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michael88
09-12-2010, 17:33
So I'm now considering a saiga 12. From what I've read they're dependable after being broken in. Any of you trust them to be your primary hd weapon? I'm considering just spending a little more and getting one instead of a Remington 870. I can't afford an ar at the moment, but the saiga gives you options to customize. I found one for 475 is that a good price? Let me know your thoughts.

michael88
09-12-2010, 22:29
so nobody knows anything?

1time
09-12-2010, 23:53
They are great shotguns and are a ton of fun to shoot. You cannot leave the mag loaded and in the gun or it will deform the shell that is pressing on the bottom of the bolt. I keep my mag loaded and it the gun but I leave the bolt open. Other than that minor detail you will love it. That is a pretty good price. Here they go from 525 to 650.

space_weazel
09-12-2010, 23:55
I really love mine, its a gun I will never sell and likely one I will get an extra of, mine and the few I have converted for friends have been 100%. Though to get them to look as good as this takes AR money but it can be done piece by piece so that makes it easier.

I take care of all my equipment and as such with most everything I have I wouldn't hesitate to take it and use it. Though for bumps in the night I prefer a handgun and a light it makes a lot more sense in an enclosed space. JMO
http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii143/space_weazel/Guns/IMG_9842.jpg

michael88
09-13-2010, 00:47
Looks quite nice weasel. Just at that time where it's do I go with an 870 or spend the extra

michael88
09-13-2010, 00:47
Btw converted what?

DreamWeaver88
09-13-2010, 00:53
They are imported like the pic below. The trigger assembly is more rearward than an AK47. They can be pretty easily converted so the trigger is in the correct spot so you can use a pistol grip.

http://jsgunparts.com/store/images/saiga12gaugeshotgunbig.jpg

After conversion.

http://pic80.picturetrail.com:80/VOL806/138216/416474/388410895.jpg

michael88
09-13-2010, 08:43
Generally speaking bow much does the conversion run?

rjrivero
09-13-2010, 08:56
Conversions can be done for as little as $150, if you do the work yourself. You can spend as much as you want to on a Saiga-12. There is a strong aftermarket for this particular shotgun.

While it's true you can't leave a loaded magazine in the shotgun on a closed bolt, you CAN leave a loaded magazine in the shotgun with an OPEN bolt. Then you're one bump of the lever away from locked and loaded.

A Saiga loaded with buck, or slugs is as reliable as anything, but when you're asking it to cycle with cheap bulk low brass birdshot, be prepared to do some polishing, and tweaking to get it to run 100%.

Still, it's a fun shotgun and starting to dominate the 3 gun arena.

bikerdog
09-13-2010, 11:03
Why does every one use the SAW grip when they do the conversions. Is it just your preference or are there no other good options ?

rjrivero
09-13-2010, 11:31
Why does every one use the SAW grip when they do the conversions. Is it just your preference or are there no other good options ?
Hell if I know. Maybe because they're so plentiful? I use an AR style grip on mine.

g22od
09-13-2010, 11:44
Seems to be a niche where someone would want to publish a book on how to convert the stock-import Saiga 12 to something more...uh...tacticool. There are lots of people out there doing conversions. Tromix seems to be the top of the heap and as a result you have to enter a monthly lottery to get one done. I keep my eyes open always for anyone in AZ doing conversions as a Saiga 12 seems to be the natural companion for my G-22. Curious if anyone has ever shot trap with one? Seems like it could be fun.

michael88
09-13-2010, 12:41
heard that they shoot high and so aiming dead on helps...for trap.

DreamWeaver88
09-13-2010, 12:56
Why does every one use the SAW grip when they do the conversions. Is it just your preference or are there no other good options ?

I don't know......That's just what Tromix uses. I like the feel of the grip.

DW

rjrivero
09-13-2010, 12:59
Seems to be a niche where someone would want to publish a book on how to convert the stock-import Saiga 12 to something more...uh...tacticool. There are lots of people out there doing conversions. Tromix seems to be the top of the heap and as a result you have to enter a monthly lottery to get one done. I keep my eyes open always for anyone in AZ doing conversions as a Saiga 12 seems to be the natural companion for my G-22. Curious if anyone has ever shot trap with one? Seems like it could be fun.
Books? Books are out-dated by the time they get published.

Take a look at www.forum.saiga-12.com (http://www.forum.saiga-12.com) for any info you could possibly want on Saiga shotguns, conversions, tips, tricks, Conversion Shops, or just about anything else you would want to do to these shot guns.

CTfam
09-14-2010, 15:38
I had one.. Loved it, but now it's gone. Here in CT we can't have pistol grips on semi auto shotguns so I had this crazy butt hole stock that had the ergonomics of a crow bar. This really killed it for me. A proper conversion is a MUST IMO. The sporter AK configuration is just wrong. It was reliable but it would choke on bird shot. The new owner opened up the gas holes and now it runs like a champ.

It is a big, heavy, super fun gun that you will quickly get carried away over building. :cool:

I prefer a very basic pump these days.

brucefire
09-14-2010, 15:46
I love mine. I do trust it. Where you run into trouble is when you use low brass game loads. Full brass has no problems with cycling. Once it is broken in the low brass loads are 95-98% reliable.

Bruce

michael88
09-15-2010, 12:16
ahh i hate decisions, they suck. i was hoping i would get just a bunch of negative reports so i dont have to decide and go based on sense not opinion.

Lurkus Maximus
09-15-2010, 13:35
Who makes that lock system?

I love mine. I do trust it. Where you run into trouble is when you use low brass game loads. Full brass has no problems with cycling. Once it is broken in the low brass loads are 95-98% reliable.

Bruce

ferd
09-15-2010, 14:16
I trust mine. Super reliable with buck loads. I happen to love the Saw grip and have them on some of my other weapons. Also, I am not a dealer or anything like that, but check out MDarms for their drum sale. Their drums flat work, and they are super cheap right now.

shotgunred
09-15-2010, 14:38
Its on my need to buy list.

CTfam
09-15-2010, 16:43
ahh i hate decisions, they suck. i was hoping i would get just a bunch of negative reports so i dont have to decide and go based on sense not opinion.

Do you have the cash for the gun + extras + a pile of buck and slugs to run through it? If yes then buy it and convert it. I'm sure you will love it. If not just sell the thing. The only way you will ever really know is if you buy it and spend some time shooting it. I buy and sell stuff all the time. Renting is not good enough IMO.

michael88
09-16-2010, 10:21
i have the money to buy it and would convert it within the next 6 months. i got money for a remington 870 and i am finding these for only 75 dollars more so it brought up the thought. just one of those gotta figure it out deals. probably makes more sense to get the 870, but the want is with the saiga.

brucefire
09-17-2010, 10:53
Who makes that lock system?

The lock is Magloc. I have a few of them around the house and firmly secure the firearm.

http://www.smartlock.com/triggerlock-r.htm

sorry for the delayed response.

Bruce

DreamWeaver88
09-18-2010, 09:36
The lock is Magloc. I have a few of them around the house and firmly secure the firearm.



Be careful leaving a loaded mag in a Saiga 12. The top round in the mag will get deformed (from pushing up on the bolt) and not feed, unless you have a "last round bolt hold open" on it, and leave it open.

I've read that if you have a slug as the top round, it won't deform as badly.

DW

Z71bill
09-18-2010, 11:34
When Obama gun ban craze was in full swing I looked at a Saiga 12 -

I was at a gun show - saw the price and thought OMG what a deal - IIRC it was $150 :wow:- then I realized that price was for a single 10 round mag:faint:.

What is mag pricing & availability is now?

DreamWeaver88
09-18-2010, 16:03
When Obama gun ban craze was in full swing I looked at a Saiga 12 -

I was at a gun show - saw the price and thought OMG what a deal - IIRC it was $150 :wow:- then I realized that price was for a single 10 round mag:faint:.

What is mag pricing & availability is now?

Mags are plentiful and easy to get. 10 round AGP mags are $30, Surefire 12 rounders are $45, and the MD Arms 20 round drums are on sale right now for $75.

DW

baer_18837
09-18-2010, 19:38
this is my gun that i converted myself a few months ago. it cycles everything i put in it from cheap walmart ammo to high brass slugs. send me a pm if u want and i will send you a video to show you how to convert a saiga 12. http://i743.photobucket.com/albums/xx73/beer_18837/stuff/IMG_0096.jpg

DD26
09-19-2010, 12:37
I love my S12. I bought it when I lived in NY and you can't have PG's on semi-auto shotguns in NY. So I converted it, and put a Bulgarian "thumbhole" on it.

I've since moved to SC, a free state, and donated the stock to a fellow member on the Saiga boards who lives in NY. So now, it's sitting with no stock and no PG. I need to get some furniture for it.

Converting is easy and greatly increases the handling ease and gets rid of the horrible stock trigger. Which uses a linkage bar system, because the trigger is so far back in stock form, which makes it have a crappy pull. A simple Tapco G2 makes a world of difference.

There are videos that illustrate how to do a conversion. Literally, all you need is this: http://store.carolinashooterssupply.com/servlet/-strse-439/SAIGA-12-CONVERSION-KIT/Detail for a basic conversion. (Also you'll need some common sense and basic tools, both of which, I assume you have:supergrin:) Carolina Shooter's Supply are vendors on the Saiga forums. GREAT reputation, great prices and ridiculously fast shipping. Greg, the owner, is a stand up guy. Deal with confidence.


Be careful leaving a loaded mag in a Saiga 12. The top round in the mag will get deformed (from pushing up on the bolt) and not feed, unless you have a "last round bolt hold open" on it, and leave it open.


You don't need a LRBHO to do what you and others have spoken about. S12's come with a manual BHO that will work fine for that; holding the bolt back to keep it from deforming the top shell of the mag.

Scattergun1187
09-19-2010, 16:43
Red Jacket Firearms build custom Saiga 12's.
Will built my S-12 SBS 8". Has Gali charging handle, HK sights, Folding Tromix limb saver stock.

DreamWeaver88
09-19-2010, 19:00
You don't need a LRBHO to do what you and others have spoken about. S12's come with a manual BHO that will work fine for that; holding the bolt back to keep it from deforming the top shell of the mag.

I just checked and my gun does indeed have a MBHO. From reading about them online, it's the earlier Saiga's that don't have them.

DW

XNavyflyer
09-28-2010, 19:31
I keep my eyes open always for anyone in AZ doing conversions as a Saiga 12 seems to be the natural companion for my G-22.
I believe Mazys up here in Chino Valley modifies them and they do a pretty good job by most accounts. I did mine myself:supergrin:

jamesavery22
09-28-2010, 21:52
A Saiga 12's reliability is largely dependent on the mags you use.

For serious use only Izhmash factory mags are up to snuff.

AGP's don't handle temperature changes very well. Leave a mag out in the winter cold for a night and fire a 3" magnum. The mag will snap right out of the shotgun. Plenty of other reported failures too. The winter one was just the best documented one.

Surefire's are good range mags. Get them hot and sandy and you'll get FTF's. They cut corners by having no metal feed lips. Learned this the hard way on the first day of Suarez's shotgun class. Dusty wind + rain + only 50-60 rounds and this issue popped up. And this was with a 4 port S12 that had no issues the same and following day with 5 round izhmash mags.

Promags are... well promags...

The keepshooting.com 5-round clones work well. $12 a mag is really hard to beat. I've beat mine up and had 0 failures.
Still don't trust them over the Izhmash mags though. And those aren't hard to find for $20 a mag. Which is still a good price for a mag.

Izhmash 8 round mags are ideal. Just unavailable. You might get lucky and stumble across someone cleaning out a closet but expect to spend $100+ a mag.

If I couldn't have 8 round Izhmash mags I'd go back to a 11-87 police or a SLP police...
Which is sad. S12 is a great platform. Just ****ty implementation here in the states where no more 8 rounders are imported.

Sure there are plenty of people who use Saiga's with very few issues in 3 gun type matches or square ranges while using the sub par mags.
Just take the shotgun to a decent shotgun course and you'll see the shortcomings of those mags real fast. Leaves a real bad taste in your mouth which I'm guessing you won't trust for serious work.

DD26
09-29-2010, 00:50
A Saiga 12's reliability is largely dependent on the mags you use.

For serious use only Izhmash factory mags are up to snuff.

AGP's don't handle temperature changes very well. Leave a mag out in the winter cold for a night and fire a 3" magnum. The mag will snap right out of the shotgun. Plenty of other reported failures too. The winter one was just the best documented one.

Surefire's are good range mags. Get them hot and sandy and you'll get FTF's. They cut corners by having no metal feed lips. Learned this the hard way on the first day of Suarez's shotgun class. Dusty wind + rain + only 50-60 rounds and this issue popped up. And this was with a 4 port S12 that had no issues the same and following day with 5 round izhmash mags.

Promags are... well promags...

The keepshooting.com 5-round clones work well. $12 a mag is really hard to beat. I've beat mine up and had 0 failures.
Still don't trust them over the Izhmash mags though. And those aren't hard to find for $20 a mag. Which is still a good price for a mag.

Izhmash 8 round mags are ideal. Just unavailable. You might get lucky and stumble across someone cleaning out a closet but expect to spend $100+ a mag.

If I couldn't have 8 round Izhmash mags I'd go back to a 11-87 police or a SLP police...
Which is sad. S12 is a great platform. Just ****ty implementation here in the states where no more 8 rounders are imported.

Sure there are plenty of people who use Saiga's with very few issues in 3 gun type matches or square ranges while using the sub par mags.
Just take the shotgun to a decent shotgun course and you'll see the shortcomings of those mags real fast. Leaves a real bad taste in your mouth which I'm guessing you won't trust for serious work.

Mike D has some double-stack S12 mags in the works. Hopefully they make it at least a little closer to the Izzy quality factory mags.

I'm too poor for factory Izzy 8 rounders. I've had good luck with AGP's, but have heard the horror stories about them crapping out in freezing temps. Haven't taken mine out in those temps.......and now that I'm not living in NY anymore, I won't have to.:supergrin:

carguy2244
09-29-2010, 07:49
Maybe too late to respond to OP, but my Saiga 12 is a bedside gun. I've competed in several "2 guns" with it - it's been 100% reliable, and extremely fast. I definitely trust it, but also keep an AR 10 next to it, and a Glock 20 on the nightstand.
475 seems okay.

Glocker08
09-29-2010, 09:03
Why does every one use the SAW grip when they do the conversions. Is it just your preference or are there no other good options ?

I have a Hogue AK grip on mine, same thing on my SGL-20, love them. Alot of people like the SAW grip though.

DD26
09-29-2010, 11:32
Why does every one use the SAW grip when they do the conversions. Is it just your preference or are there no other good options ?

Because one of the easiest routes as far as installing a new trigger guard is the Tromix DIY trigger guard. Which is a trigger guard that has a PG nut welded onto it. So you don't have to cut a PG hole into the receiver.

(Well, it was the easiest for a long time. A few more companies have since come out with trigger guards now that the S12 has become so popular)

The Tromix is designed to work with the SAW grip. That's why I'm assuming it's the most common one seen. For the record though.......you can use other PG's with the Tromix DIY, but you'll have to do a little tweaking. For instance, I tried installing my factory Izhmash pistol grip onto my DIY, and noticed I'm going to have to cut the grip screw down a tad for it to tighten the grip up all the way.

jwizzl497
11-05-2010, 19:52
Sorry to bring this back but how complicated is the conversion?? Also, how expensive?? I like the pistol grip look but didnt realize that you had to convert it. Looks difficult and complicated.

TwentyNizzo
11-05-2010, 20:53
Am I the only one that loves the SAW grip? I like it so much I want to put one on my AR in favor of the Hogue currently on it but I'm worried I'd be ridiculed! lol.

As for keeping the S12 mag loaded on a closed bolt, the shell does deform a bit but it hasn't impacted feeding for me whatsoever.