Keg's 10mm hunting load quest thread. [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Kegs
08-29-2010, 21:24
I'm going to use this thread to refer back to as I have more and more hand-loading and re-loading information to post. Right now it's only going to involve 1 powder (800x) and 1 bullet (200gr. xtp in 10mm) but I would rather not post it in the stickied thread due to throwing in other information.

So yesterday (8/28/10) was the first time I have ever bought or used a chrono in my life. I have learned a valuable lesson during the last two days regarding chrono use - but more on that later in the thread. :supergrin:

My quest for this load started about 10 years ago during a Colorado elk hunting season that found me dragging a big 24" barreled scoped Browning A-bolt through the spruce and gambel oak on the side of 45 degree hills where there happened to be several giant bull elk running up and down various times of the short autumn days. I found myself in a predicament more than once where the big gun, bipod, sling and 6-24x leupold were just not the right tools for that otherwise productive area.

After several years of prior hunting the high up country (10K+ ASL) where long shots were necessary to hit anything, I found that there is lower ground out there that is just as challenging to hunt, and even more productive and advantageous for various reasons - but I learned a different tool was necessary. My conclusion was that in this spot (and many other similar travel/migration routes), a short barreled weapon with open sights would have a distinct advantage over a scoped rifle.

I had a progression of firearms I have purchased and sold since going big game hunting last and coupled with various experiments with "modular" arms and other items that have multiple uses, my experience over the years has led me to a preference of extreme practicality. So my current quest as it relates with firearms is I have made the decision to purchase a handgun (in the case the G29SF) that can serve multiple roles;

Concealable self-defense.
Multiple caliber capability (modularity).
Practical for hunting small game
Practical for hunting medium-large game.

So right now I have a G29SF with an Advantage arms upper + 2 mags that will allow me to use the small pistol to hunt anything from squirrels to Moose.

One of the constraints I chose to meet when deciding what weapons system to purchase was Colorado's "elk hunting" centerfire pistol requirement of producing 550 ft/lbs. of energy at 50 yards.

So as I examined the various rounds that offer that level of firepower, yet are still concealable, I settled on the 10mm being "it". Due to the modularity, cost, and manufacturer support, I chose the Glock 29 as the model I wanted to use for these purposes.

This brings us up to the current situation: I am developing a 10mm load I can use for hunting big game.

After exhaustive reading on this forum and others and considering the opinions of many people who I have discussed this with in combination of my experiences with shooting, hunting and killing and dissecting deer and elk, my conclusion was that I wanted to have a bullet that had the best combination of penetration, expansion and ballistics. That led me to the 200 grain Hornady XTP. It has amongst the highest ballistic coefficient of any 10mm bullet, it is reasonably available, the comparative external ballistics looked better than the less weightier choices, and based on running some handloads through water jugs (country boy testing is the best I can do), this seems like it's going to be a very good choice for the desired application.

Now if only powders were as easy to decide on. If you look at current reloading tables, you will find there's only about 100 powders you can use, and if you visit discussion forums, there is only about 1000 different guys on them and each one of them likes one of the different 100 powders - but in all honesty, I found that most of them settled on one of the more popular 7 powders that more often than not come to mind (in no order):

Blue dot;
Long shot;
AA#7;
AA#9;
2400;
800X;
N105

...and of all the people who I had reviewed post on forums there is one person that stood out as one who had taken the velocity testing with 10mm further than anyone else - and surprisingly, his name is NOT McNett. (though the info he has posted is invaluable). What this particular person led on to is that 800x will go further with less pressure than any other common popular powder on the retail market - IF you're not afraid to push the limits of the cartridge (and this means beyond what the mfgr. listed as "max" loads). Obviously, an aftermarket barrel was necessary for this to prevent case head rupture - so I got one of those too.

So, after playing around with blue dot and 155gr. bullets for "fun" and getting used to reloading this cartridge more than anything else, I decided to get serious and procure some 800x.

I'll post more tomorrow when I have some time. Stay tuned - Interesting results from 8/28 & 8/29coming soon - with pics. :wavey:

MalumProhibitum
08-31-2010, 16:31
I'll post more tomorrow when I have some time. Stay tuned - Interesting results from 8/28 & 8/29coming soon - with pics.

Tomorrow has come and gone. We are going to have to hold you to your promises.

Kegs
08-31-2010, 16:31
Sorry - I got busy so I couldn't continue on with this. I hope someone is finding this entertaining - this should be an informative post for sure.

So lets bring this quest up to speed.

I've had my G29SF for about a year now. As soon as I made the decision to sell all the rest of my firearms and purchase this one, I wanted to purchase enough of an effective package so I could immediately shoot this gun and get used to it quickly. So here is what I bought initially:

(1)G29SF (from a local FFL dealer who got me a way better price on it relative to retail).
(2) Pearce grip extensions for G29 mags
(2) G20 magazines
(2) Extensions for the G20 mags to fit G29
(1) Advantage arms .22LR conversion kit model 29/30 LE
(1) extra mag for the AA conv. kit.
(1) set of Dawson precision adjustable sights with a fiber optic equipped front post for the AA conversion kit
(1) adjustable heavy duty Novak's adjustable tritium equipped rear night sight.
(1) Ameriglo tritium filled .315" h. front night sight (to match the Novak's).
(1) LWD 3.5# connector
(1) G20 trigger bar (smooth trigger surface)
(1) ****** tactical KZ tactical lanyard.
(2) 50rd. boxes of Double tap 10mm 200 gr. controlled expansion ammo.
(500) pcs. 10mm scharch brass.
(2) boxes of 155gr. XTPs
(1) 1lb. of Blue dot powder.
(3) 100pcs. Remington Large pistol primers
(NOTE: I already had a lot of .22LR ammo around to shoot for the kit).

Reloading equipment (Note: I already had a RCBS rockchucker press, brass tumbler and some other reloading equipment, but at the time I was going on the road and wanted everything portable, so I purchased the following additional items):

(1) Lee hand press (I love this press)
(1) Lee 3-die set for .40sw/10mm
(1) Lee powder measure kit
...and some other stuff that was unnecessary (like case trimming guides and shellholders - one came with the die set). :supergrin:

The whole kit -except the powder - fit into a small tupperwear container about the size of a shoebox. I am very pleased with this setup.

Later, I purchased a few boxes of 200gr. XTP bullets (they were not available for the longest time)

More recently, as I better understood what happened to shell casings as they came out of my stock barrel, I purchased a KKM extended barrel (the extension offers more velocity and a 21# spring (which has seemed quite wimpy lately).

...and of course, since it is highly impractical to work up a decent high-power load if you don't know what the velocity of the load is, I purchased a chronograph. The model I purchased was based on reviews, price and other information. Let's just say, this unit is accurate enough for me.

Earlier last week I also purchased a T.R. Graham MGBL (Match grade barrel lock) - this gizmo is a precision replacement part for a sloppily produced stock glock part that is associated with locking part of the barrel in place while it is in battery. It is (I think) a very great idea at the very least, based on comparing the design of the two parts.

Today, I made a couple of other purchases: A set of 23# springs, and a Ghost rocket 3.5# connector (hoping that this one makes the trigger feel even better than the LWD connector - based on reports). The loads I am running through this pistol are absolutely beyond the 21# springs. I don't plan on running wimpy loads through this pistol (after all, I didn't order the .40 short and weak version did I?).

So, here's a few pictures of my setup on my shooting range:

All benches, etc. are home made projects I built with scrap lumber:
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h235/Radsport2er/benchsetup.jpg

A close up view of the pistol (in .22lr format during this pic).
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h235/Radsport2er/viewofpistol.jpg

A pic downrange:
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h235/Radsport2er/chronosetup.jpg

...and a pic showing the 2/6 double tap rounds I ran through the chrono, plus the journal (with .22 remington golden bullet bulk round data I had just taken - so you have an idea of how I am keeping track of all this):
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h235/Radsport2er/Doubletap.jpg

Kegs
08-31-2010, 16:56
So on 8/28 and 8/29, I tested the velocity on some ammo. This is the first time I have ever owned or used a chronometer, so I read the directions and it seemed simple enough - I wanted to run the .22LR through it first to see how it read. This was a piece of cake, since the chrono already handles the stats and remembers all the velocities for you. This is a fun piece of equipment.

I first shot (2) mags of remington golden bullet ammo through the advantage arms 29/30 LE kit - this is Advantage arm's #1 recommended rimfire round for their kit - which is designed as a plinker by default - and not a target pistol (though it's not too bad in this respect). The ammo however, leaves something to be desired:

Conditions: 85F, RH? (probably around 40%), 1400 feet asl, quite sunny (hence the errors)

Shot1 809
Shot2 878
Shot3 800
Shot4 871
Shot5 920
Shot6 913
Shot7 905
Shot8 908
Shot9 957
Shot10 771

Hi: 957 Lo: 771 Average: 873 Extreme spread: 186 Standard deviation: 60

Okay, that was fun: How about doing it again:

Shot1 916
Shot2 803
Shot3 968
Shot4 905
Shot5 885
Shot6 812
Shot7 983
Shot8 911
Shot9 no reading
Shot10 no reading

Hi: 983 Lo: 803 Average: 897 Extreme spread: 180 Standard deviation: 64

Wow, that ammo sucks! :rofl:(but at least it feeds and fires, right?) :supergrin:

So for my second trial, I thought I would try double tap, since I consistently read on this forum (and others) that the ammo does not meet up with published figures on the box. G20 length barrel velocity the box these rounds came in suggested 1250 fps. Interesting. I decided to spare 6 rounds of the very few I have left to try:

Shot1 No reading
Shot2 No reading
Shot3 1175
Shot4 1163
Shot5 no reading
Shot6 1195

Average: 1177 Extreme spread 32 Standard deviation: 16 (keep in mind that the small sample on this one hardly makes the stats significant).

1177...Wow, well there is a 4.45" barrel here on my G29. A G20 measures 4.6", that's not a lot of difference for the extra 73 fps to be made up. Of course I am 15' away from the barrel - could we have lost 50 fps in 5 yards? Hmmm...Well, like I stated before, a small sample is hardly conclusive, but it presents a window that suggests to me that the rounds are loaded fairly stout, but we'll just call the box reading "optimistic". :cool:

Some suggestions have been made that a heavier spring could make a difference as to the velocity, well - believe me folks, that is a test that is high on the list. I still have a few double tap rounds left, and maybe we'll use the last of the batch to give a test on that idea soon.

Kegs
08-31-2010, 17:10
Now for the test of my handloads:

*NOTE: WORK UP LOADS SAFELY FOLLOWING MANUFACTURERS DIRECTIONS AT YOUR OWN RISK* :wavey:

Conditions: see post above.

Case: Scharch (top brass) new, but run through Lee forming die first.
Primer: CCI350 (yeah, the magnum one)
Powder: 800X
Bullet: 200 grain Hornady XTP
Crimp: light/medium taper using standard lee seating/feed die.
C.O.A.L.: 1.26"

EACH CHARGE PAINSTAKINGLY HAND MEASURED ON a 5-0-5 RCBS SCALE.

Start charge:7.4 grains

Shot1 1040
Shot2 1093
Shot3 1028
Shot4 1104
Shot5 1054
Shot6 1101
Shot7 1127
Shot8 no reading
Shot9 no reading
Shot10 no reading
(note: I think failure to read had something to do with the sun/heat/reflection possibly)

hi 1127 lo 1028 average 1077 ES: 99 SD: 34

7.6 grains:

Shot1 No reading
Shot2 1073
Shot3 1128
Shot4 1093
Shot5 1099
Shot6 1075
Shot7 1092
Shot8 1089
Shot9 1089
Shot10 1092

hi: 1128 lo: 1073 Avg: 1092 es: 55 sd: 15

7.8 grains (manufacturer's published maximum load)

Shot1 1119
Shot2 1101
Shot3 1115
Shot4 1125
Shot5 1092
Shot6 1141
Shot7 1093
Shot8 1143
Shot9 1097
Shot10 1135

hi:1143 lo: 1092 avg: 1116 es: 51 sd: 19

Kegs
08-31-2010, 17:16
*NOTE: DONT TRY THIS EVEN AT YOUR OWN RISK*

Conditions same as above, components same as above.

Charge: 8.0 grains

Shot1 1122
Shot2 1092
Shot3 1112
Shot4 1084
Shot5 1125
Shot6 1123
Shot7 1185
Shot8 1110
Shot9 1112
Shot10 1147

hi 1185 lo 1084 avg. 1121 es 101 sd 28

charge: 8.2 grains

Shot1 1140
Shot2 1130
Shot3 1158
Shot4 1129
Shot5 1092
Shot6 1149
Shot7 1131
Shot8 1125
Shot9 1139
Shot10 1129

hi 1158 lo 1092 avg. 1132 es 66 sd 17

At this point on 8/28/10 I stopped because the sun was starting to go down and mosquitoes were starting to come out. :patriot:

8/29's figures coming soon.

Two Guns
08-31-2010, 21:28
Kegs thanks for your posting and all the work you have done with your Glock 29 SF.

hypnagogue
08-31-2010, 22:29
1177...Wow, well there is a 4.45" barrel here on my G29. A G20 measures 4.6", that's not a lot of difference for the extra 73 fps to be made up.

With all due respect, with the lighter slide you will have higher slide velocity which will reduce working pressures. This will have an effect on performance of slower powders. Furthermore, your barrel uses different steel and rifling geometry. Mike tests his loads with a stock barrel and a heavy spring -- thus your setup isn't directly comparable even if they are similar barrel lengths. It is "similar".

Not withstanding this disclaimer, the difference in slide velocity, barrel steel, rifling type, etc, will probably not be enough to match the box-top claims, (in my opinion, until proven otherwise, your mileage may vary). I would love to be proven wrong -- I am also a Colorado elk hunter, and I'd rather carry the G20 than my revolver for finishing shots.

(BTW: at 8000 feet, 200gr XTP at 1180fps is 551fpe @ 50y.)

crockett
08-31-2010, 23:30
Thanks so much for your thread and all the good info. Itís fun to read and boy now I really want to roll my own rounds! Wish I could have your setup and everything right away. Is that your back yard in the pics? Would be fun to have a buddy in my area for all that testing and getting stuff together..

Keep the great work goin..

Kegs
09-01-2010, 03:50
With all due respect, with the lighter slide you will have higher slide velocity which will reduce working pressures. This will have an effect on performance of slower powders. Furthermore, your barrel uses different steel and rifling geometry. Mike tests his loads with a stock barrel and a heavy spring -- thus your setup isn't directly comparable even if they are similar barrel lengths. It is "similar".

Points taken. I wish I could have a G20 here to test it (and compare to the current system), but this is as close as I can come. That sloppy chamber andy poly rifling has got to make a difference in the MV, though I am still unconvinced it would be a positive one.

Not withstanding this disclaimer, the difference in slide velocity, barrel steel, rifling type, etc, will probably not be enough to match the box-top claims, (in my opinion, until proven otherwise, your mileage may vary). I would love to be proven wrong -- I am also a Colorado elk hunter, and I'd rather carry the G20 than my revolver for finishing shots.

(BTW: at 8000 feet, 200gr XTP at 1180fps is 551fpe @ 50y.)I know it barely scrapes by the specs, but I wanted just a little more power than that. Thankfully, D.T. ammo is moot as you see my further results...

Kegs
09-01-2010, 04:45
*NOTE: DONT TRY THIS EVEN AT YOUR OWN RISK*

8/29's data:Conditions: Sunny, hot, windy, 88F, around 50% RH.

Components: same as 8/28

8.4grains

Shot1 1151
Shot2 1121
Shot3 1156
Shot4 1142
Shot5 1164
Shot6 1138
Shot7 1110
Shot8 1122
Shot9 1144
Shot10 1195

hi 1195 lo 1121 average: 1150 es=74 SD=22

8.6 & 8.8 grain strings:

errors (due to heat/ direct sunlight on unit)? 8.6gr. started reading triple digit numbers, then 8.8 gr. started reading in the 1400 ranges with too many repeats - Sounds great, but I knew this wasn't right.

I estimate that the avg. of 8.6gr ~1175 fps and that 8.8gr ~1200 fps

-covered unit from sun using cardboard as suggested in chrono manual (except directly above light gates) and came back after lunch about 2 hours, and re-tested the .22 ammo to test for consistency.

.22 Rem. golden bullet:

Shot1 960
Shot2 823
Shot3 819
Shot4 925
Shot5 920
Shot6 858
Shot7 804
Shot8 916
Shot9 no reading
Shot10 812

hi 960 lo 804 average: 811 es: 156 SD=56

This seems to be acceptably consistent with the prior's day measurements - so on we go...

9.0 grains

Shot1 1214
Shot2 1233
Shot3 1224
Shot4 1208
Shot5 1227
Shot6 1212
Shot7 1244
Shot8 1218
Shot9 no reading
Shot10 no reading

hi 1244 lo 1208 average: 1222 es=36 S.D.=12

9.2 grains

Shot1 1204
Shot2 1247
Shot3 1246
Shot4 1223
Shot5 1278
Shot6 1223
Shot7 1234
Shot8 1207
Shot9 1209
Shot10 1219

hi 1278 lo 1204 avg: 1229 es 74 SD=22

9.4 grains

Shot1 no reading
Shot2 1241
Shot3 1273
Shot4 1256
Shot5 1244
Shot6 1244
Shot7 1246
Shot8 1265
Shot9 1240
Shot10 1244

hi 1273 lo 1240 avg: 1250 es 33 sd 11

*Note: this load had the highest precision of all loads tested on the target*

9.6 grains

Shot1 1261
Shot2 1224
Shot3 1261
Shot4 1257
Shot5 1275
Shot6 1255
Shot7 1272
Shot8 1307
Shot9 1263
Shot10 1239

hi 1307 lo 1224 average 1261 es 83 s.d. 21

9.8 gr.

Shot1 (1278 - if I recall correctly)
Shot2 went right through the top of the plastic case of the chornograph ripping the bullet in (my estimation) 1/4 and putting a nice scrape/hole in the top of the case about 8"-12" long so that 1/4 of the lead AND JACKET(this is an XTP we're talking about - tough jackets!) was sitting in the bottom of the chronograph and 3/4 of it went downrange.

Parts of the bullet hit and or moved some critical components (including splitting the power wire from the battery box) on its way through, which rendered the chronograph from reading further.

As I mentioned earlier, I am a "green" chronograph user. I built the chronograph table before putting the chronograph on it and looking through the area in between the bars/light screens at the target.

After the table was all set, and the chronograph was placed up there, I looked through it and found that my sights placed my bullet only about 4" above the case of the chronograph. I knew this was a little close, but really didn't think I was going to hit it. The first day I put a backpack up on the pistol rest to "raise up" my hold a little...I didn't think that helped much, so the second day I left it off and shot on the foam pad I have there. Experience shapes wisdom - Next time I will have it set up so the bullet goes higher above the unit, so if I hit anything, its going to be a sun screen. (cheaper to replace)

I did not take any pictures, due to the embarrassment. I somewhat regret not taking pictures of this now. :dunno: Oh well. live and learn.

I contacted the chrono mfgr. for a schematic and parts, but they didn't offer one - they suggested sending it in for repair instead - which they said was cheaper than replacing it, so that's what I did. I expect $30-50 worth of damages based on judging the parts that got nailed, but hopefully the jarring from getting thrown off the table by the bullet didn't kill parts I didn't see damage to...

I have also ordered a set of 23# springs from wolff. I expect all this will be in around 2 weeks time for more testing.

I have loaded the 800x charges up to 10 grains (I was almost there), which I will test once I get back set up. I'm not going above 10 grains - I believe 10 grains is beyond SAAMI pressure specs.

I did not see any signs of overpressure during the entire test, but recoil started overriding the 21# spring to the point of a few bouts of ejection failure around 9.4 grains.

Before I get back set up I think I am going to load some more 9.4 grain charges to do some milk jug testing on. I am interested to see the penetration factor on these and also whether or not the jacket stays on through the thin plastic & water at this speed - would further like to see how far the bullet is peeled back. I am going to weigh and sort the brass this time - and eye the scale as carefully as I can this next time to get as precise of a load as I can and see how tight I can get these.

If testing works out well, this may become my new pet load. :supergrin:

Kegs
09-01-2010, 05:59
Thanks so much for your thread and all the good info. Itís fun to read and boy now I really want to roll my own rounds! Wish I could have your setup and everything right away. Is that your back yard in the pics? Would be fun to have a buddy in my area for all that testing and getting stuff together..

Keep the great work goin..

I wish I had a friend who shot 10mm in the area too - especially one that had a G20... :supergrin: My uncle has a G20, but he (ironically) lives in the Orlando area - and mostly goes to his cabin in TN to shoot.

This isn't really my back yard, but the back of my acreage, about 350 yards from my yard separated by a big hill (so it's not so loud for the missus) :cool:

Kegs
09-02-2010, 19:57
Ok, so what is 200 grains, can travel clear through 4 milk jugs filled up with water, putting enough of a dent in the 5th milk jug to cause a slight crack or at least a dent, measures 0.65" average diameter and has 98% weight retention?

Why a 200 grain XTP bullet shot out of a hand cannon at 1250 fps average velocity, that's what! :supergrin:

I loaded 50 more of the 9.4 grain x 800x up today and shot 10 rounds of them - first to sight in my pistol, which is set perfect now, and second to do some penetration & expansion testing...

Oh, the 200 gr. XTP performed admirably at this velocity. I fired 2 of them through a line of 5 milk jugs today and couldn't find the first one, though noted it had gone through the 4th milk jug - just like the second test and on the second test I found the bullet.

It completely exploded the first milk jug and devastated the second, then left a small remnant of lead in the 3rd milk jug (actually this occurred on the first trial too) and completely penetrated #4 so that it put a nice dent on jug #5, but just not quite enough to penetrate #5.

I've done some various penetration testing using this cheap format and so far I had only been able to penetrate the 3rd milk jug - with the double tap rounds and the 155gr. blue dot hotties I loaded up earlier on.

With the double taps (montana gold bullets), the jacket just came off in the second jug and left a skinny piece of hard lead in the third. The expansion was ok, but nothing to write home about and the penetration was about the same as my 155gr. B.D. bullets (just over max published velocities - and hard on the extractor - I felt those were hot).

This pet load of mine is in a new class. It's in the full load class, bordering nuke. I am very happy with the results and this will be my new do-it-all round for the pistol. I have no doubt this puppy will break bone and penetrate deeply or through and through an elk if I happen to miss bone.

The jacket never shed even with that kind of velocity. :thumbsup:

I suppose I could place a piece of 3/4" plywood in between the 1st and 2nd jugs to simulate bone, but I still think it would rip through the third milk jug and that's plenty of energy for any job I plan on doing with it.

Here's a few pics of the retrieved bullet:

Bullet and fragments weighed 198 grains after retrieval:
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h235/Radsport2er/1250200.jpg

Bullet measured 0.65" average diameter (estimated conservatively):
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h235/Radsport2er/12502002.jpg

Bullet still had a decent stem left with jacket intact:
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h235/Radsport2er/12502001.jpg


I shot this round for adjustment of my sights earlier tonight and this load has very tight precision. I think it's a keeper for me. I'm still going to re-test it when I get my chono back + I will compare the results using the new 23# springs as well!

The recoil is definitely peppy at this velocity using the little G29 - but I like it! I am looking forward to loading up a bunch of these and practicing diligently out to 100y or so to get solid with it.

:perfect10:

Until next time!

crockett
09-02-2010, 22:59
I think I have to follow your route.. talking about pimping up my G29SF and finding my favorite handload. You really got me hooked.. :exercise:

So far I havenít done a lot to my handgun: just Meprolight fixed night sights, extended slide lock and pierce grip extension for the mags.

I thought about a .40 LW conversion barrel but I guess Iím gonna skip that :whistling: You bought a KKM barrel. Why not a LW? And why did you choose a 4.45 barrel over a G20 in the first place?

As soon as I made the barrel decision I want to get a chronograph. Just for getting a first idea what to expect from factory ammo. What chronograph did you get?

After that I will get my handload equipment.. which will need some more research on my side.

Thanks again for your tests and the posts. I appreciate it.

Maine1
09-03-2010, 01:14
OK, i am enviuos of those velocities with the 200 gr XTP!

your data listed 7.8 gr as max, if i read correctly, and your load is 9.6 gr, right?

with a magnum primer, as well. Is there any primer flow, case head expansion, ect? I am curious as i'd like a similar load for my g-20, but i am hesitant to exceed the posted loads by much. My experience with 800X leads me to believe it would be less risky to do so then with, say blue dot or AA#9.

we all shoot a chrony now and then..and the 200 gr XTP's are great chrony medicine, usually a 1 shot stop.....BTDT. :)

I put up 375 rounds of 180 gr 10mm tonight...i have 2 boxes of 200 grainers looking for a good load.

Kegs
09-03-2010, 10:22
I thought about a .40 LW conversion barrel but I guess Iím gonna skip that :whistling: You bought a KKM barrel. Why not a LW? And why did you choose a 4.45 barrel over a G20 in the first place?

KKM had extended barrels (without compensators) in stock - LW did not. The way I figure it, if you're going to get an aftermarket barrel for a pistol, you might as well get one that maximizes velocity - and the 4.45 barrel did the trick + it doesn't protude further than my rail light, which is a good thing.

I think you are asking why didn't I just go with a G20 over a G29? Additional ability to conceal. The G29 (because of the smaller mags/grips) can be concealed much more easily than the G20 - you can still run G20 mags through the G29, but you cannot due the reverse, therefore in my opinion, the G29 has more modularity than the G20. If you want additional velocity, just order the extended barrel: viola; compact do-it-all pistol.


As soon as I made the barrel decision I want to get a chronograph. Just for getting a first idea what to expect from factory ammo. What chronograph did you get?

I went with a competition electronics pro chrono digital. They are on sale at midway right now for under $100. The reason I went with this one is based on a referral from someone - then I looked at the reviews from Midway - so many outstanding reviews.

After that I will get my handload equipment.. which will need some more research on my side.

Thanks again for your tests and the posts. I appreciate it.

You are welcome - by the way handloading this cartridge is a breeze - I mean it does take time (particularly if you hand weigh each powder charge as I do), but it's worth it in my opinion. The reloading equipment that you need to purchase to start reloading is very affordable - more so than people think at first. The key is to NOT buy the reloading "kits". Just buy what you need to buy to make the hand loads.

cwb
09-03-2010, 10:27
OK, i am enviuos of those velocities with the 200 gr XTP!

your data listed 7.8 gr as max, if i read correctly, and your load is 9.6 gr, right?

with a magnum primer, as well. Is there any primer flow, case head expansion, ect? I am curious as i'd like a similar load for my g-20, but i am hesitant to exceed the posted loads by much. My experience with 800X leads me to believe it would be less risky to do so then with, say blue dot or AA#9.

we all shoot a chrony now and then..and the 200 gr XTP's are great chrony medicine, usually a 1 shot stop.....BTDT. :)

I put up 375 rounds of 180 gr 10mm tonight...i have 2 boxes of 200 grainers looking for a good load.
I've gotten up to 1300 fps with #9 over a 200 gr XTP with some pressure signs showing. I have found no issues with consistency with #9 exceeding published loads. YMMV.

I like the looks of that 9.6gr load of 800x, though.

cwb
09-03-2010, 10:29
I went with a competition electronics pro chrono digital. They are on sale at midway right now for under $100. The reason I went with this one is based on a referral from someone - then I looked at the reviews from Midway - so many outstanding reviews.

I have been using one of these for two years and they work great. I have shot mine twice but both times in the metal upright pieces which I simply picked up at a local steel yard for pennies. Nice work!. You are now an official chrono user. :supergrin:

Kegs
09-03-2010, 10:58
OK, i am enviuos of those velocities with the 200 gr XTP!

your data listed 7.8 gr as max, if i read correctly, and your load is 9.6 gr, right?

No. It is 9.4 gr., not 9.6. As stated earlier, DON'T TRY THIS. EVEN AT YOUR OWN RISK.

with a magnum primer, as well. Is there any primer flow, case head expansion, ect? First of all, the magnum primer has a stouter cup than the large pistol primers, so it's gonna take a more pressure to flatten it - and the answer is, there is no discernible difference between this load and much lower powder charges shot in my pistol - so, no. The tighter tolerance in the chamber of the KKM barrel does not really allow for much case head expansion at all. I don't know how much pressure it would take to start showing pressure signs in this barrel, but I do not think I am even close with this charge. However, that does not mean it is "safe" or within pressure limits. IF you consider that the 7.8 grain load is 32,500 psi, and the 10 grain load is at 38,500 psi, that the current SAAMI pressure max is at 37,500 psi - IF (and this is an assumption that may not be correct) the pressure has a linear curve - the 9.4 grain charge is probably very close to 37,000 psi, which is very close to the SAAMI max pressure for which the cartridge is capable of. NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER EVER TRY TO USE THIS LOAD IN A STOCK GLOCK BARREL. It would be a dangerous mistake.

Another thing I will add is that there is a reason that IMR put a max of 7.8 grains of powder on their sheets, and it involves human error. If you make a small error at 7.8, it may not ruin your gun - obviously there is not much room for error as you go higher though.


I am curious as i'd like a similar load for my g-20, but i am hesitant to exceed the posted loads by much. My experience with 800X leads me to believe it would be less risky to do so then with, say blue dot or AA#9.I haven't tried AA#9, but I would not consider working blue dot much higher than the listed maxes. That stuff is hard on my extractor - it really leaves marks on the case rims. Even when getting close to the listed max with 155 xtps. I do not have anywhere near those problems with the 800x - but these loads with the 21# spring I have in there now really THROWS the brass - easily in the neighborhood of 15'-20'...and that's how I know the spring is overrun. It should throw the rounds less than 10' if sprung properly.

we all shoot a chrony now and then..and the 200 gr XTP's are great chrony medicine, usually a 1 shot stop.....BTDT. :) :rofl: Yeah, I'll tell you I had a sick feeling when saw it fly off the table, since I had only had it two days - but I did get a number of rounds through it before I skinned it. That plastic is tough! It takes a lot to rip the jacket off an XTP - and that was enough...anyway, I expect to have it back before too long and continue on.



I put up 375 rounds of 180 gr 10mm tonight...i have 2 boxes of 200 grainers looking for a good load.You MUST work them up - choose a start velocity that you are comfortable with on the mfgrs. listed powder charges and work them up in 0.2gr. increments to a point you feel comfortable with. All pistols, measurement devices and reloading components are going vary - what works in my system may not work in yours, so working up loads slowly is the only way to do it.

cwb
09-03-2010, 11:03
No. It is 9.4 gr., not 9.6. As stated earlier, DON'T TRY THIS. EVEN AT YOUR OWN RISK.


In your post above you said you were up to 9.8 when you shot your chrono and that 9.6 was the most accurate. :dunno:

Kegs
09-03-2010, 11:48
In your post above you said you were up to 9.8 when you shot your chrono and that 9.6 was the most accurate. :dunno:

Sorry for the confusion. THIS is actually what I wrote:

9.4 grains

Shot1 no reading
Shot2 1241
Shot3 1273
Shot4 1256
Shot5 1244
Shot6 1244
Shot7 1246
Shot8 1265
Shot9 1240
Shot10 1244

hi 1273 lo 1240 avg: 1250 es 33 sd 11

*Note: this load had the highest precision of all loads tested on the target*Since I placed the highest precision note between the two loads, I could see how there would be some confusion there, but actually it was the 9.4 loading that had the best precision.

By the way, the term "accurate" means the P.O.A. (point of aim) meets the P.O.I. (point of impact). "Precision" is the term that defines error around the mean.

All my loads are accurate as long as the sights are adjusted properly. :supergrin:

Not all of them are precise however - though the 9.4gr. was the most precise of the rounds I tested...not surprisingly, it has the lowest standard deviation of velocity too. There is a direct relationship there.

Kegs
09-03-2010, 12:07
I've gotten up to 1300 fps with #9 over a 200 gr XTP with some pressure signs showing.

"Up to" as in average for x shots or "up to" as in one or two shots went that fast?

What were your pressure signs?

What sized barrel?

I believe 10gr. 800x will deliver 1300 fps avg. out of my 4.45" barrel. It will go even faster (obviously) out of a 6" (G20) bbl.

McNett has reported the 10gr. load to run 38,500 psi on a different thread.

SAAMI max pressure for 10mm = 37,500.

As soon as I get back setup, I will test it to see if the powder charge vs. velocity continues linear (which it pretty much has the whole test), but I do not believe I will use that hot of a load on a regular basis. That is getting a bit too hot for my comfort level. Most definitely I am increasing my safety measures when I continue on with the 9.8gr. and 10gr. tests...I suspect it will take a whole lot more to blow up the gun, but obviously that is not my intent - the quest was to find an all around stout 10mm round that I can use for hunting/SD, which I believe I have found.

There is an additional quest as well I will be continuing with: Finding a rimfire round that works the best (lowest standard deviation/tightest precision on the target) in the Advantage arms 29/30 conversion - and that is actually a more difficult (and possibly more expensive) task.

I will post all the figures as I continue.

Maine1
09-03-2010, 19:33
After a little digging, i don't think you are as far out as i originally thought. No doubt a stompy, powerful load, but i'd not call it dangerous, really. Time will tell of course, putting 1K of these downrange will tell you the story.

having done quite a bit of load development for XTP's the last several years has left me with a bunch of notes and data on the subject with various loads. The 200 grainer is the elusive one, regardless of powder. AA#9 does not quite do it, posted data for 800x misses the mark by a little, but i believe it was a great choice on your part. The metering is the only issue with this powder, but for a load this hot, one should hand weigh anyway.Data from a few sources lists 200 gr XTP/FMJ data max charges from 7.8- 8.5 grains. The XTP has a longer bearing surface than other bullets of comparable weight, and that has to be taken into consideration, but you have a load that is basically 1 grain hot..with some great performance, a SOLID, repeatable 1200 FPS load with the best bullet going.

You have inspired me to get back on the horse, as after a few years of 1100, 1125, 1138, ect FPS results with given powders, i was ready to just use my good 180 gr load.

Shooting chronographs is an expensive sport. The first one on my part occurred when a friend and i were testing loads. A piece of jacket hit one of the screens, and he laughs at me for being a dip**** and shooting my own chrony..then proceed to step up and put a 44 mag xtp right dead center thru it...Its funny NOW, and it taught me that i want the chrony with the "brains" on a cord separate from the sensors.

So, are you satisfied with the results or are you going to try to develop a load that goes a little further? I mean, i had pretty much settled for a 1150-1175 200 gr xtp, and 1225 should not make a huge difference downrange, but there is something to be said for velocity to spare.

Good work!

Kegs
09-04-2010, 12:03
The XTP has a longer bearing surface than other bullets of comparable weight, and that has to be taken into consideration, but you have a load that is basically 1 grain hot..with some great performance, a SOLID, repeatable 1200 FPS load with the best bullet going. 1250 fps. average :cool: The beauty of the longer bearing surface is that the ballistic coefficient is higher than the other 10mm bullets. This translates into greater retained energy at longer distances. This is a benefit for hunting big game. I haven't tested it yet, but with the way the precision is with this load, I believe hits to the boilermaker of a deer, elk, or moose is going to be probable even out to 100y in the prone position, resting my hand/glove on a firm object (ground, rock, log, etc.) Who needs a stinking rifle if you can close in on the game? :dunno:


So, are you satisfied with the results

Yes, I think so.

or are you going to try to develop a load that goes a little further? Well, I still have 8 more rounds of 9.8gr. and 10 more rounds of 10.0gr. loaded up to shoot, and I will finish them up when I get set back up - but I think I am done testing with this powder/bullet combo. The conclusion that I have come to after everything I have read told me 800x was "the" powder to use for hot development of the 200xtp, and based on what I've seen it looks to be a winner.


I mean, i had pretty much settled for a 1150-1175 200 gr xtp, and 1225 should not make a huge difference downrange, but there is something to be said for velocity to spare.
Good work!

That is true. More velocity = more energy. To develop a load that has high muzzle energy and retains it at all reasonable hunting distances (with reasonable safety) is a positive outcome in my opinion

Maine1
09-04-2010, 18:47
Actually i have had a bit of luck with the 10mm at 100 yards. On a really good day, i can call headshots on a B-27, otherwise, its chest cavity.

Got busy last night and made about 50 test loads for the 10mm. Working in .2 gr increments, i got a pretty solid 1200fps load with 9.3 gr of 800X. I have tried this powder several times, varying primer brands, seating depth, ect, but really was hard pressed to break 1100. I worked up to 9.5 grains with no issues, in fact, the primers looked normal, fired brass slid into a case gauge easily. I segregated the brass so i can go back later tonight and check for case head expansion. I did this with some trepidation, and dissembled the gun regularly to check for any issues, but everything looked fine.
i am not going to push as hard as Kegs did, i am pretty happy to get 1200-1210 FPS.

Now a 50 round test of the load is in order to fine tune it, see if i can get the SD down, check to confirm feeding, ect.

with luck, a year or two from now i will not be on GT saying " i blew my face off with a G-20"!

Thanks, Kegs, for the inspiration. The 200/1200 goal has eluded me for a while, and while i have a good 180 gr load, i REALLY like those 200 gr XTP's.

Maine1
09-05-2010, 02:24
Not trying to hijack Kegs' thread, but here is what i have done thus far..

I am not an expert on case head expansion, so if i am amis someone with some experience correct me. i measured the brass from my test loads, having segregated it according to charge. measuring slightly ahead of the groove was-and i do not have it in front of me-.420-.422. About 1/8" or so from the groove, the case bulged to .424-.425. This was the same on the starting loads, as well as the hottest loads. All brass would fit in a case gauge with no trouble.

For comparison, i took several pieces of brass from the bin of fired brass i had in the shop. These are pretty ho-hum loads for plinking with plated or lead bullets- 1100 or so FPS with a 175-180 grain bullet, nothing special.
the case head expansions was the same, running very close to the aforementioned numbers, sometimes .05" greater on a few pieces.

So..this tells me that the LW barrel does its job of keeping my brass in line, if nothing else. Does this sound right? I am still a little leery of exceeding data. I have been reloading as while, and generally shoot 5-10k rounds a year, but several friends also shoot my ammo- so tend to stick to loads that are under max, for a little cushion in other peoples guns.

I also weighed out the difference in the data, and my load- 1.3 grains. Damn, it does not look like much. I counted it out- 113 flakes of 800X. yes, i was that curious. It looks like a minuscule amount...but i give it respect due to what it does. I am tempted to think "such a small amount of powder would not really cause me problem" but...I know better.

With regard to testing, when i swapped the G-21 to the G-20, i had to wrap my mind around why the 10mm did so much better than the 45. I run the 200 gr XTP in my 45, at about 950 Fps, and have confidence in the load as i have used it a good bit.
To compare the two, i loaded 200 gr XTP's in each caliber to 100 FPS- warm for the 45, and nearly asleep for the 10mm. I shot a 6-7" pine tree. the 45 went in about 5" and expanded pretty well. The 10mm ripped right thru it, and kept going....HMM.
And this is before i compared them for shooting distance.

That sectional density makes a big difference.

To night i loaded up 48 more loads, this time with the same powder weight, splitting the difference in the max load i tried, and where i began to be satisfied with the velocity. We will see what the chrony tells us tomorrow.

Kegs
09-05-2010, 08:25
i got a pretty solid 1200fps load with 9.3 gr of 800X.

What barrel/length/and primers?



i am not going to push as hard as Kegs did, i am pretty happy to get 1200-1210 FPS.

I might consider easing up on the powder a bit too. I really don't need the extra 50fps - even at 9.0 grains, I had the SD down pretty good (12 vs. 11) - and there is still plenty of go power (with less pressure) - but I realize as soon as the temp drops, so will the velocity - and I think why not have as much energy as I can get out of this puppy...within reason!

I think most of the time, obtaining a low SD is loading the powder in the case a few flakes of powder at a time - and then watch the little white bar on the scale meet up with the other line perfectly. I think I could make it even tighter by weighing brass and sorting it - but I had a bunch of primed cases that I had not sorted already - so I just used them.

I have to say that I am a little hesitant to reload these cases. I might just send them in as once fired brass and buy new brass continually to make these nuke loads with.



Now a 50 round test of the load is in order to fine tune it, see if i can get the SD down, check to confirm feeding, ect.

Where were you at with the 9.3 gr. loads? There has been someone else in the IMR thread to mention 9.3gr. was the best shooting of the loads he tried as well. I can't imagine 0.1gr. is going to make much of a difference in performance, and different guns are most definitely going to perform differently, I am starting to believe 9.0-9.4 is a sweet spot with this powder...



with luck, a year or two from now i will not be on GT saying " i blew my face off with a G-20"!

A very avid tester worked up 800x 0.1gr. at a time all the way to 14.2gr. in a barstow barrel (G20) to produce case bulges and noted he had to stop the workup at that point. I do not know what components he was using other than the powder. I do not recommend anyone try this at all - ever - but because someone did, it puts a perspective on the dangers of pushing this cartridge to the max. I feel 9.4gr. is pushing it very hard - it just happened to show a sweet spot for my pistol, which I like. :supergrin:

...but yeah, I'm with ya' - hoping not to blow my face off (or hand off) or hell, even blowing the extractor out or mag apart! :wow:

Thanks, Kegs, for the inspiration. The 200/1200 goal has eluded me for a while, and while i have a good 180 gr load, i REALLY like those 200 gr XTP's. I'm not the first one to experiment with this or even at this level, I just tried it with my pistol and now realize that this round can produce plenty of more power than what Norma originally reported.

I wish I had pressure testing equipment...but can't swing that! Oh well!

Maine1
09-05-2010, 12:31
LW standard length g-20 barrel. Federal Large pistol magnum primers- they really seem to help with a consistent burn.

Kegs
09-05-2010, 17:41
Federal Large pistol magnum primers

There is the primary difference in velocity (mostly I think).

Maine1
09-05-2010, 18:13
Probably- made it a clean burning load, incomparison to others. Just need a to punch the bore quickly and a wipe down.

Nearly out of 800x :(

CanyonMan
09-05-2010, 19:29
*NOTE: DONT TRY THIS EVEN AT YOUR OWN RISK*

8/29's data:Conditions: Sunny, hot, windy, 88F, around 50% RH.

Components: same as 8/28

8.4grains

Shot1 1151
Shot2 1121
Shot3 1156
Shot4 1142
Shot5 1164
Shot6 1138
Shot7 1110
Shot8 1122
Shot9 1144
Shot10 1195

hi 1195 lo 1121 average: 1150 es=74 SD=22

8.6 & 8.8 grain strings:

errors (due to heat/ direct sunlight on unit)? 8.6gr. started reading triple digit numbers, then 8.8 gr. started reading in the 1400 ranges with too many repeats - Sounds great, but I knew this wasn't right.

I estimate that the avg. of 8.6gr ~1175 fps and that 8.8gr ~1200 fps

-covered unit from sun using cardboard as suggested in chrono manual (except directly above light gates) and came back after lunch about 2 hours, and re-tested the .22 ammo to test for consistency.

.22 Rem. golden bullet:

Shot1 960
Shot2 823
Shot3 819
Shot4 925
Shot5 920
Shot6 858
Shot7 804
Shot8 916
Shot9 no reading
Shot10 812

hi 960 lo 804 average: 811 es: 156 SD=56

This seems to be acceptably consistent with the prior's day measurements - so on we go...

9.0 grains

Shot1 1214
Shot2 1233
Shot3 1224
Shot4 1208
Shot5 1227
Shot6 1212
Shot7 1244
Shot8 1218
Shot9 no reading
Shot10 no reading

hi 1244 lo 1208 average: 1222 es=36 S.D.=12

9.2 grains

Shot1 1204
Shot2 1247
Shot3 1246
Shot4 1223
Shot5 1278
Shot6 1223
Shot7 1234
Shot8 1207
Shot9 1209
Shot10 1219

hi 1278 lo 1204 avg: 1229 es 74 SD=22

9.4 grains

Shot1 no reading
Shot2 1241
Shot3 1273
Shot4 1256
Shot5 1244
Shot6 1244
Shot7 1246
Shot8 1265
Shot9 1240
Shot10 1244

hi 1273 lo 1240 avg: 1250 es 33 sd 11

*Note: this load had the highest precision of all loads tested on the target*

9.6 grains

Shot1 1261
Shot2 1224
Shot3 1261
Shot4 1257
Shot5 1275
Shot6 1255
Shot7 1272
Shot8 1307
Shot9 1263
Shot10 1239

hi 1307 lo 1224 average 1261 es 83 s.d. 21

9.8 gr.

Shot1 (1278 - if I recall correctly)
Shot2 went right through the top of the plastic case of the chornograph ripping the bullet in (my estimation) 1/4 and putting a nice scrape/hole in the top of the case about 8"-12" long so that 1/4 of the lead AND JACKET(this is an XTP we're talking about - tough jackets!) was sitting in the bottom of the chronograph and 3/4 of it went downrange.

Parts of the bullet hit and or moved some critical components (including splitting the power wire from the battery box) on its way through, which rendered the chronograph from reading further.

As I mentioned earlier, I am a "green" chronograph user. I built the chronograph table before putting the chronograph on it and looking through the area in between the bars/light screens at the target.

After the table was all set, and the chronograph was placed up there, I looked through it and found that my sights placed my bullet only about 4" above the case of the chronograph. I knew this was a little close, but really didn't think I was going to hit it. The first day I put a backpack up on the pistol rest to "raise up" my hold a little...I didn't think that helped much, so the second day I left it off and shot on the foam pad I have there. Experience shapes wisdom - Next time I will have it set up so the bullet goes higher above the unit, so if I hit anything, its going to be a sun screen. (cheaper to replace)

I did not take any pictures, due to the embarrassment. I somewhat regret not taking pictures of this now. :dunno: Oh well. live and learn.

I contacted the chrono mfgr. for a schematic and parts, but they didn't offer one - they suggested sending it in for repair instead - which they said was cheaper than replacing it, so that's what I did. I expect $30-50 worth of damages based on judging the parts that got nailed, but hopefully the jarring from getting thrown off the table by the bullet didn't kill parts I didn't see damage to...

I have also ordered a set of 23# springs from wolff. I expect all this will be in around 2 weeks time for more testing.

I have loaded the 800x charges up to 10 grains (I was almost there), which I will test once I get back set up. I'm not going above 10 grains - I believe 10 grains is beyond SAAMI pressure specs.

I did not see any signs of overpressure during the entire test, but recoil started overriding the 21# spring to the point of a few bouts of ejection failure around 9.4 grains.

Before I get back set up I think I am going to load some more 9.4 grain charges to do some milk jug testing on. I am interested to see the penetration factor on these and also whether or not the jacket stays on through the thin plastic & water at this speed - would further like to see how far the bullet is peeled back. I am going to weigh and sort the brass this time - and eye the scale as carefully as I can this next time to get as precise of a load as I can and see how tight I can get these.

If testing works out well, this may become my new pet load. :supergrin:





Kegs, perhaps i was to blind to see it, but what barrel are you using in all these test of yours man ?


I been running a pretty stout load of Blue Dot, and AA# 9 even 2400 in the 10mm G20 and G29 for years. (well the bluedot and 2400 anyway just started the AA9) I do get tired of the hog belly's on the brass. I have not had the luck as some seem to have with stock barrels not leaving the buldge. I did not notice , like I said, what barrel your using.

AA# 9 I been running 14.7grs and a tad more at times, and the 800X is really good at 9.4grs. i do not see a real need to push past 9.8grs.

Bluedot 10.5/11.0grs has done real well for me. All this is in a stock barrel. Not close to my load notes right now so just generalizing with ya for conversation sake a moment.

BTW, I guided hunts for a very long time, and am like you, a hunting nut, small to x-large. ha.

Not to ruffle feathers, but I am not a fan of the 10mm for elk and moose, but have friends that use them.

I stick with my 45LC and 300/335gr Hard Cat bullet in Ruger BH for 1150/1200fps. This will go through the shoulder of a broadside elk and out the other shoulder at 100 yds.. Good enough for me. haha.

****Edited to add this: Kegs I know your lined up to do this the way you want to, and I am in NO wise trying to tell you different. Just a suggestion though from 50 years of this. (not in a Glock obviously that has been for 14 years). I load 200gr Hard Cast from Cast performance bullets in the G20/G29. I like XTP's and they are very good rounds for hunting, BUT, using the Hard Cast 20/21 bhn bullets will achieve very deep penetration over what the XTP's will give. A man will need this deep penetration on game this size, especially using this type firearm. Yes, the XTP's are VERY good, and do a great job in the penetration department, (i know) but they will NOT do what a 20/21 bhn 200gr Hard Cast will do, and they(the HC) will do it at tad lower vels.

The goal here, penetration. Running 10.7 +, bluedot in my stock 6" Glock G20 barrel with a 200gr HC bullet gas checked, will be most devistating at 50 yards (would be my suggested max on elk with this caliber) with tremendous penetration.

Again, i am trying to rain on your parade, this IS NOT my intent. Just a friendly suggestion from someone that has been doing this for for a very long time with various bullet designs and calibers,and guns, and mostly with all hard cast, and XTP's. The HC will out run the XTP's (fine as they are) in the penetration dept. Just a suggestion and thought for ya in your hunting quest 'with this type of caliber and barrel length' on this type game.

I am not one of these "do it my way or your wrong dudes," but have done a thing or two, and learned from them, and still don't know a dang thing man... haha !

Good luck


Good hunting


CanyonMan

Maine1
09-06-2010, 00:44
Hey canyonman! Nice for you to chime in, i was going to PM you about this, but you beat me to it. Good to see you are still a 10mm advocate!

take care.

CanyonMan
09-06-2010, 07:43
Hey canyonman! Nice for you to chime in, i was going to PM you about this, but you beat me to it. Good to see you are still a 10mm advocate!

take care.


I guess I was quick on the draw last night.. haha

Yeh, I still lke and shoot the 10's, just mostly for fun and deer use (some times). I don't think I'll ever stop playin around with them. In fact I am getttig the drools for the Colt Delata Elite, (being that a carry a M1911 45acp) it would be really nice to have the 10 in a 1911 style. My hog legs and 1911's come first amigo, but I do still wrap my paws around the 10's as well. Man their fun ain't they ? ;0

Hope you are doing well amigo !
Stay safe .


CM

hypnagogue
09-06-2010, 08:39
I like XTP's and they are very good rounds for hunting, BUT, using the Hard Cast 20/21 bhn bullets will achieve very deep penetration over what the XTP's will give. A man will need this deep penetration on game this size, especially using this type firearm. Yes, the XTP's are VERY good, and do a great job in the penetration department, (i know) but they will NOT do what a 20/21 bhn 200gr Hard Cast will do, and they(the HC) will do it at tad lower vels.


Therein lies the irony: Colorado handgun hunters are required to use expanding bullets. What you say here is 100% correct, and illegal.

Kegs
09-06-2010, 09:15
Kegs, perhaps i was to blind to see it, but what barrel are you using in all these test of yours man ?


I been running a pretty stout load of Blue Dot, and AA# 9 even 2400 in the 10mm G20 and G29 for years. (well the bluedot and 2400 anyway just started the AA9) I do get tired of the hog belly's on the brass. I have not had the luck as some seem to have with stock barrels not leaving the buldge. I did not notice , like I said, what barrel your using.

Whoa - did I leave that out? It's a KKM precision extended barrel on a G29. The barrel measures 4.45" from the rim of a seated case to the bore.


AA# 9 I been running 14.7grs and a tad more at times, and the 800X is really good at 9.4grs. i do not see a real need to push past 9.8grs.

Bluedot 10.5/11.0grs has done real well for me. All this is in a stock barrel. Not close to my load notes right now so just generalizing with ya for conversation sake a moment. In my experience, a stock glock barrel will not allow for hot loads because the chamber leaves too much space outside of the brass - your brass will rupture far before you get to hot loads.

DO NOT TRY THIS LOAD IN A STOCK BARREL. DO NOT EVEN TRY YOUR START LOAD AT MORE THAN 10% BELOW MFGR'S LISTED MAX POWDER CHARGE. Chances are, you'll experience brass rupturing (glock smilies) at less than the mfgr's listed max charge. I know I did!

I Appreciate your zeal in your quest. I think your in the middle of your answer, you just need to step back and look at it and say, "there it is..." Some times more ain't better. ;) Sure, but I already had the rounds to be shot in strings loaded up to 10 grs. before I killed the chrono. It would be pointless not to use them. I think 1300 fps average is what I will see @ 10 gr.

BTW, I guided hunts for a very long time, and am like you, a hunting nut, small to x-large. ha.

Not to ruffle feathers, no way, but I am not a fan of the 10mm for elk and moose, but have friends that use them.No problem. The 10mm will do the trick with the right load. I have 100% faith that this round will level either with one shot - and it won't be any different of affect than using a .338 win mag to kill one with. Bullet hits, elk looks at gun, walks/runs a few yards and then plop - dead.

I stick with my 45LC and 300/335gr Hard Cat bullet in Ruger BH for 1150/1200fps. This will go through the shoulder of a broadside elk and out the other shoulder at 100 yds.. Good enough for me. haha. I wish ya well on what your doing, and with "close range shots from that G29", and good placement, I hope ya get your elk if this is your goal/quest. I gotta say you deserve it man with all the serious effort your pouring into this. ;)Thank you.

****Edited to add this: Kegs I know your lined up to do this the way you want to, and I am in NO wise trying to tell you different. Just a suggestion though from 50 years of this. (not in a Glock obviously that has been for 14 years). I load 200gr Hard Cast from Cast performance bullets in the G20/G29. I like XTP's and they are very good rounds for hunting, BUT, using the Hard Cast 20/21 bhn bullets will achieve very deep penetration over what the XTP's will give. A man will need this deep penetration on game this size, especially using this type firearm. Yes, the XTP's are VERY good, and do a great job in the penetration department, (i know) but they will NOT do what a 20/21 bhn 200gr Hard Cast will do, and they(the HC) will do it at tad lower vels. Yup, I have no doubt you are correct.

The goal here, penetration. I do not mean wimpy loads and vels. But running 10.7 +, bluedot in my stock 6" Glock G20 barrel Uh, wait right there. Where did you get a stock 6" glock G20 barrel? Aren't G20 barrels 4.6"? :dunno:


with a 200gr HC bullet gas checked, will be most devistating at 50 yards (would be my suggested max on elk with this caliber) with tremendous penetration.

Again, do not think i am trying to rain on your parade amigo, this IS NOT my intent. Just a friendly suggestion from someone that has been doing this for for a very long time with various bullet designs and calibers,and guns, and mostly with all hard cast, and XTP's. The HC will out run the XTP's (fine as they are) in the penetration dept. Just a suggestion and thought for ya in your hunting quest 'with this type of caliber and barrel length' on this type game.

I am not one of these "do it my way or your wrong dudes," but have done a thing or two, and learned from them, and still don't know a dang thing man... haha !

Good luck


Good hunting


CanyonMan Penetration is a good goal - no doubt, but it is not my only goal for big animals like elk and moose. Energy delivery is a primary goal as well. The hard cast lead, and FMJ bullets (they do the same thing btw) will out penetrate ANY hollow point bullet - so on big game, they have a greater ability of going through bone. However, as you said above - when they pass through (without hitting bone) they pass through at (in this case) .40", which is a big hole - but - and here is the kicker - they did not deliver as much energy to the target.

The XTP will deliver far more energy in such a situation, and do it leaving a .65" hole. If the xtp hits a bone, it will still likely break it, but as the energy drops, the bullet may not pass through - which is okay, because the energy did the job. This is why I chose the 200 gr. XTP bullet - the penetration is very good - the expansion is very good - the rate of expansion is excellent (for this purpose).

AZBru88
09-06-2010, 09:17
Therein lies the irony: Colorado handgun hunters are required to use expanding bullets. What you say here is 100% correct, and illegal.
I would suggest using Montana Gold JHP's in Colorado. No one will say they aren't meant to expand because they are JHP's. But they are known for not expanding and giving great penetration.

AZBru88
09-06-2010, 09:22
Kegs Glock put out a 6" "hunting barrel" (http://glockmeister.com/product_info.php?cPath=1_2&products_id=424)
Roll down the list I think it retails for $175

CanyonMan
09-06-2010, 10:59
Deleted by

CM

CanyonMan
09-06-2010, 11:27
Well not to go through the whole thing here. I see we greatly differ in our ideas of a good hunting bullet and caliber for elk size game. ;)

I never said that HC pass through without hitting bone man, I said they will go through both shoulders on elk and that at 100yds from a 45LC 300gr HC bullet, and will drive same through end to end and smash bone like twigs. Two holes to bleed much better than one.

If I may quote YOU here:

The 10mm will do the trick with the right load. I have 100% faith that this round will level either with one shot - and it won't be any different of affect than using a .338 win mag to kill one with. Bullet hits, elk looks at gun, walks/runs a few yards and then plop - dead.

Man this is not at all accurate my friend. No way we're going to think one shot drops on an elk with a 10mm G29 unless you are really close in. And it will not 'even' resemble a .338 win mag. :wow:


Quote:

Penetration is a good goal - no doubt, but it is not my only goal for big animals like elk and moose. Energy delivery is a primary goal as well. The hard cast lead, and FMJ bullets (they do the same thing btw) will out penetrate ANY hollow point bullet - so on big game, they have a greater ability of going through bone. However, as you said above - when they pass through (without hitting bone) they pass through at (in this case) .40", which is a big hole - but - and here is the kicker - they did not deliver as much energy to the target.


No sir, the FMJ will NOT came close to doing what a hard cast bullet will do. Have you ever seen the meplat on a true hard cast bullet? (see pics botom of page) I would have had more pics but GT function is not working for me here...


I bought the 6" Glock barrel years ago from Glock. There not that hard to find ! ;) I have been using these loads above amigo in the stock Glock barrels for a looooong time. I do get hog bellies, but they iron right out in the resizng die. No smilies. I have had no pressure problems, no flattened primers, no ruptures. I've never had one problem in the stock barrels ever, except the stupid hog belly. ha.

I shoot the 200gr HC in the 6" and the stock length OEM and at 100yds they are very accurate. They are very accurate even past that, but that is my "deer" limit with the 10mm 'even with this load'. Yes LW barrels or KKM are better supported, but it has never hurt a thing in my stock glock barrels, (again, i do highly reccomend the AM barrels for this stuff though).

The hard cast is the reason you will not find many big game hunters (hangun wise) going after large game with JHP's. Even on dangerous game such as Grizz and brownies, a big bore with a big chunk of hard cast is what most use in a side arm. This has been my 25 year experience as a former guide at least. The huge meplat on a HC bullet will cut through like a cookie ctter and smash bone like a freight train. A FMJ does NOT have the same effect. Now, even if your XTP (remember i like them) it will, with a lung shot, perhaps in that G29 do ok, but I assure you that a HC with a lung shot will break ribs and come out the other side and leave to bleeding holes usually at 100yds. Do not confuse this energy dump with a service round hand gun to a 338 win mag or a larger bore hog leg shooting HC bullets. It is NOT the same. ;)

But I would move in close on that elk with the G29 and the XTP. (suggestion).

No I am not a flat lander. Ranched and coyboyed on one of the largest ranches in Oklahoma (home) up near the Colo/N.M. Kansas Border all my life. Lived in Northern N.M. a while and now in the wilds of far W. Texas ranch country.




PICS: are left to right... 335gr 45LC, 275gr 44mag, and 200 gr 10mm. All Hard Cast.


CM

CanyonMan
09-06-2010, 12:44
Therein lies the irony: Colorado handgun hunters are required to use expanding bullets. What you say here is 100% correct, and illegal.

Can you please share where you got the info that a 'hard cast' hand gun bullet is Illegal in Colorado ?

Thanks.


CM

Maine1
09-06-2010, 13:58
Kegs, while you and CM may disagree on bullet design, he does have much experience with the larger critters and reloading for the 10 and many other calibers. he is well worth listening top, and has helped me out in years past. He is your friend, trust me.

The cast bullet was THE bullet for serious hunting before the HP was developed. I am not a big handgun hunter on large game, but i do follow it from a guns/bullets/ reloads perspective- handloader magazine will do a comparison article on HP Vs various cast bullets for hunting conditions, and the CB wins. Skip over to castbullets.com, and you will find many very experienced guys hunting all sorts of things with cast bullets, and doing very well.

XTP's are my choice as an all around bullet for serious use, to include shooting larger animals, and incidental hunting- as it does very well. For specific hunting, i would want a cast bullet with as big a flat as would feed.
we do not have elk in ME, but we do have a moose or two. They have been nailed with any number of calibers, handguns included, but i would be hesitant to chase them with something less than a 44./45lc/454. Sure it can be done with a 10mm, so can bear defense.

speaking of that, CM, does that bullet pictured feed in your 10mm? thats a mag of walking death is it does!

Kegs, i have no doubt that with the right placement, and at closer ranges, you'll get your elk...but i also gathered that the additional challenge is what you wanted, am i right?

Anyhoo, good job on the loads...helped push me out of a rut if nothing else! and let me know how the load performs for you. I'll test it on a steer or two in the next year or so.

CanyonMan
09-06-2010, 14:31
Kegs, while you and CM may disagree on bullet design, he does have much experience with the larger critters and reloading for the 10 and many other calibers. he is well worth listening top, and has helped me out in years past. He is your friend, trust me.

The cast bullet was THE bullet for serious hunting before the HP was developed. I am not a big handgun hunter on large game, but i do follow it from a guns/bullets/ reloads perspective- handloader magazine will do a comparison article on HP Vs various cast bullets for hunting conditions, and the CB wins. Skip over to castbullets.com, and you will find many very experienced guys hunting all sorts of things with cast bullets, and doing very well.

XTP's are my choice as an all around bullet for serious use, to include shooting larger animals, and incidental hunting- as it does very well. For specific hunting, i would want a cast bullet with as big a flat as would feed.
we do not have elk in ME, but we do have a moose or two. They have been nailed with any number of calibers, handguns included, but i would be hesitant to chase them with something less than a 44./45lc/454. Sure it can be done with a 10mm, so can bear defense.

speaking of that, CM, does that bullet pictured feed in your 10mm? thats a mag of walking death is it does!


Kegs, i have no doubt that with the right placement, and at closer ranges, you'll get your elk...but i also gathered that the additional challenge is what you wanted, am i right?

Anyhoo, good job on the loads...helped push me out of a rut if nothing else! and let me know how the load performs for you. I'll test it on a steer or two in the next year or so.



Maine1,

Hey amigo, Yes, those 200gr Hard Cast feed throught he G20/29 as fast as I can pull the trigger ! ha.


Left to right: 10mm 180gr FMJ. 200gr 10mm XTP. 200gr 10mm HC, and 10mm 200gr HC loaded up.

http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab256/yrag5951/GT%20stuff/cid__0906001521.jpg


Left to right: 10mm 180gr FMJ. 200gr 10mm HC, 200gr 10mm XTP. and 10mm 200gr HC loaded up.


http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab256/yrag5951/GT%20stuff/cid__0906001524.jpg


Don't know why the pics feature ain't workin for me on here. Sorry guys, have to look at my photo bucket links. I just shot these with a cell phone. ;)


Again, Maine 1. They feed perfectly, and if i watch every 30/40 shots for fouling and all is cool. never a problem. To cover my six here, and help others to be even "more safe," I "do suggest" an after market barrel like LOne Wolf or KKM to shoot the lead through "ESPECIALLY IF," you are shooting nuke lods. I do fine without them, but brass does better down the line with them, and it is safier I suppose, so that is my disclaimer. haha


Hope you been doing well buddy.


Stay safe.


CanyonMan








CM

Kegs
09-06-2010, 14:32
Kegs Glock put out a 6" "hunting barrel" (http://glockmeister.com/product_info.php?cPath=1_2&products_id=424)
Roll down the list I think it retails for $175

Interesting! I did not know they made these.

Kegs
09-06-2010, 14:41
Thanks Canyonman and Maine1!

The place I have in mind to hunt elk with this combo is going to allow shots in the 25-75y range. No further shots will be warranted.

I'm don't plan on hunting elk or Moose this year - but may go deer hunting - depends on what is going on this autumn. At any rate, I'll use this round for hunting big game no matter what.

BTW - I am not a fan of the montana gold bullet - I have shot some loaded up in the Double tap ammo - I have seen how they perform through water jug testing and well - no thanks.

CanyonMan
09-06-2010, 14:58
Thanks Canyonman and Maine1!

The place I have in mind to hunt elk with this combo is going to allow shots in the 25-75y range. No further shots will be warranted.

I'm don't plan on hunting elk or Moose this year - but may go deer hunting - depends on what is going on this autumn. At any rate, I'll use this round for hunting big game no matter what.

BTW - I am not a fan of the montana gold bullet - I have shot some loaded up in the Double tap ammo - I have seen how they perform through water jug testing and well - no thanks.



;)


As I said. Be safe. And enjoy the mountains !




CM

Kegs
09-06-2010, 15:15
I have to post this thread - you guys will love it. :supergrin:

That sixgun guy is awesome. I hate it. Because now I am going to have to learn how to cast lead. :rofl:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/105190-cast-vs-jacketed-bullets-whitetails.html

CanyonMan
09-06-2010, 15:56
Kegs,

you don't have to cast your own man. I started that back in the early 70's. I got sick of it. (you might like it). Not for me. I get all my hard Cast from Cast Performance, Lead Heads, Hunters supply, and Beartooth bullets. These are about the best in the industry. JR owner operator of N.M. based hunters suppy and I are good friends. He makes one of the best Hard Cast bullets around. Here is a pick of him with a god mulie kill at home in N.M. from a hof leg with a Hard Cast bullet.

Casting can be real productive, don't get me wrong. I just do not have time.


My friend JR. Owner of Hunters Supply Hard Cast bullet Co. N.M.

http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab256/yrag5951/GT%20stuff/MuleDeer005.jpg

http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab256/yrag5951/GT%20stuff/DSC01540.jpg

http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab256/yrag5951/GT%20stuff/cid__0905001737a.jpg


Stay Safe



CanyonMan

hypnagogue
09-06-2010, 17:15
Can you please share where you got the info that a 'hard cast' hand gun bullet is Illegal in Colorado ?

The Colorado Big Game annual, page 4, "Legal Hunting Methods"

7. HANDGUNS
a. Barrel must be min. 4 inches long.
b. Must use a min. .24-caliber (6 mm) diameter expanding bullet.
c. Shoulder stocks or attachments prohibited.
d. Must use a cartridge or load that produces min. energy of 550-ft. lbs.
at 50 yds. as rated by manufacturer.
It's been the way for as long as I've been hunting.

CanyonMan
09-06-2010, 17:47
The Colorado Big Game annual, page 4, "Legal Hunting Methods"

It's been the way for as long as I've been hunting.


Yeah I knew that was where you were going to pull it up, just wanted to make sure bud. Man I been illegal for 40 years then... :faint:

The problem with this is, as I and others have discussed this for years and years is: must be an expanding bullet ! Leaves room there for error, mistakes, open to interpretation. Does not say JHP. Says expanding bullet. Now, the HC wil pass right through most of the time, but not always, and some times hitting bone they will mush. Depends on the BHN of the bullet. so then, an 18bhn cast bullet will give some expansion. Now we have an "expanding bullet' and still no clear word it has to be a JHP. Written very shrewdly or stupidly, but I can say, that most wardens will not enforce that against the cast bullet handgun shooter. It is just to fine a line. ;)

For the record: I am NOT advocating breaking the law. I am simply saying that for as long as I have been doing this, there has never been a problem with a warden arguing the cast bullet issue, at least not in my experience. This is mostly a concern with FMJ.

Not being smart here amigo, not at all, just saying they usually do not get uptight about cast, but will burn you at the stake for FMJ. ha.


I do like, as i shared with Keg's the heavy XTP's they are good penetrators in heavy big bore hoglegs like 44mag and up. but again, FMJ seems to be the major concern of this NOT CLEAR rule here in the regs.

If this make no sense to ya... Your not alone amigo, I hear ya. haha.


Thanks ! I am going to look ito this in a day or two as my brother hunts Colorado. I am curious as to how things are since I've been there last. We got a few contacts so I wantto see if it is the way it used to be with the wardens on this border line lingo in the regs.

Any new news, or something nteresting, I'll post it.


Stay safe


CM

CanyonMan
09-06-2010, 17:51
double post....

CM

Maine1
09-06-2010, 18:05
we have similar laws here. FMJ is not recomended, we all know why.

"expanding bullet" to me means a bullet intended to expand. (duh) Not that they always do, or it is always good. i shot a deer with 45 HP loads, in the neck and spine...and he got up...albiet slowly, and started walking off.
bullets failed to go deep enough.
had i been running my current load-- he'd have stayed laying down. with cast, the same.

But it was factory ammo....i did not know any better at the time.

hypnagogue
09-06-2010, 18:21
The problem with this is, as I and others have discussed this for years and years is: must be an expanding bullet ! Leaves room there for error, mistakes, open to interpretation. Does not say JHP. Says expanding bullet.


I agree totally. It is open to interpretation. Understand that I am not accusing anybody of anything, but in my interpretation and experience "hard cast" is the opposite of "expanding". In my limited knowledge and experience, hard cast bullets can be recovered, pushed through a sizer, and used again. That's very close to the definition of non-expanding, in my interpretation.

Also understand that I think that wide-flat-nose hard cast bullets are superior in every way for the purposes of hunting big game. They cut a deeper, wider channel than JHP. They are my bear defense bullet-of-choice. I carried them this morning while hiking. (New moon = bear encounter day.) I would fully support a change in the law to allow "hunting specialty" bullets of all types.


I am simply saying that for as long as I have been doing this, there has never been a problem with a warden arguing the cast bullet issue, at least not in my experience.

Wardens are usually good guys. I had a warden teach my hunter's ed course way back when, and he made a point of taking the class through increasingly obscure "ethical vs legal" hunting scenarios. He was extremely critical of the students who would choose the "legal" option when the "ethical" option was crystal clear. He was also clear that there would still be a price to pay.

His point: "I'd rather pay the fine and be able to live with myself." I get that.

Truth be told, I think the 10mm 200XTP at 1200+ fps is a great choice, so I don't see it as a "ethical vs legal" kind of situation.

CanyonMan
09-06-2010, 19:15
I agree totally. It is open to interpretation. Understand that I am not accusing anybody of anything, but in my interpretation and experience "hard cast" is the opposite of "expanding". In my limited knowledge and experience, hard cast bullets can be recovered, pushed through a sizer, and used again. That's very close to the definition of non-expanding, in my interpretation. Wardens are usually good guys. I had a warden teach my hunter's ed course way back when, and he made a point of taking the class through increasingly obscure "ethical vs legal" hunting scenarios. He was extremely critical of the students who would choose the "legal" option when the "ethical" option was crystal clear. He was also clear that there would still be a price to pay.

His point: "I'd rather pay the fine and be able to live with myself." I get that.

Truth be told, I think the 10mm 200XTP at 1200+ fps is a great choice, so I don't see it as a "ethical vs legal" kind of situation. Also understand that I think that wide-flat-nose hard cast bullets are superior in every way for the purposes of hunting big game. They cut a deeper, wider channel than JHP. They are my bear defense bullet-of-choice. I carried them this morning while hiking. (New moon = bear encounter day.) I would fully support a change in the law to allow "hunting specialty" bullets of all types.




Well, when I know the right thing, I am captain ethical i assure you. I am very difficult to get along with in life because of folks with bad ethics and morals. If they ain't right, I want nothing to do with them... The spirit of the law on the subject matter here as I said, has always been (for me) not a problem, since cast bullets will mush, and therefore that is expasion. I know that sounds shrewd, but again, as long as the wardens are fine with it, so am I. ;)

I wish they would re-write that though !
Oh well, no reason to continue on. It is what it is, and we obey the law we know to obey, and if there are those that allow the spirit of the law, then so be it. ;)


Thanks amigo.




CM

Kegs
09-08-2010, 09:39
Well the Ghost rocket 3.5 connector came in yesterday and I am planning on installing it today. I wish I would have had one of those orange backplates, but because I don't I may wind up making one. I am going to use the "Dave Spaulding cut" on the TCT and take it nice and slow so I get just enough overtravel to make it safe for defensive purposes (reliability).

I'm looking forward to seeing just how nice this connector makes the trigger feel. :supergrin:

Kegs
09-08-2010, 16:14
Just got word that my 23# Wolff springs are being sent out, which means they should be here Friday.

Now...waiting on that chrony.

I installed the Ghost Rocket 3.5# connector - it really was a piece of cake with a dremel and steel cutting disc, which I already had - It took me about 1 hour WITHOUT their custom plate (I just made a plate out of plastic of the same thickness - but it turns out I didn't need it anyway - first cut was perfect! (got lucky there). I used the Dave Spaulding cut on the TCT - I no longer have any over travel, and the pistol seems to engage/disengage the sear without any hitches - which is a very good thing. I still haven't fired it yet however, so I am going to use the AA kit to fire the unit and see how it resets - supposedly the reset is supposed to be similar to a 1911 - we'll see.

At any rate, I think this connector makes for a slightly smoother trigger with a tad more loading (relative to the LWD 3.5# connector) before the sear disengages - and then there is no more room for the trigger to travel - which ought to help out in the precision department a tad.

Kegs
09-09-2010, 06:00
Well I tested the trigger with the AA and the setback is awesome. WAY better than the LWD connector. I think I am going to take a hair off of the metal to see if the build up before the sear disengages goes away - if it does, and there is a touch more overtravel, it should be just as good as I can get it with this connector. :supergrin:

JTknives
09-09-2010, 08:09
I have for about the last 5-6 months been developing my hunting loads for my G20. i have tested 200gr XTP quite a bit and like them very much but not as much as my 200-205gr WFN i designed. I quickly realized that when i take my elk this year i need something that has great penetration, more so then what the XTP will deliver. So i designed a 200gr WFN that Would do just what i want. and after many months of research i finished my design and made a mold. I'm a machinist so i made the mold my self. my cast boolits preform Amazing and has great accuracy and velocity. here is a pic of the boolits them selves.
http://www.jtcustomknives.com/calendar/files/1/boolits.jpg

when i say i get good accuracy i mean it. when i go to the range i use little post-it notes as my targets. here is my target from my last range visit, this postit note is 2.75" x 2.75"
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs606.snc4/58609_1600166171059_1443189422_31605925_1299508_n.jpg

I have pushed the 200gr XTP's up to 1500fps and thy hold together but i feel more comfortable taking large game with a WFN like mine. you will notice that my boolit has a different nose profile then the WFN boolits from double tap. my meplat (flat nose) is 72% where double taps is 80%. 65-70% is the sweet spot for WFN boolits any more then that and velocity will drop off quickly and you loose accuracy once you start stretching out to 100+ yards. this boolits holds velocity great out to any range i would feel comfortable taking an elk and here in Utah i have to hold a minimum of 500ft/lbs at 100 yards. At 1300fps which i can easily reach, it will hold 500ft/lbs at 170yards at a velocity of 1066fps. it do not go subsonic till 130yards and I'm still holding 546ft/lbs at that range. so because of all the studying and testing i have done i will be taking my elk with my WFN cast boolits. Expanding is expanding, if it expands a little then its an expanding boolit period. thy don't say well it has to expand at least 25% of its original size, thy just say expanding which does not mean HP.

Kegs
09-09-2010, 14:02
here is a pic of the boolits them selves.
http://www.jtcustomknives.com/calendar/files/1/boolits.jpg

I like the looks of those!

thy don't say well it has to expand at least 25% of its original size, thy just say expanding which does not mean HP.

True! :supergrin:

I just got back from my range - testing out this new install of the ghost rocket 3.5# connector. I tested it on the AA conversion kit & the 10mm w/ the 9.4gr. loads.

I am still getting used to this load and the trigger (connector installed yesterday), and I must add that shooting a load this powerful out of such a small gun (g29) is going to take some getting used to. I am catching myself flinching a little from this cannonball.


I think this connector should be called the ghost 5# connector by the way, because it doesn't break at 3.5#, that's for sure! (I wish it did)

CanyonMan
09-09-2010, 16:34
I have for about the last 5-6 months been developing my hunting loads for my G20. i have tested 200gr XTP quite a bit and like them very much but not as much as my 200-205gr WFN i designed. I quickly realized that when i take my elk this year i need something that has great penetration, more so then what the XTP will deliver. So i designed a 200gr WFN that Would do just what i want. and after many months of research i finished my design and made a mold. I'm a machinist so i made the mold my self. my cast boolits preform Amazing and has great accuracy and velocity. here is a pic of the boolits them selves.
http://www.jtcustomknives.com/calendar/files/1/boolits.jpg

when i say i get good accuracy i mean it. when i go to the range i use little post-it notes as my targets. here is my target from my last range visit, this postit note is 2.75" x 2.75"
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs606.snc4/58609_1600166171059_1443189422_31605925_1299508_n.jpg

I have pushed the 200gr XTP's up to 1500fps and thy hold together but i feel more comfortable taking large game with a WFN like mine. you will notice that my boolit has a different nose profile then the WFN boolits from double tap. my meplat (flat nose) is 72% where double taps is 80%. 65-70% is the sweet spot for WFN boolits any more then that and velocity will drop off quickly and you loose accuracy once you start stretching out to 100+ yards. this boolits holds velocity great out to any range i would feel comfortable taking an elk and here in Utah i have to hold a minimum of 500ft/lbs at 100 yards. At 1300fps which i can easily reach, it will hold 500ft/lbs at 170yards at a velocity of 1066fps. it do not go subsonic till 130yards and I'm still holding 546ft/lbs at that range. so because of all the studying and testing i have done i will be taking my elk with my WFN cast boolits. Expanding is expanding, if it expands a little then its an expanding boolit period. thy don't say well it has to expand at least 25% of its original size, thy just say expanding which does not mean HP.



Good casting there amigo ! Looks real good. I shoot almost 98% Hard Cast for all my hunting, and 2% XTP's. I like the cast over the JHP's. You get the right lube for these and there shooting accurate for ya, things look good. I use Cast Performance, or Beartooth, or Hunters Supply for all my stuff. They all run 20/21 bhn. What bhn are these you've done. Just curious. Again. Good job ! ;)




CM

CanyonMan
09-09-2010, 18:46
I like the looks of those!



True! :supergrin:

I just got back from my range - testing out this new install of the ghost rocket 3.5# connector. I tested it on the AA conversion kit & the 10mm w/ the 9.4gr. loads.

I am still getting used to this load and the trigger (connector installed yesterday), and I must add that shooting a load this powerful out of such a small gun (g29) is going to take some getting used to. I am catching myself flinching a little from this cannonball.


I think this connector should be called the ghost 5# connector by the way, because it doesn't break at 3.5#, that's for sure! (I wish it did)



Man I continue to watch your saga of "the building a G29." I do think it is being pushed with 800X a tad to much.







CanyonMan

CanyonMan
09-09-2010, 20:14
Kegs,

Hey I notice your using a brass called Scharch. I looked them up. Never heard of this before. Is thin NEW brass? How is it working for you? Thanks.



CM

Kegs
09-10-2010, 12:03
Kegs,

Hey I notice your using a brass called Scharch. I looked them up. Never heard of this before. Is thin NEW brass? How is it working for you? I know you are loading some pretty warm in your "quest" saga. haha, just wonderd how the brass is holding up, and about how may firings are you getting out of them, especially the hotter loads. Would appreciate your take on this brass.

Thanks
CM

So far, so good on the brass. I don't really have any starline or other brands to compare them to - I suppose if I was doing a comparison, it would be with the scale and a micrometer on a hundred pieces or so - just to check for consistency.

I haven't reloaded any of the cases from the speedy loads yet, but I probably will. Using visual comparison, it does not appear that the brass has stretched any at all using the KKM barrel. I think nearly all the brass I have shot - including that which i have shot in the Glock stock barrel, de-primed, cleaned up and re-formed can be reloaded again - except for the brass that had smileys on them - but those number just a few (blue dot loads) and I have already separated those.

I ordered 500 pcs. and I haven't gone through that many yet - but before too long I will be going to reloads.

I do have a small few that I have reloaded 2 times already though (about 16 pcs.) and so far, no problems at all with going another time.

Kegs
09-10-2010, 12:12
Just a quick note on the ghost rocket 3.5 using the Dave Spaulding cut:

The reset is in fact, MUCH smoother than the LW or stock Glock connectors - reset does indeed feel similar to the 1911. Previously it was "slappish". I would love to remove some of the loading off of it though - but considering trigger spring/striker spring/striker mass (10mm), I think I'm just about at the limits of what I can do with this gun without calling Vanek - though I may very well call him anyway eventually.

Maybe this is my next mod:

http://www.vanekcustom.com/3.html

CanyonMan
09-10-2010, 16:13
So far, so good on the brass. I don't really have any starline or other brands to compare them to - I suppose if I was doing a comparison, it would be with the scale and a micrometer on a hundred pieces or so - just to check for consistency.

I haven't reloaded any of the cases from the speedy loads yet, but I probably will. Using visual comparison, it does not appear that the brass has stretched any at all using the KKM barrel. I think nearly all the brass I have shot - including that which i have shot in the Glock stock barrel, de-primed, cleaned up and re-formed can be reloaded again - except for the brass that had smileys on them - but those number just a few (blue dot loads) and I have already separated those.

I ordered 500 pcs. and I haven't gone through that many yet - but before too long I will be going to reloads.

I do have a small few that I have reloaded 2 times already though (about 16 pcs.) and so far, no problems at all with going another time.


OK. Thanks. I'll look into it on the top brass. I usually use all starline, and have a rel good steady source for them, but it never hurts to have an ace in the whoe, so that is why I ask. ;)


Good luck


CM

Kegs
10-04-2010, 09:46
Ok, A few updates:

1. I have my chrono back, so I will be testing a few things this week: Velocity and precision of a few different types of rimfire ammo out of the 29/30, the rest of my handloads from before (9.8 and 10g of 800x) and I'm going to test the "spring theory" of double tap loads using my stock G29 barrel and spring and then changing to a 23# Wolff spring for a velocity comparison. This week the temperatures are fairly low (high in the 50s today) so I doubt I will get the velocity figures I did when it was 85F.

2. I was able to carefully look over the brass from the previous batch of hot 800x loads. 6 of the 80 or so brass I fired showed some fairly heavy outlines of the feed ramp area. Remember, this is with a KKM barrel, not the stocker. These were NOT hairline fractures, or true "smilies" stemming from an under supported stock Glock chamber, but you can definitely see the feed ramp semi circle outline with the naked eye (see pics below). There was one additional casing that I separated from the others that clearly looked a little stressed, but after looking at it more carefully, I decided it was a "pass".

3. I measured a sample of 12 new brass, 12 fired brass, and the 6 "bright mark" brass for weight, length, and shoulder diameter. Here are some observations I noted:

In all groups, the average length of the brass is 0.88"

In the new brass group, the shoulder diameter is a constant 0.420"

In the 12 "regular" fired brass group, the shoulder diameter is .422-.423"

In the 7 "bright mark" fired brass group, the shoulder diameter is .423-.425"

In the new brass group, average mass is 73.8gr.
In the "regular" fired brass group, the average mass is 74.1 gr.
In the "bright mark" fired brass group, the average mass is 73.3 gr.

NOTES:

The fired brass was not tumbled or otherwise cleaned before weighing, so there is some amount of mass associated with carbon inside the primer pocket and case - how much I did not investigate - I assume it could be 2 grains or more.

All the brass (including the fired brass) were run through the Lee forming/depriming die before measuring.

The reason for my measuring these cases was to see if there was some difference between the cases that showed signs of high pressure and those that did not. My conclusion is that I could not find a significant difference in the brass that would have caused a bright mark to appear. Obviously, the shoulder diameter is different - and that would answer the affect of the bright mark on the case, but not the underlying cause of what allowed the brass to expand that much more.

My only thought is that it could simply be a small variance in hardness of the brass on those individual pieces. I suppose there is a way to test for that, but I am at my amateur limit of knowledge in metallurgy at this point.

Obviously, there are many causes for pressure variance in a cartridge. At any rate, I did not observe any hairline fractures of the brass like I had seen in the 155gr. xtp + blue dot + 350 primers using a stock barrel.

Here are some photos I took so others could see what I am trying to explain:

Photo of the "bright mark" brass after having been fired through the KKM barrel and run through the forming/depriming die. (shoulder bulge measures .424-.425" after running through forming die):

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h235/Radsport2er/Brightmarkbrass.jpg
Same picture as above, only bright mark area pointed out:
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h235/Radsport2er/Brightmarkbrass2.jpg

Photo of the hairline (Glock smile or smiley) fracture on a case after being fired using 155gr. xtp + blue dot + CCI350s (12.6gr. powder - under mfgr's max load with LPP) in the stock Glock barrel. (shoulder bulge measures .427"-.435" (!) prior to running through forming die and .425" after):

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h235/Radsport2er/Glocksmile.jpg

A comparison of the bright mark (sign of high pressure?) and glock smile (sign of poor case support):

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h235/Radsport2er/Glocksmilevsbrightmarkcomp.jpg

Note that in my opinion NONE of these cases are safe for reloading - and therefore will not be reloaded.

The other brass from the batch are safe to reload in my opinion, but will not be reloaded to the same level of pressure as these new brass have been loaded to.

Kegs
10-06-2010, 17:21
So these are the numbers you've all been waiting for (or at least someone has):

Some seem to think that spring weight is a significant influence on velocity of 10mm ammo.

The following link is a thread that claims some large differences between 200 grain "controlled expansion" from only changing out a recoil spring!

Remember this post?:

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthre...1248287&page=3 (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1248287&page=3)

Well, I will post my figures below and you can conclude for yourself what the numbers tell. I just got back from my range an hour ago and tested this theory by shooting two strings back to back (not even 5 minute difference between them).

First, I apologize for the small sample numbers n=4. There should be at least 7 samples of each for decent numbers, but I simply did not have any more ammo to test this the theory out on. I could load up some rounds that go the same velocity, but that would only tell me what happens under my loads conditions. Plus, there is the difference of barrels: One with a big fat sloppy chamber and octagonal rifling, and another with a nice tight well supported chamber and conventional rifling. This may make a difference - I'll just say I'm unconvinced at this point.

Barrel used: 4.45" KKM
Ammo: Double tap 200 grain controlled expansion (these are Montana Gold bullets).
Gun: G29SF
Elevation: 1428' ASL
Temp: 68F

Stock spring/guide rod (17#)

1. 1195
2. 1173
3. 1178
4. 1191
AVERAGE: 1183

23# spring/ss guide rod

1. 1215
2. 1203
3. 1196
4. 1160

AVERAGE: 1193

Using a 21# spring, I was able to record an average of 1177 fps on another day.

My opinion is that these samples are too small to tell us the real story. If I had a box to burn up, I would be able to calculate a clear difference. Statistically speaking, we have a large extreme spread on these small samples, and frankly, I believe all recorded numbers in each string are within the variance I would get on a larger sample size.

It is obvious here that I did not experience a 125 fps difference :wow: (like as was recorded on the thread above), which is something that would show up clearly and definitively even in a sample this small.

My take on all this: spring rates do not make a significant difference in velocity. I also did not notice a difference in how far the brass was thrown. I believe there is some merit to using a stouter spring for stouter loads (less pounding on the gun).

If anyone really wants to see a conclusive test, I will have you order the ammo directly from Double tap and have it sent here so I can test it and report. Just PM me regarding this if you are interested.

crsuribe
10-06-2010, 17:40
Very nice thread. Learned a lot.

Hey Kegs, what kind of recoil spring set are you using on your 10mm Glock slide in this picture?

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h235/Radsport2er/viewofpistol.jpg

Kegs
10-06-2010, 17:40
A couple more tests for the Advantage arms model 29/30LE .22 conversion kit for Glock.

Remington target:

1. 847
2. 821
3. 851 (fail to eject)
4. 853
5. 884
6. 828
7. 866
8. 881
9. 737 (fail to eject)
10. 768

Average: 833
Std. Dev.: 47 (aka a slower, uncoated bulk golden bullet - precision poor)

Note: Rem golden bullets have shown STD. dev. around 60 - with precision to match! Today I had a 10 shot group that measured 21 and it had good precision. I was amazed!

Federal #719 (HV match)

1. 951
2. 955
3. 957
4. 959
5. 987
6. 992
7. 998
8. 985
9. 992
10. 969

Average: 974
Std. Dev. = 18 (not bad! - Very good precision)

CCI Velocitor

1. 1020
2. 1040
3. 989
4. 1016
5. 1008
6. 981
7. 984
8. 1026
9. 978
10. 993

Average: 1003

Std. Dev. = 21 (also not bad, precision about the same as #719)

#719 = the win for value of all the rimfires I have tested with this unit. Velocitor just doesn't "velocitize" with a barrel this short. :supergrin: I know from testing it in water jugs that it won't expand much at all running at this speed, either - so not much benefit of having a hollow point that won't expand.

#719 = my new grouse and squirrel getter.

I think I might have to try running some stingers through this unit. AA says not to, but they also say remington targets, golden bullets and CCI minimags work in their unit (well, I'll just agree with them 80% of the time) :whistling:

I also tested another 10 rounds of 9.4gr 800x behind 200gr. XTPs this afternoon and they did an average of 1242 fps - there are some signs of overpressure on these brass - in particular, flat primers and bright marks. I'm going to tone my load down to 9.2gr. of 800x. Should run around 1220 or so, which is enough for my hunting load.

I am now sorting the brass by weight because I suspect it maybe the lighter weight brass that are showing the bright marks on them. I've loaded some heavier stuff up with 9.2gr. already...just need to load more.

I forgot my shooting glasses in the office today, so couldn't continue on with my 9.8gr. rounds (I have 8 left) and my 10gr. rounds (should do ~1300 average). These are definitely overpressure rounds. I'm not loading any more up this hot - and just a tad hesitant to shoot these.

Kegs
10-06-2010, 17:43
Very nice thread. Learned a lot.

Hey Kegs, what kind of recoil spring set are you using on your 10mm Glock slide in this picture?

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h235/Radsport2er/viewofpistol.jpg

That is a wolff 21# spring with wolff ss guide rod. The current spring I am using is the wolff 23# spring (there is no visual difference) and same guide rod.

Thank you for the kind remarks. I am learning myself.

crsuribe
10-06-2010, 17:46
Are my eyes cheating me or does that thing really use 2 different springs? Sorry, I haven't modified my G.20 at all so I've never had any experience with Glock aftermarket parts.

Again, thanks for posting all this really valuable information. I guarantee it's going to help me when I start rolling my own.

Kegs
10-06-2010, 19:07
Are my eyes cheating me or does that thing really use 2 different springs? Sorry, I haven't modified my G.20 at all so I've never had any experience with Glock aftermarket parts.

Yes, it uses 2 springs, just like the Stock G29 spring does - only the stocker is a captured guide rod (you can't remove the springs from the rod) and the Wolff is non-captured - so the assembly is 3 pieces...The 23# spring rate is noticeable when you rack the slide.


Again, thanks for posting all this really valuable information. I guarantee it's going to help me when I start rolling my own.

You are welcome. That is the intent.

Kegs
10-06-2010, 19:46
Not trying to hijack Kegs' thread, but here is what i have done thus far..

I am not an expert on case head expansion, so if i am amis someone with some experience correct me. i measured the brass from my test loads, having segregated it according to charge. measuring slightly ahead of the groove was-and i do not have it in front of me-.420-.422. About 1/8" or so from the groove, the case bulged to .424-.425. This was the same on the starting loads, as well as the hottest loads. All brass would fit in a case gauge with no trouble.

For comparison, i took several pieces of brass from the bin of fired brass i had in the shop. These are pretty ho-hum loads for plinking with plated or lead bullets- 1100 or so FPS with a 175-180 grain bullet, nothing special.
the case head expansions was the same, running very close to the aforementioned numbers, sometimes .05" greater on a few pieces.

So..this tells me that the LW barrel does its job of keeping my brass in line, if nothing else. Does this sound right?

Yes, that sounds right. A stock Glock barrel will bulge the case all the way out to 1.435! That extra .010" makes all the difference between getting a smiley and not based on my experiences.

eman308
10-12-2010, 17:53
I had to copy your homework, hope you dont mind. :pirates: Here's what I got;
G20
LW 5"
Wolff 22lb spring
Wolff striker spring
Stainless guide rod
45 deg @ 5280ft
Win lg pistol primers
New Starline brass
Oal 1.26ish
800x over 200gr. XTP

9 gr.
1295
1265
1251
1259
1277
1258
1273
1242
1247

9.2 gr.
1299
1274
1277
1294
1280
1288
1275
1265
1289

9.4 gr.
1287
1278
1293
1307
1299
1295
1282
1308
1289

nickE10mm
10-13-2010, 00:00
I can't remember if I;ve even posted here in this thread but I wanted to chime in and say WOW Kegs.... NICE WORK HERE!

I'm tuned in, now.

Kegs
10-13-2010, 07:06
Thanks guys.

Hey E-man, did you see any pressure signs at all?

I think that 9.4 is probably right about 37kpsi, but without the luxury of testing equipment, it's speculative.

I think if you went up to 10gr. you could be right at .41 mag velocities!

800x is *THE* powder for 10 mil.

eman308
10-13-2010, 09:37
The main thing I saw was my ejector ding'n the rim pretty good. Function was fine and the brass looked good. Thanks for all your work on the load! Gona load up the XTPs I have then start on some hard cast. I just wanted 1200fps with the 200s, so I'm real happy! I think for woods and hogs I'll run 9.4gr. I'll drop it down a bit for range ammo, but for the few I'll shoot in the field I like the 9.4.
E.

Kegs
10-25-2010, 11:09
I have recently run a box of CCI stingers through my LE G29/30 AA .22lr conversion kit and found them to work with 100% reliability, but only about an 8/10 scale for precision (10/10 would be federal #719).

I still wish I could find a hollow point bullet that would have the speed and precision of the velocitor, but with a softer lead like the minimag. minimags are not reliable in this unit - they just don't have the power that the velocitors and stingers do.

It is fun running the stingers through this gun as the white colored ball of blast around the pistol is very dramatic...Maybe even more dramatic than 10 mm driven by Blue dot! :wow:

ren
10-29-2010, 19:04
Just worked up a fantastic load for my Glock 29 with an aftermarket fitted barrel and heavy recoil spring: Double Tap 200 grain gas check in front of 9.0 of Blue Dot. Very accurate and the primers look good. I'll chrono soon, but I expect about 1150.

ren

Kegs
11-13-2010, 05:28
Just worked up a fantastic load for my Glock 29 with an aftermarket fitted barrel and heavy recoil spring: Double Tap 200 grain gas check in front of 9.0 of Blue Dot. Very accurate and the primers look good. I'll chrono soon, but I expect about 1150.

ren

If it's made with blue dot, it's going to go "KER-BOOM!" That's the flashiest and most magnum-like sounding powder there is. I think will you scare the bad guy or game dead with it. :supergrin:

Jitterbug
11-13-2010, 08:17
Kegs

I'm curious and without reading through all your threads, have you tried AA#9 in your quest for speed with the heavies?

ren
11-15-2010, 17:41
If it's made with blue dot, it's going to go "KER-BOOM!" That's the flashiest and most magnum-like sounding powder there is. I think will you scare the bad guy or game dead with it. :supergrin:

Actually, I am now loading 9.4 of Blue Dot. The reason why I use Blue Dot is because I have a lot of it. When I finally use it up, I'll try something else. Anyway, the accuracy is good and I can manage the recoil. By the way, I also use Blue Dot with .357 sig. It makes a lot of noise but works well in that caliber, too.

ren

Kegs
11-16-2010, 17:59
Kegs

I'm curious and without reading through all your threads, have you tried AA#9 in your quest for speed with the heavies?

That is a good question and the answer is no - primarily because I don't think it can match 800x in the velocity:pressure ratio.

Of course, I will always be guessing when it comes to the pressure question, since I don't have the expensive test equipment.

After looking at all of other folk's trials in the various powder mfgr. titled threads (and other similar threads from across cyberspace + corresponding with experienced loaders), then having a look at the velocity and pressure each is listed at in respective manuals, I have come to the conclusion that if you want something hauling ass in 10mm - safely - and don't mind hand weighing each charge - carefully - 800x is "it".

My newly revised hunting load is 200gr. xtp moving out at ~1220 fps AVERAGE - This velocity out of a 4.45" bbl...

...I have some loaded up with this powder that will make 1300 fps AVERAGE (though I know for certain those exceed SAAMI specs - because McNett has pressure tested them and listed that figure on this forum in another thread). i haven't actually run those loads yet and those vel. figures are from extrapolation of a seemingly quite linear characteristic with this powder (add 0.2 grains: add ~ 20 f/s) I expect that observation to hold at least until 10gr.

Keep in mind that the original spec for the 10mm Norma automatic was 200gr. @ 1200 fps out of a 5" barrel - and modern big label ammo doesn't even come close to that! (Not even sure if Norma actually made that on the average). Double tap = maybe, Buffalo bore = maybe, Swamp fox = definitely, but certainly not Win and others...

(note: Wikipedia suggests 1300 fps, but speer and other sources state 1200 fps, which I believe is correct)

Anyway, at the end of the day when you compare velocity and pressure, I do not believe any "hobbyist" reloading powder, including long shot or AA#9 can beat 800x for speed with the 200grain bullets relative to meeting or staying under the 37.5 kpsi SAAMI rating...

I could be wrong, and without the test equipment I'll never know - but the numbers tell a story, and the conclusion I got was "Hi Skor". :supergrin:

Jitterbug
11-16-2010, 18:38
Interesting and I appreciate the responce.

I'm not ready yet to load any 200 grain loads...got to find and purchase the bullets first. But it will be a hard cast with a wide meplat,

The bears are going in for the winter now, so I may put it off until late winter of early spring, not to mention I have more "pressing" reloading projects I'm working on at the moment if you know what I mean...

But, I'm finding your efforts and work-ups interesting...I'm taking notes, for future reference.

I observed in my Hornady 7th that for 200 grain jacketed bullets, they are listing a max load of 800x at 8.1 grains for 1050 fps and showing Blue Dot at 9.4 gr. and AA no. 9 @ 13.2 gr. as giving the highest velocities @ 1150 fps.

Of course I know and understand how differing load books give differing data...sometimes considerable differences...but had to wonder about AA#9. So I was curious and thought I'd ask.

I'm still wondering what a "safe" velocity would be for my 4.25" Dan Wesson, and what the 200 grain D.T. loads produce in my gun. I need to get a "clock" and it's on my wish list.

Meathead9
11-16-2010, 19:29
I loaded up some 200gr WFNGC's well over max with both Longshot and Blue Dot, but neither powder could get me over about 1280fps out of my 6" barrel. I worked up to a 1416fps average with 800X, so I have to agree with what kegs said.

Hey Jitter, DT's 200gr WFNGC load averaged about 1215fps from my 6" barrel. I'd guess it would go around 1100-1150fps out of your 4.25" barrel.

Jitterbug
11-17-2010, 08:56
Thanks....good to know

Kegs
12-24-2010, 11:32
I

I observed in my Hornady 7th that for 200 grain jacketed bullets, they are listing a max load of 800x at 8.1 grains for 1050 fps and showing Blue Dot at 9.4 gr. and AA no. 9 @ 13.2 gr. as giving the highest velocities @ 1150 fps.

Always keep in mind the pressure they state for every load (if they list it). 800x velocity #s for the book loads are fairly low - BUT, their stated pressure is very low for this load too. The other powders with their higher max book velocities are listed with their higher pressures - (my assumption is that they are at higher pressures than the 800x would be at that velocity). I have no idea why IMR stopped so soon with their max 800x book load.

They won't tell you either - under the advice of their lawyers. :supergrin:

deeHKman
12-29-2010, 18:25
Kegs, have ever looked into Aguila .22 ammo? Its been awhile but i remember some of it was fast. I like the stingers also and have some Velocitors to try soon. I hope to buy a conversation kit oneday,d:wavey:

I have recently run a box of CCI stingers through my LE G29/30 AA .22lr conversion kit and found them to work with 100% reliability, but only about an 8/10 scale for precision (10/10 would be federal #719).

I still wish I could find a hollow point bullet that would have the speed and precision of the velocitor, but with a softer lead like the minimag. minimags are not reliable in this unit - they just don't have the power that the velocitors and stingers do.

It is fun running the stingers through this gun as the white colored ball of blast around the pistol is very dramatic...Maybe even more dramatic than 10 mm driven by Blue dot! :wow:

Angry Fist
12-29-2010, 18:31
:wavey:

Kegs
01-12-2011, 12:16
Kegs, have ever looked into Aguila .22 ammo? Its been awhile but i remember some of it was fast. I like the stingers also and have some Velocitors to try soon. I hope to buy a conversation kit oneday,d:wavey:

Yes, I known about Aguila. I have never used any personally. I might pick up some and try some if I happen by a place that sells it.

Stingers might work best for my kit because I know that they will actually expand at short bbl. pistol velocities - I don't know what it takes to make Velocitors to expand, but a LOT more than what this kit will develop - the lead is hard on those bullets.

nickE10mm
02-10-2011, 14:08
....
McNett has reported the 10gr. load to run 38,500 psi on a different thread.

SAAMI max pressure for 10mm = 37,500. .....


Kegs... I was just perusing your thread (like I sometimes do) and noticed your commend regarding McNett's 10.0gr 800X load. If you look at McNett's post, you will see that the 38,500psi comment by McNett was referring to that load FROM A 10" CONTENDER BARREL.... Remember, the longer the barrel, the higher the pressure. In fact, that's why he event LISTED the pressure in that post (since he didn't list pressure on any other load over at the GT 10mm Reloading area).

Just thought I'd clear that up. I'm guessing his 10.0gr 200gr XTP 800x loads are right there at 37,500psi since he didn't mention pressure levels but, of course, I'd really like to hear it from him. At this point, we can't ever really know until he posts pressure data from 4.6", 5" or 6" barrels.

Just FYI.

_The_Shadow
02-10-2011, 20:29
The thing about pressure testing is putting the strain gauge on the barrel...if you can. Semi-autos are not something you can do this with easily, if it were easy we could do it for ourselves.

I woud suspect most test are done with a test barrel in a fixture to obtain readings reliably.

I was looking at some loads from DT and the powder Mike used was nothing that I have found on the market, this stuff is about the same size as Blue Dot flakes, but is more of a flatten ball and silver in color (looks like chrome). I wish I could find this particular powder to mimic some of his loads!

Kegs
02-10-2011, 20:50
Kegs... I was just perusing your thread (like I sometimes do) and noticed your commend regarding McNett's 10.0gr 800X load. If you look at McNett's post, you will see that the 38,500psi comment by McNett was referring to that load FROM A 10" CONTENDER BARREL.... Remember, the longer the barrel, the higher the pressure. In fact, that's why he event LISTED the pressure in that post (since he didn't list pressure on any other load over at the GT 10mm Reloading area).

Just thought I'd clear that up. I'm guessing his 10.0gr 200gr XTP 800x loads are right there at 37,500psi since he didn't mention pressure levels but, of course, I'd really like to hear it from him. At this point, we can't ever really know until he posts pressure data from 4.6", 5" or 6" barrels.

Just FYI.
Yup. but there are other #s around if you keep looking and digging deep - including #s in manuals posted by Horn. and IMR

nickE10mm
02-11-2011, 07:03
Yup. but there are other #s around if you keep looking and digging deep - including #s in manuals posted by Horn. and IMR

Ah, okay... thanks for the heads up. I'll keep diggin a bit.

MakeMineA10mm
02-13-2011, 00:51
Remember, the longer the barrel, the higher the pressure.

Barrel length has precious little to do with pressure.

Barrel length will effect velocity, and barrel length will effect terminal pressure (the pressure level when the bullet leaves the muzzle).

If barrel length has anything to do with maximum overall pressure, it would have a very small effect in the way it's friction on the bullet contains the pressure over a longer time, leading to some residual peak pressure, but this effect, especially once the bullet's inertia is overcome and the rifling has completed engraving the bullet is very, very minimal. Not sure it could even be measured. Just speculating, but if it could be measured, I'd guess it would be in the single-digits of PSI...

Therefore, when McNett published those pressures on that 38,500psi load, you can believe (with the same lot #s of components and loaded the same way) that a G-29 would have 38,500psi pressure (strain-guage).

Also keep in mind that the strain gauge system as used in the Oehler 43 is NOT pure pressure readings either. One must use calibrated ammunition from SAAMI that develops a known pressure, and then fire that through your Oehler 43 and come up with a conversion factor to convert your strain gauge's readings to actual PSI. My pure W.A.G. is that since that 10.0gr load worked O.K. for McNett, that his strain guages were actually showing a higher-than-actual reading on that load on that day, but that's assuming he was referring to that 10.0gr load.

I've shot enough HOT 10mm ammo to know that going much over 37,500psi (actual) is going to be noticeable. 800x is not a magic powder; it just happens to fit the 10mm's performance envelope really, really well. But, pressure is pressure, and you need a certain amount of it to get to the velocities we seek. 800x, and a few other powders, do so while avoiding most of the objectionable pressure-related problems when we load the 10mm they way we like. Personally, I think the combination of deterent coatings and the large granule size cause 800x to burn poorly at those super-early points in time when the ignition of the load is over-coming the inertia of the bullet and the bullet is engaging the leade of the rifling, and this is what allows us to load so much safely to achieve those high velocities.

:supergrin:

nickE10mm
02-13-2011, 08:40
Makemine - thank you for this response... Good info!

nickE10mm
02-13-2011, 09:00
... I have another question.... for anyone who knows the answer.

We all know that many handloaders (at least eventually) want to try and hot-rod the 10mm. We all know that max SAAMI pressure is 37,500 psi for the 10mm.

My question is, are most loads that are considered "on the edge" or the MAX UPPER LIMIT that a person should even atempt (with fully supported barrel, strong platform, new brass, hand weighing charges of 800x, 200gr XTP @ 1300fps, 180gr XTP @ 1350-1400fps etc etc)......approaching 37,500psi? Or are these loads in excess of SAAMI max? I guess I'm asking ... is a NUCLEAR 10mm load a load that approaches 37,500psi or is a nuclear load one that equals that number? Or is a nuclear load one that surpasses 37,500psi? I ask because all the books state max 800x loads at 32-35k and people sometimes creep over max book loads. Are these people actually exceeding 37,500psi or are they creeping UP to 37,500psi? I ask because it seems strange that a cartridge would have a SAAMI max that can't be approached without aftermarket barrels, etc (ie, Glock comes to mind)

I'm not looking for the lawyer answer, I'm looking for the realistic, true answer. I am well aware of the dangers of exceeding max loads but in order to understand much of the data I read, I need this question answered truthfully and correctly.

I hope the question makes sense. I've never seen this question asked directly on any forum and it would really help my understanding when it comes to hot-rodding the 10.

Thanks in advance!

Jitterbug
02-13-2011, 09:38
Nick, I don't know the answer to your question.

But I do know I have to take apart about 85 rounds of a 155 grain Hornady "start load" that I was working on, because it's to hot, not so much from the powder charge although my data varied as much as 7.0 grains to 9.6... which caused me much much scratching of the head and I settled on 9.2 grains, max loads are 11.0 grains of AA5.

But, I had a setback bullet setback issue which really caught me with my pants down, the bullets were setting back up to .020"-.030"+. So God only knows what the PSI was, I just knew I had more "bang" then I bargained for with primers much flatter then I had expected.

IF those had been "warmer" loads it could have gotten ugly.

The more I learn about re-loading the more I realize how little I really know and the way to learn is by doing it, doing it a few thousand times with low to mid range book loads, and even then exercising due diligence. I know there will be those who disagree and say I'm an old lady, that's fine it's their gun, fingers and eyes.

Yep I want my future 200 grain "woods loads" to be fastest I can safely get out of my 10mm, I'd like to duplicate what I think Double Tap's loads are supposed to be.

1200 fps with a 200 grain bullet.

But if I can't get there without being 100% sure it's safe to do so, I'll either settle for what I have or go to a different caliber and platform, like .44 mag.

nickE10mm
02-13-2011, 09:43
Nick, I don't know the answer to your question.

But I do know I have to take apart about 85 rounds of a 155 grain Hornady "start load" that I was working on, because it's to hot, not so much from the powder charge although my data varied as much as 7.0 grains to 9.6... which caused me much much scratching of the head and I settled on 9.2 grains, max loads are 11.0 grains of AA5.

But, I had a setback bullet setback issue which really caught me with my pants down, the bullets were setting back up to .020"-.030"+. So God only knows what the PSI was, I just knew I had more "bang" then I bargained for with primers much flatter then I had expected.

IF those had been "warmer" loads it could have gotten ugly.

The more I learn about re-loading the more I realize how little I really know and the way to learn is by doing it, doing it a few thousand times with low to mid range book loads, and even then exercising due diligence. I know there will be those who disagree and say I'm an old lady, that's fine it's their gun, fingers and eyes.

Yep I want my future 200 grain "woods loads" to be fastest I can safely get out of my 10mm, I'd like to duplicate what I think Double Tap's loads are supposed to be.

1200 fps with a 200 grain bullet.

But if I can't get there without being 100% sure it's safe to do so, I'll either settle for what I have or go to a different caliber and platform, like .44 mag.

I agree, Jitterbug, however, my question still nags me. As I said, I need it to understand the whole "system".

:)

Kegs
02-13-2011, 10:29
My opinion: you can't answer this question objectively.

I know for a fact there are people out there that have loaded 10mm up to levels 99%+ of 10mm handloaders won't believe is even possible to do without blowing a gun up - yet they've done it without blowing the gun up or even rupturing a case...

It has been with upgraded equipment (e.g. barrel w/full case support/minimal tolerance for the case web forward + a few other upgrades).

I haven't gone nearly that far with this hobby.

I figure when the primers eject from the cases upon extraction, I've gone as far as I'm able to go...at least with those primers - and I have experienced that during the last range trip using CCI350s.

NOTE: ALWAYS START LOW AND WORK UP SLOWLY - RTFM !!!

MY ANSWER is that for 10mm, I personally rate a "nuke" load at 15% or more above maximum book load. That may or may not be above the 37.5kpsi SAAMI benchmark, but at that level, you're exceeding what mainstream ammo companies load to by quite a bit.

NOTE: DON'T TRY THESE LOADS!

[as an example: 135g nos w/11.6gr. 800x, CCI350, 1621 fps flat primers but okay = NUKE (for my gun); 11.8gr. 800x, CCI350, 1654 fps avg. = 3/5 primers gone upon extraction = back off and don't bother going further than 11.6 with this one :supergrin: note for self: I may have to try 300s and work back up]

For an example, 200gr. XTP + cci350 + 7.8gr. max book load (32.5kpsi) according to IMR. Well, 15% above that would be 7.8 x 1.15= 8.97, or rounded, 9.0gr., which in my gun will reach velocities over the 1200 fps mark - with a ~4 1/2" barrel.

Keep in mind that original design #s for 10mm was that a 200gr. bullet reach 1200 fps out of a 5" barrel - and that seldom happened in the real world with mfgr. loaded ammo.

My favorite load for my gun is 9.2 grains - that is based primarily on tests of precision - but also I want something that will bring a deer down and meets or exceeds CO's pistol cartridge specs for big game - should I ever go back there and hunt elk.

My best "guesstimate" for this load is you are reaching the 37.5kpsi at around 9.4 gr.

During my testing, 9.6 grains fired fine - but @ 9.8 grains, I started losing primers. I am rather confident 9.6 grains is over the benchmark, 9.8 gr. I think was over 1300 avg. :supergrin:


... I have another question.... for anyone who knows the answer.

We all know that many handloaders (at least eventually) want to try and hot-rod the 10mm. We all know that max SAAMI pressure is 37,500 psi for the 10mm.

My question is, are most loads that are considered "on the edge" or the MAX UPPER LIMIT that a person should even atempt (with fully supported barrel, strong platform, new brass, hand weighing charges of 800x, 200gr XTP @ 1300fps, 180gr XTP @ 1350-1400fps etc etc)......approaching 37,500psi? Or are these loads in excess of SAAMI max? I guess I'm asking ... is a NUCLEAR 10mm load a load that approaches 37,500psi or is a nuclear load one that equals that number? Or is a nuclear load one that surpasses 37,500psi? I ask because all the books state max 800x loads at 32-35k and people sometimes creep over max book loads. Are these people actually exceeding 37,500psi or are they creeping UP to 37,500psi? I ask because it seems strange that a cartridge would have a SAAMI max that can't be approached without aftermarket barrels, etc (ie, Glock comes to mind)

I'm not looking for the lawyer answer, I'm looking for the realistic, true answer. I am well aware of the dangers of exceeding max loads but in order to understand much of the data I read, I need this question answered truthfully and correctly.

I hope the question makes sense. I've never seen this question asked directly on any forum and it would really help my understanding when it comes to hot-rodding the 10.

Thanks in advance!

Kegs
02-13-2011, 10:45
The system is complex.

It's based on the concept that "x" generally makes a cartridge do this or that, but NOT ALWAYS!

That is why the best way to approach reloading is to start fairly low (low-med side in book loads using applicable components) and work up slowly - in the case of 200gr in 10mm, I go with 0.2gr/relay, and for smaller bullets that require more powder to load - say the 135 nos, I might go 0.3gr./relay.

5 shots per relay is okay if you pay close attention the mean and median speeds (sometimes the mean gets thrown off due to small samples - then you have to pay attention to the previous couple of relays to forecast the next - this is the problem with small samples).

10 shots per relay is better - mean works out much more often.

It's all about stats from my perspective.

Stats are a pain in the behind, but the more you know, the more the #s make sense).



I agree, Jitterbug, however, my question still nags me. As I said, I need it to understand the whole "system".

:)

MakeMineA10mm
02-13-2011, 11:38
... I have another question.... for anyone who knows the answer.

We all know that many handloaders (at least eventually) want to try and hot-rod the 10mm. We all know that max SAAMI pressure is 37,500 psi for the 10mm.

My question is, are most loads that are considered "on the edge" or the MAX UPPER LIMIT that a person should even atempt (with fully supported barrel, strong platform, new brass, hand weighing charges of 800x, 200gr XTP @ 1300fps, 180gr XTP @ 1350-1400fps etc etc)......approaching 37,500psi? Or are these loads in excess of SAAMI max? I guess I'm asking ... is a NUCLEAR 10mm load a load that approaches 37,500psi or is a nuclear load one that equals that number? Or is a nuclear load one that surpasses 37,500psi? I ask because all the books state max 800x loads at 32-35k and people sometimes creep over max book loads. Are these people actually exceeding 37,500psi or are they creeping UP to 37,500psi? I ask because it seems strange that a cartridge would have a SAAMI max that can't be approached without aftermarket barrels, etc (ie, Glock comes to mind)

I'm not looking for the lawyer answer, I'm looking for the realistic, true answer. I am well aware of the dangers of exceeding max loads but in order to understand much of the data I read, I need this question answered truthfully and correctly.

I hope the question makes sense. I've never seen this question asked directly on any forum and it would really help my understanding when it comes to hot-rodding the 10.

Thanks in advance!

Kegs is onto something when he says this probably can't be answered objectively. The truth is very, very few people have access to real pressure-testing equipment.

My assertion is that 200gr bullets at much over 1200fps (1225? I don't know, but it's in there, certainly before you get to 1300) in a standard length barrel are developing in excess of 37,500psi.

Remember that the original Norma loads varied up to 43,000psi, and they flattened primers really bad but didn't blow... The proof load is up around 55,000psi for 10mm.

The bottom line is that the system is not set up to operate consistently at these levels all the time, and the levels above 37,500psi are there as a safety net for things that come up like, powder-throw variation, bullet set-back, thicker brass, etc. That safety net should not be invaded both to continue it's presence and to be easier on the overall gun system.

nickE10mm
02-13-2011, 16:15
Jitterbug and MakeMineA10mm ... thanks for the responses... All answers sound right to me from what I know.

I sure wish it was easier to measure pressure. :)

hypnagogue
02-13-2011, 17:22
I sure wish it was easier to measure pressure. :)

Actually, Glock barrels provide a simple means to measure pressure, since the amount of damage to the brass is approximately proportional to pressure.

That said, Glock belly should not be taken as a failure of the reloader to manage SAAMI-spec pressures. Nowhere does Glock promise that you'll be able to reuse brass shot through their barrels, and standard pressure loads for 40, 45 and 10 are generally not reloadable after being shot through a Glock. Even moderate pressure loads will eventually result in a case head separation.

We don't use after-market barrels because we want to push pressures over max. We use after-market barrels because we want to reuse our brass.

MakeMineA10mm
02-15-2011, 00:55
I sure wish it was easier to measure pressure.

Don't need to. It's fairly simple to handload to maximum reasonable power if you have four things: 1) Chronograph, 2) accurate micrometer (preferably one that reads to ten-thousandths) and skill to use it, 3) a reasonable supply of real high-performance ammo (Cor-Bon, Double-Tap, original Norma, Texas Ammunition, Original Winchester Silvertips, etc.), and 4) knowledge and practice with Ken Waters' Expansion Ring measurement system.

If you combine these with proper handloading practice (working up from start with your set of components), you can achieve safe, very-high performance ammo at home. Oh, you also need patience to follow-through with the quest! :supergrin:

We don't use after-market barrels because we want to push pressures over max. We use after-market barrels because we want to reuse our brass.

I REALLY like that way of looking at things!

Jitterbug
02-15-2011, 09:38
Nick

One other thing I keep in mind is I'm shooting a 10mm in 1911, and it's a 4.25" barrel to boot, so personally I'm staying on the south side of the high side.

I know we have better steels then the original 1911 and the .38 Super guys have been pushing it to high pressure levels similar to the 10mm for sometime, but with that said I think us 1911 guys need to err on the side of caution when it comes to really warm 10mm loads, which is a conclusion I've drawn from doing a lot of reading on some good forums from guy's who have forgotten more about 1911's then I'll ever know and I'm more of a shooter then a technical guy.

I think the Glock's with the aftermarket barrels are a bit better platform to push the 10mm in my opinion. And I may go back to a Glock for a woods gun, I've owned a G29 and a G27 and think they're good guns, but I really prefer the 1911 platform.

My G29 with a Barsto barrel, trigger job, night sights and recoil spring mods was a nice gun and I really wish I hadn't had to sell it, (kick self) I took a significant loss on the aftermarket parts and pieces, but a G20 SF might be in my future...

I just found out over this past weekend that I'll be heading up through Wyoming and Idaho early this summer so I need to get to work on my version of the 200 grain Beartooth and I saw on their sight they even offer a 147 grain 9mm version, the wife carries a M&P 9c, so I figure what the heck, I'm going to load up some hard cast 147 9mm.

Not that we'll be spending a lot of time in the back country, but we will be wetting a line on a few rivers between the Denver area and northern Idaho and I have a habit of getting off the beaten path.

I know, that a 4.25" 10mm and a 9mm is considered silly for wildlife protection, especially in that neck of the woods. So if I can find the money I'll try and pick up a 4" 629 or maybe even a short barreled Black Hawk, I've been itching to get back to .44 for some time and still have more then a few components, although I shoot the 1911 10mm much faster and much better which makes it a difficult decision.

If the wife handled the 10mm better I'd have her carry it and I'd go with the .44, but we've tried, she doesn't, it's just too much for her. But she can hit quickly and accurately with a 147 grain 9mm.

So for now I'm going to try and get that 200 grain Beartooth hard cast running around 1050-1100 fps, I haven't researched the load enough yet, (Kegs is providing lots of good info) but will be in the next few weeks and since I don't have the proper tools or skill set as Makeminea10mm has suggested, at least not yet anyway...so I'll stay on the mild side of hot.

I do have a good supply of older D.T. 200 grain XTP's and FMJ's on hand as back up loads if I can't get my Beartooth up and running in time.

nickE10mm
02-15-2011, 14:29
We don't use after-market barrels because we want to push pressures over max. We use after-market barrels because we want to reuse our brass.

I ALSO like that statement very much...

I've got a chronograph on my list of things to get before springtime. I've got my portable reloading stand waiting for me at Graf's and will pick up a chony here in a week or so when I get back into town.... Looking forward to dipping into (pun intended) that 800x and running a few loads over the chrony when it gets warmer outside. My Fusion longslide should be done around the beginning of March and that 6" tube should make it way easier to get the velocities I need with less stress. I thought about putting a .44 mag on layaway next week, too.... Gotta get tooled up to load .44, as well. ;)

Jitterbug - I'm not so worried about making hot loads for a 10mm 1911 so much since I think that a well built 1911 is just as strong as a Glock. I think that a tight , supported chamber is more instrument to success than the overall DESIGN, as there are pro's and con's for both 1911's AND Glocks.

Kegs
02-15-2011, 14:48
We don't use after-market barrels because we want to push pressures over max. We use after-market barrels because we want to reuse our brass.

That is the #1 reason, absolutely. :wavey: :supergrin:

Kegs
02-15-2011, 15:00
Nick

One other thing I keep in mind is I'm shooting a 10mm in 1911, and it's a 4.25" barrel to boot, so personally I'm staying on the south side of the high side.

I wish I had one.



I know, that a 4.25" 10mm and a 9mm is considered silly for wildlife protection, especially in that neck of the woods.

I don't think it's silly. 10mm hardcast bullet at decent velocity will go clean through a bear and break any bone it hits in the process.

A .44 (629) is not going to do anything better other than make a little bit bigger hole and go further once it's through the bear.

this is hard lead we're talking about.

But she can hit quickly and accurately with a 147 grain 9mm.

A hardcast lead in 9mm would be interesting for sure. I'll bet that will provide plenty of penetration for a bear as well.


So for now I'm going to try and get that 200 grain Beartooth hard cast running around 1050-1100 fps, I haven't researched the load enough yet, (Kegs is providing lots of good info) but will be in the next few weeks and since I don't have the proper tools or skill set as Makeminea10mm has suggested, at least not yet anyway...so I'll stay on the mild side of hot.

I do have a good supply of older D.T. 200 grain XTP's and FMJ's on hand as back up loads if I can't get my Beartooth up and running in time.

Well personally I am going to do some experimenting with hard cast lead (10mm) if I have the time and money to. Right now I am unsure as to where I will be - but there is a distinct possibility I could be in either 1 of 2 or 2 of 2 countries that don't allow firearms and if that is the case, it might even take me longer to get to the hardcast testing.

I guess what I have in mind is loading up a 200 or 220 at a reasonably fast speed and seeing how many full milk jugs I can penetrate with it. I might add some layers of 1/2" cdx plywood in between to equate bones. My thought is if I can get through 3 pieces of plywood and 6 milk jugs, nothing short of African game is going to stop one of those bullets.

It might not be technically legal to hunt with those bullets in certain states, but when it comes down to bear protection (and when I think of needing protection against bears, I think of certain areas in Alaska), I think the 10mil hardcast is a very good candidate...then again, I haven't tested them, and I haven't shot a big brown either. :supergrin:

Jitterbug
02-15-2011, 15:28
My main concern is Moose, Moose on the rivers were I like to fish.

Colorado has built up a healthy population and it's starting to explode. I think they're even a bigger concern then bears, which tend to leave humans alone, Moose on the other hand can either be belligerent or protective, depending on sex and season.

A cow with a calf in the thick willows like we have on our river bottoms has kept me from lot's of my favorite fishing holes....it's just not worth it, so I just stay away from many of my previously favorite haunts in Northern Colorado, which is now overpopulated.

I do enjoy glassing and viewing them from a distance though...

Trouble is, it's only a matter of time before their in the central and southern parts of the state. Each year they come a bit closer.

Kegs, I've been wondering about test mediums too. Bundled, wet newspaper would probably be good, but I quit reading the Sunday paper years ago.

And I've been saving my water jugs for awhile now. I like your idea of putting some wood in there.

Years ago I think McNet did some testing with a string of 2x4's or similar?

Then there is Buffaloe, what with the growing interest in Buffaloe meat, more and more ranchers are raising them, and same thing, they tend to be found in area's of river bottoms.

I had a chance to shoot a dead one on the side of the road a couple of years ago and have kicked myself for not doing so...it would have been interesting to see how far a D.T. FMJ would have penetrated the skull.

Jitterbug
02-15-2011, 15:29
Are you thinking of putting the plywood in front of it or behind the jugs?

Sorry, didn't see the in between part.

3/4Flap
02-15-2011, 20:19
I've been testing rifle bullets in jugs and wood plywood baffles for many years.

In order for the testing to have any meaning, you must do a few things first.

1} Estabilish a control. For instance, a really known, accepted, superb round of whatever handgun caliber. This is the standard by which you will compare your results.

2} EVER forget that penetration of pistol bullets in test media may equal that of high powered rifle rounds but that does not mean they perform on game similarly.

Looks like I may have to begin more boards and jugs testing...

Here's an example of the setup we use.

This was for some bone and head testing.

Normally we use 1/2 CDX + 1 Water-filled Jug, repeated.

Kegs
02-16-2011, 03:55
When I lived in MT a girl I worked with told me they got chased out of the hot springs by some moose. :rofl:

They're too big to mess with for a human.

Buffaloes can get nasty too - we have a local who ranches some nearby and I know the rancher and the guy that works for him - they have some good stories, but I wouldn't be as concerned about them than the moose.

Personally, I've worked in bear country and been within 50 yards of a griz in MT. I'm not too concerned about them anymore.

The bear lairs sometimes give me the heeby jeebies, but I think that is my imagination more than reality. They are still, quiet places and you can't see too far in those thickets. Not that I would need it, but I would still consider carrying a gun in there just in case...

nickE10mm
02-16-2011, 06:12
Yep.... I would carry a gun in those thickets, too.... probably not a .44 due to weight. A hot loaded 10mm hardcast would be the ticket for me.... with the front sight filed off.

Chances are very high that it would never get used ... and even higher that if it DID get used, i'd be lunch for a bear regardless of the caliber chosen. :)

Jitterbug
02-16-2011, 08:17
Flap

I agree with your assessment.

I think one could simply insert the 1/2" plywood in between the water jugs?

I'd like to see how a Double Tap 200 grain FMJ, would compare to a 200 grain Beartooth.

Anyone seen any independent chrono figures from a Double Tap 200 grain FMJ, out of a G29?

Or Double Tap 200 grain Beartooth?

Jitterbug
02-16-2011, 08:22
Well I might get stomped or wind up as bear food, but at least I'd go down with my boots on.

On the other hand I think well placed head shots with hard cast bullets is going to be a significant deterrent, so I'm keeping my front sight.

nickE10mm
02-16-2011, 08:36
Well I might get stomped or wind up as bear food, but at least I'd go down with my boots on.

On the other hand I think well placed head shots with hard cast bullets is going to be a significant deterrent, so I'm keeping my front sight.

I hear ya :)

Kegs
03-11-2011, 17:44
I loaded up 20 this evening - 8.8gr. of 800x using a #350 primer and 200gr. xtp. I used the same seating and crimping specs I used to put together the rounds earlier on this same thread.

I was expecting an average of ~1200 fps. I got an average of 1235 fps out of 10 shots. I did not record each round on paper (of course each one of these was recorded on the chrono - I just didn't write them down 'cause I really didn't care to. I just noted a s.d. of 22...not bad when you consider the following):

The interesting part is that I was shooting with brass I had shot at least once before (some of these possibly 2x - some of these had more than likely been shot in the Glock OEM barrel and some had been previously loaded with nice stout loads), tumbled in cob media, cleaned off, cleaned the primer pocket and separated from the remainder of the brass on two criteria:

1. As heavy or heavier than the average brass of this lot.
2. Equal to or shorter than 0.988" (the average length of the lot) - and I further separated this brass tonight so that it was actually between .985"-.988".

I suspect that the shorter, stouter brass increased the pressure a little on average, making the round a tad hotter.

As the other rounds at this velocity showed in the earlier strings, these rounds showed very good precision.

I have been shooting 135gr. noslers FAST lately. I forgot how much these 200 grainers recoil with the G29. :wow: You definitely know you're shooting something!

3/4Flap
03-11-2011, 20:27
Flap

I agree with your assessment.

I think one could simply insert the 1/2" plywood in between the water jugs?



Yes:

Board + Jug + Board + Jug, etc...

donjose
03-11-2011, 21:36
I have been watching this thread for a while and am trying to figure which 10mm model to get.But what I am wondering is the frame starting to get beat up on your 29 yet?


Thanks

Jason

donjose
03-11-2011, 22:01
Also one more question as well.Would the 200 xtp loaded to 1200fps or so be to much to use as a self defense round?



Jason

_The_Shadow
03-12-2011, 00:23
DonJose, the 200XTP is what I carry in my G-29 while it makes 1200 fps from my 5" barreled S&W1006 pistol it only makes 1130 fps from the little Glock 29 stock barrel, I use a Wolff noncaptured recoil rod and their 21lb springs...

I'm sure I could find a powder to load that will do the 1200 fps from the G-29 3.78" barrel but I think I would see case bulges in the stock barrel.

nickE10mm
03-12-2011, 06:28
I have been watching this thread for a while and am trying to figure which 10mm model to get.But what I am wondering is the frame starting to get beat up on your 29 yet?


Thanks

Jason

MY guess would be that his G29 frame is doing fine. I don't know if you could ever wear out a Glock frame (as long as you didn't detonate it)

Kegs
03-12-2011, 10:49
There is no noticeable damage to the frame. The gun works great with these loads - however, they do seriously kick hard. Personally, I would load down just a little for a SD load.

Right now my SD load is 200@1230 avg. as well - but with all new brass.

I wouldn't worry about handloads for s.d. (many people do), but I would be a tad concerned about using RE/loads for them, because the brass gets dinged up some which can affect reliability.

There is probably a better sd load, but I'm not sure if there is one in 10mm that is going to do more damage. :supergrin:

GONIF
03-14-2011, 17:16
If Moose is a problem ,I would opt for a 300 grain solid load in my 454 Casull over any 10mm . I'm an old man and want to get older . You could realy piss off a Moose with a 10 mm ,and you won't like the result . A Marlin 1895 in 4570 or 450 Marlin is lite and handy with the 18 inch barrel .

Jitterbug
03-14-2011, 17:30
I'm betting a Moose shot between the eyes with a 200 gr. 10mm H.C., FMJ, or XTP is probably going to hit the ground just as fast as it would with a 300 gr. bullet from a Casull.

Now if we both miss...I'm betting I'll get a second chance quicker with my semi then you can with a revolver and I just can't find a holster that's handy for that dang 45-70.

Kegs
03-14-2011, 17:49
If Moose is a problem ,I would opt for a 300 grain solid load in my 454 Casull over any 10mm . I'm an old man and want to get older . You could realy piss off a Moose with a 10 mm ,and you won't like the result . A Marlin 1895 in 4570 or 450 Marlin is lite and handy with the 18 inch barrel .

Moose a problem? I don't think so. Shoulder shot w/10mm, drop, gut, quarter, butcher, marinade, grill and eat...no problem!

:wavey:

Besides, I don't have a turbocharged dirty harry 6 gun nor a cowboy saddlebag lever action. They're nice guns if you have them.

All I have is one gun.

I am certain it will be fine for me.

If you don't feel comfortable with me having just one gun, I will always accept donations. :supergrin:

nickE10mm
03-14-2011, 20:10
:) that's the spirit

Jitterbug
03-16-2011, 08:34
Welcome to the forum GONIF

You are of course correct about the Moose, and I wouldn’t argue your choice of caliber, and I'd prefer something a bit hardier then a 10mm if one comes after me.

For all practical purposes though the small 10mm semi-pistol on the hip, beats just about everything else for all day carry in the woods or on a trout stream. We all know that the 10mm is on the low side of the power equation and a big bore revolver would be better.

Those of us who have put in the hours carrying and shooting them, also know they are a PIA to haul around and slow to get off a second shot.

I’m not saying a 10mm with a 200 grain H.C. from a 4-5” barrel is a .44 mag, but there is not a huge difference when compared to a 4” .44 or .45 revolver, especially with the lighter .44 and .45 bullets

Although I do admit it’s significant enough that I'm seriously considering a 4 5/8” SBH in .44 mag., even if it doesn't conceal and carry as well as a 1911, close but not quite.

And I doubt I’ll shoot the real heavies in the interest of recoil management and getting off a second shot. I’m thinking of a 250 gr. Keith style H.C. bullet loaded mid to warm.

So for me what it boils down to is…

.44 Mag 250 gr. Keith H.C. @ 1200 fps
10 mm 200 gr. WNFPGC @ 1200 fps.

And if necessary to use it the focus is going to be on close range head shots…speed and accuracy will be of the essence…for me that edge goes to the 1911 10mm.

In the past I've hauled around large frame .44 mag Smiths (it often wound up in a day pack) for me they are heavy and slow.

I can put more rounds accurately on target quicker with the 10mm that is ALWAYS on my hip, then I can with the .44 mag. the difference is significant. And the fast reload capability just isn’t worth mentioning, even with a speed loader in a D.A.

For me carbines are out of the question for fishing the rivers or hiking in the central part of the Rockies, if I KNEW that Grizz was around then it might be another story, but I’d still have something on my hip.

As far as Moose are concerned, if I KNOW they are around, I simply don’t fish there. Neat animals and I enjoy viewing them from a distance, but cows and calves hang in the dense willows on the river bottoms in the summer and I don’t want to mess with them up close...period. I’m an old man too and I learned long ago to give Moose a wide berth.

We have quite a few here in northern Colorado, and due to over population they are moving around quite a bit these last few years, so you just don’t know for sure where you might bump into one.

CanyonMan
03-16-2011, 12:07
If Moose is a problem ,I would opt for a 300 grain solid load in my 454 Casull over any 10mm . I'm an old man and want to get older . You could realy piss off a Moose with a 10 mm ,and you won't like the result . A Marlin 1895 in 4570 or 450 Marlin is lite and handy with the 18 inch barrel .



This is a very realistic and good commom sennse post. ^^^

10mm is NOT for elk and moose and large/dangerous game, I do not care what rock star does it, hummm, or anyone else did/does, (i have a friend in NM who used 10mm on elk "once".) It is just not the caliber for this type hunting or SD in the woods "on these types aniimals". e.g. Moose, Other types Large dangerous game, Large bear.

Yes y'all know I own, load for and shoot 10mm's. :supergrin:

If your going to use it for hunting, stick to deer. After using it myself on several, I'm not a real fan of that either. It's ok with a heavy 200gr or even a 180gr HC bullet, or even the 200gr XTP, and i know that one or two of you out there have shot some deer with yours. Congrats, and good work.

But guys, deer are really a good maximum place to stop with the 10mm. It ain't a death ray ! :faint:

These rounds (see below) are well suited for game 'over deer size', and as much as I love my 44mags even that, is IMO minimal, for some of the larger critters:

335gr HC 45LC hand gun or rifle. 275/300gr 44mag HC hangun/rifle. 405gr HC 45-70 lever gun.


Some folks who are so worried about attacks and about "packin iron" on your hip to combat the attack, should be faaaaaar more worried about being a poop pile 'with a Glock layin on top of it'. :whistling:


If your not familiar with HC bullets and or large dangerous game, learn before you go and become lunch or a shreded mess. Seriously, the 10mm is just not the gun for these type of animals. I guess it makes some 10mm owners feel better to think it will take anything out there... It won't. The cartridges below in the pics WILL. ;)


Stay safe.





CM
:horse:

GONIF
03-16-2011, 12:35
I'M NOT SAYING YOU CAN'T STOP A MOOSE WITH A 10 MM,I'M SAYING YOU ARE GIVEING THE MOOSE TOO MUCH OF AN EDGE . THE only moose I have shot with a pistol was in 1996 in Alaska on the Kenai peninsula with my Freedom Arms 454 Casull with factory 260 grain hp ammo . It took 3 shots in the chest and neck to stop him ,and 1 more in the head after he droped to kill him . He charged me while I was fishing . I now know that was the wrong ammo ,but I'll bet it was at least as good as any 10 mm load . I have taken 4 Elk in northern Arizona with that same 454 Casull and HP and solid ammo . A moose is a whole lot tuffer and meaner than any Elk .Uncle Ted has taken big game with a 10 mm,so it can be done . I would prefer to die in my nice warm bed at a ripe old age . I also have a S&W 500 that I could use ,but it is so big and kicks so hard you may as well use a Marlin 1895 18 inch in 4570 or 450 marlin . Anyone who has been up close to a moose close enough to smell it knows what I mean .A moose is very Dangerous .

CanyonMan
03-16-2011, 15:33
I'M NOT SAYING YOU CAN'T STOP A MOOSE WITH A 10 MM,I'M SAYING YOU ARE GIVEING THE MOOSE TOO MUCH OF AN EDGE . THE only moose I have shot with a pistol was in 1996 in Alaska on the Kenai peninsula with my Freedom Arms 454 Casull with factory 260 grain hp ammo . It took 3 shots in the chest and neck to stop him ,and 1 more in the head after he droped to kill him . He charged me while I was fishing .

I now know that was the wrong ammo , but I'll bet it was at least as good as any 10 mm load .

I have taken 4 Elk in northern Arizona with that same 454 Casull and HP and solid ammo . A moose is a whole lot tuffer and meaner than any Elk .Uncle Ted has taken big game with a 10 mm,so it can be done . I would prefer to die in my nice warm bed at a ripe old age . I also have a S&W 500 that I could use ,but it is so big and kicks so hard you may as well use a Marlin 1895 18 inch in 4570 or 450 marlin . Anyone who has been up close to a moose close enough to smell it knows what I mean .A moose is very Dangerous .



UH, I think I was agreeing with what you said the first time about po'ing a moose with a 10mm.

In blue letters above here in your post it took all this from a 454 casull and folks think 10mm is enough ?


That is my point exactly. ;)



I now know that was the wrong ammo ,but I'll bet it was at least as good as any 10 mm load


No way is the hottest 10mm load as good as your 454. That will never happen amigo. Not even for the 44mag can the 10mm catch up with heavy bullets..

A moose is very Dangerous

This is very true. All the more, a gun needed to handle it.

A 10mm Is NOT enough for a moose, or large/dangerous game.
Again, 'ted' has done this and that, but that does not mean he's right. I am not sure he has done half of what he says, and of course, yes everyone could believe that of me as well. ha. I'm not a ted fan. Period.

Congrats on your Moose and elk hunts. I like to meet other hand gunners out there. :thumbsup:


Big bores for big hard boned game. BTW, I do own and load for 10mm's. I just got them in their proper perspective of use. Don't want a moose after me with just a 10mm in my hand. :supergrin:



Stay safe





CM
:horse:

Jitterbug
03-16-2011, 16:35
Gonif

Just curious, was the bull in the rut or just plain ornery?

GONIF
03-17-2011, 14:44
I don't think he was in the rut . He saw or heard me and came over to investigate. The closer he got the faster he charged . Why he charged I'll never know . Had I not been armed he would have killed me . The police had me sign a statement ,and kept the moose .Too bad I'll bet he would have grilled up good . I was shocked by how fast a moose can run . :wow:

Kegs
03-17-2011, 14:55
When I lived in Montana I had some friends there tell me they got chased out of a hot spring by a Moose. I have a lot of respect for those stilt-legged cattle. :supergrin:

Jitterbug
03-18-2011, 07:08
Glad you survived to tell the tale...that had to be a harrowing experience, it's good you had the Casull and the cool to use it well.

My Dad had a run in with a young bull during the rut, it managed to hook an antler under the belt of his fanny pack and gave him a heck of a twirl, banged him up but he survived without any long lasting injury.

This was towards the end of his hunting career and he had no desire to shoot anything, he just spent a week each year prowling his old haunts in northern N.H. and although he had a mag in his Remington 740, he didn't have a round chambered, nor the time to do so, as he as completely taken by surprise by the attack.

I've read and heard and don't doubt that Moose cause more deaths in Alaska then bears, we had a Moose trample a kid last summer and one attacked the 92 year old retired mayor of a mountain town with the resulting injuries eventually leading to his to his death.

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/8287043/detail.html

Not to mention the road hazard, hitting one of the long legged beasts, they tend to come through the windshield.

GreatDaneR
12-15-2011, 22:07
This thread reads like a novel. I couldn't 'put it down' and had to know what was going to happen!

Kegs, excellent work. I'm curious if you've resolved your nuclear 200gn load, or are you still searching?

G29SF
12-20-2011, 15:21
My assertion is that 200gr bullets at much over 1200fps (1225? I don't know, but it's in there, certainly before you get to 1300) in a standard length barrel are developing in excess of 37,500psi.




So what do you think about Swamp Fox's max velocity loads? One I frequently shot was his 200gr XTP @ 1325 fps (780 ft/lbs). Yes, I know this was his hottest/maximum velocity/fully supported barrel only load. With my KKM barrel and 23# recoil spring, I never had any issues.

No primers popping. No smiles.

I believe Mike said he still stayed at or below the 37,500 psi limit. I don't remember if that was max or average.

He even posted his recipe: 200gr XTP, 10gr Lonshot, 300cci primer, 1.250" COL.

Here is a thread that discussed it: http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1357227 (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1357227)

I am not arguing here. Just trying to learn as much as I can. I really miss his ammo and will probably start reloading myself because of it. I currently shoot Underwood and love it, however I want to get back to what Mike was offering.

Another favorite of mine that Mike offered was his 135gr Noslers @ 1700 fps (865 ft/lbs). I don't know his recipe for that, but they were really nice to shoot. Again, no problems.

arushus
12-20-2011, 19:26
I can not believe that 200gr xtp load with 10gr of longshot! Book max is 8.2gr! How in the world was he able to do this?

21Carrier
12-21-2011, 04:08
So what do you think about Swamp Fox's max velocity loads? One I frequently shot was his 200gr XTP @ 1325 fps (780 ft/lbs). Yes, I know this was his hottest/maximum velocity/fully supported barrel only load. With my KKM barrel and 23# recoil spring, I never had any issues.

No primers popping. No smiles.

I believe Mike said he still stayed at or below the 37,500 psi limit. I don't remember if that was max or average.

He even posted his recipe: 200gr XTP, 10gr Lonshot, 300cci primer, 1.250" COL.

Here is a thread that discussed it: http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1357227 (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1357227)

I am not arguing here. Just trying to learn as much as I can. I really miss his ammo and will probably start reloading myself because of it. I currently shoot Underwood and love it, however I want to get back to what Mike was offering.

Another favorite of mine that Mike offered was his 135gr Noslers @ 1700 fps (865 ft/lbs). I don't know his recipe for that, but they were really nice to shoot. Again, no problems.

I can not believe that 200gr xtp load with 10gr of longshot! Book max is 8.2gr! How in the world was he able to do this?

Mike's 200gr XTP @1325fps was over 37,500psi. He posted it somewhere, but I believe it was right at 40k psi. He told us that all of his standard loads were at or below 37.5k psi, but there were like two or three of the fully supported loads that were above SAAMI max. None were over 40k, though. I believe his fully-supported 135gr load was also above SAAMI; 38,500psi if I remember correctly. The thread is somewhere in the 10 Ring. It should be around August or September.

G29SF, once you start reloading, you can work up to Mike's 135gr load. He surely used Longshot, but you can also get there with 800-X. ALL OF THE FOLLOWING DATA IS SERIOUSLY HOT, AND MAY VERY WELL BLOW UP YOUR GUN, WORK UP SAFELY!!! With 13.0gr 800-X, CCI 300s, 135gr Nosler JHPs, COAL 1.260", you should hit about 1650fps in a 4.5" barrel. Kegs hits 1700fps with his 13.3gr load in his KKM 4.45" barrel. 13.0gr is safe in MY stock G29 barrel for 1575fps.

Using Longshot, I know Mike had gone as far as FIFTEEN grains (though I don't know what primers, COAL or barrel he used, so expect a KB at that level)!!! We talked at length about getting the 125gr Barnes TAC-XP up around 1600fps, and he told me that. He told me to load Longshot 1:1 with 800-X, and the velocity/pressure should be similar. So, that means about 13.0gr of Longshot should be in that neighborhood. However, you will likely need CCI350s (magnum primers) with Longshot. With my short barrel, I run into a ceiling at about 1300fps with the light bullets. I never tried magnum primers, but I think they would be the answer. The one powder that keeps building speed is 800-X. It never hit the "standard primer ceiling" like Longshot, Power Pistol, Blue Dot and Unique did. Results with standard primers might be better with a longer barrel. Anyway, these charges should get you in that ballpark, just be SUPER careful with working up to them. All of them should be max or getting close. Also, remember throwing magnum primers into ANY of this data COMPLETELY erases anything I've said. ALL of my data is with standards. Hope this helps.

G29SF
12-21-2011, 09:26
I can not believe that 200gr xtp load with 10gr of longshot! Book max is 8.2gr! How in the world was he able to do this?

This is the load that he "required" an aftermarket barrel and 22#+ recoil spring.

I used a KKM barrel (in both my G20SF and G29SF) and a stiffer spring since the get-go (22# in my G20SF and 23# in my G29SF). I never had any issues whatsoever shooting his nuclear loads.

They were hot and kicked for sure. But they were awesome!

I shot his 200gr XTPs @ 1325 fps / 780 ft/lbs, his 180gr XTPs @ 1400 fps / 780 ft/lbs and his 135gr Noslers @ 1700 fps / 865 ft/lbs. And I shot them a lot. Never a blown primer or smile.

I have no chrony results of my own, however a lot of posters have backed up Mike's claims.

I sure miss being able to buy his ammo...

nickE10mm
12-21-2011, 09:37
Mike's 200gr XTP @1325fps was over 37,500psi. He posted it somewhere, but I believe it was right at 40k psi. He told us that all of his standard loads were at or below 37.5k psi, but there were like two or three of the fully supported loads that were above SAAMI max. None were over 40k, though. I believe his fully-supported 135gr load was also above SAAMI; 38,500psi if I remember correctly. The thread is somewhere in the 10 Ring. It should be around August or September.

G29SF, once you start reloading, you can work up to Mike's 135gr load. He surely used Longshot, but you can also get there with 800-X. ALL OF THE FOLLOWING DATA IS SERIOUSLY HOT, AND MAY VERY WELL BLOW UP YOUR GUN, WORK UP SAFELY!!! With 13.0gr 800-X, CCI 300s, 135gr Nosler JHPs, COAL 1.260", you should hit about 1650fps in a 4.5" barrel. Kegs hits 1700fps with his 13.3gr load in his KKM 4.45" barrel. 13.0gr is safe in MY stock G29 barrel for 1575fps.

Using Longshot, I know Mike had gone as far as FIFTEEN grains (though I don't know what primers, COAL or barrel he used, so expect a KB at that level)!!! We talked at length about getting the 125gr Barnes TAC-XP up around 1600fps, and he told me that. He told me to load Longshot 1:1 with 800-X, and the velocity/pressure should be similar. So, that means about 13.0gr of Longshot should be in that neighborhood. However, you will likely need CCI350s (magnum primers) with Longshot. With my short barrel, I run into a ceiling at about 1300fps with the light bullets. I never tried magnum primers, but I think they would be the answer. The one powder that keeps building speed is 800-X. It never hit the "standard primer ceiling" like Longshot, Power Pistol, Blue Dot and Unique did. Results with standard primers might be better with a longer barrel. Anyway, these charges should get you in that ballpark, just be SUPER careful with working up to them. All of them should be max or getting close. Also, remember throwing magnum primers into ANY of this data COMPLETELY erases anything I've said. ALL of my data is with standards. Hope this helps.

I'm actually in the process of working up a nuclear 200gr XTP load with Longshot that is based on info I got from Mike (SF Ammo). This is purely for velocity / pressure mapping. I've got some test loads at 8.2gr up through 9.0gr of LS and will reevaluate how much further its safe to go after I get these measured. I'll have my chrono over Christmas break so hopefully I'll have the data when I get back. I'm hoping to get a solid 1300fps load for the 200gr XTP with Longshot. I'll be doing this workup in my Fusion so I will never make it to 10.0gr as, per Mike's suggestion, 6" barrel workups must be reduced slightly due to the pressure curve with the longer barrel. Maybe someday I'll have funds for a stock-length LW, KKM or Barsto bbl for my Glock 20 and I'll do the workup for it, too.

I'll keep you all posted.

G29SF
12-22-2011, 09:23
I'm actually in the process of working up a nuclear 200gr XTP load with Longshot that is based on info I got from Mike (SF Ammo). This is purely for velocity / pressure mapping. I've got some test loads at 8.2gr up through 9.0gr of LS and will reevaluate how much further its safe to go after I get these measured. I'll have my chrono over Christmas break so hopefully I'll have the data when I get back. I'm hoping to get a solid 1300fps load for the 200gr XTP with Longshot. I'll be doing this workup in my Fusion so I will never make it to 10.0gr as, per Mike's suggestion, 6" barrel workups must be reduced slightly due to the pressure curve with the longer barrel. Maybe someday I'll have funds for a stock-length LW, KKM or Barsto bbl for my Glock 20 and I'll do the workup for it, too.

I'll keep you all posted.

Thanks. Look forward to your findings. A press is in my future and can't wait to make some of my own decent loads.

_The_Shadow
12-22-2011, 10:00
Don't get the data for the two different Mike's (Mike McNett of DT and Mike Willard (mudrush) of Swamp Fox) confused!

Carrier's post...I think is Mike McNett's post in the Hodgdon power section.
Originally Posted by 21Carrier http://glocktalk.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=18316332#post18316332)
Mike's 200gr XTP @1325fps was over 37,500psi. He posted it somewhere, but I believe it was right at 40k psi. He told us that all of his standard loads were at or below 37.5k psi, but there were like two or three of the fully supported loads that were above SAAMI max. None were over 40k, though. I believe his fully-supported 135gr load was also above SAAMI; 38,500psi if I remember correctly. The thread is somewhere in the 10 Ring. It should be around August or September.


NickE10mm's post is refereing to Mike Willard (Mudrush of SwampFox) This was refereing to the post in July where Mudrush shared his 10.0 grain testing of Hodgdon's LongShot with the 200Grain XTP.
Originally Posted by nickE10mm http://glocktalk.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=18317097#post18317097)
I'm actually in the process of working up a nuclear 200gr XTP load with Longshot that is based on info I got from Mike (SF Ammo). This is purely for velocity / pressure mapping. I've got some test loads at 8.2gr up through 9.0gr of LS and will reevaluate how much further its safe to go after I get these measured. I'll have my chrono over Christmas break so hopefully I'll have the data when I get back. I'm hoping to get a solid 1300fps load for the 200gr XTP with Longshot. I'll be doing this workup in my Fusion so I will never make it to 10.0gr as, per Mike's suggestion, 6" barrel workups must be reduced slightly due to the pressure curve with the longer barrel. Maybe someday I'll have funds for a stock-length LW, KKM or Barsto bbl for my Glock 20 and I'll do the workup for it, too.

I'll keep you all posted.

nickE10mm
12-22-2011, 10:05
Don't get the data for the two different Mike's (Mike McNett of DT and Mike Willard (mudrush) of Swamp Fox) confused!

Carrier's post...I think is Mike McNett's post in the Hodgdon power section.


NickE10mm's post is refereing to Mike Willard (Mudrush of SwampFox) This was refereing to the post in July where Mudrush shared his 10.0 grain testing of Hodgdon's LongShot with the 200Grain XTP.

Actually, both 21 and my post were referring to Mike Willard of Swampfox's ammo / posts. Mike McNett never posted anything over 8.2gr LS that I know of.

:cool:

nickE10mm
12-22-2011, 10:11
Thanks. Look forward to your findings. A press is in my future and can't wait to make some of my own decent loads.

Yes, sir... I will definitely post my findings ... .maybe as soon as this weekend but most likely around Tuesday when I get back into town.

Also, I just found out that my Dad's new G20SF has the NEW slide finish (gray). I'll be doing some side by side pics and impressions of the finish, as well as some other goodies like my new red dot 22/45.

Woohoo!

_The_Shadow
12-22-2011, 10:23
Back in July Keg's asked Mike(mudrush) how did he do that?...200gr @ 1325 fps (XTP & FMJ)

thread here:http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1357227
See post number #20

When McNett posted the pressure numbers it was for 800X see post number 3
http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=179348

nickE10mm
12-22-2011, 10:27
Back in July Keg's asked Mike(mudrush) how did he do that?...200gr @ 1325 fps (XTP & FMJ)

thread here:http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1357227
See post number #20

Yep, "mudrush" (the late Mike @ SF) gave his 10.0gr LS load (1325) up in this thread.... great thread, btw.

"MCNETT" (Mike McNett @ DT) hasn't posted anything I've ever found that's over his 8.2gr load in the Hodgdon 10mm Reloading thread.

_The_Shadow
12-22-2011, 10:36
You can refer to post number 33, on July 26th from Mudrush where he talks about the pressure rising in the 6" barrel to 38,000+ psi

You thanked Mike on post number 37

nickE10mm
12-22-2011, 10:56
You can refer to post number 33, on July 26th from Mudrush where he talks about the pressure rising in the 6" barrel to 38,000+ psi

You thanked Mike on post number 37

Agreed.... mudrush is Mike @ SF, not Mike @ DT :)

_The_Shadow
12-22-2011, 11:01
Yea, I think, I am just trying to keep it all staraight in my mind, as mush as providing insight to others just visiting the party!

Good luck Nick, looking forward to the results!

nickE10mm
12-22-2011, 11:03
Yea, I think, I am just trying to keep it all staraight in my mind, as mush as providing insight to others just visiting the party!

Good luck Nick, looking forward to the results!

Understood, good buddy. Have a great holiday and TRY AND SHOW YOUR 10's SOME LOVE OVER THE BREAK!! :supergrin:

nickE10mm
12-27-2011, 08:03
Thanks. Look forward to your findings. A press is in my future and can't wait to make some of my own decent loads.

Well, I'm back in town from the holiday trip I took and I didn't get a chance to chrono any of my loads... hopefully I can get out to my buddy's parents house in the next week or two and do the tests.

Kegs
12-27-2011, 17:19
Awesome. I can't wait to hear the results of this. :supergrin:

Try not to blow up that cool a55 gun of yours! :wavey:

For me, I'm sticking to the light and fast rounds for a while.

I might look into those 135gr. hcl boolits though...

If I can get those spinning 1700 too, well then............... :supergrin: