9mm/.357sig/40cal/45acp/10mm question? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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M&P Shooter
08-30-2010, 18:25
I don't want to hear what is better I want to know if anybody has a link to any site that has done some testing on animals(Not gel) or compared LE shootings involving service handgun calibers. I just want to do a little research on a comparison of service calibers against something with skin and bones:wavey:

MrSmoofy
08-30-2010, 18:54
(tagged as I'm interested in this too)

fredj338
08-31-2010, 02:17
I doubt you'll find that sort of official testing. PETA would be all over that one. It's why everyone uses balistic gel, it's repeatable, & no one protests. The next best thing, someone that hunts a lot of deer or hogs w/ diff service rounds.

mikeflys1
08-31-2010, 02:18
tagged

PersonOfInterest
08-31-2010, 03:26
Only my own testing and out of the calibers youve mentioned the only i havent tryed with my culling (pest control) is the 10mm, although i have shot a few.
That being said a fast 9mm or 357sig (top score goes the 357magnum) to me have been the best (all things considered) but its never black and white.

BleedNOrange
08-31-2010, 08:49
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/FieldReportDeer.htm

older article from 2003. Author shoots a deer with a win ranger 9mm 127 +p+. Pretty good results and details.

cowboy1964
08-31-2010, 09:35
The only formal animal testing I've heard of was the Strasbourg Tests. I've not even convinced that ever actually happened.

fredj338
08-31-2010, 12:02
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/FieldReportDeer.htm

older article from 2003. Author shoots a deer with a win ranger 9mm 127 +p+. Pretty good results and details.
There are lots of antecdotal stories, but hardly statistical testing. M&S would be more reliable IMO than "I shot a deer @ this range & the bullet did this". One animal is nice, 100 is getting into imperical.

Berto
08-31-2010, 12:58
Old, but look up Thompson/ LaGarde.

BleedNOrange
08-31-2010, 13:01
There are lots of antecdotal stories, but hardly statistical testing. M&S would be more reliable IMO than "I shot a deer @ this range & the bullet did this". One animal is nice, 100 is getting into imperical.
The OP asked for examples of real results. THIS was a real result. Sorry it didnt meet your approval. The author probably does have "empirical" data however this was just one example.

fredj338
08-31-2010, 13:22
The OP asked for examples of real results. THIS was a real result. Sorry it didnt meet your approval. The author probably does have "empirical" data however this was just one example.

No need to be a dick. The OP actually asked for a link to comperative testing between animlas & people. My point is one single "I did this" is anecdotal, not scientific. Play nice, I try, but some make it difficult.:dunno:

chemcmndr
08-31-2010, 16:10
What about Marshall & Sannow's data? Wasn't that compiled from police shootings? I understand several people don't like their data analysis method, but I think it's something more than just ballistic gel tests.

marvin
08-31-2010, 17:09
it's a long way from a 100 but i've shot 11 deer with a .357, 8 were shot with 158 grain rem sjhp reloads loaded to 1400 fps. inside of 30 yards all of the bullets exited, only a couple fell right there, none ran over 75 yards.

then i read where a hunter was getting good results with 125 grain jhp's so i gave them a try reload to 1600 fps. the first 2 dropped right there. the third one was at a bit of an angle and i hit the shoulder. well she lead me on a marry chase, i was able to end about a 1/4 mile away. the bullet tore up the shoulder pretty bad and just barely got on lung.

what i decided was that one a true broadside the 125 worked good but hard angles are a no no. i soon switched to a muzzeloader and haven't use a hand gun in 20 years.

ps. all of the deer weighed form about 100 pounds to just shy of 200.

ldrichard
08-31-2010, 19:16
http://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0701/0701267.pdf

This is a copy of the results of the Strasbourg Tests.

The tables of interest begin on Page 11. The last column (AIT) for each load is the one you are interested in.

AIT = Average Incapacition Time for that round, in that caliber, in that gun.

The first ten pages are good for those who care about the technical information.

Have a nice read.

BleedNOrange
08-31-2010, 19:33
No need to be a dick. The OP actually asked for a link to comperative testing between animlas & people. My point is one single "I did this" is anecdotal, not scientific. Play nice, I try, but some make it difficult.:dunno:
Piss off. At least I offered a link to a real result. All you have done is flap your trap. Go bother someone else.

jwizzl497
08-31-2010, 20:47
Just an FYI. I took the data form the report. I averaged the ATI scores for each caliber and then sorted by average ati smallest to largest. Here are the results.

<TABLE style="WIDTH: 144pt; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=191><COLGROUP><COL style="WIDTH: 62pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 2998" width=82><COL style="WIDTH: 82pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 3986" width=109><TBODY><TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #f0f0f0; BORDER-LEFT: #f0f0f0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; WIDTH: 62pt; HEIGHT: 15pt; BORDER-TOP: #f0f0f0; BORDER-RIGHT: #f0f0f0" class=xl63 height=20 width=82>.357Mag </TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #f0f0f0; BORDER-LEFT: #f0f0f0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; WIDTH: 82pt; BORDER-TOP: #f0f0f0; BORDER-RIGHT: #f0f0f0" class=xl65 width=109 align=right>7.36</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #f0f0f0; BORDER-LEFT: #f0f0f0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; HEIGHT: 15pt; BORDER-TOP: #f0f0f0; BORDER-RIGHT: #f0f0f0" class=xl63 height=20>10mmMV </TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #f0f0f0; BORDER-LEFT: #f0f0f0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: #f0f0f0; BORDER-RIGHT: #f0f0f0" class=xl65 align=right>7.59</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #f0f0f0; BORDER-LEFT: #f0f0f0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; HEIGHT: 15pt; BORDER-TOP: #f0f0f0; BORDER-RIGHT: #f0f0f0" class=xl63 height=20>.45ACP </TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #f0f0f0; BORDER-LEFT: #f0f0f0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: #f0f0f0; BORDER-RIGHT: #f0f0f0" class=xl64 align=right>7.83</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #f0f0f0; BORDER-LEFT: #f0f0f0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; HEIGHT: 15pt; BORDER-TOP: #f0f0f0; BORDER-RIGHT: #f0f0f0" class=xl63 height=20>.40S&W </TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #f0f0f0; BORDER-LEFT: #f0f0f0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: #f0f0f0; BORDER-RIGHT: #f0f0f0" class=xl65 align=right>7.96</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #f0f0f0; BORDER-LEFT: #f0f0f0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; HEIGHT: 15pt; BORDER-TOP: #f0f0f0; BORDER-RIGHT: #f0f0f0" class=xl63 height=20>9mm </TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #f0f0f0; BORDER-LEFT: #f0f0f0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: #f0f0f0; BORDER-RIGHT: #f0f0f0" class=xl66 align=right>9.28</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #f0f0f0; BORDER-LEFT: #f0f0f0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; HEIGHT: 15pt; BORDER-TOP: #f0f0f0; BORDER-RIGHT: #f0f0f0" class=xl63 height=20>.38Sp </TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #f0f0f0; BORDER-LEFT: #f0f0f0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: #f0f0f0; BORDER-RIGHT: #f0f0f0" class=xl65 align=right>11.74</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #f0f0f0; BORDER-LEFT: #f0f0f0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; HEIGHT: 15pt; BORDER-TOP: #f0f0f0; BORDER-RIGHT: #f0f0f0" class=xl63 height=20>.380ACP </TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #f0f0f0; BORDER-LEFT: #f0f0f0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: #f0f0f0; BORDER-RIGHT: #f0f0f0" class=xl65 align=right>13.24</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Interestingly enough, I found this tends to agree with other paper data. I often find that "Paper Data" (although absolutley inconclusive of any real word results) tends to product a similiar ranking. For what it's worth (and serioulsy its worth nothing becuase we all know there is no such thing as stopping power) I find this pattern recurring and interesting, nonetheless...

The 10mm usually comes out first, followed very closely by 45acp, whose followed very closely by 357sig. The 40sw seems to be a very very close to 357sig but ever so slightly behind by a small margin. The 9mm, imo, seems to be a noticeable step behind the others and the 380s are an even greater lag behind the 9. I never saw this data before and I really think it's interesting that it seems to fit this ranking well. Shame there was no 357sig in the mix but I imagine it would have produced worse but similiar results to the 357mag.

cowboy1964
08-31-2010, 23:19
Just an FYI. I took the data form the report. I averaged the ATI scores for each caliber and then sorted by average ati smallest to largest. Here are the results.

<TABLE style="WIDTH: 144pt; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=191><COLGROUP><COL style="WIDTH: 62pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 2998" width=82><COL style="WIDTH: 82pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 3986" width=109><TBODY><TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #f0f0f0; BORDER-LEFT: #f0f0f0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; WIDTH: 62pt; HEIGHT: 15pt; BORDER-TOP: #f0f0f0; BORDER-RIGHT: #f0f0f0" class=xl63 height=20 width=82>.357Mag </TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #f0f0f0; BORDER-LEFT: #f0f0f0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; WIDTH: 82pt; BORDER-TOP: #f0f0f0; BORDER-RIGHT: #f0f0f0" class=xl65 width=109 align=right>7.36</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #f0f0f0; BORDER-LEFT: #f0f0f0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; HEIGHT: 15pt; BORDER-TOP: #f0f0f0; BORDER-RIGHT: #f0f0f0" class=xl63 height=20>10mmMV </TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #f0f0f0; BORDER-LEFT: #f0f0f0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: #f0f0f0; BORDER-RIGHT: #f0f0f0" class=xl65 align=right>7.59</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #f0f0f0; BORDER-LEFT: #f0f0f0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; HEIGHT: 15pt; BORDER-TOP: #f0f0f0; BORDER-RIGHT: #f0f0f0" class=xl63 height=20>.45ACP </TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #f0f0f0; BORDER-LEFT: #f0f0f0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: #f0f0f0; BORDER-RIGHT: #f0f0f0" class=xl64 align=right>7.83</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #f0f0f0; BORDER-LEFT: #f0f0f0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; HEIGHT: 15pt; BORDER-TOP: #f0f0f0; BORDER-RIGHT: #f0f0f0" class=xl63 height=20>.40S&W </TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #f0f0f0; BORDER-LEFT: #f0f0f0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: #f0f0f0; BORDER-RIGHT: #f0f0f0" class=xl65 align=right>7.96</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #f0f0f0; BORDER-LEFT: #f0f0f0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; HEIGHT: 15pt; BORDER-TOP: #f0f0f0; BORDER-RIGHT: #f0f0f0" class=xl63 height=20>9mm </TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #f0f0f0; BORDER-LEFT: #f0f0f0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: #f0f0f0; BORDER-RIGHT: #f0f0f0" class=xl66 align=right>9.28</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #f0f0f0; BORDER-LEFT: #f0f0f0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; HEIGHT: 15pt; BORDER-TOP: #f0f0f0; BORDER-RIGHT: #f0f0f0" class=xl63 height=20>.38Sp </TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #f0f0f0; BORDER-LEFT: #f0f0f0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: #f0f0f0; BORDER-RIGHT: #f0f0f0" class=xl65 align=right>11.74</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #f0f0f0; BORDER-LEFT: #f0f0f0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; HEIGHT: 15pt; BORDER-TOP: #f0f0f0; BORDER-RIGHT: #f0f0f0" class=xl63 height=20>.380ACP </TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #f0f0f0; BORDER-LEFT: #f0f0f0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: #f0f0f0; BORDER-RIGHT: #f0f0f0" class=xl65 align=right>13.24</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


Thanks for doing that. The figures do fall quite in line with what one would expect. It also shows how little difference there is between the major calibers (9mm and up). I notice in the raw data though that there is a lot of variation among each caliber depending on the ammo. So a good 9mm can beat a poor 45. Again, nothing new.

Gotta take this data with a grain of salt of course. The lighter, frangible bullets way outperformed the heavier JHPs yet I don't think that translates to the real world exactly. It almost looks like a commercial for MagSafe.

Glolt20-91
09-01-2010, 00:36
.357mag/158gr Remington SJHPs had an excellent one shot, one stop record regarding OIS in the state I worked. Paco Kelly writes the same terminal results with Federal agencies who carried Winchester 158gr JHPs (and 160gr); Paco also writes that the 125gr SJHP was lethal when it performed. There were times when the soft lead hollow points clogged upon penetrating certain types of clothing.

From Paco Kelly;

While a law enforcement officer with over 30 years, and 23 years of that, just in the drug control and homicide areas...I had the opportunity to see at extremely close hand the results of way over a dozen shootings involving the 357...and had agency records on hundreds more. There is no argument for me as to the 357s ability as a defense caliber with the right ammunition. One of my ancillary duties at one time, was as the Chief Firearms Officer for DEA for the Southern District of Arizona. But I was privy to all shootings occurring everywhere, in the Department of Justice agencies, for more than a decade. At the time a number of those agencies were required to carry the 357. So there were lots of that caliber involved in shootings. The general pubic has no idea as to the number of shootings in the enforcement arenas that go on each year. In fact the anti gunners love to add in the police shootings to the number of humans killed each year by handguns. Very tacky on their part. As most police agencies learned, the 357 is an exceptionally pragmatic and efficient weapon for enforcement purposes when loaded with the right ammo. Those in my agencies that carried the 357 had to carry as a minimum 158/160grain magnum plus P loads.

. . . With a handgun used for defense inside a house or apartment, the 110 to 125 grain 357 commercial rounds are acceptable to me for only one reason....they tend not to penetrate fully the walls or slow down greatly going thru one. Probably the most deadly commercial round we used in the 1970s and 1980s was the Remington 125 grain scallop hollow pointed 357, when it worked properly. But we had a large number of shootings where that bullet...the best of the best then...failed to open when penetrating heavy clothing...especially leather jackets. The various 110 or less weighted hollow points are for home protection only as far as I’m concerned. At across the room distances and with near muzzle energy and velocity they are I feel, in the same class as heavy loaded 32 H&R magnums and light bullet 9 mms. I’m not saying they won’t do the job...I’m saying that is their place. Not for the varied and sometimes difficult situations police get into.


From a homicide detective I know who worked in a high crime city, referring to a home invasion, self defense shooting the Rem 158gr SJHP;

Bob,

I do agree with you findings, the 357 mag wounds I witnessed were devastating with large exit wounds. In my estimation, it is the most deadly of commonly used side arms. The kinetic energy transfer to the body (the light bullet slows rapidly causing a tremendous vibration and wound channel) the tissue build up in front of the projectile made for dynamic exit wounds.

Back in the 70's and 80's my entry gun for serving warrants was a 2.5" Model 19 S&W 357 in an upside down shoulder rig. With a Colt Detective Special on my hip.

The draw backs to the 357 is it's over penetration and violent kick in shorter barrels. I can carry a Colt Defender or my Commander with more comfort, have better rapid fire capability and less concern for over penetration.


In all the various types of testing I've done, I've never seen either the 125gr/158gr shallow cavity design Gold Dots fail to expand.

Bob :cowboy:

fredj338
09-01-2010, 13:07
Piss off. At least I offered a link to a real result. All you have done is flap your trap. Go bother someone else.
Well, I don't offer links to irrelevent info. Sorry if that doesn't meet your mall ninja status. Geeze kid, grow up. I love how tough internet commandos are.:yawn:

jwizzl497
09-01-2010, 19:02
It almost looks like a commercial for MagSafe.

I was thinking the same thing. You are also absolutely correct in that a good performing 9mm can outperform a 45acp round. Which leads to even more paralysis of analysis. Bottom line is research, test, practice with the caliber you have.

Mrs_Esterhouse
10-03-2010, 22:57
I don't want to hear what is better I want to know if anybody has a link to any site that has done some testing on animals(Not gel) or compared LE shootings involving service handgun calibers. I just want to do a little research on a comparison of service calibers against something with skin and bones:wavey:

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1188579&highlight=goat&page=23
post #554

Glolt20-91
10-03-2010, 23:31
http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1188579&highlight=goat&page=23
post #554

Nice link. :supergrin:

Bob :cowboy:

shooting4pizza
10-03-2010, 23:38
Here is the One Shot Stop info:

http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppingpower.asp?Caliber=0&Weight=All

1smoothredneck
10-04-2010, 14:00
Marshall and Sanow list actual shooting results, as already noted. Massad Ayoob references slaughterhouse results in much of his writing.
Good Luck

English
10-04-2010, 16:12
Old, but look up Thompson/ LaGarde.

If you actually read the Thompson LaGarde reports of their experiments they were embarrassingly incompetent to determine anything other than the relative momentum of the bullets used and that could have been done by simple calculation. It is quite clear that they were sent out to do some tests to make it look as though there was a scientific foundation for the change to .45ACP.

English