Golden Sabers in Compact M1911 .45 [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Frizzen
09-04-2010, 12:55
I purchased a box of 25 230 gr. Remington Golden Sabers in .45ACP this A.M. and am wondering if anyone here can give information on their performance and velocity out of a compact 3 in. M1911.

Are they a good round in the 3 in. 45?

I did a search and came up with info on other Manufacturers .45 ammo only.

jaklcrow
09-04-2010, 12:59
I purchased a box of 25 Remington Golden Sabers in .45ACP this A.M. and am wondering if anyone here can give information on their performance and velocity out of a compact 3 in. M1911.

Are they a good round in the 3 in. 45?

I did a search and came up with info on other Manufacturers ammo only.

really u just need to run quite a few boxes through it and see how it works for your gun. Certain companies 1911s will generally work better with diff brands but it is really a gun to gun issue. I personally carry a Kimber pro carry II, which from all the research i did, after i stocked up on my JHPs, hates Speer Gold Dots. But, my particular gun loves them, not a single jam.

So you may find some answers here about what "generally" works and doesnt, but you need to test your 1911 on your own.

fredj338
09-04-2010, 13:16
From my OM, RGSB right on 800fps. The non bonded @ 775fps, they still show good expansion in wetpack @ that vel. The bonded expands less, penetrates a bit deeper.

BOGE
09-04-2010, 14:03
From my OM, RGSB right on 800fps. The non bonded @ 775fps, they still show good expansion in wetpack @ that vel. The bonded expands less, penetrates a bit deeper.

FWIW, I would never shoot a 230 gr. HP in a short barrelled .45 ACP. I would use a hot 200 gr. +p like the Gold Dot. I know the ´´floor´´ for Fed. HST´s but when you throw in thick clothing & short barrels you´re asking for toruble.

fredj338
09-04-2010, 14:14
FWIW, I would never shoot a 230 gr. HP in a short barrelled .45 ACP. I would use a hot 200 gr. +p like the Gold Dot. I know the ´´floor´´ for Fed. HST´s but when you throw in thick clothing & short barrels you´re asking for toruble.

I don;t like them either, 775fps is getting pretty slow, but I do test them just FMI. I prefer non +P, 185gr or 200gr loads in short bbls. The 185grRGS makes 950fps in my OM, the 200grXTP, just under 900fps. Recoil is just not there & followup shots are quick. Both pentrate deep.

Frizzen
09-04-2010, 18:28
Well, I took FredJ338’s suggestion to heart and went back out and purchased Remington 185 gr. Golden Sabers (non +p). I could have gone to another brand but, only GS’s and Ball ammo were available in .45.

My manual specifically states to not use +p in the firearm. This is the first compact, 3 inch barrel, M1911 I have owned.

I’ll need to get some range time in for reliability. Both the 230 gr. and 185 gr. GS’s run perfectly when hand cycled.

GunFighter45ACP
09-04-2010, 18:44
I've always had great results w/Golden Sabers out of all my 1911s. When it comes to shorter barrelled 1911s, I'm more interested in feeding reliability & accuracy then penetration/expansion. Not that penetration/expansion aren't important, especially in my 3" 1911s, but I'd rather err on the side of reliability & accuracy. Hornady another good choice, too.

BOGE
09-04-2010, 21:53
Well, I took FredJ338’s suggestion to heart and went back out and purchased Remington 185 gr. Golden Sabers (non +p). I could have gone to another brand but, only GS’s and Ball ammo were available in .45...


Good thing you didn`t buy Rem. 185 gr. +p as they`re hotter than a ``hunerd dollar`` whore!! IMO they are the hottest .45 ACP load by the Big Boys and have recoil & report just like the Corbin +p per my experiences.


Fred, FWIW a woman engineer at Federal told me that the ``floor¨``for .45 HST is 725 fps.

RedsoxFan4Lyfe
09-05-2010, 07:33
I use Remington GS in my Colt Officers model, which I believe has a 3.5" barrel. Most of the time I just use quality 230gr. ball ammo though. Its cheap enough to practice with and it has worked for nearly 100 years as well.

I know HP ammo has advantages and is better, but that is assuming it opens up reliably and out of a shorter barrel it may not. Even so I know where the ball ammo is hitting in my gun, and I can afford a lot more of it.

There is nothing wrong with .45acp ball ammo for SD use IMO. In the rare even we need to use our carry guns then I have no doubts about ball ammo doing its job if I can do mine. I hope the day never comes.

CanyonMan
09-05-2010, 08:35
I use Remington GS in my Colt Officers model, which I believe has a 3.5" barrel. Most of the time I just use quality 230gr. ball ammo though. Its cheap enough to practice with and it has worked for nearly 100 years as well. I know HP ammo has advantages and is better, but that is assuming it opens up reliably and out of a shorter barrel it may not. Even so I know where the ball ammo is hitting in my gun, and I can afford a lot more of it.

There is nothing wrong with .45acp ball ammo for SD use IMO. In the rare even we need to use our carry guns then I have no doubts about ball ammo doing its job if I can do mine. I hope the day never comes.



Everyone here knows me, and knows that I am in a minority of folks on CC that loves and carries 230gr ball in my 45's, especially the shorter barrel ones.

Simply, as you have stated, "it has worked for over a century." Plus, I'll add, it gets where it's going, and I'll tell you, "it does work effectively." I've never trusted most JHP's in this caliber (45acp) so that is why I stay with ball ammo "in 45acp's." The only exception to that ( 'for me,' ) is the 230gr PDX1, and the 230gr XTP. But 98/99% of the time you'll find my M1911 mags, or G30/G36 mags full of 230gr ball.

Nice to meet ya RedsoxFan4Lyfe, at least I am not all alone here.. HaHa. ;)


Good shooting



CanyonMan

cowboy1964
09-05-2010, 13:04
There is nothing wrong with .45acp ball ammo for SD use.

45 ball is better than nothing but to say there is nothing wrong with it implies it is as good as JHPs and it's not. I won't even get into overpenetration issues as I'm sick of beating that horse.

:deadhorse:

fredj338
09-05-2010, 13:10
Good thing you didn`t buy Rem. 185 gr. +p as they`re hotter than a ``hunerd dollar`` whore!! IMO they are the hottest .45 ACP load by the Big Boys and have recoil & report just like the Corbin +p per my experiences.


Fred, FWIW a woman engineer at Federal told me that the ``floor¨``for .45 HST is 725 fps.

I agree on both accounts. The issue w/ say a 230grJHP, like the HST @ less than 750fps, is penetration. Not enough momentum to push the expanded bullet. At that point, I would rather have a 230grXTP that only deforms a bit @ that vel. level.
Yes, the reason I do NOT like the 185gr+P RGS, it makes 1100fps+, runs fine in a full size steel frame though, but man, a handfull in a ltwt, small frame gun.

fastbolt
09-05-2010, 15:26
I sometimes think that some folks might over-think this sort of thing ...

You just can't predict what a particular bullet is going to do in any given target medium ... or have any control over how that particular bullet may have been manufactured (cutting tool sharpness, jacketing/plating, nose cavity formation, etc).

Here's a couple of previous generation 230gr T-Series loads, standard and +P, fired from a 3 1/4" barrel into a gel block covered by 4 layers of denim (standard Winchester field ballistic workshop).

The standard pressure round did 802fps/13"/.76"

The +P round did 839fps/12"/.77"

Care to guess which one is which? Does it matter?

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y73/fastbolt/CS45T-seriestopview.jpg

Then we fired the same loads from a 4 1/4" Commander.

The standard pressure round did 846fps/14"/.79"

The +P round did 901fps/11.5"/.77"

The jacket petals on the standard pressure round didn't open and fold over all the way on one side, but it still went 14" and the Winchester folks averaged the measurements at .79" expansion.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y73/fastbolt/Commanderangled.jpg

Now, that was with the previous version loads. The newest ones have been revised and I'm told the jacket thickness has been changed to allow for some different expansion characteristics. I haven't had the chance to see any testing in person, yet. Their LE catalog displays it. http://www.winchester.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/pdf/catalog/2008LawEnforcementCatalog.pdf

Personally, I like to use the more modern hollowpoint bullets which the manufacturers have designed to perform well within a wider velocity window. Why not? They realize, after all, that their LE/Gov customers are likely to use shorter barreled guns for both plainclothes and off-duty use. The idea of the "short barreled" loads has apparently been catching on in recent years. Look at the way Speer has developed a separate product line for the concept.

I have a decent supply of the the standard and +P T-series .45 230gr loads, the Remington Golden Sabre (non-bonded) 230gr loads and even some Speer Gold Dot 230gr loads for my various .45 pistols. I use the same loads in all of my .45's, which range in barrel length from 3 1/4", 3 1/2", 3 3/4, 4 1/4", 4 1/2" to 5". I imagine I'll be receiving some of the newest standard pressure T-Series loads at some point within the next several months (since I still help out as an instructor and armorer at my former agency).

I'd be perfectly content to use either the Speer GD or even the Federal HST rounds if that's what was being issued, though. One or another of the more modern loads is fine for my needs.

I personally don't care for the +P loads, especially when used in the smaller .45's. The small increase in velocity doesn't seem justified by the increased felt recoil and slide velocities. Small .45's are seemingly often less tolerant of shooter and ammunition issues, anyway, so why risk adding to it in the way of increased slide velocities and increased felt recoil which might affect the shooter's grip technique?

There's also the consideration that some manufacturers of small .45's might not recommend the use of +P loads in their guns. I'd listen to them.

Hollowpoint versus ball?

Well, while ball does offer a nose/feeding profile and overall length which might lend itself to better feeding in some guns (and don't forget the magazines), it does lack the potential for expansion (although maybe not deformation in some conditions) and the potential cutting effect that might be found with hollowpoints. Cutting (nose cavity edge/jacket) versus deflection (rounded nose) of vital structures, tissues & organs? Dunno. Can't pretend to predict. Sometimes I wonder why the same folks who espouse the less than 2.5mm difference between 9mm & .45 ball rounds don't espouse the potential advantages of cutting/tearing by folded jacket and/or lead edges. Not my concern, though.

If the better designed modern hollowpoints didn't offer any better potential wounding effect than ball, we probably wouldn't be seeing the big LE/Gov agencies investing the time and effort to get various balances of penetration and expansion out of the hollowpoint ammunition used in their .45's. That whole 'any slight advantage' thing.

There's also the potential concern for perforations of the intended target (also called over-penetrations) with ball loads. Yes, misses are just as much of a concern. I can think of a shooting where one of the favored LE .45 loads was used and there were 3 misses and 3 perforations of the attacker. Good luck trying to predict what can happen.

Bottom line? Right now my .45's of various barrel lengths are all loaded with the standard pressure Rem 230gr GS, because that's what was closest at hand when I was loading them. I suppose I could have reached farther for the T-Series boxes, but the GS loads don't cause me to lose sleep.

I'm more concerned about how they actually feed & function in my guns, how well I maintain my guns and how well I maintain my skills ...

I'm not an expert and can't recommend anything.

Just my thoughts.

fredj338
09-05-2010, 16:50
I'm more concerned about how they actually feed & function in my guns, how well I maintain my guns and how well I maintain my skills ...
I'm not an expert and can't recommend anything.
Just my thoughts.
Good thoughts too. I have found the RGS to be very user friendly, where I hear of complaints in some guns w/ HST or SGDSB. As always, reliability trumps terminalo performance anyday.