9mm +P and +P+ ammo. Possibly "downgrading from 40". [Archive] - Glock Talk

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thegriz18
09-10-2010, 11:12
Ok, well, I'm thinking of switching to 9mm for EDC. I shoot the 40 just fine. No issues at all with that. I use a G23 for EDC, and am thinking about giving my Gen 2 G17 a whirl. IMO there is really no difference between a hot +P 9 mil load and a good 40 load when it comes to performance. Federal lists their HST 124 +P (P9HST3) at 1200 fps. On their poster they list velocity from a G17 at ~1250fps. Do many of you guys get that type of velocity from this round?

The next candidate is the venerable 9BPLE. That load is a proven performer by IL SP. I don't think it would be a bad choice at all.

The next choice is RA9TA, or Ranger T 124 +P+. Hot load, good performance.

Next up is Ranger Bonded/PDX1 124 +p. Seems to be a good load. My 165's in 40 performed very nicely in my own tests.

Out of those, I've searched for info on all of them both on here and on the net. I'm looking for experiences with these. Chrono, pen, exp, etc...

Now you might be asking why would I switch to a G17 from a G23. Well the real answer is I really like the Gen2 frame. Just feels so good. However, more than that is ammo price. Not SD ammo, but range ammo. I like to shoot. Forty rounds are $14 a box vs $10 for 9mm. For the cost of 2 boxes of 40 I can buy 3 boxes of 9 mil for a couple more bucks. Shoot Federal Champion, and then throw a box of Winchester NATO FMJ in there to duplicate my SD load and I'm good to go. As for carry, I'm going to go with a Nick Mathew's #1. Good holster, should work nicely. But this thread is about the 9 mil round, not EDC.

Fire Away Guys!!!!

Captain Caveman
09-10-2010, 11:23
Our issued platform is the 17 with 124+P HST's. I have complete confidence in both to defend my life every day.

JBP55
09-10-2010, 11:25
I really like the 124+P HST. Pictures from yesterday with a G4 G17 shooting the HST3 from a rest at 75'.

thegriz18
09-10-2010, 11:43
Thanks guys! Either of you have any real world chrono data or performance experience? Gel tests, BG's, deer, etc..? The accuracy looks really nice.

carbofan21
09-10-2010, 14:07
"downgrading" heh

Glockbuster
09-10-2010, 15:31
"downgrading" heh


This.

I would hardly call it a downgrade. Put some gold dots 124 gr. +P and youŽll get nearly identical or better results. And, more capacity to boot.

thegriz18
09-10-2010, 15:57
The downgrade was tongue in cheek

Roering
09-10-2010, 16:37
+P+...++p...p++....

Whatever, you're still going to a smaller bullet.
Not that there is anything wrong with that.
If you are comfortable with it and confident with it why not.

thegriz18
09-10-2010, 16:40
+P+...++p...p++....

Whatever, you're still going to a smaller bullet.
Not that there is anything wrong with that.
If you are comfortable with it and confident with it why not.

I'm not volunteering to take a hit... Today it hit me. I bought 200 rounds for $42 and change. 200 rounds of 40 would have cost me $52. I bought 3 boxes of Fed Champion at $9.47 and one box of RWS at $12.47. The RWS stuff is pretty stout. More recoil that the Fed Champion.

hounds2
09-10-2010, 16:41
i never understood the logic of pushing a round beyond its design to equal a round that is already available in the same gun. however, your financial reasoning is at least a logical one. i have a glock 19, glock 27 and glock 36. my 19 is a beautiful shooting gun, and is my main go-bang gun. i carry the 27 or the 36 for SD. by practicing with one glock i feel is practicing with all glocks. just may opinion..now to my comment on your post. my 19 with +p hydroshocks is no fun to shoot. as much flash and recoil as my 27, maybe more. with +p+, which i think you would need to use to reach the energy of the 40, it is miserable. you must be sure that if you practice with standard loads and carry atomic loads for SD you can make the transition if needed. you will need to practice with the +p+ if you intend on being confidentwith itin a stressful situation. your 9mm will be a different gun. good luck

scott

thegriz18
09-10-2010, 16:55
i never understood the logic of pushing a round beyond its design to equal a round that is already available in the same gun. however, your financial reasoning is at least a logical one. i have a glock 19, glock 27 and glock 36. my 19 is a beautiful shooting gun, and is my main go-bang gun. i carry the 27 or the 36 for SD. by practicing with one glock i feel is practicing with all glocks. just may opinion..now to my comment on your post. my 19 with +p hydroshocks is no fun to shoot. as much flash and recoil as my 27, maybe more. with +p+, which i think you would need to use to reach the energy of the 40, it is miserable. you must be sure that if you practice with standard loads and carry atomic loads for SD you can make the transition if needed. you will need to practice with the +p+ if you intend on being confidentwith itin a stressful situation. your 9mm will be a different gun. good luck

scott
When I shot it today for the first time in months I was shocked at the lack of recoil. I was prepared for the sharp recoil of the 40 and was surprised when the muzzle barely moved. Granted I was shooting some weak 115 FMJ at 1125fps. The RWS ammo which AFAIK is close to NATO spec, was stout. I don't think that +P or +P+ ammo will give me much of a hassle since I am used to shooting hot 165gr. .40 cal loads.

docholliday1
09-10-2010, 17:00
I shot and chrono'd that round about 2 hours ago out of my Gen4 19. 17 shots averaged 1195fps, 1215-1182 fps across a Prochrono Digital. I also shot a opossum at about 3 feet and dug the bullets out of the dirt, expanded to .580-.605.
I also chrono'd 10 rnds of M882 military 124gr ball ammo and it was even hotter, av 1239fps with 1263-1215fps range.

Merkavaboy
09-10-2010, 17:10
Shooting my two G19's and my G26 with Federal 9BPLE there is LESSmuzzle flip than shooting my hardly ever used G23 with standard 180gr range loads.

Years ago my buddy and I were able to chronograph the 9BPLE out of my G19.
At appeox 90 degrees temp at 1351ft altitude a 5-shot average of 9BPLE out of the G19 was 1319 fps.

And BTW, to all those nay-sayers, the 115 +P+ loads (especially the Win and Fed loads) have been reliably putting down BGs looooonnnng before the 40 Short & Week EVER existed.

thegriz18
09-10-2010, 17:24
I shot and chrono'd that round about 2 hours ago out of my Gen4 19. 17 shots averaged 1195fps, 1215-1182 fps across a Prochrono Digital. I also shot a opossum at about 3 feet and dug the bullets out of the dirt, expanded to .580-.605.
I also chrono'd 10 rnds of M882 military 124gr ball ammo and it was even hotter, av 1239fps with 1263-1215fps range.

What load did you chrono?

thegriz18
09-10-2010, 17:25
Shooting my two G19's and my G26 with Federal 9BPLE there is LESSmuzzle flip than shooting my hardly ever used G23 with standard 180gr range loads.

Years ago my buddy and I were able to chronograph the 9BPLE out of my G19.
At appeox 90 degrees temp at 1351ft altitude a 5-shot average of 9BPLE out of the G19 was 1319 fps.

And BTW, to all those nay-sayers, the 115 +P+ loads (especially the Win and Fed loads) have been reliably putting down BGs looooonnnng before the 40 Short & Week EVER existed.

I can only imagine what it will look like from a G17. Probably 1320fps at my altitude. That's a hot load. What was Pen and Exp like, if you tested it?

docholliday1
09-10-2010, 17:31
Sorry missed that part, it was the Federal HST 124gr +P 9mm

Merkavaboy
09-10-2010, 18:32
I can only imagine what it will look like from a G17. Probably 1320fps at my altitude. That's a hot load. What was Pen and Exp like, if you tested it?

At the time we were testing 9mm Extreme Shock in a ballistic wax block that is supposed to be similar to gel blocks and provided by Jeff Mullins of ES.

IIRC the 9BPLE got around 9.5", which is in the neighborhood of 10" in gel. It mushroomed well, but we didn't get a chance to weigh the slug.
The Win 147SXT Black Talon my buddy shot zipped right thru the block and wasn't recovered.

GunFighter45ACP
09-10-2010, 21:06
I'm considering a 'downgrade' to 9mm from .40 as well, for a few different reasons, mostly posted elsewhere. Although this is far from scientific, I've come to the conclusion that the .40 just doesn't do anything for me. I love shooting 45acp & 357sig, but the 9mm just seems to do so well at whatever I ask of it. Couple that w/a G19, which truly seems to be the darling of all Glock pistols, & I think I'll have a winner.

As to terminal ballistics, check out some Youtube if you haven't already done so & I think you'll come up w/what you're lookig for.

JK-linux
09-10-2010, 21:25
IMHO, either 9BPLE or the RA9TA would do a number on someone. I ran the ISP 115 for ages since it was the "gold standard" back in the day, but went 124 a while back. Mostly, it seemed like I was able to follow up quicker with 124's in general. I just chug along better with that weight - go figure. Of course, 90% of the time, 5 rounds of 158gr .38 +P gets me through the day, so what do I know. ;)

Ak.Hiker
09-11-2010, 03:09
The Glock 17 is the most reliable of all Glocks. Loaded with the hot 115 +P type loads out of a Glock 17 it is real close to the 125 grain 357 Magnum loads out of a short barrel revolver with 3 times the ammo. You have lots of good ammo choices in 9mm as well.

Jr.
09-11-2010, 06:51
9BPLE is what I feed my G19's. Never had a problem and the recoil is much less than a G23 with paper loads. The 9BPLE saved my dogs when they were still pups from a coyote. 1 shot and the 65lb coyote stopped in its tracks while in a full out charge at my dogs. I was about 50-75 feet away when I took the shot and it was not a ideal shot by any means.

Great Googly Moogly
09-11-2010, 07:18
9BPLE is what I feed my G19's. Never had a problem and the recoil is much less than a G23 with paper loads. The 9BPLE saved my dogs when they were still pups from a coyote. 1 shot and the 65lb coyote stopped in its tracks while in a full out charge at my dogs. I was about 50-75 feet away when I took the shot and it was not a ideal shot by any means.

Governor Perry shot a 'yote with a .380.

msoprano
09-11-2010, 07:50
9BPLE is what I feed my G19's. Never had a problem and the recoil is much less than a G23 with paper loads. The 9BPLE saved my dogs when they were still pups from a coyote. 1 shot and the 65lb coyote stopped in its tracks while in a full out charge at my dogs. I was about 50-75 feet away when I took the shot and it was not a ideal shot by any means.

That's a big one!!! Did you mount him or anything?

stopatrain
09-11-2010, 07:56
Federal 9BPLE is one of my favorites.

unit1069
09-11-2010, 08:01
Governor Perry shot a 'yote with a .380.

At very close range.

But that aside the governor is a poster boy for an armed citzenry since he was able to protect his pet by stopping the coyote attack with a single shot.

Gov. Perry's security detail wasn't needed, but had the coyote been an illegal alien out to commit a felony the governor's security detail would have been too late if the hypothetical criminal's intent was to harm or kill the governor.

Addendum: I went back and searched news of the incident and the governor was jogging without his security detail. Bad show, governor! Take your security more seriously.

Jr.
09-11-2010, 08:41
That's a big one!!! Did you mount him or anything?

County hauled it away for lab work, they had one come in a week earlier that was rabid.

MURRAY
09-11-2010, 09:15
I was all 40 had all three glock 40's loved them shot them well I then tried out a Gen2 G19 then after some research and testing I now carry the 9's. I love the xtra ammo I train more with it. I dont think 40 is bad but for me there is no that big a diff so. I would rather carry a couple more thats all. With the right load your good to go

RWBlue
09-11-2010, 10:20
I have said it before and I will say it again.

There is not enough difference between any of the premium ammunition, 9mm through 45ACP to make a difference on humans.

If you are shooting a heavier bullet at the same velocity from the same weight of gun, it will have more recoil.

Bigger bullets make bigger holes which helps someone bleed out, but this is only a factor IF the gun fight lasts more than a few minutes. For HUNTING, this makes a lot of sence because if the shot is not that great, you still want to bring the game home.

Early expansion means less penetration. In people this is probably a good thing. In animals, it can be a problem.

To the OP:
Remember that Glocks have interchangeable parts. There is no reason not to swap uppers as needed so you can practice with 9mm and carry 40 if that is what you like.

fastbolt
09-11-2010, 13:01
It's really easy to be distracted by paper figures regarding muzzle velocities and muzzle energy when it comes to things like this.

The 9mm is a fine cartridge, especially when you can have access to the more modern hollowpoint ammunition which has benefited from research and development designed to satisfy the needs of major LE customers.

The thing is that even the major LE customers have never really agreed on what it takes to make an "effective" defensive load. Light, middle & heavy weight loads. Standard pressure, +P and +P+ loads. Non-bonded or bonded. The beat goes on ...

While I was not an "enthusiast" of 9mm loads back in the 70's & 80's ... being one of those folks who felt that only .45 ACP & .357 Magnum were "adequate" :rofl: ... after they made me turn in my issued .357 Magnum revolver at the beginning of the 90's and carry a 'high-cap 9' I learned to develop a respect for the cartridge. I eventually picked up a couple of single column small 9's (3913 & CS9) and felt very well served with them. As the small double column mag 9's established themselves I also picked up a couple of them, as well (G26 & SW999c) and liked them, too.

I've carried 9mm loads of all sorts over the years, from standard pressure to +P to +P+, from traditional JHP's to some of the newer designs, from lightweight to middle weight to heavy weight.

Nowadays I don't obsess overly much on the load used. Sure, given my choice I like to use one of the better performing modern loads which have done well in rigidly controlled scientific testing protocols as well as documented shootings (which don't often or easily trickle down from LE/Gov sources, for any number of reasons).

In the last several years I've carried both the Winchester RA9TA 127gr +P+ and the Remington 124gr +P GS (non-bonded), as both have been issued rounds at different times, and I've not had any qualms about it. I've even carried the old-style and some newer style 147gr loads when that was all that was at hand at the moment.

I decided some years ago that standing around debating ballistics and arguing shades of gray when ti came to seemingly subtle nuances of potential 'performance' was a less effective use of my time than getting downrange and just training & practicing.

How well did any of the rounds feed and function in my guns?

How well was I able to shoot them under various training, practice & qualification conditions?

How well could I use the guns I was required to carry on-duty and authorized to carry off-duty?

How well were my guns maintained? (This question was one of the primary motivations for originally wanting to become an armorer, BTW.)

How well did my carry methods work, and how well could I use them under all manner of conditions?

Now that I've carried 9mm's for 20 years and have fired many tens of thousands of rounds of them downrange through quite a number of guns, I've decided that I have a strong preference for it for defensive carry purpose. The reduced felt recoil, recoil management & controllability characteristics make it an excellent choice for my needs. The newer ammunition offers good potential.

Yes, I still like .45's and always will, as well as my .357 Magnum & .44 Magnum revolvers ... and I really like my handful of J-frames as retirement weapons ... and I also appreciate the guns I've carried and used (both issued and owned) chambered in .40 S&W ... but when it comes to a smallish pistol I appreciate and respect the 9mm as a defensive round and gun.

beforeobamabans
09-11-2010, 13:55
As for carry, I'm going to go with a Nick Mathew's #1. Good holster, should work nicely.
I know you want to discuss ammo, but since you brought it up, I thought you might like to know that I recently purchased an NM#1 for my G17 and I absolutely love it. I am used to much more expensive leather holsters and kind of bought the NM on a whim. For $65, I dare say there is no better bang for the buck in custom leather. Nick could easily charge $90-100 for this holster. One thing I especially like for a large gun like the 17 is its low ride and extreme cant. If you like a 3:00-5:00 position, you'll be very happy with this holster choice for a 17. And, he only had a two week lead time when I bought mine last May. I hope you enjoy your pistol and your holster as much as I do.

thegriz18
09-11-2010, 15:37
I know you want to discuss ammo, but since you brought it up, I thought you might like to know that I recently purchased an NM#1 for my G17 and I absolutely love it. I am used to much more expensive leather holsters and kind of bought the NM on a whim. For $65, I dare say there is no better bang for the buck in custom leather. Nick could easily charge $90-100 for this holster. One thing I especially like for a large gun like the 17 is its low ride and extreme cant. If you like a 3:00-5:00 position, you'll be very happy with this holster choice for a 17. And, he only had a two week lead time when I bought mine last May. I hope you enjoy your pistol and your holster as much as I do.

I've got one for my G23.... Nice holster, very nice.

thegriz18
09-12-2010, 11:58
I just did the math and changing to 9mm from 40 is more expensive FOR ME. I don't have any CCW gear for my G17, it is all for my G23. I don't have night sights on my G17, even though their importance is debatable.

Maybe I should primarily practice with my G17 and then send one box of 40 down range at the end so I can maintain my recoil control and handling of my EDC piece?

pant3ra
09-13-2010, 14:40
I just did the math and changing to 9mm from 40 is more expensive FOR ME. I don't have any CCW gear for my G17, it is all for my G23. I don't have night sights on my G17, even though their importance is debatable.

Maybe I should primarily practice with my G17 and then send one box of 40 down range at the end so I can maintain my recoil control and handling of my EDC piece?

Sell your 23 for a 19? Then you have ammunition interchangeability and interchangeable mags between your 19 and 17.

If it's in good condition you can get 450-500$ for it. Then find a nice used g19 for 400-450$. You'll make an initial gain AND not need any CCW gear being the 19 is the same size as the 23.

Roering
09-16-2010, 12:44
Sell your 23 for a 19? Then you have ammunition interchangeability and interchangeable mags between your 19 and 17.

If it's in good condition you can get 450-500$ for it. Then find a nice used g19 for 400-450$. You'll make an initial gain AND not need any CCW gear being the 19 is the same size as the 23.

Remember, you can't use a 19 mag in a 17. It's too short. Other way around is ok of course.

I am a fan of BOTH rounds. And I shoot both out of my G23. I find shooting the .40 helps me to be more accurate because I am forced not to "fight the gun" when shooting. Something I can do with the 9.

I have fired thousands of rounds with the conversion barrell w/ out a hiccup. I don't know that I trust it enough to use for defense though.

teweekley
09-16-2010, 13:47
I have chrono data for 9mm Gold Dot 115gr, Hornady FTX, and assorted FMJ rounds from a Glock 19 and Ruger P95. Anybody interested?

thegriz18
09-16-2010, 19:10
Sell your 23 for a 19? Then you have ammunition interchangeability and interchangeable mags between your 19 and 17.

If it's in good condition you can get 450-500$ for it. Then find a nice used g19 for 400-450$. You'll make an initial gain AND not need any CCW gear being the 19 is the same size as the 23.

I won't sell my 23. It was a gift and it hasn't ever failed me. I just can't completely turn my back on it. I think for now I might stick with the 23. I am thinking about putting a 19 G4 on a payment plan with Buds. Not sure I like that option though.

Ak.Hiker
09-17-2010, 00:47
I have chrono data for 9mm Gold Dot 115gr, Hornady FTX, and assorted FMJ rounds from a Glock 19 and Ruger P95. Anybody interested?

Sounds like interesting information to me. Can you post the numbers?

teweekley
09-17-2010, 08:05
Sounds like interesting information to me. Can you post the numbers?

I can do that my good man.

thegriz18
09-17-2010, 19:41
I can do that my good man. I'm at work right now, but I'll post the tables when I get home.

Great! I bought a box of PDX1 124 +P ammo tonight. This stuff works well in my 40 (165 grain).

teweekley
09-18-2010, 23:48
Great! I bought a box of PDX1 124 +P ammo tonight. This stuff works well in my 40 (165 grain).

Got busy doing stuff the last couple days. Sorry it took me a while fellas.

Here's a snapshot of part of my reloading journal. All results are from factory ammo shot in ~80 degree sunny weather.

file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/tweekley/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot-5.png

Ak.Hiker
09-18-2010, 23:55
Got busy doing stuff the last couple days. Sorry it took me a while fellas.

Here's a snapshot of part of my reloading journal. All results are from factory ammo shot in ~80 degree sunny weather.

file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/tweekley/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot-5.png

Thanks for the data. That LCR runs good with the +P loads.

cowboy1964
09-19-2010, 00:09
Got busy doing stuff the last couple days. Sorry it took me a while fellas.

Here's a snapshot of part of my reloading journal. All results are from factory ammo shot in ~80 degree sunny weather.

file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/tweekley/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot-5.png

Any idea why the Ruger's Gold Dot's velocities are higher than the G19's? The Ruger's barrel is 3.9", right?

pant3ra
09-19-2010, 19:31
Remember, you can't use a 19 mag in a 17. It's too short. Other way around is ok of course..


Yea... I assumed that was a given and I wouldn't have to explain that on GT forum.... :rofl:

teweekley
09-20-2010, 06:59
Thanks for the data. That LCR runs good with the +P loads.

You're welcome. I was a little surprised at the energy jump between the standard and +P loads. Didn't expect it to be that much. You can definitely feel the difference, but it's not unmanageable. Using the general 20% energy increase rule with +P, I was estimating the +P loads to be around 195 ft*lbs based off the WWB data. That's alright, I'll take it!

teweekley
09-20-2010, 07:18
Any idea why the Ruger's Gold Dot's velocities are higher than the G19's? The Ruger's barrel is 3.9", right?

Yeah, the Ruger's barrel is 3.9" and the Glock 19 is 4.02". Ignoring barrel length, the polygonal rifling of the Glock theoretically should have pushed the bullets faster. That theory held true for the other ammo, but the Gold Dot seems to be the exception. Only thing I can figure is the Gold Dot bullet design suits the rifling of the Ruger better than the Glock. I was careful in recording the data and my Dad double-checked it on the chrono's history as I loaded up the next mag. I do remember we both noticed the difference when I was shooting and saw the readouts. I just don't understand it.:dunno: Who knows.

If I get the urge to shootup $10 worth of Gold Dot, I'll redo this portion of the test. Definitely worth some verification.

cowboy1964
09-20-2010, 10:07
I suppose it's possible that the inside diameter of the Ruger's barrel is just a hair larger than the Glock's.

You could also chrono some plain old 115gr FMJs to see if the Ruger gives higher velocities. That would prove it's the barrel and not the bullet.

thegriz18
09-20-2010, 10:40
I think the velocity difference for the G19 and P95 are more the ammo and not the weapons. 3.9 and 4.02 are basically the exact same length. The GDHP shot out of the G19 was probably just a little on the weak side. Some of the shots from the P95 were close to the G19. Glocks typically have fast barrels. If the P95's barrel bore was bigger than the G19 that would result in gas escaping and lower velocity. I'm thinking ammo, not guns.

teweekley
09-20-2010, 10:58
I suppose it's possible that the inside diameter of the Ruger's barrel is just a hair larger than the Glock's.

You could also chrono some plain old 115gr FMJs to see if the Ruger gives higher velocities. That would prove it's the barrel and not the bullet.

On the table I posted, look up above the Gold Dot row. I tested Winchester White Box 115gr FMJ & Federal American Eagle 115gr FMJ. They had higher velocities out of the Glock.

teweekley
09-20-2010, 11:06
I think the velocity difference for the G19 and P95 are more the ammo and not the weapons. 3.9 and 4.02 are basically the exact same length. The GDHP shot out of the G19 was probably just a little on the weak side. Some of the shots from the P95 were close to the G19. Glocks typically have fast barrels. If the P95's barrel bore was bigger than the G19 that would result in gas escaping and lower velocity. I'm thinking ammo, not guns.

I'm leaning more towards the ammo myself as well. It's a very good possibility that the five rounds from the Glock were the weaker ones in the ammo box. I've got some 115gr FMJ coming in the mail soon. When I get a chance, I'm gonna chrono the new FMJ and rechrono some Gold Dots. You guys have peaked my interest to the point where I have to know now.:wiggle:

Roering
09-20-2010, 11:14
Yea... I assumed that was a given and I wouldn't have to explain that on GT forum.... :rofl:

You might be surprised!

DakPara
09-24-2010, 22:16
i never understood the logic of pushing a round beyond its design to equal a round that is already available in the same gun. however, your financial reasoning is at least a logical one. i have a glock 19, glock 27 and glock 36. my 19 is a beautiful shooting gun, and is my main go-bang gun. i carry the 27 or the 36 for SD. by practicing with one glock i feel is practicing with all glocks. just may opinion..now to my comment on your post. my 19 with +p hydroshocks is no fun to shoot. as much flash and recoil as my 27, maybe more. with +p+, which i think you would need to use to reach the energy of the 40, it is miserable. you must be sure that if you practice with standard loads and carry atomic loads for SD you can make the transition if needed. you will need to practice with the +p+ if you intend on being confidentwith itin a stressful situation. your 9mm will be a different gun. good luck

scott

It is like film photography speed from the 70's. You push everything to the max always. Because you can. More power.

teweekley
10-02-2010, 22:10
I'm leaning more towards the ammo myself as well. It's a very good possibility that the five rounds from the Glock were the weaker ones in the ammo box. I've got some 115gr FMJ coming in the mail soon. When I get a chance, I'm gonna chrono the new FMJ and rechrono some Gold Dots. You guys have peaked my interest to the point where I have to know now.:wiggle:

Well, here ya go guys. I chrono'd some more Gold Dots from a different lot number and they appear to still be faster from the P95 than the G19. I also chrono'd some BVAC ammo that I ordered. Just as with all the other ammo, it was faster out of the G19. Seems the Gold Dots are the exception. Must be the bullet design or something. New information is highlighted in the table. The temperature was around 60-65 today compared to 80-85 for the first Gold Dot test.

fortyofforty
10-02-2010, 22:22
I know it's not one of your choices, but have you tried a good 147 grain load? I like them because they are standard pressure, have great penetration, and decent expansion. Also, I find the accuracy is outstanding, which is always a plus, out of my GLOCKs.

cowboy1964
10-03-2010, 13:23
Well, here ya go guys. I chrono'd some more Gold Dots from a different lot number and they appear to still be faster from the P95 than the G19. I also chrono'd some BVAC ammo that I ordered. Just as with all the other ammo, it was faster out of the G19. Seems the Gold Dots are the exception. Must be the bullet design or something. New information is highlighted in the table. The temperature was around 60-65 today compared to 80-85 for the first Gold Dot test.

My theory is the polygonal barrel of the 19 lets the bullet out of the barrel too quickly, wasting some of the +P's pressure potential. Even though the P95's barrel is .12" shorter, the bullet spends more time in the barrel because of the regular rifling, thus allowing the bullet to get slightly higher velocity before it leaves the barrel. If you shot other +P/+P+ ammo besides Gold Dot I think you would see the same results. With 115gr +P+ the gap should be even wider.

We're only talking 20-40fps here which is not very significant. It may be more significant on the 26's 3.46" barrel. That could explain why I feel almost no difference in recoil between regular 124 Gold Dot and +P Gold Dot in my 26.

teweekley
10-03-2010, 20:36
My theory is the polygonal barrel of the 19 lets the bullet out of the barrel too quickly, wasting some of the +P's pressure potential. Even though the P95's barrel is .12" shorter, the bullet spends more time in the barrel because of the regular rifling, thus allowing the bullet to get slightly higher velocity before it leaves the barrel. If you shot other +P/+P+ ammo besides Gold Dot I think you would see the same results. With 115gr +P+ the gap should be even wider.

We're only talking 20-40fps here which is not very significant. It may be more significant on the 26's 3.46" barrel. That could explain why I feel almost no difference in recoil between regular 124 Gold Dot and +P Gold Dot in my 26.

None of the bullets I've tested in my 9s are +P. All standard pressure. I'd like to get my hands on some 124gr+P Gold Dots.:supergrin:

teweekley
10-03-2010, 20:38
I know it's not one of your choices, but have you tried a good 147 grain load? I like them because they are standard pressure, have great penetration, and decent expansion. Also, I find the accuracy is outstanding, which is always a plus, out of my GLOCKs.

Can't say I've tried a 147 load. Ammo in my area is slim pickins. Either have to make a trip to Cabela's or order online. I think next trip I'll pick up some.

cowboy1964
10-03-2010, 21:01
None of the bullets I've tested in my 9s are +P. All standard pressure. I'd like to get my hands on some 124gr+P Gold Dots.:supergrin:

Oops, I didn't even notice. When I see 12xx fps I automatically assume 124+P.

PlasticGuy
10-04-2010, 08:18
I love the .45 ACP, but I don't feel at all handicapped by carrying a 9mm as long as I get to pick the ammo. My preference is for the 115 grain +P+ 9BPLE and the 127 grain +P+ Ranger Talon. I've seen good chrono results for both, good gelatin results for both, good street results for both, and I even killed a deer with the 9BPLE load. Both are very impressive.

Ak.Hiker
10-04-2010, 21:59
I love the .45 ACP, but I don't feel at all handicapped by carrying a 9mm as long as I get to pick the ammo. My preference is for the 115 grain +P+ 9BPLE and the 127 grain +P+ Ranger Talon. I've seen good chrono results for both, good gelatin results for both, good street results for both, and I even killed a deer with the 9BPLE load. Both are very impressive.

Quite a few folks think the 9BPLE would be lacking in its ability to penetrate. What kind of penetration did it have on the deer? Did the bullet hold up? I do know that the 9BPLE has a very good record on the street. Interesting info.

PlasticGuy
10-04-2010, 23:05
Quite a few folks think the 9BPLE would be lacking in its ability to penetrate. What kind of penetration did it have on the deer? Did the bullet hold up? I do know that the 9BPLE has a very good record on the street. Interesting info.
Penetration was in the 9-10" range. Expansion was immediate and impressive. It was a broadside shot on an already wounded deer, so no ethical quandry. The first lung was turned to jello, and the far-side lung was damaged severely also. The deer was dead in less than 10 seconds, which is as fast as I've seen on similar hits with a .308 rifle. I can see why it has earned the reputation it has.

SouthernBoyVA
10-05-2010, 06:10
Here is a link that may answer a number of your questions about various serious loads for the 9mm. You might want to check out the 147gr +P HST as well.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvbRfy0eexw

TommyV
10-05-2010, 08:51
I personally own both 9mm (S&W 5906) and .40 (G22). I like them both. Capacity is barely different. I agree in a short pistol, if I had to choose one, 9mm with probably be my choice with a 124 gr +p but the .40 is definitely a more powerful round but with more recoil. I also own a Beretta CX4 .40 carbine. The .40 definitely has more stopping power out of a 16" barrel than the 9mm.

As mentioned before if you own a .40 Glock, try a conversion barrel if you cannot afford owning a second pistol. If you can afford it, I say definitely get goth pistols. Each has its own advantages. In 165 gr or 155 gr. the .40 is a better man stopper than any 9mm round. Also if you keep your .40, you can easily convert it to .357 SIG

cowboy1964
10-05-2010, 11:58
In 165 gr or 155 gr. the .40 is a better man stopper than any 9mm round.

Slightly better. About 94% vs 91% for one shot stop statistics. And 9mm has slightly better advantages in other areas (cost, capacity, recoil, yada yada yada).

9mm->.357 Sig->.40->.45

The difference in the best loads from one end of the scale to the other is about 5%. I can carry a .45. I will have almost half the rounds and will not practice with it as much as a 9 because of the cost. That trade off may not be worth it.

fastbolt
10-05-2010, 12:14
Personally, I don't see how going from a .40 S&W to a 9mm is "downgrading". It's still one of the common defensive service-type calibers ... and nowadays we have a very good selection of bullet weights and hollowpoint designs for each.

The .40 S&W has a slight advantage, in some respects, when it comes to bullet weight. Sometimes bullet mass is an important consideration.

I remember when a bunch of instructors were standing around at one of the hosted gel shoots I attended and the subject came up about using handgun bullets to defeat auto windshield glass. The ammunition in use by the various agencies represented included a pretty good range of loads, from older 'traditional' JHP's to the newer loads, including one agency that still used a 115gr +P+ round. Rather than get side tracked and mired down in all the issues usually found in non-LE firearms forums :whistling: ... the common consensus was reached pretty quickly and easily, which was that when it came to punching through windshield glass, bullet weight was more important than caliber, and the .40 S&W offered a heavier bullet. Generally nods of assent and then everyone moved on to the next subject. :)

Although I finished my career carrying both .40 S&W and .45 ACP service pistols, I'd have cheerfully continued to carry my previous early production 6906's until my retirement. I still often favor my small 9mm guns over my small .40's (and .45's) when it comes to retirement CCW.

Not anything worth losing sleep over.

I'd worry more about the frequency of proper practice than the caliber. ;)

teweekley
10-05-2010, 12:55
I see another handgun caliber debate starting.:popcorn:

***Opinion started***
Just my .02, there's very little difference between service calibers. I agree that there are slight advantages between the calibers, but nothing is going to match the power of a rifle round. Of course, that doesn't matter either unless you make a CNS shot. Aside from that, probably the only other way to immediately drop an assailant with a non-CNS shot is the psychological effect of being shot. You either have to incapacitate or deter your assailant from continuing his attack. This is what makes sense to me and is by no means the gospel from an expert. I don't claim to be an expert and pray I never have to find out first hand if this information is correct.
***Opinion ended***

Take it for what it's worth.

TommyV
10-09-2010, 08:52
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-HktsSKV6Q&NR=1

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1248864