Fudd gun, right? If not, tell me your better options for the non-ninja average person.

ETA: The shotgun can defend your home, put food on the table, and ammo is available everywhere and is cheap. No other firearm is as easily accessible or can be used for almost anything you need a gun for, with the exception of CCW. JMHO.

Lampshade
08-29-2010, 19:06
For the average, non-ninja homeowner, the shotgun is the best choice for HD.

Eh, I think for a lot of non dedicated gun people a full size pistol is better because it is much easier to control. Shotgun recoil is pretty heavy for a lot of folks.

aippi
08-29-2010, 20:17
I can't agree that a hand gun is easier to teach. I have found it easier to teach a novice a shotgun then to teach them a pistol. I gave up teaching a lady friend my 1911 as she continued to limp wrist it. She loved the 870 with light loads and loved seeing the large hits in the dirt bank and could see she was hitting were she was aiming. the SpecOps allowed her to deal with the recoil once she learned to shoot that stock and she was able to move up to standard 00 buck. She also hated my model 36 and anything double action. She certainly had more control over the shotgun but a lot of this may have been due to the facted she like it better or, she like it better because she had more control.

I have found this to be the case other times also and consider the shotgun easier to teach then the handgun when done properly. Some make a big mistake when starting a novice out on a shotgun. they put 00 in there and start them off with that so they will learn the the shotgun kicks. If they would start with light target loads and work up they would have more sucess. I think they would find a shotgun where fired properly is easier to control for most people then a handgun, baring the .22's of course.

So maybe another plug for the shotgun as HD since everyone of age in the home should know how to use the dedicated home defense weapon.

Thunderbolt56
08-30-2010, 09:29
Simply put, I have a couple handguns that are my "go to" guns for just about everything. But, I also have a 500TK that I use mostly for hunting. I make sure to keep a box pre-packed with dozen or so shells of buckshot and the same of birdshot handy as a quick grab for my SHTF scenario. My Wife is familiar with it and she prefers it over everything else I have. In our area, survival along with a specific bug-in/bug-out plan always includes 2 handguns and the shotgun.

For HD duty, the standard in my household is a pistol.

David Armstrong
08-30-2010, 09:56
David,
Navigating one-handed with a shotgun is just flat not easy to do. :)
You can't move it around one-handed anywhere near as quickly as a pistol.
Believe me, or try it yourself through a prolonged house search.
It's heavy, slow, and cumbersome.
Denis

First, that was not the issue, the issue was "it's a big advantage having a free hand to open doors, call 911, push an attacker off you, etc." Second, as for prolonged house searches, I do not recommend them for most folks having done them for 20+ years as a LEO and inthe military.

David Armstrong
08-30-2010, 10:01
Ummm really? Unless you have a super light weight semi auto..... Yes you do.yes, really. Super light weight or not, there is nothing about "having a free hand to open doors, call 911, push an attacker off you, etc." that requires two hands on the shotgun.
What will you do after you get that first shot off? You need to pump the damn thing which can cause it's own issues if not properly trained or if someone is trying to wrestle the gun away from you.
I'd suggest that you then put both hands on the shotgun and take care of the problem. Again, actually shooting the gun has no bearing on the issue of calling 9-1-1, opening a door, etc.
The pistol wins here. END of discussion!
Sorry, but while mis-stating the limitations of the shotgun yo have also failed to identify the limitations with the handgun. End of discussion? Not even close!:supergrin:

David Armstrong
08-30-2010, 11:03
As one who has done a lot of teaching others on the various weapon platforms, my $.02 is as follows:
The shotgun is the easiest and fastest to train to an acceptable level, but the hardest to teach to it's full capability.
The handgun is the hardest to train to an an acceptable level and quite hard to learn to the full capability.
The rifle/carbine is the easiest to train to a proficient level and the easiest to learn at full capability.
The above refers to shooting dynamics only.
I define "an acceptable level" as the level needed to control your personal space in a commonly occurring situation.

mixflip
08-30-2010, 11:32
There is no right or wrong answer. What works for me may not feel comfortable for someone else?

I like to use a minigun to search my house but that may not work for everybody? Lol.

DPris
08-30-2010, 11:45
Teaching others to shoot the shotgun can be relatively easy.
Its effectiveness is unquestioned.

What both of those issues ignore is actually WORKING it through a house.
And my one-handed references refer to those moments when you HAVE to take one hand off the gun to use it elsewhere.

I spent 26 years in various uniforms, and was a firearms instructor for my last PD.
During training and actual on the job experience, I could not get the shotgun to move quickly to bring it up on target one-handed if somebody broke on me unexpectedly, I could with a handgun.
It was just slower all the way around, it was awkward to round tight right-hand corners, it was awkward to climb ladders with it in hand, and it was heavy in working certain positions one-handed in trying to keep the muzzle back with the off hand forward to guard.
We taught off-hand pushoffs that incorporated firing one or more shots at near contact distance immediately after pushing a "target" away, quite easy to do up close with a handgun, not nearly so much with a shotgun.

I have wrestled with a guy over his shotgun, I have wrestled with a guy while I had my SIG in hand.
The shotgun makes a very easy to grab proposition if somebody gets close enough to do it. I had no trouble hanging on to his shotgun in that instance, but the guy substantially outweighed me & if I had no other backup alternatives (handgun, responding units) I don't know who would have eventually won on that one. He also had another family member to back him up.
In the other case, the guy didn't get to my SIG, I had little trouble keeping it away from him, and the pistol was much easier to secure.

There are other areas where the shortgun is just easier to work with than the shotgun.

Learning to shoot the shotgun on the range, where you have wide open spaces and nicely set-up 90-degree barricades to shoot behind is a far cry from the insides of a typical house.
Make your own choices, but don't just stop at "Mongo say shotgun BIGGER bang!" and let it go at that. :)
Denis

David Armstrong
08-30-2010, 11:59
What both of those issues ignore is actually WORKING it through a house.

And what that ignores is the overwhelming wisdom that says don't work through the house. HD is more than "go find the bad guy". In fact, go find the bad guy should be a very small part of HD.
And my one-handed references refer to those moments when you HAVE to take one hand off the gun to use it elsewhere.
One can cherry pick specific problems or issues to make just about any point. I prefer to deal with the overall picture. Given the overall picture, there is a reason the shotgun reigns for defensive position use in the home, and why it is still the main choice for officers clearing a home. I certainly don't disagree with those that chose the rifle or handgun based on their personal situation, but I do take exception with those that want to argue the shotgun isn't a good choice in general for most.

DPris
08-30-2010, 12:24
Bringing up issues most casual shotgun-owning home defenders probably have not considered isn't cherry picking anything, it's bringing up info to consider. :)

An informed choice is the best choice, whichever way you go.

Digging in and waiting for cavalry to arrive is usually the best option, but it's not the only one.
Country people may not have 30 minutes to wait, it can be necessary to traverse at least part of the house to secure kids, and you don't get an immediate response if you call 911 on a "I just heard a strange noise somewhere" deal. In some larger metro areas you won't get one at all.
Your subconscious may alert you that something in the normal background sound tapestry has changed & wake you up. It most often is not enough to call the PD or SO on, but then again you don't feel right in just going back to sleep without a quick once-around-the-house.

I do that about half a dozen times a year in the middle of the night, and while it's not a full-blown "flash-bang dynamic entry" through each & every room in the place, I don't just stroll along like I would during the normal day's activities, either.

There are varying degrees of "home defense", and for those who honestly & realistically evaluate their own needs & abilities, I don't have a problem with pistol, carbine, or shotgun as the end choice.
Basing hardware decisions solely on effectiveness in one set of circumstances that don't necessarily translate well to HD applications, without due consideration, may not be the best way to go. :)

Denis

David Armstrong
08-30-2010, 13:35
Bringing up issues most casual shotgun-owning home defenders probably have not considered isn't cherry picking anything, it's bringing up info to consider.
I'd disagree, particularly when the info to consider is the rare exception to the norm, contradicted by traditional concerns, or similar.
Basing hardware decisions solely on effectiveness in one set of circumstances that don't necessarily translate well to HD applications, without due consideration, may not be the best way to go.
We certainly agree on that. I think where we disagree is is on what constitutes "effectiveness in one set of circumstances" as opposed to "effective for general circumstances." FWIW, if the circumstances are "I'm going to look through the house and have no idea what I may encounter or how many there are, but I'm worried enough I think I'll take a gun" I want the big guns!:wavey:

Zell
08-30-2010, 16:19
Shotgun for me for HD:

-- A shotgun is a man-stopper or at least the first shot would be a distracter until the finishing round is shot.

-- The rack of a pump shotgun is enough to put the fear of God in the mind of any intruder in the middle of the night.


-- Riffle’s have a greater likelihood that a stray bullet from a high powered riffle (or high powered handgun) will harm my neighbor or his house. Shotguns don’t.


-- Don’t need to worry about being all that accurate, as I would have to be with a handgun, when I fire a shotgun while under maximum adrenalin as a result of a crisis situation.

CTfam
08-30-2010, 17:50
I can't agree that a hand gun is easier to teach. I have found it easier to teach a novice a shotgun then to teach them a pistol. I gave up teaching a lady friend my 1911 as she continued to limp wrist it. She loved the 870 with light loads and loved seeing the large hits in the dirt bank and could see she was hitting were she was aiming. the SpecOps allowed her to deal with the recoil once she learned to shoot that stock and she was able to move up to standard 00 buck. She also hated my model 36 and anything double action. She certainly had more control over the shotgun but a lot of this may have been due to the facted she like it better or, she like it better because she had more control.

I have found this to be the case other times also and consider the shotgun easier to teach then the handgun when done properly. Some make a big mistake when starting a novice out on a shotgun. they put 00 in there and start them off with that so they will learn the the shotgun kicks. If they would start with light target loads and work up they would have more sucess. I think they would find a shotgun where fired properly is easier to control for most people then a handgun, baring the .22's of course.

So maybe another plug for the shotgun as HD since everyone of age in the home should know how to use the dedicated home defense weapon.

With all due respect I have had the exact opposite experience when teaching new shooters. Yes I used bird shot and had a Knoxx stock. They quickly put the shotgun down in favor of other guns I had laid out.

Really who cares about novice shooters? This is about US and OUR preferred weapon based on a lot of thought/experience.

CTfam
08-30-2010, 18:05
I do take exception with those that want to argue the shotgun isn't a good choice in general for most.

FWIW I have tremendous respect for the shotgun and still have a Mossberg 500a w/ TLR-1 in the corner on "night duty".... Until I get a light mount for my AK of course! :tongueout:

Don't take this thread personal people. I was joking with the "shotguns are for ducks" comment. Restless28 even suggested I'm a Ninja for pointing out the weaknesses of the pump shotgun. :upeyes:

I just want to discuss the pros/cons of each platform and see what wins. In my mind a handgun is the best for 99.9% of the situations a civilian will find himself in. If things get real crazy grab your favorite long gun. Just make sure you can make hits with it.

shootingbuff
08-30-2010, 18:26
Staying on topic - sort of :yawn:

I don't think anyone has argued the point of lights mounted or otherwise. Reason I bring this up.

Making your recoil operated S-A SG to hvy causing jams and still usually requiring two hands.

Still usually requiring two hands on a pump SG.

Pistol usually requires two hands as well :wow:

Practice as you plan to fight and be prepared

Points:

Walking around with a SG in one hand also has not had some points made.

Again some SGs can be limp wristed and will be eaiser to wrestle away if grabbed

Pumps require a second hand to pump and will require more time getting back into battery.

Attta boys for the SG: putting a lot of hurt with one round on target

Longarms usually are easier to train

Slings can be beneficial but mostly we don't like them for HD.

Pistol is easier to move through the home with.

SG has much slower recovery and transitions.

SGs are usually harder to reload than a pistol.

Question is would you ever have to reload the SG? If so practice if you like the SG.

There may be a need to clear your home, but usally the best policy would be to stay put and hole up.

Is that about it?

David Armstrong
08-30-2010, 21:34
In my mind a handgun is the best for 99.9% of the situations a civilian will find himself in.
And that is great...for your mind. But actual experience seems to indicate that for most civilians and the situations they face in HD, the handgun is not a particularly good choice.
Really who cares about novice shooters? This is about US and OUR preferred weapon based on a lot of thought/experience.
That seems to be contradicted by your statement above about "best for 99.9% of the situations a civilian will find himself in."
I just want to discuss the pros/cons of each platform and see what wins.
Pros and cons of platforms is a very different concept than preferred weapon based on experience.
If things get real crazy grab your favorite long gun.
I'm not sure I follow the reasoning here. So you are saying the handgun is a good choice as long as there isn't any trouble?

aippi
08-30-2010, 22:46
A few weeks ago on the news I heard of a guy shot over 20 times by NYPD not shot at 20 times but hit 20 times. I was told they use .40, is that true. If so that should be a man stopper.

Don't post no mess about one round of anything in the right place will stop anyone as this is not the issue. The issue is that LEO's trained in the uses of handguns shot a man over 20 times and he lived.

Yet, some of you posting on here are trying to tell me the handgun is better for Home defense then the shotgun. If I have to shoot then it is a gun fight. I don't care if is only coming at me with a club or knife it is still a gun fight and I want to win it is fault he brought the knife.

So you handgun guys are picking a weapon for all these different reasons and the only real reason to pick is so that you win. On my web site and on my business cards is this statement " If you're going to a gun fight, take a shotgun. If you can't take a shotgun don't go". If you understood these weapons and understand what happens when you are forced to use one then I think you would agree that a shotgun in your hands is better then any handgun, any time any where.

So you are saying that you will come out of that bedroom or out of your house facing a possible armed confrontation and you choose to take a handgun over a shotgun. I have never personally met anyone who would say that. I guess I travel on different roads then you guys.

The shotgun is the King of HD or any close quarters fight.

David Armstrong
08-31-2010, 09:37
If you understood these weapons and understand what happens when you are forced to use one then I think you would agree that a shotgun in your hands is better then any handgun, any time any where.
IMO, the problem with that, J.D., is few people really understand the weapons. We see that here on a regular basis. And we also have the issue that most folks are not well-trained with any weapons platform, much less all of them. I'd rather have someone who is more familiar with and experienced with the handgun and limited with the shotgun to grab that handgun. I'd hazard a guess that most folks here haven't put 1000 rounds through their shotgun, have never had a formal training class on the shotgun as a fighting weapon, and so on. Lots more folks have done those things with the handgun. So familiarity does have some advantages.
I was told they use .40, is that true.
Last I heard, NYPD was using the 9mm and the approved ammo was Speer Gold Dot 124 gr.

Big_Grumpy
08-31-2010, 11:15
I'll say handgun... until you can get to your shotgun.

Or bypass the handgun altogether if you're already near your shotgun. :cool:

No contest. I can't believe there's even a debate. :upeyes:

But hey, as was probably already said, shoot what you feel comfortable with. Any gun is better than no gun.

DPris
08-31-2010, 11:52
JD,
That's exactly what I'm saying. :)
I have three 870s (2 Vang, one original Scattergun Tech) and three slicked up coachguns (one being a 1980s vintage Stevens 311R, you may recall those were marketed for LE). I have quality equipment to choose from, including two 16-inch ARs, a very light & handy M1 Carbine, and three 16-inch Marlin leverguns in .357 Mag, .44 Mag, and .45 Colt.

They all have their place, which is in the vault unless one goes with me on an outing.
When I come out of the bedroom it's with a 1911.
That would be the same if I heard a patio chair tip over outside or the front door being kicked.

You do travel a different road than I do.
You choose your traveling companion, I'll choose mine. :)

Denis

bikerdog
08-31-2010, 17:55
JD,
That's exactly what I'm saying. :)
I have three 870s (2 Vang, one original Scattergun Tech) and three slicked up coachguns (one being a 1980s vintage Stevens 311R, you may recall those were marketed for LE). I have quality equipment to choose from, including two 16-inch ARs, a very light & handy M1 Carbine, and three 16-inch Marlin leverguns in .357 Mag, .44 Mag, and .45 Colt.

They all have their place, which is in the vault unless one goes with me on an outing.
When I come out of the bedroom it's with a 1911.
That would be the same if I heard a patio chair tip over outside or the front door being kicked.

You do travel a different road than I do.
You choose your traveling companion, I'll choose mine. :)

Denis

Sorry to go off on another question but how do you like the Vang comp to say a normal modified. the reason I ask is I'm thinking of dropping a decent sum of money on an 870 project with a Vang comp.

DPris
08-31-2010, 18:17
Bdog,
Start another thread & we can go into it. :)
Denis

ranger1968
08-31-2010, 18:21
Is the Shotgun the king of Home Defense?

YES.

aippi
08-31-2010, 18:21
For 21 years the people of the state of Florida paid for my ammo. I shot a lot. In fact my Training budget for a 12 man (plus 2 alternate) HRT was more then the ammo budget for training and requal for our 426 Officers. Did I mention I shot a lot?

I retired and had to start buying my own. Yes, less trigger time, far less. I have seen my proficency with handguns go down, way down. Once was an Expert on the State pistol team and cleaned house at the annual FPOA match. Not now, I knew I had to do something about it so I bought a Ruger 22/45 since the grip angle is like my Commander and the controls are set up simular. Plan is to get back at it. A couple hundred rounds of .22 with that then a few mags of ball through my Commander then one last mag of carry ammo. A way to try and get the round count back with out going broke.

However, my ablity with my shotgun has not diminished. Yes, I test fire my custom builds but I don't shoot one tenth of the shells I did back then. Don't know if anyone finds my case fits them but since I still have it with shotgun. Well, you know the rest.

david wright
08-31-2010, 18:51
I have three shottys and six AKsl I have all Tacticle 18 inch barrels on my Mossbergs and collapsible stocks. First off 2 and three quarter inch buckshot or slug will pennatrate body armer, it will go through the front and lodge deep in the back Kevlar, Ive shot a US Military Kevlar at 20 feet and that was what happened and knocked the vest about ten foot back. Grantted this isnt a level 3 entry vest with ballistic plates, but even if they have that and u hit them with in 10 foot like most home attacks occur and your still going to shatter ribs and cause internal damage. I was shot 3 times at point blank range in my upper thorax with Kevlar on by a .380 auto while repoing a car and half way to the hospital started cougfing up blood. Pulled my wrecker into the ambulence bay with the car i repoed and when the security guard yelled you cant park that ther i put it in park told him id bin shot and collapsed. Seems the 3 380 auto rounds broke 2 ribs and jammed one threw my liver, tore a golf ball size hole in it. I would have bin dead in about another ten mins without surgery immeditly. Iknow an OPD officer that stopped a car with his partner and was opened up on with a Glock 23, apparently they had pulled over a fella who had just robbed a pawn shop and stole a bunch of guns, His partner was killed instantly by a head shot. he nearly died as well and spent months in the hospital and left in a wheelchair and spent a year in that chair before walking with arm braces after constent rehab. I only bring these bad things up to kinda give u some real time data. Shotgun with the right barrel and load wins hands down even to an AK. U have to hit the target first, and in the middle of the night adrenalized and half asleep even a marks men like me can miss. And buckshot gives u a little room for error. And load number 8 birdshot if u have close neighbors or roomates, TRUST ME nothing gets the point across faster than pumping a 12 Gauge that will end a fight before it even starts most the time.

david wright

shootingbuff
08-31-2010, 19:07
A few weeks ago on the news I heard of a guy shot over 20 times by NYPD not shot at 20 times but hit 20 times. I was told they use .40, is that true. If so that should be a man stopper.

Don't post no mess about one round of anything in the right place will stop anyone as this is not the issue. The issue is that LEO's trained in the uses of handguns shot a man over 20 times and he lived.

Yet, some of you posting on here are trying to tell me the handgun is better for Home defense then the shotgun. If I have to shoot then it is a gun fight. I don't care if is only coming at me with a club or knife it is still a gun fight and I want to win it is fault he brought the knife.

So you handgun guys are picking a weapon for all these different reasons and the only real reason to pick is so that you win. On my web site and on my business cards is this statement " If you're going to a gun fight, take a shotgun. If you can't take a shotgun don't go". If you understood these weapons and understand what happens when you are forced to use one then I think you would agree that a shotgun in your hands is better then any handgun, any time any where.

So you are saying that you will come out of that bedroom or out of your house facing a possible armed confrontation and you choose to take a handgun over a shotgun. I have never personally met anyone who would say that. I guess I travel on different roads then you guys.

The shotgun is the King of HD or any close quarters fight.

I spoke of self when I mentioned HG.

That said for the avg homeowner you may be right, yet still they should not go out and try to clear a house. The avg homeowner with the longarm has more potential for oh craps and more training when they move out to clear with a long arm. Again add low light with a light and the oh crapness factor grows even more.

What must be considered is the skill lvl of the home owner and if or if not the home owner expects to clear the house. Then take into account low light conditions and even multiple threats, house layout, and how narrow and close the hallways/openings are to each other and how wide they are.

What can not be stated here is the best for all in all situations. We can lean toward scenario based views but there are no absolutes here especially when it comes to unknown varibales.

shootingbuff
08-31-2010, 19:25
For 21 years the people of the state of Florida paid for my ammo. I shot a lot. In fact my Training budget for a 12 man (plus 2 alternate) HRT was more then the ammo budget for training and requal for our 426 Officers. Did I mention I shot a lot?

I retired and had to start buying my own. Yes, less trigger time, far less. I have seen my proficency with handguns go down, way down. Once was an Expert on the State pistol team and cleaned house at the annual FPOA match. Not now, I knew I had to do something about it so I bought a Ruger 22/45 since the grip angle is like my Commander and the controls are set up simular. Plan is to get back at it. A couple hundred rounds of .22 with that then a few mags of ball through my Commander then one last mag of carry ammo. A way to try and get the round count back with out going broke.

However, my ablity with my shotgun has not diminished. Yes, I test fire my custom builds but I don't shoot one tenth of the shells I did back then. Don't know if anyone finds my case fits them but since I still have it with shotgun. Well, you know the rest.


As you mentioned you have practised a lot and trained. Most folks understand the concept of yank the hell out of the trigger and a revo is hard to short stroke and limp wrist as well.

If you don't bring all variables to the table I am really going to start to wonder.

Everything must be considered and one needs to take self out of the equation.

I have commented on what I would do and showed both pros and cons for the SG. My side is getting the information out so the reader can decide and as I have stated use what one is famialer with and gets the warm and fuzzy over. There is no need for any to act defensivly. Just put the information out and let the reader decide.

shootingbuff
08-31-2010, 19:41
Shotgun for me for HD:

-- A shotgun is a man-stopper or at least the first shot would be a distracter until the finishing round is shot.

-- The rack of a pump shotgun is enough to put the fear of God in the mind of any intruder in the middle of the night.


-- Riffle’s have a greater likelihood that a stray bullet from a high powered riffle (or high powered handgun) will harm my neighbor or his house. Shotguns don’t.


-- Don’t need to worry about being all that accurate, as I would have to be with a handgun, when I fire a shotgun while under maximum adrenalin as a result of a crisis situation.

A SG can be a man-stopper, but first you have to hit and if you don't you better be good with your SG and hope the intruder you just shot "AT'is not armed or does not have the fight part of flight or fight. That way you may have to answer to a jury vs St Peter at the Pearly Gates.

AFA the rack if one was intent on doing you harm you did a fine job of giving away your position.

Remember many aggencies have gone to the 5.56 becasue of overpenetration. Most anything else would be major overpen but most wouldn't use their hunting rifle unless it was the only thing they had.

Yep no one needs to be accurate with a SG at those encounter ranges someone mentioned where you will get no spread or maybe an inch or two. Pattern your SG from 5' to your furtherest distance you would be engauging in your home.

shootingbuff
08-31-2010, 19:43
There is a lot of good information here to be considered and pondered. I would suggest that is what needs to happen.

david wright
08-31-2010, 19:47
I thought we were talkin bout Shotties. Whats up with the Drama, I graduated highschool in 90.

Lol david wright

shootingbuff
08-31-2010, 20:11
:rofl::pms::milestone:I thought we were talkin bout Shotties. Whats up with the Drama, I graduated highschool in 90.

Lol david wright

CTfam
08-31-2010, 20:11
And that is great...for your mind. But actual experience seems to indicate that for most civilians and the situations they face in HD, the handgun is not a particularly good choice.

Based on what? It seems that we have different opinions here that's all. How is the handgun a bad choice? I don't think either are bad choices.

That seems to be contradicted by your statement above about "best for 99.9% of the situations a civilian will find himself in."

:dunno: Not sure I understand you here... By civilian I mean a responsible gun owner who has a decent understanding of his/her firearm but doesn't use one for a living. (I am not a cop or a soldier.) I would put myself into this category.

Pros and cons of platforms is a very different concept than preferred weapon based on experience.

I'm talking about my preferred platform based on the pros and cons. I own all three platforms and have a good amount of range time with all of them. Don't take my opinion so personal. The shotgun is a great weapon! Happy now?

I'm not sure I follow the reasoning here. So you are saying the handgun is a good choice as long as there isn't any trouble?


Now you're just being silly. No I'm saying a handgun is a great defensive weapon for civilians who are sitting at home minding their own business. I'm not kicking doors or engaging armed forces. If the SHTF, rioting, looting, revolution, gangsters put a hit out on your family, etc, I will be waiting with my long gun of choice. Until the SHHH reaches that level I'm not going to cook dinner, shower, take a dump, watch tv, with my shotgun within arms reach. The long guns are close by but the Glock is always with me. Shotguns are the best man stoppers out there but I can't mow my lawn wearing one... Here in CT anyways. :embarassed:

How did I get stuck defending the handgun? :upeyes:

david wright
08-31-2010, 20:28
A SG can be a man-stopper, but first you have to hit and if you don't you better be good with your SG and hope the intruder you just shot is not armed or does not have the fight part of flight or fight. That way you may have to answer to a jury vs St Peter at the Pearly Gates.

AFA the rack if one was intent on doing you harm you did a fine job of giving away your position.

Remember many aggencies have gone to the 5.56 becasue of overpenetration. Most anything else would be major overpen but most wouldn't use their hunting rifle unless it was the only thing they had.

Yep no one needs to be accurate with a SG at those encounter ranges someone mentioned where you will get no spread or maybe an inch or two. Pattern your SG from 5' to your furtherest distance you would be engauging in your home.
I dont know what COP shows uve bin watchin bit 9 out of 10 times in a home invassion or armed burglery your intruder is going to know where u are and you him. Remember 3am ur asleep and your woken up to glass breaking or your door bring kicked in, your half asleep at best adrenalized and phreaked out, your skill is reduced so is your reaction time. Most likly your going to set up a defensive position in the master bedroom with the wife, and call the police. Your not going into your dark ass house to clear it, unless ur ERT or SWAT and even those guys wait for backup, 2s better than 1 and 5 is alot better, most response times are 4 to 8mins, thats all you have to hold them down for, NINE rounds of double oo buckshot will level a house or Apartment. Ive seen the after effects my two God Parrents are Orange county sherrifs on the ERT Team. Even with BIRDSHOT the humman body comes appart when hit, and if you grase someone in the leg or arm ur talkin 9 9mm balls commin at ur ass at 1500+fps with energy transfer in the hundreds of pounds per square inch!!

I dropped a 500lb brown bear 4 years ago walking in the woods before hybernation time for the bears. so there trying to fatten up. I came across him by total accident. Lucky for me my fathers from Kentucky and taught me at a young age to never go into the woods without a good shotgun, and that day i was carrying his Browning BPS 12 gauge with 3 rounds of oo buckshot, the gun was huge 28inch ribbed barrel bottom load bottom eject. I brought the SG to shoulder after trying to be loud as hell and backing off as fast as possible when he charged, i fired one shot hit him in the head and his butt dropped like a rock. Remember shot placement is the key to any incounter, id rather hit with a 22 then miss with a 44mag.

just my opion and most law inforcments to!

david wright

shootingbuff
08-31-2010, 20:38
I will overlook your comments about cop shows because I don't think you read my post except the part of raking the slide. which I disagree with and even if the BG did know where you were it could mean an instant attack as soon as the firearm is seen or suspected or laying in wait. Better to not have the BG know you are armed or where you are at.

If I am wrong pm me or we can discuss it here until we both get banned. I guess you also did not see where I suggest not to try clearing the house. Before assuming one needs to think about self and wonder what might they know I don't.


I dont know what COP shows uve bin watchin bit 9 out of 10 times in a home invassion or armed burglery your intruder is going to know where u are and you him. Remember 3am ur asleep and your woken up to glass breaking or your door bring kicked in, your half asleep at best adrenalized and phreaked out, your skill is reduced so is your reaction time. Most likly your going to set up a defensive position in the master bedroom with the wife, and call the police. Your not going into your dark ass house to clear it, unless ur ERT or SWAT and even those guys wait for backup, 2s better than 1 and 5 is alot better, most response times are 4 to 8mins, thats all you have to hold them down for, NINE rounds of double oo buckshot will level a house or Apartment. Ive seen the after effects my two God Parrents are Orange county sherrifs on the ERT Team. Even with BIRDSHOT the humman body comes appart when hit, and if you grase someone in the leg or arm ur talkin 9 9mm balls commin at ur ass at 1500+fps with energy transfer in the hundreds of pounds per square inch!!

I dropped a 500lb brown bear 4 years ago walking in the woods before hybernation time for the bears. so there trying to fatten up. I came across him by total accident. Lucky for me my fathers from Kentucky and taught me at a young age to never go into the woods without a good shotgun, and that day i was carrying his Browning BPS 12 gauge with 3 rounds of oo buckshot, the gun was huge 28inch ribbed barrel bottom load bottom eject. I brought the SG to shoulder after trying to be loud as hell and backing off as fast as possible when he charged, i fired one shot hit him in the head and his butt dropped like a rock. Remember shot placement is the key to any incounter, id rather hit with a 22 then miss with a 44mag.

just my opion and most law inforcments to!

david wright

shootingbuff
08-31-2010, 20:46
I dont know what COP shows uve bin watchin bit 9 out of 10 times in a home invassion or armed burglery your intruder is going to know where u are and you him. Remember 3am ur asleep and your woken up to glass breaking or your door bring kicked in, your half asleep at best adrenalized and phreaked out, your skill is reduced so is your reaction time. Most likly your going to set up a defensive position in the master bedroom with the wife, and call the police. Your not going into your dark ass house to clear it, unless ur ERT or SWAT and even those guys wait for backup, 2s better than 1 and 5 is alot better, most response times are 4 to 8mins, thats all you have to hold them down for, NINE rounds of double oo buckshot will level a house or Apartment. Ive seen the after effects my two God Parrents are Orange county sherrifs on the ERT Team. Even with BIRDSHOT the humman body comes appart when hit, and if you grase someone in the leg or arm ur talkin 9 9mm balls commin at ur ass at 1500+fps with energy transfer in the hundreds of pounds per square inch!!

I dropped a 500lb brown bear 4 years ago walking in the woods before hybernation time for the bears. so there trying to fatten up. I came across him by total accident. Lucky for me my fathers from Kentucky and taught me at a young age to never go into the woods without a good shotgun, and that day i was carrying his Browning BPS 12 gauge with 3 rounds of oo buckshot, the gun was huge 28inch ribbed barrel bottom load bottom eject. I brought the SG to shoulder after trying to be loud as hell and backing off as fast as possible when he charged, i fired one shot hit him in the head and his butt dropped like a rock. Remember shot placement is the key to any incounter, id rather hit with a 22 then miss with a 44mag.

just my opion and most law inforcments to!

david wright

Just think ;-( I agreed with you too.... lol

BTW one of my jobs is to try and reverse negative trends. Hardest part about that is not collecting the data or the reports, but to change minds where they can not grasp a new concept or are to closed minded to accept change. That is why I try and put information out and let it be absorbed at the individual rate vs trying to get folks to buy into it. This site is nothing but comic relief for me.

shootingbuff
08-31-2010, 20:52
I reread your post and still don't know what you are referring to except for the racking the slide.




I dont know what COP shows uve bin watchin bit 9 out of 10 times in a home invassion or armed burglery your intruder is going to know where u are and you him. Remember 3am ur asleep and your woken up to glass breaking or your door bring kicked in, your half asleep at best adrenalized and phreaked out, your skill is reduced so is your reaction time. Most likly your going to set up a defensive position in the master bedroom with the wife, and call the police. Your not going into your dark ass house to clear it, unless ur ERT or SWAT and even those guys wait for backup, 2s better than 1 and 5 is alot better, most response times are 4 to 8mins, thats all you have to hold them down for, NINE rounds of double oo buckshot will level a house or Apartment. Ive seen the after effects my two God Parrents are Orange county sherrifs on the ERT Team. Even with BIRDSHOT the humman body comes appart when hit, and if you grase someone in the leg or arm ur talkin 9 9mm balls commin at ur ass at 1500+fps with energy transfer in the hundreds of pounds per square inch!!

I dropped a 500lb brown bear 4 years ago walking in the woods before hybernation time for the bears. so there trying to fatten up. I came across him by total accident. Lucky for me my fathers from Kentucky and taught me at a young age to never go into the woods without a good shotgun, and that day i was carrying his Browning BPS 12 gauge with 3 rounds of oo buckshot, the gun was huge 28inch ribbed barrel bottom load bottom eject. I brought the SG to shoulder after trying to be loud as hell and backing off as fast as possible when he charged, i fired one shot hit him in the head and his butt dropped like a rock. Remember shot placement is the key to any incounter, id rather hit with a 22 then miss with a 44mag.

just my opion and most law inforcments to!

david wright

david wright
08-31-2010, 20:57
I will overlook your comments about cop shows because I don't think you read my post except the part of raking the slide. which I disagree with and even if the BG did know where you were it could mean an instant attack as soon as the firearm is seen or suspected or laying in wait. Better to not have the BG know you are armed or where you are at.

If I am wrong pm me or we can discuss it here until we both get banned. I guess you also did not see where I suggest not to try clearing the house. Before assuming one needs to think about self and wonder what might they know I don't.

Dude was a joke, im not going to pump a round until i am going to shoot, i shot an intruder when i lived in Orlando. Mossberg 500 SP with BIRDSHOT at 10 foot, it tore a hole threw him big enough to put my fist threw. It was deemed a justifiable shooting siting THE CASTLE DOCTREN ACT. Justifiable HOMMICIDE. But i am new here and didnt want to upset you just shootin the breeze.

david wright

Robalero
09-01-2010, 04:53
CTfam,
I've been following this thread with great interest, so much good information being asked, and answered, albeit, not to everyone's satisfaction, but to answer your question of how you got stuck defending the handgun, perhaps your statement, "End of Discussion" had something to do with it.

This has indeed, turned out to be a find thread.

ET.
09-01-2010, 07:30
The 12 ga. shotgun is the king of HD. Here is the mathematical proof:

12 ga. X (6+1) 00y = K(HD)

[Where (6+1)= extended capacity, y=buckshot, K=king, HD=home defense]

We learned in school that if there is a formula for it, then it has to be factual.

:tongueout:

Restless28
09-01-2010, 08:13
CTfam,
I've been following this thread with great interest, so much good information being asked, and answered, albeit, not to everyone's satisfaction, but to answer your question of how you got stuck defending the handgun, perhaps your statement, "End of Discussion" had something to do with it.

This has indeed, turned out to be a find thread.

You beat me to it. :wavey:

GoBow
09-01-2010, 10:49
A shotgun is King of HD at my house...

In the end, isn't that all that matters?

David Armstrong
09-01-2010, 11:01
AFA the rack if one was intent on doing you harm you did a fine job of giving away your position.
Actually, if you think you are going through a house clearing drill and you are keeping your position secret you are probably mistaken, no matter what the weapon.
A SG can be a man-stopper, but first you have to hit and if you don't you better be good with your SG and hope the intruder you just shot "AT'is not armed or does not have the fight part of flight or fight.
I'm not sure how that changes based on the weapon chosen.
There is a lot of good information here to be considered and pondered. I would suggest that is what needs to happen.
Agreed. The more information a person has the more informed decision they can make. Sometimes it is hard to figure out what is good info and what is bad, but overall the process helps far more than it hurts, IMO.

David Armstrong
09-01-2010, 12:20
from CTfam:
Based on what?
As I said, actual experience. Investigations, training, doing this stuff for real, etc.
How is the handgun a bad choice? I don't think either are bad choices.
I didn't say it was a bad choice. I said "....for most civilians and the situations they face in HD, the handgun is not a particularly good choice."
Not sure I understand you here... By civilian I mean a responsible gun owner who has a decent understanding of his/her firearm but doesn't use one for a living.
That definition of civilian probably excludes the majority of them, as they do not have a decent understanding of their firearm. Most civilians have little training, and even most of them have no training beyond the basic familiarization.
I'm talking about my preferred platform based on the pros and cons.
No, you are discussing your preferred platform based on your personal experience, not the pros and cons of the platform itself. Thus your statement: "This is about US and OUR preferred weapon based on a lot of thought/experience." Pros and cons of platforms are independent of personal experience.
Don't take my opinion so personal.
I don't and haven't.
Now you're just being silly.
Nothing silly about it. You said, "If things get real crazy grab your favorite long gun." that would seem to indicate that you feel the handgun is OK as long as there isn't any trouble, but when there is trouble (things get real crazy) you should get the long gun.
Until the SHHH reaches that level I'm not going to cook dinner, shower, take a dump, watch tv, with my shotgun within arms reach.
Now it seems you are getting silly. The discussion is, based on OP, "What are the other advantages of the shotgun for HD?" I'm not aware of "it is easier to cook dinner with" being particualrly relevant to HD, and please tell me you are not one of those guys that thinks he needs to have a gun with him in the shower!

aippi
09-01-2010, 12:35
Thanks ET. I now have a new appriciation of math. Great formula.

Zell
09-01-2010, 13:39
A SG can be a man-stopper, but first you have to hit and if you don't you better be good with your SG and hope the intruder you just shot "AT'is not armed or does not have the fight part of flight or fight. That way you may have to answer to a jury vs St Peter at the Pearly Gates.

AFA the rack if one was intent on doing you harm you did a fine job of giving away your position.

Remember many aggencies have gone to the 5.56 becasue of overpenetration. Most anything else would be major overpen but most wouldn't use their hunting rifle unless it was the only thing they had.

Yep no one needs to be accurate with a SG at those encounter ranges someone mentioned where you will get no spread or maybe an inch or two. Pattern your SG from 5' to your furtherest distance you would be engauging in your home.

If a guy breaks into my home at 2 a.m. and I have one little inkling that he has a weapon, which I have to assume if he's breaking into my home in the middle of the night (I can also assume he'll use that weapon) I will shoot first and ask questions later in order to protect my family (wife and 3 kids).

Let's just say that what comes out of a SG has a larger spread than a handgun and because of that I'm more likely to hit the bad guy, close range or not in a HD situation, compared to shooting a skinny 9mm. Practice is key in using a SG for home defense, like a handgun. You need to know how to use it in self defense situations. Also, since the spread is larger than a HG I'm more likely to do at least some damage on the first shot (and more on the second) than I would trying to zero in on sweet spot in the dark under extreme adrenaline using a HG -- I may only wound the BG or miss him altogether using a HG then have to take another shot hoping I hit the guy while, again, in the dark and extremely stressful situation. Better chances of knocking the guy down with a SG on the first or second shots.

david wright
09-01-2010, 18:50
Stay on topic.

shootingbuff
09-01-2010, 20:03
Dude was a joke, im not going to pump a round until i am going to shoot, i shot an intruder when i lived in Orlando. Mossberg 500 SP with BIRDSHOT at 10 foot, it tore a hole threw him big enough to put my fist threw. It was deemed a justifiable shooting siting THE CASTLE DOCTREN ACT. Justifiable HOMMICIDE. But i am new here and didnt want to upset you just shootin the breeze.

david wright

I knew that :whistling::faint:OOPS

shootingbuff
09-01-2010, 20:26
Actually, if you think you are going through a house clearing drill and you are keeping your position secret you are probably mistaken, no matter what the weapon.

I'm not sure how that changes based on the weapon chosen.

Agreed. The more information a person has the more informed decision they can make. Sometimes it is hard to figure out what is good info and what is bad, but overall the process helps far more than it hurts,t IMO.



Ref to moving through the house we have already made the statement most of the time it is better to hole up. If not I am sure if the threat is not aware you are home or awake why give notice.

Ref more information I agree yet one should work through the information and their expected circumstances. One should be able to work through what better would work for them - I would hope. AFA bad information that should come to light, that said is the information bad, or just bad for a paticular set of circumstances for a given indiivdual?

shootingbuff
09-01-2010, 20:41
in ref to you better hit w/ a SG the statement was based on the shooters abilityto manage a SGs recoil, transitions which are harder to accomplish especially for those who don't shoot a SG much and or do not have training. I am not talking basic quals, I am talking about running the SG, however any shooting or training will be beneficial. Add in the fact one might have a recoil operated gun or also have to work the action on a pump and oh by the way a light mounted or not. Additionally if one is close it is easier to get inside the muzzle or use the length for leverage. If ther is any hesitation in getting the SG back into battery and on target the threat can take advantage of it. Take into account the pattern at room distance and for those that think a SG is an auomatic hit, well hope the intruder isn't willing to do harm Lets think of limp wristing, short stroking, and overloading the SG. Oh let's alo mention manual of arms in general - may not evcen get the shot off.

shootingbuff
09-01-2010, 20:47
The 12 ga. shotgun is the king of HD. Here is the mathematical proof:

12 ga. X (6+1) 00y = K(HD)

[Where (6+1)= extended capacity, y=buckshot, K=king, HD=home defense]

We learned in school that if there is a formula for it, then it has to be factual.

:tongueout:


One must be able to employ the firearm of choice and be proficient. The math looks good until it is applied. If one can run the gun all is good. If one can not it doesn't matter. A SG is the hardest gun to run, it is easy to point, but hard to run.

Glockster17
09-02-2010, 10:40
My plan is GLock 17 and surefire light to gather the kids and return to our master bedroom (our 'safe' room). Once there and the police called, the Mossy will come out and be pointed at the door. I can't carry a shotgun, work the flashlight, carry the kids, turn door knobs, ect. But it I have my G17 I can do all of that easier and fire with one hand if needed.

David Armstrong
09-02-2010, 11:15
If not I am sure if the threat is not aware you are home or awake why give notice.
You will probably give him notice whether you rack the slide or not, so go ahead and rack. That puts a round in the chamber for immediate use. And if it scares the guy off, so much the better.
Ref more information I agree yet one should work through the information and their expected circumstances. One should be able to work through what better would work for them - I would hope.
Sure, but that is the difference between discussing the pros and cons of a weapon platform and discussing the pros and cons of what works for the individual. The two are very different, as I pointed out earlier.

aippi
09-02-2010, 11:46
So what I am hearing from some is that they are going to go ahead and enter the main part of their home with no round in the Chamber instead of rack a round in before they leave their bedroom. Or they are going out onto their property with no round in the chamber and not rack a round till they confront the threat. They are doing this so as not give their postition away. Is this what you guys are saying?
I consider a weapon with no round in the chamber as an empty weapon. You are going to search for a threat with an empty weapon?

I really think that some of you do not even think about what you post on here. This is beyond what I would think a resonable person would even consider. If you read this mess about "Don't rack the shotgun as it gives your position away" on some other post or some guy told you that, I simply ask that you think about what it means. If you consider that you are now entering a dangerous situation with an empty weapon then you will see how your statement sounds.

Since in about every incident where someone enters your home at night, they messed up. They did not know you were home. So call out " I am armed" now Rack the shotgun and continue, " I am on the phone with the police". The next sound you hear will be the door slamming.

However, since you are saying you are going to be stealthy I assume you are going to sneak out there with your empty weapon and capture the guy. I don't want to capture the guy, I want him out of my home so there is no threat to me or my family. The police can try and find him. I pay them for that.

There are some replies to post that scare me sometimes. This mess about not racking the weapon and give your postion away is one of them. Yes, if your plan is to hide under the bed while they have their way in your home because they think no one is there, then maybe your plan to hide with no round in the chamber is OK. Don't know as I would never do that.

One of the very important reasons that the shotgun is King of HD is that racking sound.

Robalero
09-02-2010, 17:14
aippi,
As mentioned earlier, I have a Remington 1100 Tactical in a secure location. I can get to it within a second from within the bedroom and within no more than three seconds from the furthest part of my home. It has seven in the extended mag and one in the pipe. It does have the safety engaged, but as often as I shoot with it (and yes, clean it as well to make sure it is fully functional), that is a minor issue.

I do have two Glocks securely positioned and very well concealed around my home so if I am in a clear bind, I can use the pistol to find my way to my shotgun. Because in the end, for me, in my situation, living close to the border, a shotgun is indeed, KING!

CTfam
09-02-2010, 17:29
CTfam,
I've been following this thread with great interest, so much good information being asked, and answered, albeit, not to everyone's satisfaction, but to answer your question of how you got stuck defending the handgun, perhaps your statement, "End of Discussion" had something to do with it.

This has indeed, turned out to be a find thread.

Thanks! :wavey: Yes I was trying to ruffle a few feathers with a few comments and apparently it worked. I just wanted to discuss the pros and cons of each platform and see what came out on top. I was aking for myself since I still have a pump shotgun on "night duty" but was considering replacing it. Regardless of weapon choice I think the most important thing is training and having a plan. I have been going through a lot of scenarios in my head lately and thinking of what would "work" best if it went down. Thank you for contributing to the thread.

CTfam
09-02-2010, 17:42
I have a Remington 1100 Tactical in a secure location. I can get to it within a second from within the bedroom and within no more than three seconds from the furthest part of my home.

See that's the biggest issue for me. The handgun scores major points with accessibility. I can't always get to my shotgun stash spot. I live in a small house and it would take me longer than three seconds to get to my shotgun from the furthest part. Maybe 10 seconds or so? Hoping I don't have to pass the threat on the way. That's if I'm not outside in the garage tinkering with something... If you have time to grab it great. I would too. Home invasions can be very fast and violent.

To answer David Armstrong... YES I am one of those people who has a gun in the bathroom when I shower. Is that such an odd concept around here? :dunno:

shootingbuff
09-02-2010, 18:04
So what I am hearing from some is that they are going to go ahead and enter the main part of their home with no round in the Chamber instead of rack a round in before they leave their bedroom. Or they are going out onto their property with no round in the chamber and not rack a round till they confront the threat. They are doing this so as not give their postition away. Is this what you guys are saying?


That is not what I am saying - my pistols stay hot. Longarms do not have chambers loaded. If I have to chamber a round in them it will be as quietly as possible in the closet.

Robalero
09-02-2010, 18:05
CTfam,
And you know what buddy, if that is indeed what works for you, and what makes you comfortable because that is the biggest issue, then by all means, I am not going to try and convince you otherwise. But the original question was, Is the shotgun really King of Home Defense? For me, in my situation, in my geographic location, and with my mindset, yes, it is! This means I prefer to use a shotgun, but I know that it will not always be accessible, hence my well placed well hidden G21's around the house.

But would I rather face one or multiple home intruders with a G21 or my 12 Gauge Semi? For me there's no doubt, my 12 Gauge with 8 rounds of 00 Buckshot in a semiauto platform!

One more thing, when I had youngins in the house, I would never have had that 12 gauge hanging where it is now, even if it is well concealed, nor my Glocks well placed around the house. All that changed, when the wife and I became empty nesters.

shootingbuff
09-02-2010, 18:10
I really think that some of you do not even think about what you post on here. This is beyond what I would think a resonable person would even consider. If you read this mess about "Don't rack the shotgun as it gives your position away" on some other post or some guy told you that, I simply ask that you think about what it means. If you consider that you are now entering a dangerous situation with an empty weapon then you will see how your statement sounds.



So you see we are back to wanting to clear the house it appears and dismissing some would rather use a pistol.

It seems when one wants to make a point they are against clearing/checking the home but then they want to clear / check the home to prove their point. Sounds good to one who has not read through this thread. Punting means subconsciously you know you can not prove your point :supergrin:

shootingbuff
09-02-2010, 18:18
S
Since in about every incident where someone enters your home at night, they messed up. They did not know you were home. So call out " I am armed" now Rack the shotgun and continue, " I am on the phone with the police". The next sound you hear will be the door slamming.

However, since you are saying you are going to be stealthy I assume you are going to sneak out there with your empty weapon and capture the guy. I don't want to capture the guy, I want him out of my home so there is no threat to me or my family. The police can try and find him. I pay them for that.

There are some replies to post that scare me sometimes. This mess about not racking the weapon and give your postion away is one of them. Yes, if your plan is to hide under the bed while they have their way in your home because they think no one is there, then maybe your plan to hide with no round in the chamber is OK. Don't know as I would never do that.

One of the very important reasons that the shotgun is King of HD is that racking sound.

I will make my presence known when it is advantages. Some folks just wont be put off and I am not going to expect it to happen. Prepare for the worst and hope for the best.

I don't want anyone in my home. If they are and they do not leave on their own then they will be wanting to escalate things and again I want to be in an advantages position

You really are not trying to understand someone else's view point are you? Says a lot. Kind of like folks not giving up the that the earth is flat.

shootingbuff
09-02-2010, 18:24
aippi,
As mentioned earlier, I have a Remington 1100 Tactical in a secure location. I can get to it within a second from within the bedroom and within no more than three seconds from the furthest part of my home. It has seven in the extended mag and one in the pipe. It does have the safety engaged, but as often as I shoot with it (and yes, clean it as well to make sure it is fully functional), that is a minor issue.

I do have two Glocks securely positioned and very well concealed around my home so if I am in a clear bind, I can use the pistol to find my way to my shotgun. Because in the end, for me, in my situation, living close to the border, a shotgun is indeed, KING!


Moved 13 months ago from SW TX. Kids thought I was a jailer ;-) A safe house was found close enough to be seen from my sons bedroom window.

etmccain
09-02-2010, 18:35
the intimidation factor of a shotgun alone is worth something....hearing a shotgun rack in the dark would scare off most your average B&E type people...and confronting someone with the business end of a 12 gauge is about as intimidating as it gets...but its just me, my wife, and the dog at my house and we all sleep upstairs so if someone does break in I'm just setting up shop at the top of the stairs and gonna let the scatter gun do its thing when a BG tries to come upstairs

the wife knows that if a SHTF scenario comes up and i grab the shotgun she needs to pull the pistol and mags out of her nightstand in case the shotgun were to run dry or jam

no rifle fire in the house for me, the loud crack of an AR is disorienting and potentially deafening to not only the BG but the good guys too...pistol fire and a shotgun thump isnt as loud as that sharp crack of an AR....just my $.02

shootingbuff
09-02-2010, 18:36
Tracking with your thought process. The second wk I moved into my last house the alarm had gone off. Someone had tried to come in my sons window - anther reason I wont use a SG to go through my house "if" I have to - shot placement not shot pattern. Alone or just with the wife it wouldn't be an issue
Stay safe

CTfam,
And you know what buddy, if that is indeed what works for you, and what makes you comfortable because that is the biggest issue, then by all means, I am not going to try and convince you otherwise. But the original question was, Is the shotgun really King of Home Defense? For me, in my situation, in my geographic location, and with my mindset, yes, it is! This means I prefer to use a shotgun, but I know that it will not always be accessible, hence my well placed well hidden G21's around the house.

But would I rather face one or multiple home intruders with a G21 or my 12 Gauge Semi? For me there's no doubt, my 12 Gauge with 8 rounds of 00 Buckshot in a semiauto platform!

One more thing, when I had youngins in the house, I would never have had that 12 gauge hanging where it is now, even if it is well concealed, nor my Glocks well placed around the house. All that changed, when the wife and I became empty nesters.

CTfam
09-02-2010, 19:26
the loud crack of an AR is disorienting and potentially deafening to not only the BG but the good guys too...pistol fire and a shotgun thump isnt as loud as that sharp crack of an AR....just my $.02

I'd like to know the db ratings for different weapons/calibers. It probably wouldn't factor into my decision but it's still interesting. I'd imagine any long gun shot indoors in the dark would shock the hell of you. Hoping adrenaline would allow you to work past it.

MrMurphy
09-02-2010, 19:47
Having fired 7.62 and 5.56 blanks indoors (a lot) when things are going on you generally don't even really notice it. Having talked to other guys who've been in indoor firefights with rifles and machine guns, yeah, it's not the first thing on your mind.

MD357
09-03-2010, 09:15
Having fired 7.62 and 5.56 blanks indoors (a lot) when things are going on you generally don't even really notice it. Having talked to other guys who've been in indoor firefights with rifles and machine guns, yeah, it's not the first thing on your mind.

Yep. There's a physiological reaction during fight or flight scenarios that allow for the brain to "ignore" huge fluctuations in dB. Unfortunately, the "damage" to your hearing, if significant, is still there. At least you'll be alive though. :cool:

aippi
09-03-2010, 11:08
Shooting buff - Not when the point of view is wrong head and is in an open forum and could wrongly influence someone.

Most every time that person in your house is not there to kill you, they are there to steal. Hearing you call out is enough to send him running. But you want to sneak out there with a weapon and create a situation that could end up with deadly force being used. This is wrong headed.

The objective here is to end any threat threat against you or your family. Yet, you will not even try the most simple way to do this. You want to confront someone when it is most often not even necessary. YOU ARE WRONG TO DO THIS FIRST.

If they don't leave and you have to go out there, do it. I may have to as response time to my rural location could be 20 minutes. I will not sit in my room for 20 minutes and I can't stay in the house if somone is out in my gun shop unless 911 tells me Deputies are a few minutes away.

Do what I sugest is the best first step. Can't make it any clearer then that and if you take the time to talk with any LEO they will tell you that most every time someone breaks in your home they messed up because they thought you were not home or they thought they could sneak around and not wake you. Anouncing your pressence, the fact you are armed and are on the phone with the police is enough to end this. THAT IS THE FACT OF THIS. A intelligent resonable person would realize this and conduct themself accordingly.

You read about some armed home invasion or hear about it on T.V and think this is common. It is not. Does it happen? Yes. That is why you have that shotgun and train to use it.

Single women are in a diffent situation. That guy may only be there because you are home and has evil on his mind. They can still do the same thing but make sure the door is locked and wait for the police. Anyone busting that door in should be welcomed with a load of 00 buck.

I will end my input on this subject as I am sure I have offered a correct response for reasonable people to understand. Others will just not acept it as they have some kind of misconception about B&E and other more dangerous ones about use of firearms. And yes -SHOTGUN IS KING OF HD

Rico567
09-03-2010, 16:51
There is a lot of good information here to be considered and pondered. I would suggest that is what needs to happen.

I've gone through this thread....well, maybe I haven't read some of the more quoted & repetitive stuff that closely, but I've read it. And I agree with what "shootingbuff" has said.
There have been a lot of opinions given, and obviously by a lot of knowledgeable people. But. YOU have a situation, and YOU must decide what works in that situation.

For me, and YMMV, I'm going to say something pretty contradictory. I believe that the shotgun is probably the best for home defense, because chances are, since we sleep on the second floor and no one but my wife & I are in the house, if I just take that 870 and pull a bead around the corner on the stairwell they HAVE to come up (while my wife is working the phone), that's best.

Is that what I'm going to do? Hell, no.

I have the shotguns....but I just don't shoot them much any more. What I shoot the most is pistols, and that's what I'm going to be using.....probably a G21 or G23, depending.

If there is a principle to be derived from this (and a number of people in this thread have already said it), when the balloon goes up, use what you train with.

etmccain
09-03-2010, 17:30
Yep. There's a physiological reaction during fight or flight scenarios that allow for the brain to "ignore" huge fluctuations in dB. Unfortunately, the "damage" to your hearing, if significant, is still there. At least you'll be alive though. :cool:

very good counter point to what I posted.....i hope to never find out how loud an AR is in my house

shootingbuff
09-03-2010, 18:42
Thank you for taking the time to respond. Also for the comment on the bottom which while cute I never stated it was not I don't think.

Now you can expect the same thing with your shop that no one is there to do harm or rob you.

Yep prepare for the worst. Also having lived next door to Mexico doesn't help me expecting the best of my fellow man or woman. Nor having my wife press charges on a thug with gang affiliation and just released. Or the 2 women trying to persuade elementary kids into a van that my daughter went to. Or the guy that I told to leave my property that was all jacked up, or even the guy selling stuff that tried to get information from my wife and push into the house. My wife is five foot nothing and told the guy he would die. I got home a few minutes later, jumped in the truck and went around my housing area and saw the guy at a house speaking to a woman I stopped in front of her house and he knewwho Iwas because he was asking about my then new truck. He started to leave and I went and told the lady what had happened with my wife. Or the guy that was outside my current on my patio at 0220 3 weeks ago. Now he did run. None of the others did and all have potintiel to come back. So, I'll keep my thoughts about hope while not hoping an intruder plans to do harm because we know johhny is just a misguided young man that never takes drugs or is whacked, or trying to make his bones etc. Just reflect on what you think I should do and apply itto your shop.

A SG can deliver a lot of hurt with one shot. A SG is harder to run than a pistol or rifle. Great leaps have been done with stocks, recoil pads, and ammo. That doesn't help manual of arms, poor techinque, ease of deployment, use of lights etc.

For the umptenth time use what you use best and get a warm and fuzzy over/with. Have a plan and rehearse it.







I will assume the reasonable person would not be in my house, however I will continue to prepare for the worst case while you roll the dice.



Shooting buff - Not when the point of view is wrong head and is in an open forum and could wrongly influence someone.

Most every time that person in your house is not there to kill you, they are there to steal. Hearing you call out is enough to send him running. But you want to sneak out there with a weapon and create a situation that could end up with deadly force being used. This is wrong headed.

The objective here is to end any threat threat against you or your family. Yet, you will not even try the most simple way to do this. You want to confront someone when it is most often not even necessary. YOU ARE WRONG TO DO THIS FIRST.

If they don't leave and you have to go out there, do it. I may have to as response time to my rural location could be 20 minutes. I will not sit in my room for 20 minutes and I can't stay in the house if somone is out in my gun shop unless 911 tells me Deputies are a few minutes away.

Do what I sugest is the best first step. Can't make it any clearer then that and if you take the time to talk with any LEO they will tell you that most every time someone breaks in your home they messed up because they thought you were not home or they thought they could sneak around and not wake you. Anouncing your pressence, the fact you are armed and are on the phone with the police is enough to end this. THAT IS THE FACT OF THIS. A intelligent resonable person would realize this and conduct themself accordingly.

You read about some armed home invasion or hear about it on T.V and think this is common. It is not. Does it happen? Yes. That is why you have that shotgun and train to use it.

Single women are in a diffent situation. That guy may only be there because you are home and has evil on his mind. They can still do the same thing but make sure the door is locked and wait for the police. Anyone busting that door in should be welcomed with a load of 00 buck.

I will end my input on this subject as I am sure I have offered a correct response for reasonable people to understand. Others will just not acept it as they have some kind of misconception about B&E and other more dangerous ones about use of firearms. And yes -SHOTGUN IS KING OF HD

shootingbuff
09-03-2010, 18:49
very good counter point to what I posted.....i hope to never find out how loud an AR is in my house


You know having a cheap pair of electronic ears may not only save your hearing but also give notice since they amplify sounds as well - given you are in a position to do so and have the time to slip them on.

Aceman
09-03-2010, 18:58
Dear aippi - great stuff (good to hear some sense in a sea of BS). Here is my approach:

The second I hear something suspicious:
#1 Get the guns

#2 wife takes handgun (HK USP 9mm w/ M3) and the phone and hunkers down on the 911

#3 I IMMEDIATELY rack the SG placinge a round in the barrel (00 low recoil buck) and proceed to load three more (total of 8 now). The light on the weapon goes ON.

#4 I'll grab the .45 situation/clothing permitting.

#4 I'm calling out and let the intruder(s) know i'm here, I'm armed, so is my wife, and the police have been called. Leave now or be shot.

#5 I'm calling out for the kids. They have been trained to answer. They also will be told there is a live weapon out. They know what to do.

#6 Then I'm finding and accounting for the children just like I have practiced. There are two shots I can't take while doing that.

If I see you and you aren't them....good luck. Better be faster and more accurate than me. I sincerely hope that the BG takes every opportunity to depart though, and I'd like to give it to him.

As I have said before. If the guy breaking in your house is triangulating your position based on the beam of light and the sound and taking you out, he's also got night vision, a supressed MP5, three more buddies, and blackhawk nearby.

At this point there is only one decision go/no go. You really don't want to be on the "go" end of the decision. And mostly anything that moves or makes a noise is in that situation, including two of our cats if they aren't careful.

But as I have always said - you still need to ID a target and DECIDE.

Aceman
09-03-2010, 19:15
A SG can be a man-stopper, but first you have to hit and if you don't you better be good with your SG and hope the intruder you just shot "AT'is not armed or does not have the fight part of flight or fight. That way you may have to answer to a jury vs St Peter at the Pearly Gates.

I don't think anybody said you don't have to aim or practice. That applies to ANY weapon. Moot point.



AFA the rack if one was intent on doing you harm you did a fine job of giving away your position.


Again - let's clear the BS. The rack alone will not strike fear into the hearts of all evil doers. But it gives the chicken ****s time to get out of dodge. And that is MOST of the people in your home uninvited. robbery vs Muder/assault period - no comparison. People mostly want your stuff.


Remember many aggencies have gone to the 5.56 becasue of overpenetration. Most anything else would be major overpen but most wouldn't use their hunting rifle unless it was the only thing they had.

Again - BS of the highest order. Show me ONE report that starts out or even says that 5.56 has been chosen as the indoor shooting caliber of choice because of the current weapons overpenetration. I'm not saying it isn't a consideration - but you make it sound like the number one. Here are some other reasons they are going to 5.56 vs whatever:
- rising military experience with the platform
- cheaper ammo than larger calibers
- It's what the cool SWAT guys are using
- Some bodies friend got them a deal on them
- It's what all the "other" departments are doing

We can go on. The majority of reasons for 5.56 indoors is NOT reduction in over penetration. I can't remember ONE "Police in an indoor shootout accidently killed someone in the next room" report in my LIFE.

Anyone who has seriously shot anything will say exactly (more or less) this: anything that can STOP someone will overpenetrate. How many walls it goes through is not the point. ALL of them will go through more than one is they funciton within the parameters of stopping reliability 9mm, .40, .45, 38+p, 12g, .223, and of course, the very over-kill .308.

shootingbuff
09-03-2010, 20:10
Ref aim and practice with any wpn - you are correct and I never said otherwise - what I stated was A SG is harder to run.

Yes it does give the prson time to run but so should knowing you are home or how about a reasonable person wouldn't be there and you are not a mind reader. However calling out to your children may give one time to grab and run. I don't know and I doubt anyone would. Thanks for sharing your views.

AFA 5.56 I have not kept up with it for the last couple of yrs but at that time there were forces going to carbines for less penatration. The ones wanting to aded a rifle because of body armor more than not had already if one wanted to add that in.

AFA anything that will kill will over penetrate well I disagree as you stated your comment - it should be has the potential to over penetrate. 22s kill but I would bet stay inside the body, one of the noted best 9x19 round sfed +p+ 115 jhp is know to only travel 10-11 inches frag and expand .5-.7 as doesw the 357 Mag in a 125gr flavor, 380s with a jhp that expands, buckshot, 223 TAP"& JHP/SP" is designed to not over penetrate and I am sure there are more - so has the potential to over
penatre. Oh all of the Glaser and BAT rounds as well.

AFA a LEO killing someone it doesn't matter the liability is there and politicians etc.

Appreciate your comments though.


I don't think anybody said you don't have to aim or practice. That applies to ANY weapon. Moot point.





Again - let's clear the BS. The rack alone will not strike fear into the hearts of all evil doers. But it gives the chicken ****s time to get out of dodge. And that is MOST of the people in your home uninvited. robbery vs Muder/assault period - no comparison. People mostly want your stuff.




Again - BS of the highest order. Show me ONE report that starts out or even says that 5.56 has been chosen as the indoor shooting caliber of choice because of the current weapons overpenetration. I'm not saying it isn't a consideration - but you make it sound like the number one. Here are some other reasons they are going to 5.56 vs whatever:
- rising military experience with the platform
- cheaper ammo than larger calibers
- It's what the cool SWAT guys are using
- Some bodies friend got them a deal on them
- It's what all the "other" departments are doing

We can go on. The majority of reasons for 5.56 indoors is NOT reduction in over penetration. I can't remember ONE "Police in an indoor shootout accidently killed someone in the next room" report in my LIFE.

Anyone who has seriously shot anything will say exactly (more or less) this: anything that can STOP someone will overpenetrate. How many walls it goes through is not the point. ALL of them will go through more than one is they funciton within the parameters of stopping reliability 9mm, .40, .45, 38+p, 12g, .223, and of course, the very over-kill .308.

mixflip
09-03-2010, 20:34
Is the shotgun king of home defese?

Yes it is.

Aceman
09-03-2010, 21:49
Yes it is.

So why did you wait until now to definitively answer the question...could have saved us 6 pages of grief!

mixflip
09-03-2010, 23:23
Lol...:rofl:

hikerpaddler
09-04-2010, 07:14
No, they're not. Merely one of several options. In the hands of a novice or one otherwise untrained with firearms, shotguns be the most effective. True proficiency with a handgun or rifle takes a bit more training and experience.I'm falling out of love with the shotgun... Talk to me here guys. It's pretty well known that buck shot and slugs are the best man stopping rounds available but that's pretty much all the shotgun has to offer. Incredible stopping power at close range. What are the other advantages of the shotgun for HD?

They are low capacity and slow to reload. Large and harder to maneuver than a pistol or carbine. Takes two hands to operate and are more expensive to train with. Most people that I know shoot more pistol/rifle at the range yet have their trusty pump loaded up for night duty. I think this is a mistake. I am guilty of this as well... That's why I am switching my HD primary to the same gun I carry and shoot every week. The Glock 17 with a TLR-1 attached. If there is a real SHTF event or home invasion I will go for the AK. Smaller, lighter, faster follow up shots, more range, can defeat armor, etc. Just my opinion.

I am not trying to trash the shotgun here. Just thinking out loud... Am I making a mistake putting the pump in the safe?

Please discuss.

In what situation would a shotgun be better than a pistol or rifle?

CTfam
09-04-2010, 08:21
No, they're not. Merely one of several options. In the hands of a novice or one otherwise untrained with firearms, shotguns be the most effective. True proficiency with a handgun or rifle takes a bit more training and experience.

Again, my experience with bringing new shooters to the range shows me the shotgun is harder to run. The controls are simple (to us) but you still have to "run" the gun. Pump it, make sure the safety is off, "hey why wont this thing pump?" Hit the slide release. The handgun is more a "set and forget" weapon. Just rack a round and your good to go for 15 rounds or so. Not much can go wrong with a Glock or a revolver for the new shooter. If the SHTF I wouldn't hand a newb the pump.

CTfam
09-04-2010, 08:22
All this talk about shotties is making me want to take the boom stick out for some range time! :cool:

david wright
09-04-2010, 09:01
Its like I always tell people, hope for the best. but dam sure prepare for the worst. Ive been carring a firearm since 1993, and have had friends say, "why are u carring your gun, were only going to the movies?" I always reply, id rather carry this gun the rest of my life and not have to use it, then need it and not have it!!

david wright

David Armstrong
09-04-2010, 12:45
To answer David Armstrong... YES I am one of those people who has a gun in the bathroom when I shower. Is that such an odd concept around here?
I would suggest "yes". I would also suggest if your home is so unsafe that you think you need to keep a gun with you while you shower that having a gun with you while you shower is not the solution to the real problem.
I just wanted to discuss the pros and cons of each platform and see what came out on top.
And I think it has been shown that as far as platforms go long guns come out on top in general. Where the disconnect seems to come is confusing pros and cons of platforms with pros and cons of platforms for individuals.

David Armstrong
09-04-2010, 12:53
So you see we are back to wanting to clear the house it appears and dismissing some would rather use a pistol.

It has nothing to do with wanting to clear a house, it is more of a "do you really understand what you are saying" issue. Racking probably won't give you away any more than all the other things you are doing will give you away, so go ahead and rack and get it over with. Unless you think leaving the chamber empty in a situation like that is a good idea. One might be able to support any position given their situation. But to blithely toss around cliches without considering the impact is a bit problematic, IMO.
Prepare for the worst and hope for the best.
I don't want anyone in my home. If they are and they do not leave on their own then they will be wanting to escalate things and again I want to be in an advantages position
I'll bite. In a worst-case scenario how does clearing a house give more advantage over maintaining a defensive position where you control the entrance points and dominate the cover and weaponry?

Ebb27
09-04-2010, 13:01
If you feel better defending your home with handgun, fine more power to you.


Personally I would much rather be looking down the barrel of a 12ga shotgun loaded with 00 buckshot at the badguy.


If I put my shot on target it will deliver nine .30 caliber projectiles at around 1300 FPS.


And that's just one shot.



I know I damn sure wouldn't want to be facing down somebody with a shotgun if all I had was a pistol.

David Armstrong
09-04-2010, 13:08
A note for everyone on the penetration issue. We hear this nonsense a lot. It is much like the "my caliber is better than your caliber" nonsense. you can tailor the results to whatever you want with proper ammo selection. It is not a matter of 5.56 vs. 12 guage vs. 9mm vs .308 vs whatever. It is a matter of ammo selection. Some 5.56 will pentrate far more than some 12 gauge will, some 12 will penetrate more than some 9mm will, and so on.

Ebb27
09-04-2010, 13:24
I honestly can't think of a shot I would take with any gun if I felt that innocents were in the line of fire either from over-penetration or a miss.

Knowing your background is vital information regardless of platform or caliber.

shootingbuff
09-04-2010, 15:38
And I think it has been shown that as far as platforms go long guns come out on top in general. Where the disconnect seems to come is confusing pros and cons of platforms with pros and cons of platforms for individuals.

I'll bite on that comment.

The ease of use, a second hand, faster deployment, could be a much easier manual of arms, faster reloading vs more hurt per hit, vs harder everything else.

Just think I started out stating the SG is my favourite platform :wow: :supergrin: Anyway to each there own eh?

shootingbuff
09-04-2010, 15:49
It has nothing to do with wanting to clear a house, it is more of a "do you really understand what you are saying" issue. Racking probably won't give you away any more than all the other things you are doing will give you away, so go ahead and rack and get it over with. Unless you think leaving the chamber empty in a situation like that is a good idea. One might be able to support any position given their situation. But to blithely toss around cliches without considering the impact is a bit problematic, IMO.

I'll bite. In a worst-case scenario how does clearing a house give more advantage over maintaining a defensive position where you control the entrance points and dominate the cover and weaponry?

I stated my handgun is always loaded so your point well isn't.

Because as someone stated the threat knows where you are then don't be ;-)

Actually I would rather be out gathering the rest of the family and away from where they are in the hopes if things go bad they would not be directly involved or harmed. I did state the best thing to do was hole up so what is with the snips and asking about something that I have already made comment on? It is advantages to be in a defensive position-or shoulod be, Is some one punting lol We could play what ifs and word questions in a way to allude to something that is not while trying to dismiss what one has stated, but why?

Take care

shootingbuff
09-04-2010, 15:50
I honestly can't think of a shot I would take with any gun if I felt that innocents were in the line of fire either from over-penetration or a miss.

Knowing your background is vital information regardless of platform or caliber.


Would have to be a worse case situation for sure. That saqid if I had to I would want the best chance to pull it off.

shootingbuff
09-04-2010, 15:52
A note for everyone on the penetration issue. We hear this nonsense a lot. It is much like the "my caliber is better than your caliber" nonsense. you can tailor the results to whatever you want with proper ammo selection. It is not a matter of 5.56 vs. 12 guage vs. 9mm vs .308 vs whatever. It is a matter of ammo selection. Some 5.56 will pentrate far more than some 12 gauge will, some 12 will penetrate more than some 9mm will, and so on.


Good point, See we do agree

David Armstrong
09-04-2010, 20:43
The ease of use, a second hand, faster deployment, could be a much easier manual of arms, faster reloading vs more hurt per hit, vs harder everything else.

A handgun is not easier to use than a shotgun. There is a reason novices have been started out on light shotguns and rifles for most of a century. The handgun is certainly not faster to deploy accurately for most folks. Manual of arms with the shotgun is much easier than many autoloaders. The handgun is not faster to reload, it is slower unless you are carrying an autoloader and have a spare magazine with you.
Anyway to each there own eh?
Yes, but again that has nothing to do with discussion of platforms.
I stated my handgun is always loaded so your point well isn't.
That has nothing to do with the point aippi, I, and others have made, which is the issue of any alleged advantage to not racking the SG when grabbed for HD purposes.
It is advantages to be in a defensive position-or shoulod be,
In which case the pros of the shotgun over the handgun become even greater for the typical user.

DHart
09-05-2010, 04:32
Each individual, each home, each family configuration, each defense situation can benefit more from one weapon platform than another. It's ridiculous to try to make any kind of blanket prescription for what works "best" for all potential situations.

Personally, I choose to be armed with several pistols and several shotguns 24/7 at my home. And they're all fully-loaded, including chambers, and immediately accessible to me wherever I am in the house, when I am in the house. I don't have kids to worry about.

All that said, I would much prefer an 8-shot 18" Winchester 1300 Defender 12 gauge loaded with 00 Buck to anything else. Each pull of the trigger is roughly equivalent to fully emptying a nine-shot nine mm pistol. One well-placed shot with the 00 Buck is likely to stop the aggressions of an intruder, two- or three- well placed shots almost guarantees stopping the aggression.

It's more difficult for me, under a high stress situation, to deliver such potent threat-stopping force with any pistol. Job ONE in defense is not getting shot, which means MOVING when the aggressor is armed. It's pretty difficult to aim precisely and land well-placed one-round shots with a pistol while moving to try to avoid getting shot. That said... the pistol definitely has it's place when the threat is immediately upon you, as you round a corner, for example. In that case, I would prefer the pistol! That's why I have both.

There definitely are those situations where there is enough of a noise to raise your concerns a little, but not so much to call 911. That's where the decision to wield in a long arm or a pistol can be more difficult to make.

If you have some space to work with, the shotgun is KING in my view.

If the quarters are tight and the possibility of a threat around any of numerous doorways or turns is high, and you choose to move about the house, then the pistol AND shotgun probably need to be implemented in tandem, if possible... perhaps with the shotgun slung over your shoulder with the pistol in your hand.

No easy answer to all situations. Know well the firearms you choose to implement and shoot with them as often as you can. And also run drills for yourself through your home, thinking through how you would respond to various situations in your house. I think the 12 gauge shotgun reigns supreme for home defense in many situations, but definitely needs tandem support from pistols as well for best preparedness.

soflasmg
09-05-2010, 05:16
I'll take a 16 inch AR w/ M193 over a shotgun any day.

B Coyote
09-05-2010, 07:20
Yes it is.

So why did you wait until now to definitively answer the question...could have saved us 6 pages of grief!

Win on both counts.

bc

shootingbuff
09-05-2010, 21:17
Nice post

Each individual, each home, each family configuration, each defense situation can benefit more from one weapon platform than another. It's ridiculous to try to make any kind of blanket prescription for what works "best" for all potential situations.

Personally, I choose to be armed with several pistols and several shotguns 24/7 at my home. And they're all fully-loaded, including chambers, and immediately accessible to me wherever I am in the house, when I am in the house. I don't have kids to worry about.

All that said, I would much prefer an 8-shot 18" Winchester 1300 Defender 12 gauge loaded with 00 Buck to anything else. Each pull of the trigger is roughly equivalent to fully emptying a nine-shot nine mm pistol. One well-placed shot with the 00 Buck is likely to stop the aggressions of an intruder, two- or three- well placed shots almost guarantees stopping the aggression.

It's more difficult for me, under a high stress situation, to deliver such potent threat-stopping force with any pistol. Job ONE in defense is not getting shot, which means MOVING when the aggressor is armed. It's pretty difficult to aim precisely and land well-placed one-round shots with a pistol while moving to try to avoid getting shot. That said... the pistol definitely has it's place when the threat is immediately upon you, as you round a corner, for example. In that case, I would prefer the pistol! That's why I have both.

There definitely are those situations where there is enough of a noise to raise your concerns a little, but not so much to call 911. That's where the decision to wield in a long arm or a pistol can be more difficult to make.

If you have some space to work with, the shotgun is KING in my view.

If the quarters are tight and the possibility of a threat around any of numerous doorways or turns is high, and you choose to move about the house, then the pistol AND shotgun probably need to be implemented in tandem, if possible... perhaps with the shotgun slung over your shoulder with the pistol in your hand.

No easy answer to all situations. Know well the firearms you choose to implement and shoot with them as often as you can. And also run drills for yourself through your home, thinking through how you would respond to various situations in your house. I think the 12 gauge shotgun reigns supreme for home defense in many situations, but definitely needs tandem support from pistols as well for best preparedness.

ranger1968
09-05-2010, 21:31
I posted this in another thread, but it applies here as well....

<TABLE class=tborder id=post15894890 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR vAlign=top><TD class=alt1 id=td_post_15894890 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #8c735a 1px solid">Understand, that the average shotgun will have, on average 5-8 rounds, whereas most auto pistols will have at least 10, and many of the rifles will have as many as 30 rounds.
Having said that, consider how much lead each gun is acutally throwing with each shot, and the velocity involved.

An AR-15 is tossing a projectile weighing 40-55 grains that is going 3,000 ish feet per second with each shot. At the closer ranges, the enhanced accuracy of the rifle is moot; the velocity of the round helps it penetrate and provides a certain amount of shock, but the projectile is tiny.....unless you are getting a head shot right up front, plan for follow-up shots.

A handgun will be tossing a chunk of lead ranging from 115 grains at 1,400 feet per second (9mm) to a projectile weighing 230 grains at 950 feet per second (.45 ACP) with a range of stuff in between- .40 at 165-180 grains 1,050 feet per second .38 spl -1,100 feet per second at 158 grains, etc (I know there are slower and faster rounds, and a few that are smaller or larger, but I am giving averages here)

While the mass of the projectiles is decent, and the weapons themselves are very easy to handle in close quareters, the velocities are only medium, and you should expect to make a few follow up shots before the subject is incapacitiated.

With a 12 shotgun, a 2- 3/3 inch 00 buckshot round is putting 9 60 grain projectiles down range at about 1,300 feet per second. That's 540 grains of lead going to the target every time the trigger is pulled....and all of those projectiles are hitting the target at the same time, causing a massive shock effect....540 grains is almost 11 rounds of .223, 3.5 rounds of .40, 2.5 rounds of .45...every time the trigger is pulled.
The velocity is comparable to the faster pistol rounds, but the amount of lead being put to the target is much, much greater...making the liklihood of having to make follow-up shots much less (In real life, most people shot center mass with a single 00 buck round are incapacitated immediately)

For sheer closer range, house-type distance performance, it's tough to beat the 12 gauge shotgun; even in a home-invasion type situation, a loaded 12 ga pump will be up to the task, and from a per-shot standpoint, will be more effective than the rifle or the hangun.

Every tool has a job; the rifle is excellent for accurate long distance shooting. The handgun is small, easily carried, and can be deployed easily from concelament.

For a job like home defense, inside the home, at typical hallway/room distances, when you need immediate 1 shot stops, there's nothing as good as the 12 gauge shotgun.
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shootingbuff
09-05-2010, 21:45
My point on raking the SG waas in ref to raking it and having the threat pee their pants and run. You continue to make it sound i would have an unloaded/chambered wpn.

AFA the not having anything to do with the platforms you are way off the mark, Lets also figure where and how the SG is to be used. Laying at hte top of the stairs, around the corner of the bed, over the top of the bed, around a weak side barricade etc?

SGs can be limp wristed, you hang to much on them, you tighten sidesaddles to tight you have them up against something or resting on something it can happen. A pump from a prone or using something for support is slower and awkward. These are things from a defensive position.

No one debates the hurt the SG can put on someone with one hit. I will not rely on the racking of a slide to drive/scare someone off, For many purposes the SG is to ackward from wt to length to recoil, to working the action from shot to shot. The use of a light or otherwise the need of a second hand is more awkward with a longarm and slower to employ one handed. Along with everything else I have stated.

The topic was SG King for HD. If we are tlaking joe the H.O there are many reasons why the SG would not be the best. You take Joe the shooter who runs a SG and understands its cons and has no family to gather up and can stay in a position that will not hinder his / her firing then it could be a better option. Tng for HD should be from your defensive position to where you want/need to engage. Most shot pattens will only be a couple to a few inches at best at those distances and a miss is a miss but a faster follow up shot could mean the difference.

So, the answer should be yes for some and no for others which has been more or less stated a few times.

Again I like the SG I have 5 freaking reloading presses and used to shoot the crap out of SGs up until I moved. I also recommend 20 gauges and even 410 over the 12 for the novice SG for anything.

I guess some are not comfortable with new ideas or having an open mind. Don't have to agree with anything I have stated nor do I expect any to - this was nothing more than putting up opposing ideas and I am tired of the pettiness this thread has got to.

peace out




A handgun is not easier to use than a shotgun. There is a reason novices have been started out on light shotguns and rifles for most of a century. The handgun is certainly not faster to deploy accurately for most folks. Manual of arms with the shotgun is much easier than many autoloaders. The handgun is not faster to reload, it is slower unless you are carrying an autoloader and have a spare magazine with you.

Yes, but again that has nothing to do with discussion of platforms.

That has nothing to do with the point aippi, I, and others have made, which is the issue of any alleged advantage to not racking the SG when grabbed for HD purposes.

In which case the pros of the shotgun over the handgun become even greater for the typical user.

mixflip
09-05-2010, 22:00
No matter how many times this subject gets regurgitated...its like crack in text form! I cant help but enjoy watching the drama unfold!!!:rofl:

shootingbuff
09-05-2010, 22:37
A lot of good information in your post though weak on accurate referenced cal, wts, and vel. Which really doesn't matter for its intended purpose. It also does not refer to carbines.

It takes into account hits and nothing else.

It also buys into one shot stops. Only guaranteed one shot stop is a locomotive.

One should always expect to deliveer followup shots regardless of the caliber/gauge.

Dependin on the hallway and gun.choke andammo used the entire payload may/may not find the threat = something else to be concerned about. This needs to be checked for each indivdual and ammo,choke and gun to be used.

Only get one shot from a barricaded position the SG has merrit on the PF, but if rifles are used as stated it opens up a whole new world in the form of PF. Though a well placed shot in the head would be good from either if I have the luxery of being barricade and firing down the hallway a carbine would be faster.

Home invasion I want speed and I don't carry a SG around with me.

OK now I am out of this thread


I posted this in another thread, but it applies here as well....

<table class="tborder" id="post15894890" width="100%" align="center" border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr valign="top"><td class="alt1" id="td_post_15894890" style="border-right: 1px solid rgb(140, 115, 90);">Understand, that the average shotgun will have, on average 5-8 rounds, whereas most auto pistols will have at least 10, and many of the rifles will have as many as 30 rounds.
Having said that, consider how much lead each gun is acutally throwing with each shot, and the velocity involved.

An AR-15 is tossing a projectile weighing 40-55 grains that is going 3,000 ish feet per second with each shot. At the closer ranges, the enhanced accuracy of the rifle is moot; the velocity of the round helps it penetrate and provides a certain amount of shock, but the projectile is tiny.....unless you are getting a head shot right up front, plan for follow-up shots.

A handgun will be tossing a chunk of lead ranging from 115 grains at 1,400 feet per second (9mm) to a projectile weighing 230 grains at 950 feet per second (.45 ACP) with a range of stuff in between- .40 at 165-180 grains 1,050 feet per second .38 spl -1,100 feet per second at 158 grains, etc (I know there are slower and faster rounds, and a few that are smaller or larger, but I am giving averages here)

While the mass of the projectiles is decent, and the weapons themselves are very easy to handle in close quareters, the velocities are only medium, and you should expect to make a few follow up shots before the subject is incapacitiated.

With a 12 shotgun, a 2- 3/3 inch 00 buckshot round is putting 9 60 grain projectiles down range at about 1,300 feet per second. That's 540 grains of lead going to the target every time the trigger is pulled....and all of those projectiles are hitting the target at the same time, causing a massive shock effect....540 grains is almost 11 rounds of .223, 3.5 rounds of .40, 2.5 rounds of .45...every time the trigger is pulled.
The velocity is comparable to the faster pistol rounds, but the amount of lead being put to the target is much, much greater...making the liklihood of having to make follow-up shots much less (In real life, most people shot center mass with a single 00 buck round are incapacitated immediately)

For sheer closer range, house-type distance performance, it's tough to beat the 12 gauge shotgun; even in a home-invasion type situation, a loaded 12 ga pump will be up to the task, and from a per-shot standpoint, will be more effective than the rifle or the hangun.

Every tool has a job; the rifle is excellent for accurate long distance shooting. The handgun is small, easily carried, and can be deployed easily from concelament.

For a job like home defense, inside the home, at typical hallway/room distances, when you need immediate 1 shot stops, there's nothing as good as the 12 gauge shotgun.
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DHart
09-06-2010, 02:36
One should always expect to deliveer followup shots regardless of the caliber/gauge.

Absolutely, even with 00 Buck at close range, stopping the threat ASAP is paramount to all else for your survival. I would be inclined to release several loads of 00 Buck as quickly and accurately as I possibly could, if I felt I had to shoot at all. I would not be inclined to fire once, then stop to check to see the results before firing again. It stands to reason that releasing two or three loads to an assailant as quickly and accurately as possible is sound, if you have to fire at all.

CTfam
09-06-2010, 15:42
Absolutely, even with 00 Buck at close range, stopping the threat ASAP is paramount to all else for your survival. I would be inclined to release several loads of 00 Buck as quickly and accurately as I possibly could, if I felt I had to shoot at all. I would not be inclined to fire once, then stop to check to see the results before firing again. It stands to reason that releasing two or three loads to an assailant as quickly and accurately as possible is sound, if you have to fire at all.

I agree with this. When you factor in the possibility that you can miss with a shotgun along with the fact that many criminals are heavily armed and travel in packs. The 5-8 rounds in a shotgun looks smaller and smaller. Sure the chances of an all out gun fight where everyone empties their weapons is borderline fantasy, it could happen. Many say "Well once that first round goes off the bad guys will start running." I'd rather not underestimate evil men with nothing to lose. I'd have a plan on how to deal with a car full of BGs.

DHart
09-06-2010, 16:04
When and if appropriate, this is my "go-to" Defense team. And in my household, they are KINGs of HD. They, along with a few pistols and an 870P, are never far from me when I'm at home. What I really like about the Defenders is the relatively short 18" barrel, one-piece mag tube (no extensions to fuss with), 8-shots before a reload, and the super quick action.

http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp59/zmonki/Shotguns%20and%20RIfles/DefenseTeam.jpg

http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp59/zmonki/Shotguns%20and%20RIfles/DefenseTeamRt.jpg

Eyescream
09-06-2010, 16:31
Those are sweet looking Winchesters.

I :hearts: my 1200.

DHart
09-07-2010, 01:09
Those are sweet looking Winchesters.

I :hearts: my 1200.

Eyescream... thanks... they're really great shotguns too!

Eyescream
09-07-2010, 08:05
Eyescream... thanks... they're really great shotguns too!

I held off on buying a shotgun until my friend (who I knew would get eyes for something else before too long) wanted to sell his 1200 Defender. I love it.

By any chance do you have an idea of where I could find out the date of manufacture by serial number?

DHart
09-07-2010, 10:53
I held off on buying a shotgun until my friend (who I knew would get eyes for something else before too long) wanted to sell his 1200 Defender. I love it.

By any chance do you have an idea of where I could find out the date of manufacture by serial number?

Hmmm... not sure. I'd start by doing Google searches until you find some Winchester related sites or sales sources and perhaps give them a call or e-mail to ask.

Eyescream
09-07-2010, 11:15
That was my first thought, too; but my Google-fu was weak. I may have to give them a call, since so far all I could find is that they were made between 1964 and 1984.

ET.
09-07-2010, 20:04
The title of this thread asked "Is the Shotgun really king of HD". It's turned into what is the best for HD. The shotgun is king for home defense because more homes are defended with a shotgun than any other weapon in America. Every country home in America has a shotgun. They don't all have handguns. Even a seventy year old granny has a double barrel by the door. And no, not all of the shotguns are "hard to run" pump action shotguns. I venture to say that there might be as many single shot & double shotguns still out there as pumps. My grand parents had a shotgun. My parents protect their home with a shotgun. All of my friends use shot guns. It is king. I don't care if someone thinks it might be too "this" or too "that". It is what it is. Handguns & ARs are a relatively new development in home defense. Shotguns have been in the home for generation after generation. Even Granny on "The Beverly Hill Billies" used a shotgun for defense...case closed.

David Armstrong
09-08-2010, 12:33
My point on raking the SG waas in ref to raking it and having the threat pee their pants and run. You continue to make it sound i would have an unloaded/chambered wpn.
Two completely different issues. If racking the gun makes the BG run away, that is a good thing. If you are exploring the house with an empty chamber, that is a bad thing.
AFA the not having anything to do with the platforms you are way off the mark, Lets also figure where and how the SG is to be used.
That is an individual issue, not a platform issue. Platforms comparisons are very simple. After one knows the platform, then one can get into the individual needs/use issues.
SGs can be limp wristed, you hang to much on them, you tighten sidesaddles to tight you have them up against something or resting on something it can happen. A pump from a prone or using something for support is slower and awkward. These are things from a defensive position.
Please don't blame the platform for personal problems. If you choose to hang stuff on the gun or get it out of spec that is not the fault of the gun. As for limp wrist, I bleieve that is true of rifles and pistols also. If you are slow and awkward with a pump, ge4t an autoloader or chose another platform that is more conducive to your individual needs.
The topic was SG King for HD. If we are tlaking joe the H.O there are many reasons why the SG would not be the best.
Well, one is certainly welcome to their opinion. I will simply point out that almost across the board, given the typical low to untrained person the shotgun is the recommmended platform for home defense by professionals in the field.
I guess some are not comfortable with new ideas or having an open mind.
An open mind doesn't mean one needs to give up rational thought and logic. As for new ideas, the argument of what is the best wepon for generalized home defense is not new, it has been going on for decades, with pretty much the same results.

vafish
09-08-2010, 13:34
.... Even Granny on "The Beverly Hill Billies" used a shotgun for defense...case closed.
If it's good enough for Granny it's good enough for me! :rofl:

She probably has better tactics then most of GT anyways.

B Coyote
09-08-2010, 13:42
If it's good enough for Granny it's good enough for me! :rofl:

She probably has better tactics then most of GT anyways.

:whistling: The scary thing is you're probably right.

bc

USMC06
09-09-2010, 23:11
The shotgun has more initial fire power then an asault rifle or SMG. It is a close quarters weapon. HD is close quarters. There is no close quarters weapon with more fire power then a shotgun so yes it is King and even the King Kong of close quarters weapons.

A demonstration at the Metro Dade Police range proved this to me years ago. Two shooters each shooting through a metal frame which simluated a car window, with a backing a few feet behind to show hits.

Shooter #1 with a 20" 870 with 3 round extension and 8 12ga 2 3/4" 00 magnum 00 buckshot which has 12 pellets each. So 96 .32 caliber pellets.

Shooter #2 with MP-5 full auto SMG and 30 round mag.

Frames turned and both started shooting, the MP-5 guys was great on the trigger putting out three round burst. The guy on the shotgun was fantastic. The MP-5 finished a few milisconds before the 12ga but it was so close.

The point of the Demo was that the 12ga put 96 .32 caliber pellets through his frame in almost the same time the MP-5 SMG put 30 9mm through his. The 12ga provided three times the firepower.

Remember I said Initial fire power. Yes the MP-5 could be reloaded faster but the demo was to show that that if the threat is over reloading is not an issue.

Me, I opt for the most fire power I can bring to shoulder and that is a 12ga shotgun.

Agree! We often used the 870 in Vietnam on point when walking trails for the same reason. Initially putting three rounds down range on contact made a difference while everyone else took their respective positions.

CTfam
09-10-2010, 20:30
WOW!!! This thread is epic enough to be mentioned on shotgunworld! Bunch of Glock hatin weirdos! Screw you guys!!! :fist:


http://shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=230608&hilit=glocktalk

sheepman
09-11-2010, 15:15
Yes the shotgun is king, not my choice but it is the best one size fits all for those who do not train or shoot much. Not every one is a gun enthusiast or will spend the time or money to shoot and train. I personally prefer a handgun but it is what I shoot and train with, my shot gun is a barricade weapon.

CTfam
09-12-2010, 10:09
Yes the shotgun is king, not my choice but it is the best one size fits all for those who do not train or shoot much. Not every one is a gun enthusiast or will spend the time or money to shoot and train. I personally prefer a handgun but it is what I shoot and train with, my shot gun is a barricade weapon.

I have heard that many times in this thread... I totally disagree and I think the shotgun takes much more skill and training to master. My experience with new shooters went just like it did in this video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UauxacnFA4&feature=related

The low recoil rifle is what they made hits with and actually enjoyed shooting.

brausso
09-13-2010, 15:23
I was on another forum and read a real life incident that happened to a gentlemen and his family. There was a break in with two intruders in his house. He goes into great detail of what happened http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4158036#post4158036

Look for post number 93

Anyway, I don't know he would have come out alive if his weapon of choice wasn't a shotgun. It's a good read and really makes me think twice about focusing on my shotgun as my primary HD weapon

dc2integra
09-13-2010, 19:23
Thats some good reading material.And thats why the shotgun is king of HD

Ebb27
09-13-2010, 19:35
Good read!!!


No suprise though the man with the shotgun lived to tell the tale and the guys with pistols are pushing up daisies.

bfg1971
09-13-2010, 19:59
If I'm bunkered down then the SG is a no brainer. But if I have to be mobile then I'll use my glock 10mm. (If I had a short barrel AR I would use that) It has been said many times and still bears repeating, know the strengths and weaknesses of your weapons and pick the one that maximizes the strengths for the mission at hand. It is very hard to beat a shotgun that is defending a fatal funnel.

For certain applications it is certainly the king, but it does have weaknesses that in other applications do not make it the number one choice.

Johan Beer
09-13-2010, 20:34
I was on another forum and read a real life incident that happened to a gentlemen and his family. There was a break in with two intruders in his house. He goes into great detail of what happened http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4158036#post4158036

Look for post number 93

Anyway, I don't know he would have come out alive if his weapon of choice wasn't a shotgun. It's a good read and really makes me think twice about focusing on my shotgun as my primary HD weapon

Reads like a fantasy piece to me.

GlockPride
09-13-2010, 20:54
Reads like a fantasy piece to me.

I kinda thought the same. Not sure, but could have been.

Eyescream
09-13-2010, 23:34
For a lawyer, he writes like he's never heard of a paragraph.

brausso
09-14-2010, 01:33
Reads like a fantasy piece to me.

I kinda thought the same. Not sure, but could have been.

I didn't really get that impression at all. These kinds of things to happen to real people all the time. At some point, someone on GT needs to actually believe a story is true.

Anyway, my point was, had he chose another weapon, I'm not sure the outcome would have been the same. He went into detail about how he couldn't hear anything and sounded a little disoriented from the gunshots inside the home. Not that you don't have to aim with a shotgun, but he may not have been so lucky with a pistol under those circumstances.

spyder1969
09-14-2010, 07:52
The shotgun is NOT the KING of home defense!

YOU the person are KING of your home and therefore you better be ready to defend it. A shotgun is not going to control the situation if you are crapping your pants. It does not matter if you use a .22 or 12 gauge. Once rounds start popping and they are cracking passed someone's head they will most likely wanna get out of the AO.
The best defense starts with mental planning. Have a plan. What if? What would I do? What should my wife do?

Eyescream
09-14-2010, 07:57
I didn't really get that impression at all. These kinds of things to happen to real people all the time. At some point, someone on GT needs to actually believe a story is true.

Anyway, my point was, had he chose another weapon, I'm not sure the outcome would have been the same. He went into detail about how he couldn't hear anything and sounded a little disoriented from the gunshots inside the home. Not that you don't have to aim with a shotgun, but he may not have been so lucky with a pistol under those circumstances.

I'm not saying I don't believe him. It ought to be pretty easily verifiable at any rate.

El_Ron1
09-14-2010, 13:16
At some point, someone on GT needs to actually believe a story is true.
That kinda thinkin' can get you an Obama. At some point, someone needs to rediscover independent critical thinking ability.

brausso
09-14-2010, 13:25
That kinda thinkin' can get you an Obama. At some point, someone needs to rediscover independent critical thinking ability.

Questioning an elected official (especially the president) is a little different than someone sharing life experiences on the web my friend.

David Armstrong
09-14-2010, 14:32
from CTfam:
I have heard that many times in this thread... I totally disagree and I think the shotgun takes much more skill and training to master.
The shotgun is more difficult to master. But the point is that few people ever master a firearm. And for that majority of follks who are untrained or undertrained the shotgun has proven repeatedly to be the easiest to get up to an acceptable level of use.

CTfam
09-14-2010, 14:40
Whether the story is real or not is irrelevant. Fact is, these things do happen to everyday people. It's rare, but it happens. Sounds like a fully loaded pump would do just fine. Makes me think about the practicality of reloading off the side saddle and such... I would go for the lightest, shortest shotgun I could get for inside the home. If you wack the end of your barrel on something or get hung up on your tactical crap that could be the end of you.

I like reading stories like this... Gives you something to think about and apply to your home lay out. In my tiny house the bedroom to living room shootout would be a face to face situation. A long gun could be problematic.

TxGun
04-14-2011, 19:10
I will definitely take a short-barreled shotgun over a pistol or carbine for home defense.
I will definitely take an AR or AK style carbine over a pistol or shotgun for self defense on the move in the field.
I will definitely take a pistol over a carbine or shotgun for personal defense (CC) around town or traveling by car.

Point is, each has their optimum deployment scenario for me. Of course, at times, I would want them working in tandem. But I can also make any of them work, and in most cases work very well, doing either of the other jobs as the primary piece...(except, obviously, replacing the pistol for CC).

j-glock22
04-17-2011, 19:42
Another factor I haven't seen considered in this thread is the noise and flash made by a SG could be significantly more intense than a pistol or some rifles/carbines etc.... Can you handle that in the middle of the night when you're barely awake?
Just a thought...

aippi
04-17-2011, 19:55
j-glock - the guy who is a threat to your life is on the muzzle end of the shotgun and has to deal with the noise and flash not you. As for being barely awake........someone try to kill you and fear is better then any alarm clock. You will be wide awake.

A pox on whomever brought this mess of a thread back to life....................

F14Scott
04-17-2011, 20:34
Another factor I haven't seen considered in this thread is the noise and flash made by a SG could be significantly more intense than a pistol or some rifles/carbines etc.... Can you handle that in the middle of the night when you're barely awake?
Just a thought...

Auditory exclusion during stressful events:
http://www.atlanticsignal.com/mh3/pages/tpoae.html

glockmaniac
04-18-2011, 13:44
well,haven't seen this thread in awhile,but since its here I'll give my two cents.:cool: I used to be a carbine and rifle guy,but I changed my views over the years.While it's nice to have capacity and long range capability,I honestly prefer the power and versaitility I get with the shotgun.Since we are talking home defense, range isn't an issue.Think about the powerful rifles and machine guns in use in WW I and what did the germans want banned? Shotguns! Can you imagine being more afraid of a shotgun than a machinegun? That speaks for itself.

aippi
04-18-2011, 15:11
Glockmaniac - just proved the entire thread with History. And to add that the shotgun is still banned. It can only be used to guard prisoners. And yes, they were used in the Pacific in WW II but the Japs never signed anything on this issue. Germany, Italy and France did (yes, we fought the French in WW II) so shotguns were not used it that theater of operation.

Today shotguns are banned for use by most Law Enforcment all over Europe. Those cops can carry MP 5 sub machine guns but not shotguns. It the last SWAT training I attended at the South East Institute of Criminal Justice in Florida, we had some German and English Instructors visiting and training us. They freaked over our shotguns and took every chance to shoot them. The brit liked to have shoot every round we brought and would have but we lied and told him we were out of ammo.

A shotgun has more initial fire power then an assault rifle or SMG. I prove this in the thread "Gun Fight" on the web site www.aiptactical.com (http://www.aiptactical.com) That demonstration at Metro Dade Police range proved this to me years ago.

So to even ask if a shotgun should rule for any close quarters fight shows a complete lack of understand about this weapon. The answer is HELL YES.

m24shooter
04-18-2011, 15:28
Glockmaniac - just proved the entire thread with History. And to add that the shotgun is still banned. It can only be used to guard prisoners. And yes, they were used in the Pacific in WW II but the Japs never signed anything on this issue. Germany, Italy and France did (yes, we fought the French in WW II) so shotguns were not used it that theater of operation.
As part of the adoption of the Joint Service Shotgun the issue of shotgun legality with regard to the Laws of Armed Conflict/Laws Of War and specifically the Hague Accords was reviewed by the Army's JAG. It was the JAG's opinion that the shotgun and it's ammunition as typically used was NOT banned, and the use of both is legal in armed conflict.
It did not limit the shotgun to prisoner handling.

mongo356
04-18-2011, 15:31
glockmaniac-good point.

You always hear about the power of rifles over a handgun but when I see training they fire at least 2 and many times more than 2 shots per target....just like with a handgun.

Just something I have noticed.

aippi
04-18-2011, 16:05
M24shooter - thanks for the update. Old Jarheads like me tend not to keep current and a tune up on key points is always appricated. However, JAG issuing and opinion does not negate the issue unless we remove ourself from that accord. Did we do that? When? and where can I find this document removing us or stating the accord is no longer in effect. Like Ronnie said "Trust but Verify" and I trust you are correct but would like to see it.

What is the reasoning of shotguns only being used as breeching devices in our current conflicts. Since many of these are in urban settings it seems they should be the weapon of choice. What am I missing?

The high cap 15 rd hand gun puts 15 rounds of 9mm or what ever the caliber of the weapon is in to a threat with 15 pulls of the trigger. If loaded with 3" 00 buck, the 12 ga puts 15 .32 caliber rounds in the threat with one pull of the trigger. Am is misunderstand the term "fire power"?

If ones life is in serious jeapordy would one not want to bring as much firepower to the fight as possible? Does it matter if it is an LEO on duty or a guy like me in my home or yard? The issue is to be alive after the incident. One should take what ever steps are necessary to assure that is the case and that starts with the selection of the weapon you will defend yourself with.

m24shooter
04-18-2011, 17:07
M24shooter - thanks for the update. Old Jarheads like me tend not to keep current and a tune up on key points is always appricated. However, JAG issuing and opinion does not negate the issue unless we remove ourself from that accord. Did we do that? When?
Actually, we didn't sign them or at least all of them. We didn't sign the 1899 Accords, but we did sign the 1907. We and several other powers wanted a uninanimous binding agreement, which was balked on by several other nations. We've always conducted ourselves in accordance with them, we just haven't been signatories. We follow the Laws of War and Armed Conflict, but several of the international agreements have never been ratified by us as I understand it.
The 1899 Accord is the widely known "dum dum" prohibition. We did not sign this agreement. The 1907 Accord deals with superfluous or unnecessary suffering clause, which the US has decided to adhere to.
There were also agreements made in the 80s and 90s relevant to the LOAC/LOW.
and where can I find this document removing us or stating the accord is no longer in effect. Like Ronnie said "Trust but Verify" and I trust you are correct but would like to see it.
In regard to the JAG opinion, it was written by W. Hays Parks (who I believe is actually a retired Marine reservist), Office of The Judge Advocate General, U.S. Army. It is from 1997. It was coordinated with the other services, Army and DOD General Counsel, the Department of State all of whom concurred. It "reaffirms the legality of the shotgun for combat use" on the two arguments of 1.) does a weapon capable of inflicting multiple wounds cause superfluous injury, and 2.) does lead 00 buckshot expand or flatten easily?
The JAG holding states that in answer to the first question it does not do so anymore than an artillery shell or other fragmentation weapon such as a grenade or mine. It refutes the second question in saying that for the last 40 years (about) the US has not used pure lead buckshot, but has instead used lead antimony alloy shot. This however was not selected for legal reasons but rather than as I'm sure you know, lead shot deforms during setback and as the shot load moves through the bore. This results in poor external ballistics, patterning, and pattern uniformity. In answer specifically to the flattening/deforming argument the holding states that buckshot does not mushroom in the same way that dum dum rounds do, basing this on the "easily" wording in the legal prohibition. Because of the use of that word, it is implied that some deformation of any projectile is expected and the argument becomes if the deformation increases the wounding effect and how easily it deforms. Because of the use of antimony to reduce deformation, it is the JAG's position that the projectiles do not significantly change or deform.
The legal review closes by saying that "the combat shotgun and its lead-and-antimony buckshot (or shot) ammunition are consistent with the law of war obligations of the United States."
What is the reasoning of shotguns only being used as breeching devices in our current conflicts. Since many of these are in urban settings it seems they should be the weapon of choice. What am I missing?
Look for some of the articles by Robert Clements for INFANTRY Magazine. He has a couple of them on the modern/current role of the shotgun in the Army specifically and the .mil in general. You can find them at his website:
www.pro-patria.us (http://www.pro-patria.us)
He's a retired NCO from the 10th MTN and has written a lot of the pubs on Army shotguns.
The short version is that the shotgun is a specialized weapon that has limited ammunition capacity, slow and awkward reloading, limited range, and large size. It is great as you say in close, but once that troop steps out on a street and back onto a 200-300 yard battlefield he is at a very strong disadvantage. So this takes the troop out of the equation or forces him to carry two primary weapons.
The high cap 15 rd hand gun puts 15 rounds of 9mm or what ever the caliber of the weapon is in to a threat with 15 pulls of the trigger. If loaded with 3" 00 buck, the 12 ga puts 15 .32 caliber rounds in the threat with one pull of the trigger. Am is misunderstand the term "fire power"?
No, I don't think anybody is making the firepower argument against the shotgun. When dealing with an unarmored opponent in close, there is nothing that will do as much damage as a shotgun. In the context of the HD argument there is no comparison. As I said, the problem comes in when you get outside of that envelope which is very easy to do in a .mil setting.
If ones life is in serious jeapordy would one not want to bring as much firepower to the fight as possible? Does it matter if it is an LEO on duty or a guy like me in my home or yard? The issue is to be alive after the incident. One should take what ever steps are necessary to assure that is the case and that starts with the selection of the weapon you will defend yourself with.
Agreed. Regardless of whether it is a homeowner, LEO, or Soldier the immediate goal is the same: to stop the threat RFN.

aippi
04-18-2011, 18:31
M24shooter - that may be one of the best replies I have read on a gun blog. I don't blow smoke up anyones six and I am slow to compliment so please take this as intended. It addresses my questions with facts and backs up the reply with information I can read. I will check out that thread as I have been remiss in keeping up with things. To many guys spout opinion on these blogs and it is refreashing to get a knowledgeable response.

And to keep on topic the Shotgun has served as HD since the days of settlers. That SxS hanging on the wall was not for show and that image has become part of Americana for a reason. I grew up seeing shotguns leaning in corners or on the wall of most homes I can remember visting as a boy. It was just as much a part of the fixings in a home in the south where I grew up as a couch was. Nothing has changed except some of the shotguns, but they are still shotguns.

m24shooter
04-18-2011, 19:31
Thank you J.D. and I certainly do appreciate that.
Shotguns were a part of my home growing up, and there were times of the year that you didn't go outside without one. My first firearm was a shotgun, and I've always had them. I shoot rifles and carbines well, but I enjoy shotguns the most.
If you can run one well, up close there is no equal.

maestro pistolero
04-19-2011, 00:56
All one has to do is imagine being shot in a 3-5 inch circle on your chest with a .32 by nine people at once to know the devastating power of a shotgun. For taking up a position in a house, I don't think you can beat it with anything.

For moving through doorways and around corners, not so much. It's tricky to keep a shotgun simultaneously at the ready and maintain good weapon retention while on the move through a house, even for professionals. I think a handgun with first-tier defensive loads takes the field here. Both is even better if you have good sling technique and have mastered transitioning from one to the other.

Big Bird
04-19-2011, 08:53
There is no substitute for training. Period. Whether we are talking shotguns, pistols, grenades, or mortars. If you own a pistol and have never had any formal training I'll guarantee you are not half as good as you think you are. I don't care if you shoot IPSC, bowling pins, GSSF etc. Likewise, if you are an AA shooter on the Registered Sporing Clays circuit--you don't know squat about shooting a shotgun in a self defense scenario.

So can we PLEASE take out this ridiculous discussion about people not getting training because it really doesn't matter what a citizen selects as his weapon of choice because he still lacks some basic skill sets. Its like learning to play golf by yourself--you can go buy a set of the most expensive custom fit PING irons you can afford and you will play no better than if you went to Walmart and bought your clubs.

Second, when Jeff Cooper was alive he told me he could take your average person and make him reasonably competent with a shotgun in a couple of days. COL Cooper considered the pistol an experts weapon and also an inferior choice for most any lethal encounter. The ONLY redeeming quality of the pistol is it is compact and convenient. It is NOT a reliable man stopper.

12 gauge double OO buck is THE gold standard of close range fight stopping killing power. There is NOTHING else that even comes close. Period.

All guns require shot placement to be effective. A pistol is a helluva lot harder to shoot as accurately as a shotgun. The sight radius alone makes the shotgun superior in this regard.

People who complain about recoil in a shotgun have no training. If you think that shotgun recoil is unmanageable you have never held a shotgun properly. My 7 year old daughter got her first gun for Xmas this year--a 20 gauge 870 youth model. By her second outing with the gun I had her begging to shoot more (we only bright about 35 shells) She weighs all of 70 lbs. I have taught 110lb women to shoot skeet using 12 gauge o/u guns and they would routinely shoot 500+ shells in a weekend with no ill effects. If you have trouble managing recoil on a shotgun you will have trouble managing recoil in a handgun. Because its all form and mechanics. And if you don't have any training with handguns you are no better off. Again, if you have trouble managing recoil from standard 2 3/4 shotgun shells you need some coaching/training. Because something is wrong.

Three shots from a 12 gauge with 00 Buck puts out as many projectiles as an entire 30 rd magazine from M4 carbine. And most pumps will have 2 or 3 shells left in the tube.
You only need all those rounds in a 30 round magazine for home defense if you miss alot.

44terryberry
04-19-2011, 15:32
But, the mere sight of a 12 guage double would stop most in their tracks

chewybaca67
04-20-2011, 16:02
Twenty-one feet.

MrMurphy
04-22-2011, 00:47
M24 i've been away a bit, but you managed to condense everything just fine.

I had a kid who was thinking of going Security Forces (and then civilian LE) ask why we didn't use shotguns, as for a 500 man squadron we had maybe 10 shotguns and half a dozen qualified users. Same problem. In our unit we could literally move from a 2 yard engagement range to 30 to 500 in less than 10 feet (moving in and out of a building or two) or have to dominate a flightline or other wide open area. In our case (and for the majority of military situations) a shotgun is very handicapped, and i'm a carbine fan for the same reason (training).

Nothing particularly wrong with a good shotgun IF you understand the limitations of the weapon system and can work around them.

clh86
04-24-2011, 21:41
alot has been discussed here on the pros and cons of hd shotgun vs something else. i think one factor on a persons choice should the layout of your house. i would rather use my shotgun for hd but the house i live in now is to cramped up and to many corners that are right up in my face so to speak so i use a handgun. if my house was large enough to use the 870 then i would. living out in the sticks it will be a long time before le would show up.

sredish
04-28-2011, 19:31
My Sig 9mm (like the high cap) and a spare mag get me 15' to the 870 tactical (or the rifles), then I'm setup with however I feel I need to be.

I like my shotgun for close quarters work but always have a pistol with me as well. AR (and rifles in general) are nice and I like my SBR 6.8 (built for this purpose) but having the spread of a shotgun helps make sure the BG gets a hole through him when I'm still a little groggy or if the conditions make it hard to get good aim on 'em.