357 sig or 9mm for CCW [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Glock 302
09-06-2010, 14:12
If you had a G26 and a G33 which would use as your CCW? Which would you feel better about? Both loads are without +p and cost of ammunition does not matter.

mrsurfboard
09-06-2010, 14:17
I would feel fine with either one, but given a choice, I would pick the 9mm due to better controllability in a small sub gun. Plus it's cheaper to shoot and find ammo for.

S9Man
09-06-2010, 14:32
357 SIG is more powerfull. Enough said. I would rather have a 10mm if given that option. I have a 20SF and have my eye on a 29 for a CCW.

glocknbruce
09-06-2010, 14:37
9mm.....127 +p+.....G26.....

trlcavscout
09-06-2010, 14:43
Apples to apples the 357 SIG will out perform the 9mm. Plus you can go hotter in the 357 then 9mm. I would go 357. Plus depending on who you talk to the 357 is not bad to shoot, easier then the 40 apples to apples ammo to ammo.

israel 54
09-06-2010, 14:43
My first Glock was a 32c, I love the .357sig rd. I have never been abig fan of the 9mm even though I have several. I guess that the 9mm is a little more controllable for a beginner, but if you have enough range and practice time this is no longer an issue. Both have very potent ammunition, they are the same size the fully loaded weight is within an ounce or two. One extra round isn't going to matter if your shot placement is on point. Shoot both not just a few times but a considerable amount and see what your more comfortable with. My vote is the G33. don't for get with a 33 their is the opportunity to use conversion barrels.

israel 54
09-06-2010, 15:06
SAAMI Scale 9mm luger 35,000 psi/ 9mm NATO 36,500 psi/ +P 38,500 psi- +10% / +P+ no SAAMI Spec. Approx. 42,000 psi- +17% / .357 Sig 40,000 psi

Kabarred
09-06-2010, 15:13
My next gun is going to be a G33. I think the advantages with the .357 over the 9mm are considerable enough

ssgrock3
09-06-2010, 15:19
my follow up shots are by far faster with a glock 26, when I still had both a g33 and a 26, the 33 went on vacation just for sheer power for on the road needs (god forbid).
So I like both weapons, but only carry a 26 now (don't own the 33 anymore) shoot it often and carry everywhere. A joy to shoot and can keep the whole mag of ammo in the 10 ring.

Bob45acp
09-06-2010, 15:30
My vote is for the .357 sig, that will be my next purchase. The reason is that you can get .40 and 9mm conversion barrels for it. The .40 cal barrel is a direct replacement and I've heard the .40/9mm conversion barrel usually works pretty well. Good enough for practicing. Practice with 9mm or .40 (cheap to reload) and carry .357sig. The Pro Arms podcast folks with Massad Ayoob did a real good show on the .357sig that has me convinced.

96hog
09-06-2010, 15:30
Have a G33 and run Hornady 147gr XTP's thru it .
Reliable & smooth shooting peice .

Ogie
09-06-2010, 15:38
9mm 124 gr. Gold Dot +P at 1230 fps. .357 SIG Gold Dot 125 gr. at 1350 fps. Same diameter bullet, same weight, with the .357 SIG going a little faster. Big deal, the end result will be very similar with a hit in a self defense situation. Of course you will have less muzzle blast, flash, and quicker shot to shot recovery time with the 9mm and 9mm ammo is cheaper to buy. It's a no-brainer to me.

Free Radical
09-06-2010, 15:40
I am a huge fan of .357 SIG chambered handguns. Without moving to a larger, heavier platform it is as bad ass as you can get.

glockoneninerx1
09-06-2010, 15:50
Go shoot both if you can. Pick the one you shoot best. It's really all about shot placement. I'm sure I'll get flamed for that but... it's true. There is nothing wrong with 357 Sig or 10 mm or 45 ACP etc...., they all have their place and do the job well. If I can't shoot the 10 mm as well as a 9 mm, the 10 mm will be useless to me. Buy the one you shoot best, buy lots of ammo, and practice, practice, practice. The T zone in the CPU is your friend. If you want happy ammo, send those shots there. Shot placement stops the threat not the size or power of the ammo. This is only my humble opinion so take it with a grain of salt.

hatidua
09-06-2010, 15:55
I owned the G32 and G19 simultaneously (not subcompact but same size frames in both 9mm & .357). I sold the G32 in under six months.

If I'm going to go up from 9mm, I'm going to .45, not some oddball .357Sig thing.

Haymarket
09-06-2010, 16:19
I much prefer .357. Ballistically, with the hottest rounds in 125 gr it is better than anything else available in a concealable package that holds as many rounds. it is also controllable and fun to shoot, and you can get the .40 barrel to save money at the range. I much prefer it to 9mm for me....

Glock 302
09-06-2010, 16:30
I actually have both of the guns and for the past year I have been carrying the G33. I recently bought a G26 with factory night sights and I LOVE the way it shoots. I just feel that a the 9mm round is a bit underpowered and I was wondering what you guys thought about it.

Gokyo
09-06-2010, 16:36
G29

10mm>357 sig>40 S&W > 9mm >22LR >45 acp

:)

To answer your question. G26 is just fine for CCW. I porbably would use it.

I guess if it was me i would buy a 357 sig and then get a 40S&W barrel and a 9mm barrel from Lone Wolf

atl-g33
09-06-2010, 16:40
g33 is my choice for ccw if i need something small. otherwise its my sig p226 e2 w/ 357 SIG barrel.

cowboy1964
09-06-2010, 16:43
Both achieve the necessary penetration and expansion so either is "good enough". .357 Sig is better at barriers but is that really a factor for you? Personally I can do without the blast and recoil of the .357 in a baby CCW piece.

DowntimeLA
09-06-2010, 16:57
I love the power and accuracy of my .357 sig

sfguard
09-06-2010, 17:01
357sig would be the way to go

M1crazy
09-06-2010, 17:18
I carry a G33 I am not a fan of a 9mm if you want easy ammo availability go with a G27 in .40. and buy the .357sig barrel. I went with a .357 sig because of the better ballistics and the easy change to .40 by buying a barrel.:whistling:
HTH
Barry In MO.

texas 48
09-06-2010, 17:31
IMO Win Ranger LE 9mm+P+ and .357sig have about the same recoil. Give me the flatter shooting better barrier penetration of the .357sig every time. If I need Multiple rounds to the COM to stop the threat because I need less recoil then I will use a .22 Mag and Aim for a CNS or head.

redbaron007
09-06-2010, 18:13
I have the G26 and the G32. I love the 357sig. If you have the option of buying the G33, I would.

However, I love to shot the G26 and carry it in the summer. My G32 gets a lot of attention in the Fall/Winter months.


Good Luck! :supergrin:



:wavey:



red

chad1972
09-06-2010, 18:36
You would want something you can control, under extreme stress, shot placement is the key, shot after shot, in a crowded store if needed. You can put a big fellow down with a 22 let alone a 9mm, 357,.45, with proper shot placement.

ronin.45
09-06-2010, 19:37
If nothing else goes into the decision but the round(no cost, availability, or interchangeability) I think we would all choose the more powerful .357. In reality all of those things do matter, so it's the 9mm for me.

ProMed
09-06-2010, 20:47
I carry my little G33 every day and love it. Spent $98 on a .40 LW barrel for the range since I have several thousand rounds already in that caliber. I've shot just over 300 rounds of the .357 sig and can knock out double and triple taps all day long.

unit1069
09-06-2010, 20:48
I actually have both of the guns and for the past year I have been carrying the G33. I recently bought a G26 with factory night sights and I LOVE the way it shoots. I just feel that a the 9mm round is a bit underpowered and I was wondering what you guys thought about it.

In urban environments I carry either 9mm or .357sig with confidence. In rural settings I always prefer the .357sig. for its greater power, range, accuracy and penetration capabilities.

Great Googly Moogly
09-06-2010, 20:51
I've never owned a 9mm. I love the .357 SIG performance.

Compy222
09-06-2010, 20:52
G33 is my daily carry. my cousin carries a 32 off duty. we love the round.

fantastic stopping power in a small package. .40 conversion barrels are like having 2 guns in one. i find it to kick substantially but not the point a 2nd or 3rd follow-up is more than 3-4 inches away from the first round. i recommend ranger t-series 125gr in .357. if you go 9mm +P+ ranger t-series are the way to go.

http://i596.photobucket.com/albums/tt46/mcompagnoni/Shooting/IMG_0408.jpg

round on the left went through 2.5 gallons of water and 5 inches of earth before looking like that. the round on the right went into a frozen milk jug, shattered the jug and turned the whole thing into snowcone...

seekertol
09-06-2010, 20:57
9mm!!!! Shot placement is what matters, if you put two to the heart and one to the head if needed.

RX7Boricua
09-06-2010, 21:01
The G33 was my first Glock. I don't think I'd ever be able to sell it because of that. When not carrying a full-size 1911, I'd carry the trusty ol' G33. I recently acquired a G36 and have been carrying that every day. You really can't go wrong with .357Sig, especially when you need to shoot through barriers such as windshields or automobile doors. :P Mine stays loaded with 125gr Gold Dots at all times. I really do like the G36 though, it gets carried with 230gr Golden Sabers. Practically the same size/weight as the G33, just as concealable. To answer your original question, I'd feel better armed with a G33 over a G26 any day.

Fulton 722
09-06-2010, 21:38
Another vote for the G33 with 125 gr Gold Dots. An amazingly accurate pistol and very easy to conceal in the summer or winter.

MR.10mm
09-06-2010, 22:14
See if you can rent both at a range and figure out how they feel when you shoot them. In my opinion the round doesnt matter, its all about shot placement! Anyone that believes they are any better off with a .40 etc, over a 9mm is just giving themselves a false sense of security. But thats just my opinion...

Good luck! Either way those are good choices.

matt c
09-06-2010, 23:30
9mm will work just fine...357 has more muzzle flash...will be an added difficulty shooting at night. Placement will be key so carry the round you can perform best with.

glock031
09-07-2010, 00:02
Another vote for 357sig. You never know what barriers you may need to shoot through. I could think of a few scenarios. I think it's better to have the that ability. LE ammo and buffalo bore 357sig use low flash powder so any muzzle flash at low light or night shouldn't pose much of a problem. The SS that protect POTUS use this caliber and so do air marshals. As for what caliber you shoot better can change in time depending on which caliber you train with the most. That's my opinion.

Bapple
09-07-2010, 10:14
My EDC for last 2 years or so. Robar'ed G33, love it :cool:

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn186/Bapple/Robar002.jpg

Mr Wasabi
09-07-2010, 10:47
I've got a PM9 loaded up with HST 147g +P and a G33 loaded up with DoubleTap 125g GDs. I don't feel undergunned with either. I do like the .357SIG though and will usually carry the G33 when I can. It's not as comfy to carry as the PM9 but it's still easily concealable and comfortable. The G33 is also is my nightstand/HD gun (along with my 12ga).

shotgunred
09-07-2010, 11:33
SAAMI Scale 9mm luger 35,000 psi/ 9mm NATO 36,500 psi/ +P 38,500 psi- +10% / +P+ no SAAMI Spec. Approx. 42,000 psi- +17% / .357 Sig 40,000 psi

This is only important if you are loading up to max pressures. Almost no one does.

But with good self defense ammo it doesn't matter either will work. Why limit yourself. carry one one day and the other the next.

GunFighter45ACP
09-07-2010, 12:38
Why? A lighter bullet generally needs more velocity to get the job done. The smaller barrell length of a subcompact can negate this. All things being equal, I'd rather go w/a heavier bullet that can also make a bigger hole.

mak52580
09-07-2010, 12:48
9mm!!!! Shot placement is what matters, if you put two to the heart and one to the head if needed.

Agreed. I just went in on a G26 yesterday over the G27 after substantial thought and analysis. I like the less recoil of the 26 so that I will overall have better shot placement and less to worry about under stress. i think that a 9mm +P or +P+ HP, if the shots are placed will be more than adequate to neutralize any threat.

brausso
09-07-2010, 13:42
My vote is for the .357 sig, that will be my next purchase. The reason is that you can get .40 and 9mm conversion barrels for it. The .40 cal barrel is a direct replacement and I've heard the .40/9mm conversion barrel usually works pretty well. Good enough for practicing. Practice with 9mm or .40 (cheap to reload) and carry .357sig. The Pro Arms podcast folks with Massad Ayoob did a real good show on the .357sig that has me convinced.

^^^^What he said.

You can have the best of both worlds with the G33. I have one in OD green and love it. Since this thread isn't about .45 ACP or 10mm, I'll leave that alone. Others have stated they cannot control the .357 quickly enough for follow up shots. I have never had an issue with this matter, so I feel very confident in the G33.

mak52580
09-07-2010, 13:54
the .40/9mm conversion barrel usually works pretty well. Good enough for practicing.

I was also looking at the G27, thinking that I could switch out to a 9mm barrel but since this is going to be my primary CCW I didn't want the muzzle flip of the 27 in the subcompact and of course, what you mentioned above. For me, this gun needs to work for me EVERY time.

mesteve2
09-07-2010, 14:44
That is what my daughter has for CCW. She is 5;3" and breaks the scale at 115 lbs.
She only shoot s three box of 50 at the range everytime she goes.

She can handle it. :wow:

CynicX
09-07-2010, 15:20
.357 sig for sure...

http://intrencik.com/357sig_files/Handgun_gel_comparison.jpg

This is what only 10% gets you. Note, if you measure the cavities of both the .357sig out performed all of them and thats at 1319 fps.

I've shot 1510 fps via my G32 with reloads. So imagine what 22% does. I've read about 1600 fps though, although I think it would be a little hard to control at that point.

I'm a fan of both, 9mm has great capacity which is really nice. But I'd take the more potent .357sig. Plus its amazing to shoot at longer ranges which I really enjoy. And you can always go with a .40s&w barrel for cheap and use the same mags. I still prefer that over 9mm for HD and CCW....

There are cons though. .357sig is typically more expensive. You can find "Factory Reloads" for 10.95 per box of 50 at Outdoor Marksman (no experience with them). And hot .357sig ammo is a handfull. The 31 isnt too bad although it has the highest muzzle velocity (longest barrel) its heavier, the G33 has is lighter but has a lower muzzle velocity. From my experience the G32 is the hardest to handle with hot ammo. Just like the G23 (for me) is the hardest to handle (compact .40). Regardless higher velocity with similar mass = more felt recoil. If you reload this isnt a problem since you can tailor your ammo to your specs. If not you will prefer shooting reman ammo like Ultramax or light loaded Fiochhi ammo. Self defense ammo feels totally different, just like +p+ 9mm ammo feels different from practice ammo...

glockguerilla
09-07-2010, 15:26
Try both if your situation permits... given the importance a bit of experimentation is in order. Use various rounds and get to the range. The G33 can be a hoot to shoot and can be employed in CCW if willing to practice. IMHO. My next .357 SIG will be G32 or 31...taking it with me to trip in Montana & Wyoming.
G26/19 (gold dot 124+p) rides as back up / CCW. But who knows I may be packing G33 this year too. I like to mix it up ... I do spend a lot of time at the range to stay in sync with my current CCW set up.

Ogie
09-07-2010, 18:22
.357 sig for sure...

http://intrencik.com/357sig_files/Handgun_gel_comparison.jpg

This is what only 10% gets you. Note, if you measure the cavities of both the .357sig out performed all of them and thats at 1319 fps.

Except that the temporary stretch cavity (TSC) is relatively meaningless. It closes right back up after the round passes through. The only way it is relevant is if it passes close to inelastic tissue. People aren't made of jello.

Aeroscoper
09-07-2010, 20:11
The G33 is obviously more powerful, but if it causes flinching due to the recoil than any advantage is negated.

If you can handle it well go with the G33, if new to shooting I'd recommend the 9mm. YMMV.

LASTRESORT20
09-07-2010, 20:14
9mm 147gr +P

Chowser
09-07-2010, 23:09
i carry a 33. have no problems with control or any problems shooting at night. i recently shot one of glock's new 22-rd mags through my 33 on the range in low light at multiple targets while moving. i didn't have any trouble with muzzle flash bothering me. i just put down a deer a few hours ago, it was night, and i had no problems with my vision or my hearing. then again, i just fired one shot, but i had no trouble seeing or hearing immediately after the shot.
(carry the glock 31 on duty)

SanityAssassin
09-07-2010, 23:45
i carry a 33. have no problems with control or any problems shooting at night. i recently shot one of glock's new 22-rd mags through my 33 on the range in low light at multiple targets while moving. i didn't have any trouble with muzzle flash bothering me. i just put down a deer a few hours ago, it was night, and i had no problems with my vision or my hearing. then again, i just fired one shot, but i had no trouble seeing or hearing immediately after the shot.
(carry the glock 31 on duty)

I know indoors would be a lot worse, but no problems with your hearing without ear protection? I've 'heard' that firing a 357 sig indoors will leave you basically deaf for 5 minutes, and ears ringing for 30 minutes. From a reliable source :)
I've no experience with a 9mm, but I can't imagine its nearly as bad.

Chowser
09-07-2010, 23:56
indoors, i had ear protection on. i just meant that everytime i have fired a gun outdoors, i lost hearing for maybe a few seconds, but no problems afterwards.

Wastelander
09-08-2010, 00:12
The G32 or the G33 is going to be my next gun when the Gen4's come out for pretty much all the reasons listed above by my constituents.

John Biltz
09-08-2010, 01:49
If you had a G26 and a G33 which would use as your CCW? Which would you feel better about? Both loads are without +p and cost of ammunition does not matter.

Depends. First, how do "YOU" handle the recoil. Doesn't matter how others handle it, they will not be there when you need to shoot it. Second, do you worry about animal attack? In the country I think I think .357 Sig with a heavier bullet makes a whole lot of sense to carry. Even in the city pit bulls are sometime a problem and I've heard good things about .357 Sig and pit bulls. I've been in areas in cities where I worry more about being attacked by loose pit bulls than I ever do about people and I'm not someone who is afraid of dogs.

stopatrain
09-08-2010, 08:22
.357 sig

MyGunCulture
09-09-2010, 06:48
I do love my .357 Sig... And the awesome effect of velocity on bullet expansion :cool:
204116
204117

bac1023
09-09-2010, 07:01
I carry my G33 at times, but would be fine with a G26 as well.

DocKWL
09-09-2010, 18:32
.357 sig for sure...

http://intrencik.com/357sig_files/Handgun_gel_comparison.jpg

This is what only 10% gets you. Note, if you measure the cavities of both the .357sig out performed all of them and thats at 1319 fps.

I've shot 1510 fps via my G32 with reloads. So imagine what 22% does. I've read about 1600 fps though, although I think it would be a little hard to control at that point.

I'm a fan of both, 9mm has great capacity which is really nice. But I'd take the more potent .357sig. Plus its amazing to shoot at longer ranges which I really enjoy. And you can always go with a .40s&w barrel for cheap and use the same mags. I still prefer that over 9mm for HD and CCW....

There are cons though. .357sig is typically more expensive. You can find "Factory Reloads" for 10.95 per box of 50 at Outdoor Marksman (no experience with them). And hot .357sig ammo is a handfull. The 31 isnt too bad although it has the highest muzzle velocity (longest barrel) its heavier, the G33 has is lighter but has a lower muzzle velocity. From my experience the G32 is the hardest to handle with hot ammo. Just like the G23 (for me) is the hardest to handle (compact .40). Regardless higher velocity with similar mass = more felt recoil. If you reload this isnt a problem since you can tailor your ammo to your specs. If not you will prefer shooting reman ammo like Ultramax or light loaded Fiochhi ammo. Self defense ammo feels totally different, just like +p+ 9mm ammo feels different from practice ammo...

The irony of your post is that picture was produced to depict what little difference there is in the TC of the common service calibers.

How are you measuring the TC size?

unit1069
09-10-2010, 15:19
The G32 or the G33 is going to be my next gun when the Gen4's come out for pretty much all the reasons listed above by my constituents.

I had a tough time picking between the G-32 and G-33. I finally decided on the G-32 because I was concerned that the smaller grip might not provide a good hold with the .357sig power.

If I had known about the GAP floorplate and had the opportunity to hold a Glock sub-compact with the GAP accessory who knows which model I might have chosen. I'm totally pleased with the G-32 but just wanted to pass this thought along to you in case you have the chance to hold a sub-compact with the GAP floorplate.

SanityAssassin
09-10-2010, 15:47
The irony of your post is that picture was produced to depict what little difference there is in the TC of the common service calibers.

How are you measuring the TC size?
from the above image:
http://i865.photobucket.com/albums/ab213/d5pc/9mm-45acp-357sig.png?t=1284159053
red=9mm 124gr
blue=45acp 230gr
green=357sig 125gr

the areas: 45acp is 2.7% smaller than 357sig, 9mm is 40% smaller than 357 sig
But since were are really talking about volume, the differences, at least between the 9mm and 357sig, will be more significant.
now, as to how much the TC matters in real life ...

unit1069
09-11-2010, 06:46
from the above image:
http://i865.photobucket.com/albums/ab213/d5pc/9mm-45acp-357sig.png?t=1284159053
red=9mm 124gr
blue=45acp 230gr
green=357sig 125gr

the areas: 45acp is 2.7% smaller than 357sig, 9mm is 40% smaller than 357 sig
But since were are really talking about volume, the differences, at least between the 9mm and 357sig, will be more significant.
now, as to how much the TC matters in real life ...

Had you compared the 147-grain 9mm figure to .45ACP/.357sig the shortfall in total wound volume would be even greater.

Great Googly Moogly
09-11-2010, 07:20
.45 acp :whistling:

SanityAssassin
09-11-2010, 17:17
Had you compared the 147-grain 9mm figure to .45ACP/.357sig the shortfall in total wound volume would be even greater.

Indeed. The reason I went with the 124gr is that it is nearly the same as the 125gr 357sig, and I think that shows what 138ft/s means (in ballistic gelatin at least).

BlutoBlutarsky
09-11-2010, 18:24
357 SIG every time. Impact is violent 124 XTP gives 3.5 Jugs of wet pack penetration and .535 expansion.http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=906&pictureid=3396

cowboy1964
09-11-2010, 18:31
Had you compared the 147-grain 9mm figure to .45ACP/.357sig the shortfall in total wound volume would be even greater.

As long as you're getting sufficient penetration all those are great.

cowboy1964
09-11-2010, 18:36
http://intrencik.com/357sig_files/Handgun_gel_comparison.jpg


Does anyone know the original source of this picture? What ammo was used, guns, etc?

Federal 9BPLE can achieve 1300 fps with 115 gr. I would love to see a gel picture of that. Also GD 124+P.

M&P Shooter
09-12-2010, 17:59
http://intrencik.com/357sig_files/Handgun_gel_comparison.jpg

This picture shows what a couple different service calibers do against a block of gel with no bones, blood, arteries, organs or central nervous system:dunno:

G20MONEY
09-12-2010, 18:27
9mm 124 gr. Gold Dot +P at 1230 fps. .357 SIG Gold Dot 125 gr. at 1350 fps. Same diameter bullet, same weight, with the .357 SIG going a little faster. Big deal, the end result will be very similar with a hit in a self defense situation. Of course you will have less muzzle blast, flash, and quicker shot to shot recovery time with the 9mm and 9mm ammo is cheaper to buy. It's a no-brainer to me.

Exactly what I was thinking? 9mm shoots a .355 124g bullet at 1200 fps.....and its not good for squirrels,(certainly not SD :rofl:) a 357 sig shoots a .355 bullet one grain heavier at 1350 fps and its the best barrier bustin' self defense round on the planet? wtf?

M&P Shooter
09-12-2010, 18:54
Exactly what I was thinking? 9mm shoots a .355 124g bullet at 1200 fps.....and its not good for squirrels,(certainly not SD :rofl:) a 357 sig shoots a .355 bullet one grain heavier at 1350 fps and its the best barrier bustin' self defense round on the planet? wtf?
Numbers on paper and what happens to a human body are different. I sent a E-Mail to Massad Ayoub who is a member on here last year concerning the departments that switched from 9mm to .357sig and he said they were very happy with the difference in ballistic performance in officer involved shootings and especially how quickly it put down dogs compared to the 9mm.

IndyGunFreak
09-12-2010, 20:33
Only gun I've ever sold and not regretted it for even a nanosecond, is a .357sig.

IGF

PersonOfInterest
09-13-2010, 03:32
Numbers on paper and what happens to a human body are different. I sent a E-Mail to Massad Ayoub who is a member on here last year concerning the departments that switched from 9mm to .357sig and he said they were very happy with the difference in ballistic performance in officer involved shootings and especially how quickly it put down dogs compared to the 9mm.

Ive shot dead one very angry dog that was charging me and i was using a 9mm loaded with a 124gn XTP at 1250fps - dog died very quickly (ive shot them dead with the 357magnum 125gn JHP too) to be honest i couldnt tell the difference - doubt the dog could either. He was over 100lbs and all muscle (part mastiff - part of a big pack of wild dogs that live on big mountain range behind our farm and constantly kill livestock).

Hey i love the 357sig ive shot dead about 60 animals in the last few years with it and it is a great round hard to say if its all that much different to a 9mm +P but in this case (as in the difference between a glock 33 and 26) well fact is the shorter barrel on the 26 wont get you up to those speeds that the 9mm is capable of so i swing more to the 33.
But hey each to his own either will work, range time always beats reading and thinking.

M&P Shooter
09-13-2010, 04:54
Ive shot dead one very angry dog that was charging me and i was using a 9mm loaded with a 124gn XTP at 1250fps - dog died very quickly (ive shot them dead with the 357magnum 125gn JHP too) to be honest i couldnt tell the difference - doubt the dog could either. He was over 100lbs and all muscle (part mastiff - part of a big pack of wild dogs that live on big mountain range behind our farm and constantly kill livestock).

Hey i love the 357sig ive shot dead about 60 animals in the last few years with it and it is a great round hard to say if its all that much different to a 9mm +P but in this case (as in the difference between a glock 33 and 26) well fact is the shorter barrel on the 26 wont get you up to those speeds that the 9mm is capable of so i swing more to the 33.
But hey each to his own either will work, range time always beats reading and thinking.Big difference between 357 magnum and 9mm. When we compare both to shootings larger animals or BG's both service calibers track records speak for themselves.

PersonOfInterest
09-13-2010, 06:44
Big difference between 357 magnum and 9mm. When we compare both to shootings larger animals or BG's both service calibers track records speak for themselves.
My track records speak for themseleves - ive got a scar on my arm where a pretty large dog latched on and the 357magnum sorted that quickly, now in this case (which was seperate) the 9mm did a good job also - fact of the matter was neither animal would have noticed the different between either round.

IndyGunFreak
09-13-2010, 06:47
The G33 is obviously more powerful, but if it causes flinching due to the recoil than any advantage is negated.

If you can handle it well go with the G33, if new to shooting I'd recommend the 9mm. YMMV.

This is some of the best advice in this thread, IMO. Also take into account ammo cost/availability. .357sig wasn't easy to find local *for me*, so you'll be hitting online vendors more often. In that instance, you almost have to buy a case to make shipping worthwhile.

If you're new to shooting, DEFINITELY, a 9mm.

IGF

DocKWL
09-13-2010, 07:05
Had you compared the 147-grain 9mm figure to .45ACP/.357sig the shortfall in total wound volume would be even greater.

The TC does not contribute to the "total wound volume", hence the name "temporary".

In many real-life cases the TC has had no wounding effect whatsoever.

DocKWL
09-13-2010, 07:34
Here are some recent TC numbers:

Bare/4-Layer (Inches)

9mm
124 1.75/1.5
147 2/1.75

AVG 1.75

.357 SIG
124 3.75/NA
147 4.5/NA

AVG 4.125

.40 S&W
155 2.62/2
180 3/2.5

AVG 2.53

.45ACP
200 2/2
230 2.25/2

AVG 2.06

Average all calibers: 2.62

Excluding SIG (I have no 4-Layer data at this time) 2.11

Extapolate what you wish from this data. Just remember:

"The tissue disruption caused by a handgun bullet is limited to two mechanisms. The first, or crush mechanism is the hole the bullet makes passing through the tissue. The second, or stretch mechanism is the temporary cavity formed by the tissues being driven outward in a radial direction away from the path of the bullet. Of the two, the crush mechanism, the result of penetration and permanent cavity, is the only handgun wounding mechanism which damages tissue. To cause significant injuries to a structure within the body using a handgun, the bullet must penetrate the structure. Temporary cavity has no reliable wounding effect in elastic body tissues. Temporary cavitation is nothing more than a stretch of the tissues, generally no larger than 10 times the bullet diameter (in handgun calibers), and elastic tissues sustain little, if any, residual damage."

and...

"Physiologically, no caliber or bullet is certain to incapacitate any individual unless the brain is hit. Psychologically, some individuals can be incapacitated by minor or small caliber wounds. Those individuals who are stimulated by fear, adrenaline, drugs, alcohol, and/or sheer will and survival determination may not be incapacitated even if mortally wounded.
The will to survive and to fight despite horrific damage to the body is commonplace on the battlefield, and on the street. Barring a hit to the brain, the only way to force incapacitation is to cause sufficient blood loss that the subject can no longer function, and that takes time. Even if the heart is instantly destroyed, there is sufficient oxygen in the brain to support full and complete voluntary action for 10-15 seconds.
Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed "shock" of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration. The bullet must pass through the large, blood bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid bleeding. Penetration less than 12 inches is too little, and, in the words of two of the participants in the 1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop, "too little penetration will get you killed." Given desirable and reliable penetration, the only way to increase bullet effectiveness is to increase the severity of the wound by increasing the size of hole made by the bullet. Any bullet which will not penetrate through vital organs from less than optimal angles is not acceptable. Of those that will penetrate, the edge is always with the bigger bullet."

M&P Shooter
09-13-2010, 16:57
My track records speak for themseleves - ive got a scar on my arm where a pretty large dog latched on and the 357magnum sorted that quickly, now in this case (which was seperate) the 9mm did a good job also - fact of the matter was neither animal would have noticed the different between either round.
Like I said 9mm can never be compared to the 357 magnum. I can't believe I'm even having this conversation:dunno:
Check this out, you can load a 357 magnum to 180gr and get it still moving 1400 fps with 783ft lbs do think the best 9mm load out there can come anywhere near that? NO!
http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=20

PersonOfInterest
09-13-2010, 23:49
Like I said 9mm can never be compared to the 357 magnum. I can't believe I'm even having this conversation:dunno:
Check this out, you can load a 357 magnum to 180gr and get it still moving 1400 fps with 783ft lbs do think the best 9mm load out there can come anywhere near that? NO!
http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=20
Ok lets start again

i wasnt comparing the 357magnum to the 9mm - point i was making was the hot 9mm loads (eg 124/125gn JHP moving at 1250 - 1300fps) has a very similair effect to the 357sig or 357magnum using a 125gn JHP (unless youve handloaded the 357magnum to say 1600fps which ive done using the 125gn JHP its not uncommon to see an exit hole on animals that you wont forget)
added to which youve stated that from what Mas says cops are having better luck with the 357sig and dogs - i had similair experiences shooting dogs with the 357magnum and using hot 9mm loads - as in the big cranky attacking dog is stopped.

Once again my response overall to this thread was - using a short barrel and you want good results - youll get them from a 357sig as opposed to the 9mm which you can only do so much with without a 4" barrel - but once youve got one 4" plus you can do almost as good respectivly.

Id still take a 9mm or 357sig/Magnum over a .45 or .40 though due to the fact ive had way too many failures of both of those on living things, not to say there a bad choice but they have let me down more so than .38cal guns.

M&P Shooter
09-14-2010, 05:43
.

Id still take a 9mm or 357sig/Magnum over a .45 or .40 though due to the fact ive had way too many failures of both of those on living things, not to say there a bad choice but they have let me down more so than .38cal guns.
Wow you had more failures to stop with 45acp & .40 then 38spcl on living things. Never heard that one before and on that note must end this conversation with you rather then offend you:supergrin:

PersonOfInterest
09-14-2010, 06:29
Wow you had more failures to stop with 45acp & .40 then 38spcl on living things. Never heard that one before and on that note must end this conversation with you rather then offend you:supergrin:
38spcl? where exactly did i mention that? never have i mentioned ever killing anything with a .38 special before on here - ever. Simple fact is ive never even killed anything with one in my whole life, 357mag accounts for about 200 or more kills 9mm the same, .40 about 20-30 animals and the .45acp 6 in total, the 357sig close to 60.
You should read what i said more carefully - i said .38cal guns which can be interpreted as - 9mm, 357sig, 38super, 357magnum, 9x25dillion, 357maxium, 38 special, 38s&w even .380 classifies as '.38cal'
Simple fact for me has been the 9mm and 357mag got the job done better than the .45 and .40 sorry if you dont like it - i know the truth can hurt but youll live. :wavey:

M&P Shooter
09-14-2010, 08:56
Simple fact for me has been the 9mm and 357mag got the job done better than the .45 and .40 sorry if you dont like it - i know the truth can hurt but youll live. :wavey:
I know the 357 magnum does a better job then the 45acp & .40cal but as far as the 9mm truth hurts theory I'll stick with the countless LE encounters that are documented to base my feelings towards the 9mm on humans and my own experience against 4 legged things:wavey:

P.S. I am liking the 357sig over 9mm/.40/45acp for animal hunting but would prefer a 10mm or 357 magnum myself when talking about taking game with a service caliber. I grew up in Pike county, PA and have hunted with my father and brother for many years in the mountains of PA with everything from 22lr to 44magnum in handguns and can tell you the 9mm is not to good for taking decent size game.

bowtie454
09-14-2010, 09:14
Holy crap. May as well ask "Ford or Chevy?". BTW, I carry a .357 Sig, although I would like a compact 9mm as a BUG.

M&P Shooter
09-14-2010, 09:26
Holy crap. May as well ask "Ford or Chevy?". BTW, I carry a .357 Sig, although I would like a compact 9mm as a BUG.
From your screen name I see you would agree with me and say Chevy:supergrin:

Glockbuster
09-14-2010, 09:28
A Kahr PM9094 (in 9 mm of course) would be my weapon of choice for CCW. When dealing with this small a weapon, capacity is important to me. The difference between 9mm 124 gr. +P and 357 sig is not enough to sacrifice that extra round. My vote goes to 9 mm for CCW.

bowtie454
09-14-2010, 09:39
Here are some recent TC numbers:

Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed "shock" of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth."


I've read this opinion before. My problem with it is that a hard enough blow to the heart can induce cardiac arrest. The above statement implies that a supersonic projectile which causes a shock wave (temporary cavitation) up to 3.5" in diameter, in a fraction of a second, cannot create the same effect. Doesn't make sense to me. Granted, I am talking about a shot that is extremely close to the heart, meaning that the "shock" effect is as limited by shot placement as anything else.

Also, I've seen enough big game animals shot to know that there isn't a clean hole all the way through. The innards tend to become jelly after a supersonic round passes through them. Are you telling me human innards don't react the same way? Even through muscle, the effects of the round can be seen several inches away from the actual bullet hole (we call it "bloodshot"). Seems to imply there is at least SOME permanent damage caused by the temporary cavitation.

I'm not a doctor or a ballistics expert, but I know what I've seen and I have a fair grasp of physics. While I agree that the "one shot stop" abilities of any powerfull cartridge are a myth, I just can't agree that kinetic energy plays not part in incapacitation. If you shoot two deer, one with a .30-30, and one with a .30-378 Weatherby Magnum, same distance, same bullet, same shot placement, you are going to see a difference in the amount of internal damage done. Granted, the velocity difference between the two is substantially more than the difference between a 9mm and a .357 Sig, but the concept is still the same. Is kinetic energy a difference maker in stopping power? Probably not in most cases. But the blanket argument that it has absolutely no effect and causes no increased permanent damage is one that I just can't swallow.

M&P Shooter
09-14-2010, 09:46
I've read this opinion before. My problem with it is that a hard enough blow to the heart can induce cardiac arrest. The above statement implies that a supersonic projectile which causes a shock wave (temporary cavitation) up to 3.5" in diameter, in a fraction of a second, cannot create the same effect. Doesn't make sense to me. Granted, I am talking about a shot that is extremely close to the heart, meaning that the "shock" effect is as limited by shot placement as anything else.

Also, I've seen enough big game animals shot to know that there isn't a clean hole all the way through. The innards tend to become jelly after a supersonic round passes through them. Are you telling me human innards don't react the same way? Even through muscle, the effects of the round can be seen several inches away from the actual bullet hole (we call it "bloodshot"). Seems to imply there is at least SOME permanent damage caused by the temporary cavitation.

I'm not a doctor or a ballistics expert, but I know what I've seen and I have a fair grasp of physics. While I agree that the "one shot stop" abilities of any powerfull cartridge are a myth, I just can't agree that kinetic energy plays not part in incapacitation. If you shoot two deer, one with a .30-30, and one with a .30-378 Weatherby Magnum, same distance, same bullet, same shot placement, you are going to see a difference in the amount of internal damage done. Granted, the velocity difference between the two is substantially more than the difference between a 9mm and a .357 Sig, but the concept is still the same. Is kinetic energy a difference maker in stopping power? Probably not in most cases. But the blanket argument that it has absolutely no effect and causes no increased permanent damage is one that I just can't swallow.
You are 100% correct and accurate.

PersonOfInterest
09-15-2010, 03:02
I know the 357 magnum does a better job then the 45acp & .40cal but as far as the 9mm truth hurts theory I'll stick with the countless LE encounters that are documented to base my feelings towards the 9mm on humans and my own experience against 4 legged things:wavey:

P.S. I am liking the 357sig over 9mm/.40/45acp for animal hunting but would prefer a 10mm or 357 magnum myself when talking about taking game with a service caliber. I grew up in Pike county, PA and have hunted with my father and brother for many years in the mountains of PA with everything from 22lr to 44magnum in handguns and can tell you the 9mm is not to good for taking decent size game.

Well i can also tell you ive seen 1st hand what a .45auto can do to a human being and the results werent so impressive added to which theres been plenty of experiences of LEO's and people using .45s that have had failures (thats goes for the .40 too) on top of that ive known enough people who have used the 9mm ball in the military and had nothing but good results - that covers 3 places in the world btw.

As for not being able to take decent sized game with the 9mm - well mine have ranged in size from as small as130lbs all the way upto 200lbs and most were 1 shot stops and like i said my numbers of kills are higher than most people due to the high amount of feral animals i see and kill, ive made shots at 50 yards, 10 yards and everything in between - only time it failed me was using 115gn projectiles. Sounds more like the shooter than the round to me - if i can do it over 200times i dont see why you cant.

So you like the 357sig? so whats so different about it and the 9mm using a 124gn JHP at 1300fps? only difference i can see is the fact the 9mm wont get to those speeds in a short barrel.

M&P Shooter
09-15-2010, 05:16
Well i can also tell you ive seen 1st hand what a .45auto can do to a human being and the results werent so impressive added to which theres been plenty of experiences of LEO's and people using .45s that have had failures (thats goes for the .40 too) on top of that ive known enough people who have used the 9mm ball in the military and had nothing but good results - that covers 3 places in the world btw.


9mm ball is doing better then .40 & 45acp:upeyes:
Have a nice day I'm out of here:wavey:

PersonOfInterest
09-15-2010, 07:21
9mm ball is doing better then .40 & 45acp:upeyes:
Have a nice day I'm out of here:wavey:
Once again missing the point entirely
as you did trying to quote me on the .38special - even when i never brought the subject up.
Ill explain it a bit better and hopefully finger puppets wont be necessary
Ive know guys my whole life whove used the 9mm ball in war zones who swear by it - ive seen a .45ACP fail on a human being using 230gn SXT's.
Anymore explaining?
Either can fail either can work - youll just never know till it happens, given what ive seen 1st hand with .45s and .40's i cant seen any reason why there better than hot 9mm's.
You have a nice day too. :wavey:

BOGE
09-15-2010, 10:22
All I`ll say is this: at circa. 1300 fps the dynamics seem to change for the 9mm as well as for the .357 SIG. Something happens for sure and whatever it is it works. That being said there is no factory 9mm 124 or 127 gr. that breaks 1300 fps. in a stock barrel. Fired from a High Power the Win. 127 gr. +p+ averages about 1275 fps. The 124 gr. Speer +p less. To break the magic 1300 fps ``wall`` you have to use 115 gr. +p or +p+ or you could just buy a .357 SIG.

M&P Shooter
09-15-2010, 18:33
ive seen a .45ACP fail on a human being using 230gn SXT's.
ive seen 1st hand with .45s and .40's i cant seen any reason why there better than hot 9mm's.



Well like I said before I disagree on a 9mm being just as good or better then a .40, 45acp, 10mm, 357 magnum. If the 9mm is working for you enjoy and keep getting in that range time:wavey:

cowboy1964
09-15-2010, 19:14
Well like I said before I disagree on a 9mm being just as good or better then a .40, 45acp, 10mm, 357 magnum.

Would you agree that a 44 magnum is "better" than a 45 ACP?

We can do this all night long. To what point?

MyGunCulture
09-15-2010, 20:04
Just to clarify, this whole discussion is about 2nd place right? Clearly these other rounds are all inferior to the .25 ACP! I like to take water buffalo in the wild with mine. :rofl:

M&P Shooter
09-15-2010, 20:10
Would you agree that a 44 magnum is "better" than a 45 ACP?

We can do this all night long. To what point?
Yes the 44 magnum is better for 4 legged targets but too much penetration for 2 legged defense and Guns N Roses are better then Aerosmith:supergrin:

M&P Shooter
09-15-2010, 20:11
Just to clarify, this whole discussion is about 2nd place right? Clearly these other rounds are all inferior to the .25 ACP! I like to take water buffalo in the wild with mine. :rofl:
Extreme Shock ammo:supergrin:

marvin
09-15-2010, 23:20
All I`ll say is this: at circa. 1300 fps the dynamics seem to change for the 9mm as well as for the .357 SIG. Something happens for sure and whatever it is it works. That being said there is no factory 9mm 124 or 127 gr. that breaks 1300 fps. in a stock barrel. Fired from a High Power the Win. 127 gr. +p+ averages about 1275 fps. The 124 gr. Speer +p less. To break the magic 1300 fps ``wall`` you have to use 115 gr. +p or +p+ or you could just buy a .357 SIG.


well i guess that depends on which barrel. in my glock 17L 124 gr. speer +p went over 1360 fps. 115 grain corbon +p over 1500 fps. hell even 115 gr. WW box go over 1250 fps.

now i wouldn't carry this gun but i would pick it up to see what went bump in the night.

PersonOfInterest
09-16-2010, 03:21
Well like I said before I disagree on a 9mm being just as good or better then a .40, 45acp, 10mm, 357 magnum. If the 9mm is working for you enjoy and keep getting in that range time:wavey:
Hoooray! :highfive::horsey:
For those who say you cant get a 9mm to that speed well - do as i do handload them.
Got a great pic of a single shot made at 30yards on a 160lbs goat on the run, the blood that animal lost in an instant was pretty spectacular - cant post the pic here but anyone who wants it shoot me a PM. (no dead animal in the pic just a big patch of blood right near by).

Glockbuster
09-16-2010, 09:08
Do that handload with a 357 sig and get over 1500 fps!!!

M&P Shooter
09-16-2010, 15:41
Hoooray! :highfive::horsey:

Ride that horsey cowboy:supergrin::wavey:

PersonOfInterest
09-17-2010, 03:04
Do that handload with a 357 sig and get over 1500 fps!!!
Yep been there done that :)
only thing you have to watch then is that the projectile your using will hold together under that velocity - .355 124gn xtp wont, .355 125gn GD will, 125gn Sierra wont aaaaand so on.

Glockbuster
09-17-2010, 08:39
Yep, gotta be the gold dot.

DakPara
09-24-2010, 22:33
I can shoot the crap out of my G32C and G31C. About as fast as I can pull the trigger into roughly 3" at 15 yards with full power ammo. This is faster than my conventional G17 and G19.

Mostly Gold Dot here.