Seating bullets crooked? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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srt-4_jon
09-01-2010, 21:12
I am a pretty new reloader but I have loaded 10mm and 5.7x28mm very successfully. I seem to be having a problem with my Lee seating die when trying to load 9mm. I loaded 50 rounds tonight and quit because I got 12 rounds where the bullet was not seated straight and bunched up the jacketing on the case wall. I made sure all the dies are adjusted correctly and made sure the mouths were getting enough flare but I cant make it seat the bullets straight. It also seems that even the bullets that didnt scrape the wall of the casing look a tad bit crooked. If it matters, I am using Berry's 124gr hollow points. Is there something I am doing wrong?

Here is a picture of the bunched up jacketing I am talking about. Ignore the different OAL. Once I felt it bunching up, I quit.



http://i765.photobucket.com/albums/xx292/srt-4_jon/DSC_0175.jpg

Lothar
09-01-2010, 21:15
are you using the right insert in the die? there is a rounded one for FMJ and a flat one for hollow points.

bmylesk
09-01-2010, 21:15
WOW!!! very interesting. sorry i have no info to give you, not an expert on this.:wow:

srt-4_jon
09-01-2010, 21:19
are you using the right insert in the die? there is a rounded one for FMJ and a flat one for hollow points.
There is only 1 insert and it is rounded.

Daryl in Az
09-02-2010, 04:18
The rounded insert is most likely your problem. The insert needs to fit the bullet shape.

I use RCBS dies, and they come with all the needed inserts.

Daryl

shotgunred
09-02-2010, 04:51
You are not flaring the mouth of your brass enough!
which press are you using? It will be easier to tell you how to fix it if we know. On a dillion you turn your powder shoot deeper into the press.
the step after priming is adjusting your flair and dumping powder. You need enough flair or bell to were the bullet can easily be pushed into the case.

srt-4_jon
09-02-2010, 05:07
You are not flaring the mouth of your brass enough!
which press are you using? It will be easier to tell you how to fix it if we know. On a dillion you turn your powder shoot deeper into the press.
the step after priming is adjusting your flair and dumping powder. You need enough flair or bell to were the bullet can easily be pushed into the case.
I am using a Lyman turret press. I set up the expander die exactly like Lee says in the manual (touching the press arm, then turned 1 turn out).

unclebob
09-02-2010, 06:32
Measure your belled mouth. It should be between 10 and 20 thousands of an inch. Not enough is just as bad as too much.
Check your press for misalignment.
Are you using a seat and crimp die? If your are, it is not adjusted right.

Colorado4Wheel
09-02-2010, 07:12
Not enough bell. Those are plated bullet from the look as well. I have my flare set to .015" but I don't load plated.

creophus
09-02-2010, 07:24
Another vote for not enough bell on the case mouth. If you can, post a pic or two of cases with the mouth belled. We'll probably be able to see if you have enough on it or not.

I use Lee dies and never had a problem with them only having a rounded seater.

It's also possible that something is loose on the press, but I'm not familiar with a Lyman Turret.

Colorado4Wheel
09-02-2010, 07:28
My Lee seaters have been better then other more expensive dies. Better! not "just as good". Not saying there doesn't exist a better die but I use a Lee seater in 9mm because it's the best I have tried.

whatsupglock
09-02-2010, 07:30
Not enough bell. You're stripping the jacket/coating right off the bullet. Bell is very tricky, too much bad, not enough, as you've seen...bad. Also make sure you are setting the bullet as close to vertical as possible on the casing when you press it in.

You mentioned you set the press up to spec, but you are loading your bullets on your press for your gun. Whats real in the moment and what some guy at a desk typing a manual for a press he's probably never even used, heck there's a chance he's never even fired a handgun, is a very different thing. Trust yourself. Look at the bullets! Throw the manual away.

oneofthose
09-02-2010, 07:36
Its possible the crimper is contacting the case mouth before the bullet is seated. Try backing it out or seating in a separate step.

Dogue
09-02-2010, 08:31
I agree it's likely a lack of bellying (is that a word?), but I had a similar issue with rifle ammo and took apart and cleaned the seating die...problem fixed. Make sure the insert isn't off-center. Also make sure your turret is snug, but not too tight that it can't rotate.

GioaJack
09-02-2010, 08:55
The belling of a case mouth is surrounded by as many myths as UFO's and amicable divorces... forget what you may have heard and use common sense.

Think about what you're trying to accomplish... flaring the case mouth enough for the bullet to be seated in a reasonably straight vertical position in the case mouth and then be seated with out scraping off material.

Now think of the two consequences if you flare the case mouth too much. 1) You can flare so much that the case mouth will be too wide to actually fit into your seating die... it will actually take on the appearance of the bell on a trumpet. Obviously this is too much flare and your expander plug needs to be backed out. (Most likely Cobra64 will be along and post his world famous picture of his absurdly flared 9mm case which looks like a mushroom. It's his only claim to fame in life.)

2) You can technically flare too much but yet meet your goal of seating the bullet correctly. The only downside to this is the brass tends to get work hardened a bit sooner than using less flare. Pretty much a non-event since you're going to lose the brass well before it becomes unserviceable.

Donate your calipers to an under privileged junior high school, you do not need them for setting up your expanding die. Simply eyeball it. You should see a definite flare at the case mouth that holds the bullet upright and allows it to sit down in the case below the top of the mouth. When seating the bullet no material, be it lead, plate or copper should be scraped off. Don't complicate this stuff and forget about these unnecessary measurements mentioned about belling and crimp. Other than too short of an OAL that can raise pressure or too long of an OAL that can impact on lands or effect magazine functioning there is nothing a pair of calipers can do that the eye can't. (Somebody call 911 and get them over to Little Stevie's house... he's having a heart attack right about now.)

Depending on how you're seating your bullet, in one or two dies, make sure your crimp function in a one die procedure doesn't crimp until the bullet is almost completely seated. If you use two dies, (seat then crimp) this is not a concern. Contrary to popular opinion a one die system works every bit as well... you just have to be disciplined enough to learn how to use it.

This stuff is as easy as breathing... don't over think it.


Jack

DoctaGlockta
09-02-2010, 08:57
I had the same problem when I started reloading.


http://www.provocativeplanet.com/cowbell.JPG

Boxerglocker
09-02-2010, 09:09
One more vote for not enough flare (bell). Lead or plated bullets better to have a little too much than too little. I target about .020 flare lead and plated bullets.

srt-4_jon
09-02-2010, 09:29
Measure your belled mouth. It should be between 10 and 20 thousands of an inch. Not enough is just as bad as too much.
Check your press for misalignment.
Are you using a seat and crimp die? If your are, it is not adjusted right.
The press is aligned. I load 5.7 and 10mm on it with no problems. I am using the Lee 3pc carbide set. I assume that the seating die also crimps a bit.

Not enough bell. Those are plated bullet from the look as well. I have my flare set to .015" but I don't load plated.
They are plated bullets.

Not enough bell. You're stripping the jacket/coating right off the bullet. Bell is very tricky, too much bad, not enough, as you've seen...bad. Also make sure you are setting the bullet as close to vertical as possible on the casing when you press it in.

You mentioned you set the press up to spec, but you are loading your bullets on your press for your gun. Whats real in the moment and what some guy at a desk typing a manual for a press he's probably never even used, heck there's a chance he's never even fired a handgun, is a very different thing. Trust yourself. Look at the bullets! Throw the manual away.
I thought that too so I tightened up the expander plug to give it more of a flare.

I did adjust the seating die to set the bullet in the casing further so it would chamber in my gun.

My Lee seaters have been better then other more expensive dies. Better! not "just as good". Not saying there doesn't exist a better die but I use a Lee seater in 9mm because it's the best I have tried.
I am not trying to badmouth the Lee dies at all. They work great for 10mm and 5.7, thats why I bought them in 9mm. I was figuring it was something I was messing up.

Its possible the crimper is contacting the case mouth before the bullet is seated. Try backing it out or seating in a separate step.
I think this is my problem. So to adjust this, I would just back the seating die out some and adjust the seater plug down?

oneofthose
09-02-2010, 11:29
The press is aligned. I load 5.7 and 10mm on it with no problems. I am using the Lee 3pc carbide set. I assume that the seating die also crimps a bit.


They are plated bullets.


I thought that too so I tightened up the expander plug to give it more of a flare.

I did adjust the seating die to set the bullet in the casing further so it would chamber in my gun.


I am not trying to badmouth the Lee dies at all. They work great for 10mm and 5.7, thats why I bought them in 9mm. I was figuring it was something I was messing up.


I think this is my problem. So to adjust this, I would just back the seating die out some and adjust the seater plug down?

That's what I would try. Good luck. Let us know what you find.

GioaJack
09-02-2010, 11:44
Not enough bell. You're stripping the jacket/coating right off the bullet. Bell is very tricky, too much bad, not enough, as you've seen...bad. Also make sure you are setting the bullet as close to vertical as possible on the casing when you press it in.

You mentioned you set the press up to spec, but you are loading your bullets on your press for your gun. Whats real in the moment and what some guy at a desk typing a manual for a press he's probably never even used, heck there's a chance he's never even fired a handgun, is a very different thing. Trust yourself. Look at the bullets! Throw the manual away.


I assume your statements were an attempt at being facetious... if not perhaps a few decades of experience are in order before offering advice.


Jack

albyihat
09-02-2010, 11:55
jon i would work through the seat/crimp setup if you are feeling that the bell is enough. as was said above if you have enough bell then you most likely are crimping when the bullet is still being seated.

whatsupglock
09-02-2010, 12:00
I assume your statements were an attempt at being facetious... if not perhaps a few decades of experience are in order before offering advice.


Jack

You would be correct sir! He's learning. He'll figure it out, but I'm sure he'll strip a few more bullets, crush a few more casings and smash a few more primers before he really gets a feel for it.

Best advice, in all seriousness, if problems continue just give the manufacturer a call and ask them for help.

robin303
09-02-2010, 12:09
Same thing happened to me with Berry's bullets and solved the problem with this. The good thing I noticed is you only have to do it once.
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=492986
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=364181

Colorado4Wheel
09-02-2010, 12:21
If you flare the case properly the part you camfer isn't even touching the bullet. You don't need to go to all that trouble if you just flare the case properly.

unclebob
09-02-2010, 16:37
Once you get your bell on the mouth of the case straightened out.
Unscrew your bullet seat and crimp die a couple of turns, so that it no longer removes the bell on the case. Now run your steam down with a round in the die and set your COL too want your round too be at. Once you get the length of the round you want. Back the stem back out so that it well not make contact with the round. Now run the die down until you remove the bell on the case. Both of these operations well take a couple of tries until you get it right. Once you get the crimp where you want it. Lock down the die. Then with the round in the die run your stem back down until it makes contact with the bullet.
Once you do these two things done your problem should go away.

srt-4_jon
09-03-2010, 10:26
Well it ended up being a mix of the 2 problems listed. I flared it more and it still happened a few more times. So then I adjusted the seating/crimp die and everything works great. With the other calibers I reload, I followed Lee's instructions and didnt have to mess with it at all. Now I know if it ever happens again. Thanks everyone.

dudel
09-03-2010, 18:08
A couple of thoughts.

1) there's not enough flare. The instructions are a guide because they don't know what press you're going to be using it on, nor do they know your case length. A caliper will tell you if you've got enough flare. I flare until the projectile can just barely sit in the case without tipping.

2) Get a micrometer/caliper from C4W, and measure your projectiles. They could be a bit large (wouldn't be the first time it's happened).

3) If you've loaded some lead previously (or got the dies used from someone who loaded lead), you might try cleaning the die. Lead shavings and lube can gum up the seating die on floating seaters. That's why Dillon and Hornady have quick release features on their seating dies.

4) Are you seating/crimping in one step? It could be that you have the die set to apply final crimp before the projectile is fully seated. An easy mistake to make. One reason I prefer to seat and crimp in two separate steps. One die does the seating without trying to apply the crimp, the second die crimps without trying to push the projectile deeper at the same time. Just a thought based on your pics. Having a two step process also lets you change projectile profile without having to mess with the crimp setting.

BTW, a LFCCD will iron those wrinkles right out. <G>

Just some ideas to pursue.
HTH

HAMMERHEAD
09-03-2010, 19:09
I'm going to go against the grain a little and say that mis-alignment is the major problem.

In 9mm and .38 Super I've found I can skip the expander die completely and seat a plated or jacketed bullet with a seating die with a good cone shape seating stem. The half dome shape of typical cheap 9mm dies just doesn't straighten out the bullet prior to seating.

With my Lee seater, I had the same trouble as the OP, you could even see the top of the seater stem tilt in the die body as it made contact with the bullet. Not good.

I bought a Redding competition seating die and all my troubles with plated bullets went away. It has a very smooth cone shape area that contacts the bullet, and no slop in the die.
I'm not advocating skipping the expander die for everybody, once in a while I'll skin a plated bullet when the case mouth has a sharp ding in it, but you only need to just touch the case mouth with the expander to ensure the dings get ironed out with a good seating die.

They're expensive, but your brass will last longer from not expanding the mouth so much, you'll get greater case neck tension and resistance to bullet set back, and you only need to graze the case mouth with the taper crimp die when you're done.