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Orange Crush
09-01-2010, 22:25
I just purchased a mossberg 500, not really a big shotgun guy but i knew i wanted one. Now i would like to learn about the ammunition. I bought 5 rounds of 00 buck and 5 slug rounds, just because my dad has always said, what good is an empty gun. What would be a great home defense round, as of right now, i am tempted to purchase 000 buck.

MrMurphy
09-02-2010, 07:36
When I used a shotgun, I used 00 buck, reduced recoil (Hornady TAP or Remington, but other brands work well too).

Aim carefully, any load you use will overpenetrate.

B Coyote
09-02-2010, 07:50
Low Recoil #4 Buck is my favorite for inside the apartment....but since it's hard to find, I'd go with Low Recoil 00 Buck. Winchester, Remington, Federal, Hornady...all excellent.

bc

Glockster17
09-02-2010, 10:33
I went with 00 Buck, reduced recoil 8 pellet. Most 12ga 00 buck is 9 pelllet and the 8 pellet is 'advertised' to be a little more consistant in its pattern. I just remember reading a quote by someone (his name escapes me now) saying inside a house a "...12ga is hell on wheels." --Rob

crazyasian1
09-02-2010, 10:45
That depends, are you in danger of home invasion by bears?

But in all seriousness, I think you'll find that 00 buck will suit your purpose jsut fine.

Oh yeah, use the search button, this has been covered countless times.

David Armstrong
09-02-2010, 11:10
Another vote for the low recoil OO buck. By a five-pack of different brands and find out which patterns best for your gun.

aippi
09-02-2010, 16:59
If running a conventional stock then low recoil for sure.

Just want add this. As someone who is in this business I know that once upon a day if you simply added the word "Magnum" to something it sold, and often for more money. For example, the 870 Express has always been built on a 3" receiver but the word was not used. They add the word magnum and sales went up. Then companies realized that adding words like, Police, Law Enforcement and tacical not only increased sales but allowed them to charge more. The new key word is "Home Defense" because there has been a marked increase in the sale of guns and ammo for this use.

Be suspicous of these key words. They are most often just marketing words and the item has zero benifit over another item that is used for the same thing. With that said, regular ass buck shot works fine and so would standard slugs like Remington slugger or any of the major brands. Low recoil even better for your use with your standard conventional type stock. Don't fall into the marketing. You then have more money for more trigger time and that is more important then all the other mess.

G23c
09-02-2010, 17:22
i like the winchester low recoil 00 buck.

Aceman
09-02-2010, 19:15
Make that two votes for Win-lite 00 buck. No reason for more umph indoors.

And unless you need to say shoot through the refridgerator to get the BG, no reason for slugs indoors either.

Shoot a few reduce recoil, then some regulalr 2 3/4, and decide for yourself if it matters at 15 feet. I practice with regular, but load low recoil

byf43
09-02-2010, 19:34
I've tried just about every 00B to #4B and they will all do the job at HD distances.

What matters is -
How does it pattern in YOUR scattergun?
How well can YOU tolerate the recoil?
How deep are YOUR pockets?
Are YOU prepared for the aftermath?

Remington "Express" 00B and Federal 00B with 'Flite Control Wad' (reduced recoil) both shoot exceptionally well from my 870s.

MacG22
09-08-2010, 10:43
When I used a shotgun, I used 00 buck, reduced recoil (Hornady TAP or Remington, but other brands work well too).

Aim carefully, any load you use will overpenetrate.

According to the Box of Truth this is not entirely true. It does penetrate, for sure. But less so than standard 9mm, .40, and .45 rounds.

MrMurphy
09-08-2010, 12:31
Box o Truth is just a box. I know what i've seen from REAL shootings.

MacG22
09-08-2010, 12:43
Box o Truth is just a box. I know what i've seen from REAL shootings.

Fair enough. And controlled experimentation doesn't equal final and complete truth.

But I still find great value in controlled experimentation. It's not subject to prior conclusions, biases, or acquired learning. And for that it carries great value.

David Armstrong
09-09-2010, 10:09
Box o Truth is just a box. I know what i've seen from REAL shootings.
Not to comment on the Box issue, but I usually try to remind folks the basic problem with individual experience is that it is so limited, thus very easy to get skewed one way or another. As an example, my experience with real shootings early on showed that the .45 ACP had a near zero effect on stopping BGs while 9mm ball worked 100% of the time.

MD357
09-09-2010, 12:33
Fair enough. And controlled experimentation doesn't equal final and complete truth.

But I still find great value in controlled experimentation. It's not subject to prior conclusions, biases, or acquired learning. And for that it carries great value.

That's good posting, the plural of anecdote is not fact for this very reason. Although not absolute, controlled experiments can at least give reference and primer for possible outcomes.

WoodenPlank
09-09-2010, 18:03
Another vote for low recoil 00. My 590 is loaded with the Remington LE load (8 pellet, low recoil, buffered), and it patterns VERY well.

Aceman
09-09-2010, 18:06
Here we go again. I'm calling people out in the name of giving the new guy the right information. If you have a complaint, go sit in the corner, curl up in the fetal position and cry like a little girl. I really don't care. Giving new people practical and correct information and not mis-informing them is more important to me. This is buckshot, not guitar strings.

When I used a shotgun, I used 00 buck, reduced recoil (Hornady TAP or Remington, but other brands work well too).

Aim carefully, any load you use will overpenetrate.

Above, somebody who knows what they are talking about. Refreshing. Clear, to the point, and practically useful. Technically - NOT EVERY load will overpenetrate - but solid practical advice. And from a 12g, with the exception of breech and bean bag, sure. Still, treat all loads like that and you'll be just fine forever.


According to the Box of Truth this is not entirely true. It does penetrate, for sure. But less so than standard 9mm, .40, and .45 rounds.

And here comes someone with the typical dumbass comment. So based on what you SEEM to be saying, 12g buck is a far better round than 9mm, .40, or .45. You should have to pass a test to look at box-o-truth because so many idiots make misleading comments like the one above. The REAL message from BOT is not whether the round gos through 8, 12, or 16 sheets. It is that they ALL go through far more than even two.

So, Mac, you are telling the noob something that will make him feel it's ok to go all full auto with 12g because it is less dangerous than 9 etc....When you should be telling him THEY ARE ALL EFFING DANGEROUS INDOORS!. 9mm, .40, .45, 12g ALL will go through multiple interior walls. Period. The end. Dangerous. Not safe and dangerous. Quiz: Which is more deadly Guaranteed deadly, absolutely deadly, or 100% deadly. Answer - NONE. They ARE ALL DEADLY. 78% dead is dead.

Murphy - good job. Not that you need told. Mac - if I am wrong apologies. Perhaps you just were typing faster than you think. If not, STF up and read MrMurphy's post until you understand it and stay off of BOT until you can interpret the results correctly.

Aceman
09-09-2010, 18:16
Oh - and for the record - think of a slug like an RPG. would you use that indoors? Probably not. Could you? Yes - and I'm sure there are situations where you would use it. But not many. I always like to think of "What if I need to shoot a hole in the refrigerator?"

brigade101
09-09-2010, 18:37
#1 Buck ! Better at distances,better patterning in some guns, less recoil than 00, doesn't over penetrate people as much as 00 does up real close either.A lot of PDs have started using #1 for those reasons.

In my M1 Super 90 I can only describe it as "pleasant" recoil :]

Big Bad Jon
09-09-2010, 19:16
What about the PDX1 round. It has the best of both worlds. Three 00 balls and a slug behind it. Just make sure the neighbors are not too close.

Aceman
09-09-2010, 19:29
What about the PDX1 round. It has the best of both worlds. Three 00 balls and a slug behind it. Just make sure the neighbors are not too close.

gimmick

MrMurphy
09-10-2010, 08:06
David, i agree, i've seen a guy who was hit twice at muzzle contact distance with a .40 JHP in the boiler room get back up and keep fighting the guy who shot him and two others, and another dude hit in the same place with a couple 9mm FMJ drop in his tracks, crawl off and die. Go figure......pistol rounds all generally suck.


But people saying "well we shot this simulated housing material in a box" isn't the same thing as seeing someone shot in a house with a shotgun. A load definitely CAN go a long way.

MacG22
09-10-2010, 13:39
Here we go again. I'm calling people out in the name of giving the new guy the right information. If you have a complaint, go sit in the corner, curl up in the fetal position and cry like a little girl. I really don't care. Giving new people practical and correct information and not mis-informing them is more important to me. This is buckshot, not guitar strings.



Above, somebody who knows what they are talking about. Refreshing. Clear, to the point, and practically useful. Technically - NOT EVERY load will overpenetrate - but solid practical advice. And from a 12g, with the exception of breech and bean bag, sure. Still, treat all loads like that and you'll be just fine forever.




And here comes someone with the typical dumbass comment. So based on what you SEEM to be saying, 12g buck is a far better round than 9mm, .40, or .45. You should have to pass a test to look at box-o-truth because so many idiots make misleading comments like the one above. The REAL message from BOT is not whether the round gos through 8, 12, or 16 sheets. It is that they ALL go through far more than even two.

So, Mac, you are telling the noob something that will make him feel it's ok to go all full auto with 12g because it is less dangerous than 9 etc....When you should be telling him THEY ARE ALL EFFING DANGEROUS INDOORS!. 9mm, .40, .45, 12g ALL will go through multiple interior walls. Period. The end. Dangerous. Not safe and dangerous. Quiz: Which is more deadly Guaranteed deadly, absolutely deadly, or 100% deadly. Answer - NONE. They ARE ALL DEADLY. 78% dead is dead.

Murphy - good job. Not that you need told. Mac - if I am wrong apologies. Perhaps you just were typing faster than you think. If not, STF up and read MrMurphy's post until you understand it and stay off of BOT until you can interpret the results correctly.

First of all, your post was downright comical. Going ad hominem simply because you don't agree with something speaks to YOUR intelligence and character, not mine.

And second, I very much said what I meant. That when it comes to penetrating common housing materials, shotguns do not, on average, penetrate more than handgun rounds.

There are several reasons for this, and the most compelling of them being physics. It takes more energy to propel shotgun rounds through the wall materials over time and distance and they have more energy transferred with every board. So the first two boards will be much more damaged than with standard hand gun rounds. But after 5 or 6 boards they've transferred quite a bit of energy due to their inefficiencies and ceases to penetrate. Handgun rounds in sheetrock tend to fill the hollow point and behave more like a piece of ball ammo (not exclusively, but in general). This makes them more efficient and they do not shed as much energy with each board and can penetrate more deeply.

Take a .223, for example, which is a VERY efficient design, doesn't shed much energy, and is a known heavy penetrator.

I never suggested that a person firing through a single sheetrock wall should consider a shotgun safe. The point is that they are just as capable of killing someone in that scenario as they would be with a 9mm, .40, or .45. All of them will penetrate and have plenty of energy left.

And indeed, through only a sheet or two of sheetrock the shotgun may have as much, equal, or even more power than the other rounds have. But if you're talking about 5-7 sheets (that's two and a half to 3 and a half walls) that the buck shot has transferred much of it's energy and could not keep penetrating while the handgun rounds continued on with energy to spare.

And this isn't just "box of truth". It's just a well received site that many are familiar with. I've done many such tests on my own with multiple types of rounds and have found that in many circumstances buck shot will slow down more quickly than other rounds, including sand and water among other things. It transfers more energy more quickly than the other designs do.

This also accounts for it's greater damage in human tissue. Unlike a 9mm ball round that may pass efficiently through tissue (and keep going out the other side) and not cause much other damage than the wound channel itself, buck shot transmits ENORMOUS energy on initial impact with human tissue cause much larger wounds and greater damage. This same factor contributes to the reasons that buck likely doesn't penetrate to the same extent as a .223 does, as an example.


But don't Just take my word for it, see for yourself:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm

"Frankly, I was surprised that the shotgun did not penetrate more than it did. I had been led to believe that they penetrated more than a .223 rifle or a 9mm or .45 ACP. Such was not the case." Quoted from writeup.

MacG22
09-10-2010, 13:46
But people saying "well we shot this simulated housing material in a box" isn't the same thing as seeing someone shot in a house with a shotgun. A load definitely CAN go a long way.

Sure, just as other types of rounds can. No one said that buck DOESN'T penetrate, only that in relation to more efficient designs that it's not a given it goes further, and often will not (if the hollow point channel is obstructed or if we're considering ball ammo).

And as I described above, do not be fooled with the size of the wound ("seeing someone shot in a house") with the idea of ancillary penetration. The buck with do much more damage to the first few things it hits than a .40sw round will. But again, as it more quickly and less efficiently transfers it's energy it will also slow down more quickly.

That's the concept behind hollow point ammunition... the petals peel back creating an object that slows down more quickly and takes up more space, thus transferring more energy into the wound instead of using that energy to keep flying through and out the other side.

MTPD
09-10-2010, 14:32
In situations where you are concerned about over penetration of walls, etc. = use #4 Buck.

In all other situations use 000B, 00B, & slugs.

Jeff82
09-10-2010, 14:48
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm

Jeff82
09-10-2010, 14:52
Take a .223, for example, which is a VERY efficient design, doesn't shed much energy, and is a known heavy penetrator.



BS. Not at across-the-room distances:

http://www.olyarms.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=14&Itemid=26

MacG22
09-10-2010, 14:57
BS. Not at across-the-room distances:

http://www.olyarms.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=14&Itemid=26

I wasn't saying this in the context of the .223 in human tissue. The .223 and the 7.62 have ALWAYS performed very well in terms of tissue damage but have also been very efficient travelers. A 7.62 can be a notorious ancillary penetrator but also does considerable energy transfer in human tissue.

My comment was more directed at construction materials, not as commentary for the strength of the round in defense. I like the .223 round.

carguy2244
09-11-2010, 13:17
Orange,
Back to your question, 00 buckshot will do well. Reduced recoil will be less painful, so you'll likely train more, thus improve your skill sets. Reduced recoil also will get back on target quicker. The trade off is slightly less velocity. You decide. Slugs for HD seem like a bad decision.
Don't be lulled into a sense of false security, like thinking a shotgun needs to be pointed in the general direction - if you intend on stopping a BG, you need to hit them COM or the head, and you may need to hit them repeatedly. Also, pump shotguns are not fool proof. I've seen more than a few short stroked, which will cause a delay that can prove fatal.
Get a case of buckshot and get to the range.

Frog1
09-11-2010, 13:39
Number 6 field load is about the best home defense load there is. Cheap too.