BB or Bird shot #2 for HD? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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sierrafast
08-28-2010, 16:55
Any comments or opinions?

supermanct
08-28-2010, 17:05
1) reduced recoil 00B , 2) 3 inch 1 buck (if you can find it) , 3) BB's
are my three pics

cj5mrt
08-28-2010, 17:10
The only reason to EVER use birdshot for home defense is if you are under attack by a covey of quail. Or maybe a rabid parrot.

Mike

sierrafast
08-28-2010, 18:27
The only reason to EVER use birdshot for home defense is if you are under attack by a covey of quail. Or maybe a rabid parrot.

Mike

LOL :rofl::rofl::rofl:
Serously, I came across this at Academy and wondering about it.
http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/shotshells/home-defense/home-defense-loads.aspx

El_Ron1
08-28-2010, 18:39
"Ultimate" is a dumb name for burgers, too.

David Armstrong
08-29-2010, 11:38
Use buckshot, preferably OO, reduced recoil if available. Avoid magnum loads/3" of any type. Birdshot of any type, as well as BB, is for hunting little critters. My opinions.

93GT
08-29-2010, 13:04
000 to #4 buckshot in 2 3/4" is my range of 12 guage given a choice. Right now my 870 is locked away with some nickel plated #4 ready to go and some more 00 buck right underneath it.

sierrafast
08-29-2010, 14:44
Thanks for the replies. I currently have my 870 loaded with 3"Buck shot 00. The 3" holds more pellets than the 2.75. Why should I avoid the 3"?

93GT
08-29-2010, 15:52
Thanks for the replies. I currently have my 870 loaded with 3"Buck shot 00. The 3" holds more pellets than the 2.75. Why should I avoid the 3"?

Unnecessary blast and recoil for limited performance. Just ask yourself if the juice is worth the squeeze when you go from 2 3/4" to 3". If you find that it is, then keep the three inch. For 0-15 yards I would rather have one extra shell, less noise/blinding flash, my hearing/eyesight, and sacrifice three pellets and 75 fps. Personal preference, YMMV.

David Armstrong
08-30-2010, 12:02
Thanks for the replies. I currently have my 870 loaded with 3"Buck shot 00. The 3" holds more pellets than the 2.75. Why should I avoid the 3"?

Little gain in performance with a fair decrease in usability. More recoil and blast, less magazine capacity and control.

Remjin
08-31-2010, 16:27
2 3/4" is plenty for in the house... 00 buck is probably best, though I keep a few slugs on the side saddle for just in case. I wouldn't go any smaller than #2 shot if you're really looking for more pellets. Reduced recoil 00 works great. A little less oomph for a pretty tight pattern at short ranges.

93GT
09-22-2010, 04:51
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=109958

You will notice the lead #4 buck averaged 14.5 inches of penetration and a pretty nasty wound cavity. At ranges of 3-15 yards for the furthest straight line distance, I feel pretty good about the little guys doing their job, if I do mine. The fact that they are plated probably contributes to penetration for my load.

Don't confuse your birdshot with buckshot when picking up shells.

Robalero
09-22-2010, 05:30
00 Buckshot, nothing less!

m24shooter
09-22-2010, 07:19
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=109958

You will notice the lead #4 buck averaged 14.5 inches of penetration and a pretty nasty wound cavity. At ranges of 3-15 yards for the furthest straight line distance, I feel pretty good about the little guys doing their job, if I do mine. The fact that they are plated probably contributes to penetration for my load.

Don't confuse your birdshot with buckshot when picking up shells.
Be advised that the gel used in that test is incorrectly calibrated and over-represents penetration by a range of up to 15%.

WoodenPlank
09-22-2010, 17:44
Bird shot is for birds, buckshot is for bad guys.

GlocknSpiehl
09-23-2010, 19:42
2.75" #4 Buckshot - 7+1 in my 1300 Defender. SHould give me enough time for the wife to load the SKS with the soft tip 7.62x39 rounds. Now I just need to get a sling/bandoleer for reloads!

ET.
09-23-2010, 21:40
My Rem 870 is loaded with Remington 00 reduced recoil buck shot. As stated above, birdshot is for birds. Buckshot is for bucks trying to rob you & rape your wife. Or worse yet...trying to rob your wife and rape you. :wow:

MrMurphy
09-24-2010, 09:09
What others have said.

I personally have no use for magnum shells as i'm not attempting to whack bears, geese or high altitude aircraft.

My brother is a big guy and not afraid of recoil (6'2, 240lb). He fired TWO 3" magnum shells from his Mossberg after i told him "not gonna be fun" and had enough.

Considering that for some years due to advice from a friend, he had loaded magnum turkey loads for HD, he now sees that my advice of low recoil 00 Buck was far wiser.

SDGlock23
09-25-2010, 19:03
I prefer No. 1 Buckshot. Still penetrates well for bad guys and it makes more holes. 00 Buck is easier to find though, and works well.

VZ1600
09-25-2010, 23:48
Neither.

maniDAR
09-25-2010, 23:49
The only reason to EVER use birdshot for home defense is if you are under attack by a covey of quail. Or maybe a rabid parrot.

Mike

:rofl::rofl::rofl::faint:

jp 19
09-26-2010, 21:27
Be advised that the gel used in that test is incorrectly calibrated and over-represents penetration by a range of up to 15%.

lets see here 14.5" - 15% = 12.325...

i dunno but, i still think that will do the trick.:dunno:

Folsom_Prison
09-26-2010, 21:30
Bird shot is for birds, buckshot is for bad guys.

I agree!!

Glock Influence
09-26-2010, 22:21
I used to have 2 3/4 00 Buck sometimes alternating with 1 0z slugs. Sometimes would keep the slugs as the 7th and 8th round in the shotgun. Because I thought if 5 or 6 00 buck didn't stop whatever I was shooting at maybe a slug will. But I now only have 00 Buck in the gun. Just makes more sense "for me" to have the slugs on the saddle holster on the gun and if I need the slug I will quickly load it.

RottnJP
09-26-2010, 23:19
I'm also in the #1 buck camp. .30 diameter vs. .33? Pretty damn close. 40 grains vs. 53.8 grains. Bit of a nod to the 00 buck. But wait- there's more! 00 buck gives you 9 pellets, but #1 stacks nicer and gives you 16 pellets. Multiply that out by the cross sectional area of the pellets, and #1 gives you a lot more wound area.

I have the winchester high brass #1's in my 590, and those are still 2.75" long, but have 20 pellets, copper plated, and gives nice tight patterns.

ETA: I once tried some 3" magnums when I had the weapon set up with a rear pistol grip & no shoulder stock... That stung my wrist a little more than I would call pleasant.

EATA: No birdshot for HD. #4 buck really is only adequate with hardened & plated shot. If standard #4 buck doesn't penetrate well enough to stop the fight right now, how effective do you think birdshot is going to be?

method
09-27-2010, 16:37
Granted I only tried one load, but the #1 buck I tried didn't pattern well out of either of my 12 gauges. At room distances it wouldn't make a difference, but at 15 yards, even Wolf 00, which neither of my guns much likes either, was tighter than what I saw with #1.

K.Kiser
10-01-2010, 20:57
I know this discussion has been covered many time here on Glock and in many other places for ages... I've been an advocate of birdshot for home defense, and despite seeing proof otherwise for years as to what it will do to flesh at 15', it's comical to hear Guy's on here say that it won't do it... The shot size is a function of intended distance.... I would'nt hunt deer @ 30 yards with 7.5 shot, nor would I try to shoot a dove with buckshot... The light shot doesn't carry it's energy far enough for big game hunting at big game range, and the large shot doesn't have a dense enough pattern for upland use - it's a function of distance... At 15 feet the velocity will be the same betwen the loads, and the weight of impacting lead will be the same and so will the outcome - dead bad guy... Here is a little back yard testing, try to look past the commentary and focus on the results... Please Guy's, some of ya'll need to do some more real world shooting before making of the comments...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOUyLz8Rsr8&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSOWpy5OKSc&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqcOn14TC0c&feature=related

sierrafast
10-01-2010, 22:43
I know this discussion has been covered many time here on Glock and in many other places for ages... I've been an advocate of birdshot for home defense, and despite seeing proof otherwise for years as to what it will do to flesh at 15', it's comical to hear Guy's on here say that it won't do it... The shot size is a function of intended distance.... I would'nt hunt deer @ 30 yards with 7.5 shot, nor would I try to shoot a dove with buckshot... The light shot doesn't carry it's energy far enough for big game hunting at big game range, and the large shot doesn't have a dense enough pattern for upland use - it's a function of distance... At 15 feet the velocity will be the same betwen the loads, and the weight of impacting lead will be the same and so will the outcome - dead bad guy... Here is a little back yard testing, try to look past the commentary and focus on the results... Please Guy's, some of ya'll need to do some more real world shooting before making of the comments...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOUyLz8Rsr8&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSOWpy5OKSc&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqcOn14TC0c&feature=related

Awesome find.

WoodenPlank
10-02-2010, 02:01
At 15 feet the velocity will be the same betwen the loads, and the weight of impacting lead will be the same and so will the outcome - dead bad guy... Here is a little back yard testing, try to look past the commentary and focus on the results... Please Guy's, some of ya'll need to do some more real world shooting before making of the comments...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOUyLz8Rsr8&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSOWpy5OKSc&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqcOn14TC0c&feature=related

I snipped your comment so that the most important line was first:
Yes, they may have the same weight, but this does NOT equate to the same damage. The individual pellets do not function as a single mass, they spread out and the column breaks up on impact. Bird shot pellets do not have enough mass to penetrate deeply into human tissue, and they certainly do not have enough mass to penetrate the sternum or ribs. Sure, you will end up with some pretty horrific wounds at the surface, but not much deeper than that.

I do not want the BG to bleed out, as was stated in one of your youtube links(Admittedly, I only skimmed the videos, didnt watch fully). If he bleeds out, that means he stayed in the fight for entirely too long before succumbing to his wounds. I want shot that is going to penetrate enough to hit major vital structures, and put his down RIGHT NOW - not a minute, or five minutes, or a half hour from now, after he has killed me and walked out... only to drop dead in the street later.
Also, a note: A pumpkin is not a suitable substitute for gelatin, or a human target. Not even close.

Check out the ShotgunWorld link from earlier, then account for what someone said in this thread about their gelatin mix over-represented penetration. Add to that the lack of clothing in front of the gelatin, and that ballistic gel only simulates MUSCLE tissue; it does not account for any kind of bone. Someone feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but I am pretty sure that your sternum and ribs are some of the tougher bones in the body, and theyre pretty damage resistant. Seems to me like they would go a long way in preventing bird shot from penetrating.

WHY risk using something that *MIGHT* work, but might not work (ok, realistically, is probably not gonna work unless youre lucky), when there are plenty of rounds available that WILL work.

As I said earlier in this thread: Birdshot is for birds, buckshot is for bad guys.

K.Kiser
10-02-2010, 08:32
WHY risk using something that *MIGHT* work, but might not work (ok, realistically, is probably not gonna work unless youre lucky), when there are plenty of rounds available that WILL work.

As I said earlier in this thread: Birdshot is for birds, buckshot is for bad guys.

Aside from the videos that I put up just for illustration, I have shot many animals with many different loads and it's really not a debate of whether it will or won't work at 15'... Birdshot is for birds @ 100' but trust this, it will do far more than "bird" size damage across a bedroom... The weee little feeble birdy shot blew holes through shhetrock then 1/2"-5/8" planks of wood ( last linked video) with ease, and I'll bet that is quite difficult feat to do with a dagger but I'll bet You could slam that same dagger through someones chest... Let Me say that knowing whats beyond Your target is paramaount no matter the round used, and If I have Buckshot in My gun at the time of emergency I'll use it without hesitation... If I have 1350 fps #7 shot in there I'll use it too and I will know from experience that a blast to the chest cavity at 4 steps away will have the same effect as if I shot him with My 3'' 00 buck, or My .338 ultra mag --- that adversary will pile up in his tracks... Remeber, were not discussing what to use at hunting distances, so the "birdshot is for birds" comments are easy and clever but nothing more... We're talking about distances nearly close enough for powder burns, and if I step outside the confines of My home then I'm surely going with some #4 buck because it's a function of distance... Grabs some different shells for Your scatter gun and some sacrificial material and go shooting...

taurusfan
10-02-2010, 11:32
What determines what is adequate. the majority of HD encounters are ended WOTHOUT a single wound being inflicted. The best load is the largest the user can wield accurately. That said, 4buck or managed recoil larger would be great choices.

As a sidenote. if you cant end the threat with any of the buckshot loads (robbers want to live) and feel you would need several hundred grns of lead to do so. Find a way to keep grizzly bears out of your house.

taurusfan
10-02-2010, 11:37
Aside from the videos that I put up just for illustration, I have shot many animals with many different loads and it's really not a debate of whether it will or won't work at 15'... Birdshot is for birds @ 100' but trust this, it will do far more than "bird" size damage across a bedroom... The weee little feeble birdy shot blew holes through shhetrock then 1/2"-5/8" planks of wood ( last linked video) with ease, and I'll bet that is quite difficult feat to do with a dagger but I'll bet You could slam that same dagger through someones chest... Let Me say that knowing whats beyond Your target is paramaount no matter the round used, and If I have Buckshot in My gun at the time of emergency I'll use it without hesitation... If I have 1350 fps #7 shot in there I'll use it too and I will know from experience that a blast to the chest cavity at 4 steps away will have the same effect as if I shot him with My 3'' 00 buck, or My .338 ultra mag --- that adversary will pile up in his tracks... Remeber, were not discussing what to use at hunting distances, so the "birdshot is for birds" comments are easy and clever but nothing more... We're talking about distances nearly close enough for powder burns, and if I step outside the confines of My home then I'm surely going with some #4 buck because it's a function of distance... Grabs some different shells for Your scatter gun and some sacrificial material and go shooting...

Finally, reality.

WoodenPlank
10-02-2010, 12:35
If you feel comfortable betting your life on something designed to kill a one pound bird, then go for it. I have to point out that you never specify what kind of animals you have shot with what kinds of shotgun loads. Have you killed something even remotely the size of a human (say, a deer) at a distance of 15' with bird shot? Provide me some documentation where you did, and what the results were, and I might start to consider the use of bird shot valid for HD.
Things like small to medium dogs, opossums, raccoons, etc. are not an adequate analog for what a load will do against a human, due to radically different bone and muscle structures.
Also, even if they were smaller animals, did they drop dead in their tracks, or at least stop moving? Or did they slowly limp off after the first shot? If bird shot left even a small animal limping off (the equivalent of a human being able to continue the fight), then what makes you think it will be so devastating against a human - a creature with a heavier bone structure, greater body mass, and a more spread out organ structure (comparative to the size of the shot).
I have seen a load of 12ga bird shot his a SQUIRREL dead on at 15', knock the squirrel from the tree, then watched the squirrel start to slowly crawl away after hitting the ground. It took a second load of birdshot to put the creature out of its misery. Even after just the first shot, it was RIDDLED with holes from the shot, but it still took a second load to put it down. I am supposed to believe that the same shell that took TWO rounds to put down a squirrel is going to stop a bad guy dead in his tracks?

I appreciate the fact that bird shot is going to penetrate less through drywall than any kind of buckshot, and gives less risk of collateral damage, but I still see ZERO reason to bet my life on a load of bird shot. If it is smaller than #4 buck, I just do not see it as adequate for social purposes, and actual ballistic gelatin tests seem to pretty resoundingly back me up with that.

K.Kiser
10-02-2010, 15:53
The animals were 1 doe, 3 wild hogs, and 1 large pitbull but I hate to disappoint You by saying I didn't film it although it probably wouldn't make a difference at this point... None of them did anything but twitch afterward except for the largest boar that similated a running motion on his side for a several seconds... If You think that it only delivers a surface wound @ 10'-15' then there is much to be realized... I know Your comfortable with full buckshot so I'd recommend that to Your to retain confidence, but when I was 17 years old I built a .416 Rem Mag to deer hunt with because I had somehow convinced myself that my A-Bolt .280 just wasn't enough... It's funny now ...

Aceman
10-02-2010, 16:34
Put a pumpkin in a leather jacket, back up 5-7 steps and shoot it with birdshot. Then come back and tell us what you think.

WoodenPlank
10-02-2010, 16:39
Put a pumpkin in a leather jacket, back up 5-7 steps and shoot it with birdshot. Then come back and tell us what you think.

:rofl:
Hence why I mentioned the fact that the gel tests from earlier in this thread were with bare gelatin.

As for dropping a doe with birdshot from 15 feet?
Pics, or it didnt happen. I have seen too many cases of humans taking birdshot to the face at close range and not only surviving, but staying in the fight. I just do not see birdshot being effective against a BG at anything short of contact range.

Edit to add: I reject your Youtube, and substitute my own!
Clicky (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzVAnRWfweU)
3 pizza boxes, with pizzas, and one warmer bag stopped almost the entire shot column of bird shot at, what, about 10 feet?
The buckshot, on the other hand... "What pizzas?"

K.Kiser
10-02-2010, 17:04
:rofl:
Hence why I mentioned the fact that the gel tests from earlier in this thread were with bare gelatin.

As for dropping a doe with birdshot from 15 feet?
Pics, or it didnt happen. I have seen too many cases of humans taking birdshot to the face at close range and not only surviving, but staying in the fight. I just do not see birdshot being effective against a BG at anything short of contact range.

My Uncle and I were squirrel hunting about 200 yards apart in a dense area of woods... After a night of staying up too late My uncle fell asleep while sitting at the base of a tree, and when he woke up there was a doe standing to his left and in the direction that the gun was laying across his lap... A slight aim change and alot of luck he pulled the trigger and hit here at the base of the neck and walla, the sprad was about 1.25" wide and exited... The hogs were trapped from an infested area and we shoot them in the cage and give the meat away, no exit wound... If someone gets shot in the face and keeps walking, I have my serious doubts to say the least that it was at "inside home" range... I've seen some strange things, I actually watched a house cat get a 140 grain 7mm Mag put through it about 100 yards and run off to die a short distance away... There are exceptions to every rule, but no man will take 7.5 shot to the head at 20' and still be a threat whatsoever...

WoodenPlank
10-02-2010, 17:18
My Uncle and I were squirrel hunting about 200 yards apart in a dense area of woods... After a night of staying up too late My uncle fell asleep while sitting at the base of a tree, and when he woke up there was a doe standing to his left and in the direction that the gun was laying across his lap... A slight aim change and alot of luck he pulled the trigger and hit here at the base of the neck and walla, the sprad was about 1.25" wide and exited... The hogs were trapped from an infested area and we shoot them in the cage and give the meat away, no exit wound... If someone gets shot in the face and keeps walking, I have my serious doubts to say the least that it was at "inside home" range... I've seen some strange things, I actually watched a house cat get a 140 grain 7mm Mag put through it about 100 yards and run off to die a short distance away... There are exceptions to every rule, but no man will take 7.5 shot to the head at 20' and still be a threat whatsoever...

Philly cop shot with bird shot from a sawed-off at close range. He was hit in the face, returned fire, and chased the suspect for 5 blocks.
Link (http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=news/local&id=5672136)

Also:
Rodney King (yes, THAT Rodney King) was shot in 2007 with what appeared to be bird shot, taking pellets in the face,arms and back after someone tried stealing his bike. He lived.
Link here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodney_King#After_the_riots)

Also, if you are shooting hogs in a cage, I am betting it was a lot closer than 15 feet.

Edit to add: Neck shot at 15 feet on the doe? I am betting it bled to death, and it wasn't a instant kill. That is about as undesireable of a situation as you can ask for in a HD situation, as the criminal is effectively dead, but still has enough time to kill you before he bleeds out.

K.Kiser
10-02-2010, 18:54
Philly cop shot with bird shot from a sawed-off at close range. He was hit in the face, returned fire, and chased the suspect for 5 blocks.
Link (http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=news/local&id=5672136)

Also:
Rodney King (yes, THAT Rodney King) was shot in 2007 with what appeared to be bird shot, taking pellets in the face,arms and back after someone tried stealing his bike. He lived.
Link here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodney_King#After_the_riots)

Also, if you are shooting hogs in a cage, I am betting it was a lot closer than 15 feet.

Edit to add: Neck shot at 15 feet on the doe? I am betting it bled to death, and it wasn't a instant kill. That is about as undesireable of a situation as you can ask for in a HD situation, as the criminal is effectively dead, but still has enough time to kill you before he bleeds out.


A shot to the base of the neck is an dang near instant anchor shot, lots of nerves in that area and the body shuts down like right now... If You do much hunting try it on your next large game, it drops them like a sack of feed... The hogs that we've shot in cages are about the distance I mentioned, possibly closer but no less than 10'... The accounts of the criminals being shot and survivng are certainly at distances greater than encountered in a home, and or weren't well aimed... Distance is a big deal here, anything greater than home distances and I too prefer a larger shot... Shotgun pellets have a horrible ballistic coefficient and sectional density (odd terms for a shotgun discussion I know) and they slow down very quickly, but up close while the velocity is still there and the pattern is tight they dig pretty good in flesh... The only real test is to do it on actual flesh which isn't practical or moral, because while analogies give some idea they can be very misleading... Just for the sake of gab here are some examples of strange results done by My Father, Brother and I.... We do alot of handloading and long range competition shooting/hunting.... We're always trying new loads, bullets, trials and errors and do penetraion tests for fun sometimes... Moist clay slows the bullets we'eve fired as quickly as wood... The .416 Rem aforementioned would penetrate about 30" of wet clay, but would go that far or more through an oak tree... My Brother's hot loaded 300 Weatherby would go through a near 3' oak tree but stopped @ 42" of hog before coming to a stop.... One of My favorites is I saw a cotton boll stop a .22 short up close because of the "give" that it has... At the end of the day the only real result is will it do a specific task...

gunsmoke92
10-03-2010, 19:11
000 Buck shot followed by a hollow point slug through the whole magazine. First shot opens them up the second dumps them on the woodpile. No reason to debate this as either round sends them out the door, feet first. :whistling:

pennlineman
10-03-2010, 19:32
We're always trying new loads, bullets, trials and errors and do penetraion tests for fun sometimes... Moist clay slows the bullets we'eve fired as quickly as wood... The .416 Rem aforementioned would penetrate about 30" of wet clay, but would go that far or more through an oak tree... My Brother's hot loaded 300 Weatherby would go through a near 3' oak tree but stopped @ 42" of hog before coming to a stop.... One of My favorites is I saw a cotton boll stop a .22 short up close because of the "give" that it has... At the end of the day the only real result is will it do a specific task...

I've never seen a .30 cal that would penetrate anywhere near 3 feet into an oak tree. 30 inches with the 416? The oaks in La must be a lot softer then the ones we have in Pa. :dunno:

rjm
10-03-2010, 19:37
I am not really going to get into the birdshot vs. buckshot debate, but I would like to point out a few things. #7.5 shot isn't the same thing as #2 or BB shot, which is what the OP is asking about. Usually in these types of threads, there is a common misconception that "birdshot = dove shot," which is kind of unfair to the OP's original question. #2 is shot commonly used on duck or goose, bb is usually reserved for goose, much larger birds than a dove.

I am a duckhunter and generally have quite a lot of good ammo in #2 to bb sized shot laying around, I would personally feel fine using it for an intruder into my house, but I believe my 20 gauge is loaded with #1 shot right now. It's all good, just don't miss.

JK-linux
10-03-2010, 19:45
I think I read somewhere long ago that the Secret Service loads their shotguns with number 4 on protection details. Anyone know if this is still true?

Jeff82
10-03-2010, 20:19
Look at the picture of the #4 birdshot (heavy Dove load) fired at 9 feet. Is this the penetration you're happy with? You won't be getting any vitals with this load.

http://www.shadonet.com/?cat=35

I'm a #1 Buck guy myself. 30% more wound area than 00 Buck.

K.Kiser
10-03-2010, 21:00
I've never seen a .30 cal that would penetrate anywhere near 3 feet into an oak tree. 30 inches with the 416? The oaks in La must be a lot softer then the ones we have in Pa. :dunno:

This is aside from the topic, but it is imperative to use a premium bullet and we don't leave the house without them... We handload all our stuff ( no shotgun handloads) and We almost exclusively use Barnes X projectiles of Nosler partitions at the least and it makes a big different in comparason to the lazy and shiftless "pointed soft points" that are common factory ammo... I'll promise you that they'll do it, and my accounts of the penetration were actually a little conservative... A 180 grain solid copper bullet traveling far over 3,000 fps don't stop moving easily... It's been 15 years ago, but I thing the .416 was using 350 grain Barnex or A-Frame bullets... Our current project is My Brother's .338 Edge and shooting 225 grain Barnes at Jedi speed it's blows holes through 5/8" steel gongs @ 500 yards without a hitch, premium bullets are something different altogether... It's not really a hunting rifle though, and He typically shoots 240 Grain boattail target ammo as the rifle was really built for 1/2 mile and 1000 yard competition...

pennlineman
10-03-2010, 21:14
This is aside from the topic, but it is imperative to use a premium bullet and we don't leave the house without them... We handload all our stuff ( no shotgun handloads) and We almost exclusively use Barnes X projectiles of Nosler partitions at the least and it makes a big different in comparason to the lazy and shiftless "pointed soft points" that are common factory ammo... I'll promise you that they'll do it, and my accounts of the penetration were actually a little conservative... A 180 grain solid copper bullet traveling far over 3,000 fps don't stop moving easily... It's been 15 years ago, but I thing the .416 was using 350 grain Barnex or A-Frame bullets...

Premium bullets, designed for expansion making it through 30 plus inches of wood? Maybe a 30 cal AP bullet loaded in the cartridge of your choice might penetrate that much wood. You sure that tree's not hollow?

K.Kiser
10-04-2010, 16:18
Premium bullets, designed for expansion making it through 30 plus inches of wood? Maybe a 30 cal AP bullet loaded in the cartridge of your choice might penetrate that much wood. You sure that tree's not hollow?

The premium bullets ( Barnes solid types) are designed for an aggressive control of expansion, and will nearly always retain more that 90% of the original weight no matter the circumstance, and generally retain at least 95% of it's weight going through an animal no matter how much bone contact and that is a huge advantage... Although I can't sit here and promise that the tree didn't have a hollow spot as I didn't cut it down so I can't swear beyond a doubt that it was 100% solid through.... These same loads however wouldn't penetrate that far through pine, it seems the pine is more difficult to punch through and I was guessing that the adhesion of the sap added too much "stickyness" and gave the wood alot of fluid properties that halted the bullets... Oak is definitely easier to punch... You've got Me thinking about this, I might get my brothers pop gun back out and video tape it again to see if there is some consistancy... Sorry to the original thread poster for the tangent...

pennlineman
10-04-2010, 17:34
The premium bullets ( Barnes solid types) are designed for an aggressive control of expansion, and will nearly always retain more that 90% of the original weight no matter the circumstance, and generally retain at least 95% of it's weight going through an animal no matter how much bone contact and that is a huge advantage... Although I can't sit here and promise that the tree didn't have a hollow spot as I didn't cut it down so I can't swear beyond a doubt that it was 100% solid through.... These same loads however wouldn't penetrate that far through pine, it seems the pine is more difficult to punch through and I was guessing that the adhesion of the sap added too much "stickyness" and gave the wood alot of fluid properties that halted the bullets... Oak is definitely easier to punch... You've got Me thinking about this, I might get my brothers pop gun back out and video tape it again to see if there is some consistancy... Sorry to the original thread poster for the tangent...


You may be right, I'm having a hard seeing it though. A know where a big stack of junk logs are, so maybe a new project to experiment with. :supergrin: I've tacked targets to some decent sized stumps and never had complete penetration with my 06. But then again my sierra game kings are hardly premium, they just work on deer. I have some old AP bullets to play with, tryed them on steel, never wood. Believe it or not I had a 7 inch maple stop a 500gr bullet cold at about 15 feet for a 500 magnum.

Take care buddy :wavey:

K.Kiser
10-04-2010, 17:56
You may be right, I'm having a hard seeing it though. A know where a big stack of junk logs are, so maybe a new project to experiment with. :supergrin: I've tacked targets to some decent sized stumps and never had complete penetration with my 06. But then again my sierra game kings are hardly premium, they just work on deer. I have some old AP bullets to play with, tryed them on steel, never wood. Believe it or not I had a 7 inch maple stop a 500gr bullet cold at about 15 feet for a 500 magnum.

Take care buddy :wavey:

I've shot alot of .44 Mag and 45-70 hand loads up to 300 grains and they don't penetrate well, but as designed they deliver a good hit of kinetic energy like a shotgun slug... I called My brother and asked him about our old tree test, and although He couldn't really remember for sure but He had his doubts that it was as deep as I remembered... I guess I'll have to recreate a test to see if I was wrong and how much so... I might go raid My Dad's gun room for a .300 caliber of some variety and a few hunting loads...

Hydra-SHOKz
10-04-2010, 19:28
The animals were 1 doe, 3 wild hogs

Why would you try and take these animals with bird shot?

K.Kiser
10-04-2010, 19:44
Why would you try and take these animals with bird shot?

I explained the circumstances in previous posts... They were all very close range and impacted in the neck area with immediate results, and no way I would set out to hunt in a traditonal sense with that type ammo... I don't hunt much anymore, but it's very uncommon for Me to have a low brass shell loaded unless I'm inside My home were 2 small children live... I squirrel hunt with high brass #6 shot and even some 3" #6, or a .22 Long Rifle, and typically deer hunt with no less than handloaded 7x57 Mauser up to .300 WSM, and all but a few occasions I check hog traps (rare occasion these days) with a Model 29 Smith and Wesson .44 Mag with 265 grain Hornady handloads...

B.Reid
10-12-2010, 13:27
Bird shot is for birds, buckshot is for bad guys.

Buckshot is for bucks! :tongueout:

WoodenPlank
10-13-2010, 05:37
Buckshot is for bucks! :tongueout:

Them, too.

David Armstrong
10-13-2010, 12:32
I've just seen too many cases where the BG was shot with stuff smaller than Buck and it didn't do that much to put any trust in it. If there is no choice, sure, but otherwise forget it. Had one BG take a load of some guy's turkey load (#4, IIRC) while wearing a leather jacket. About half the pellets got through the jacket and into the flesh, but nothing went more than an inch deep. That was across the room in a small bedroom.

WoodenPlank
10-13-2010, 18:25
I've just seen too many cases where the BG was shot with stuff smaller than Buck and it didn't do that much to put any trust in it. If there is no choice, sure, but otherwise forget it. Had one BG take a load of some guy's turkey load (#4, IIRC) while wearing a leather jacket. About half the pellets got through the jacket and into the flesh, but nothing went more than an inch deep. That was across the room in a small bedroom.

This pretty much sums up my thoughts on the matter, but in a slightly more long-form version.

CBennett
10-14-2010, 07:01
Only birdshot id use is T or the hard to find F...Id not hesitate to use T but id not do BBB or smaller T/F is virtually the same size as #4 buck. Biggest thing with those loads would be you dont want steel shot and they are waterfowl shot(goose) so most are steel you would have to use one of those fancy heavy shot type of materials...While I have some OLD(before the switch over to steel) T/F shot laying around thats lead..its too old to use so now I just use 00/000 or #4 buck and have no preference to any of those..I think just because its been on sale lately I have more 00 buck laying around but if the other went on sale id not hesitate to get it..I know for our Duty carry at my work we use #4 Buck.

#5xbr
10-17-2010, 19:00
Im sorry.But i cannot understand why anyone wants to defend their life with the minimum response, My hd weapon is a mossberg model 5500 7+1 with a 4 slug side saddle. The 7=00 buckshot. there u go. hehe my minmum response.