Duty Ammo: ATF .40 v NYPD 9mm [Archive] - Glock Talk

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BrokenArrow
09-09-2010, 10:53
In light of the $40 million ATF contract w Glock and S&W for .40 caliber pistols, thought I would toss this out there.

ATF Speer 165 GD at @1050 fps from G22
NYPD Speer 124 +P GD at @1220 fps from G19

Test info from Speer:

bare gel
ATF 12.3/.66
NYPD 12/.73

heavy Clothing
ATF 13.4/.62
NYPD 12.5/.64

plywood
ATF 15.6/.60
NYPD 16/.51

Steel
ATF 17.2/.50
NYPD 17/.46

wallboard
ATF 12.8/.62
NYPD 12.2/.68

auto glass
ATF 10.7/.64
NYPD 14.5/.67 (typo?)

Both look OK to me.

FWIW, the FBIs 147/9 and 180/40 Ranger Bonded are pretty close too.

BadAndy
09-09-2010, 11:43
I like 9mm.

Captain Caveman
09-09-2010, 12:49
Were issued 124gr+P 9mm's. I really like how they shoot.

AZBru88
09-09-2010, 13:23
Amazing results, its surprising how close most pistol calibers really are. Shot placement!!! I understand the other side of the argument, big bullet...big hole! Which is right...probably both. Not every HP will open up, weird things happen to a bullet in a human body! I think this topic could be argued for ever. But very neat results, thanks for sharing...Bru

fastbolt
09-09-2010, 13:28
Isn't it interesting how much of the R&D that's been lavished on defensive ammunition in recent years has seemingly resulted in a sort of increasing homogeneity of "performance" results when considered in the more common scientific ballistic testing scenarios?

Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean everything will remain as predictable or as consistent outside the lab environment, but what is?

I like shooting 9's & .45's better than .40's myself, but they're still just handguns chambered in the more commonly used defensive calibers found in service usage.

Snowman92D
09-09-2010, 17:11
ATF Speer 165 GD at @1050 fps from G22
______

Saw they'd adopted the down-loaded FBI-style version of the 165-grain Gold Dot. The standard factory Gold Dot 165's clocked about 1,170 fps from a Glock 22 last time I tested any of them. If you're gonna down-load the .40 cartridge so the IBO's can shoot it, you just as well issue 9mm's and be done with it.

BrokenArrow
09-09-2010, 17:36
How the "Fed-Lite" and std 165 GD ( at @ 1150 fps) compare (avg of 5 rounds from G22):

Bare
slow 12.3/.66
fast 10.3/.86

Cloth
slow 13.4/.62
fast 12.2/.66

Plywood
slow 15.6/.60
fast 16.2/.61

Steel
slow 17.2/.50
fast 18/.51

Wallboard
slow 12.8/.62
fast 11.5/.72

Glass
slow 10.7/.64
fast 11.8/.58

FBI adopted the slower round cuzz it actually did "better" in their test series, that is it had a better "success rate", the number/percentage of rounds penetrationg at least 12 inches. Being easier to shoot was just icing on the cake from their point of view.

The FBI's latest 9/40 ammo contracts are for Ranger Bonded. I would not be surprised if the ATF, etc piggy backs that ammo contract in the future, or the FBI, etc piggybacks the ATF pistol contract in the future...

Looking at all this, along w the Speer 125/357 SIG GD results (virtually identical to the 124 +P 9mm), I will be done w it and just stick w the 9 minimeter!

When I'm not carrying my old Ruger Speed Six in .38 Special that is... ;)

Berto
09-09-2010, 21:19
Oh come on, .38sp isn't as powerful as 9mm.......:whistling:

G27Chief
09-09-2010, 21:33
Oh come on, .38sp isn't as powerful as 9mm.......:whistling:

:popcorn: Oh bro you did not go there!

Snowman92D
09-10-2010, 02:55
FBI adopted the slower round cuzz it actually did "better" in their test series...

Well...that certainly inspires confidence. :whistling:

I recall several years ago that their tests showed Federal Cartidge's 125-grain .38 Special +P jhp did "better" than Federal's 125-grain .357 magnum jhp. Guys are still laughing about that one.


When I'm not carrying my old Ruger Speed Six in .38 Special that is... ;)

I was issued one of those beauties in .357 with the 2.75-inch barrel. Really a sweetheart of a shooter! :thumbsup:

pochis
09-10-2010, 08:46
with the improvements on ammo design my vote goes 9mm

bear62
09-10-2010, 09:11
Interesting thread guys.........:wavey:

BrokenArrow
09-10-2010, 09:20
I recall several years ago that their tests showed Federal Cartidge's 125-grain .38 Special +P jhp did "better" than Federal's 125-grain .357 magnum jhp. Guys are still laughing about that one.

Yep.

bare
125/38 Fed, 12.1/.53
125/357 Fed, 10.6/.49

125/38 Rem GS 13.4/.59
125/357 Rem GS 14.4/.56

cloth
125/38, Fed 13.6/.43
125/357, Fed 11.75/.51

125/38 Rem GS 14.5/.59
125/357 Rem GS 20.5/.48

Not the only oddity. The heavier/slower 9/38s did better than the lighter/faster +P+ 9/357s too.

The 110-125/357 and 115/9 +P+ were all around 11.5 inches/.50 caliber avgs w a 35% "success rate" for the entire 8 event/40 shot series. The best 147g 9/38s were around 16/.50/82.5 - 92.5%. About the same/better than the 145/357 Mag Silvertip...

124/9 +P and 135/38 +P GDs work for me. YMMV. :)

GunFighter45ACP
09-10-2010, 09:32
modern ammo developments & engineering seems to do alot for leveling the playing field when it comes to similar calibers. IMO, this is a good thing, so if you are starting out from scratch or facing budgetary considerations, cost will be a big factor to consider. With the # of sworn men & women patrolling the streets of NY, it's no wonder that 9mm continues to serve alongside them. BATFE, & most other fed agencies will most likely stay in .40 because combined, they have the #s to keep .40 costs low. There will always be specific units that want/need a different caliber, & 'grandfathered in' weapons/calibers or approved weapons lists will ensure that you'll see some variety in their holsters, but when they start issuing ammo, it's nice to know that across the board, your terminal ballistic results should be similar & officers/special agents won't be 'less safe' if they are in a different caliber then their peers.

gatorboy
09-10-2010, 10:49
I'd like to have some of those downloaded 165's for HD.

Glockbuster
09-10-2010, 12:24
BrokenArrow, that is very informative posts as always, thanks very much.

Im really wondering what is the purpose of having this slow 165 Gold dot. There are some serious expansion issues out there on it.

Im impressed--always have been--with the 124gr. 9 mm. +P load.

Could you post this same data for Speers GD 155 grain load ?

Thunderbolt56
09-10-2010, 12:36
I'd like to have some of those downloaded 165's for HD.

Just get the Speer Gold Dot SB's. Not exactly the same, but...

BrokenArrow
09-10-2010, 12:37
Dont' have complete FBI test series results for that load.

From FBI

155/40 GD 1993

bare 10.7/.84
cloth 18.1/.57

155/40 GD 1997

bare 10.7/.84
cloth 17.7/.58

From SDSD 2003

bare 10.8/.81
cloth 11/.77
denim 13.1/.71
wboard 11/.68
pwood 21.6/.49
steel 18.6/.53
glass 13.2/.60

From Doc GKR 2007

bare 15.8/.64
denim 16/.60
glass 12/.55

BadAndy
09-10-2010, 12:42
Too bad they don't test rounds on death row inmates instead of harmless blocks of gel.

Glockbuster
09-10-2010, 12:42
OK Thanks, I like that load.

IndyGunFreak
09-10-2010, 13:44
Amazing results, its surprising how close most pistol calibers really are. Shot placement!!!

Yup, whats more amazing, is some folks act like if you're not carrying (insert latest whiz bang ammo) then you have no chance. Same if you're not carrying (some super duper caliber)...

Bottom line, Placement gets it done, if you can't do that, then you're better off practicing more than worrying about what ammo you choose.

IGF

fastbolt
09-10-2010, 13:57
Mindset, training, skillset, practice, experience ....

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gun platform (anticipated usage & tasking)
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caliber & load used.

Glolt20-91
09-10-2010, 14:17
Mindset, training, skillset, practice, experience ....

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.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
gun platform (anticipated usage & tasking)
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
caliber & load used.

This works we for me

I'd still rather have the person being given the ammunition place more focus on their mindset, skillset and ability to employ the tactics they've been taught in the necessary strategic manner during a shooting situation ... rather than think that things are going to be easier and they have some intrinsic advantage over an attacker just because they've been given a "better" bullet.
fastbolt

Bob :cowboy:

IndyGunFreak
09-10-2010, 14:57
If I may be so bold... what is the second number? I know the first one is penetration. I'd always assumed it was expansion, but I'm not 100% sure.

IGF

Glockbuster
09-10-2010, 15:28
Yes, expansion it is.

Unnamed
09-10-2010, 18:51
Very interesting posts, thank you. As an officer about to start carrying the Gold Dot 124 +P rounds I'm glad to know that they're well regarded. Even if the occasional scumbag survives 20 of them.

BrokenArrow
09-10-2010, 19:07
xx penetration/yy expansion

FBI "success rate" (percent of rounds penetrating at least 12 inches)

40 round total, so 82.5% would be 33 of 40 went at least 12 inches.

I agree; of all the things that do matter, your gun and ammo matter the least. ;)