Difference between 10mm and 45acp? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Glock27NY
09-16-2010, 10:29
Im not looking to start any caliber wars. I just want to know major differences between these two calibers and is it possible to make 45acp perform as good as or close to 10mm because i want to hunt with my g21. I did use search engine, it keeps giving "error".


Thank You

volsbear
09-16-2010, 10:31
The .45acp is known to rip apart a human body. The 10mm is reputed to rip apart the space-time continuum.

I peed myself just typing "10mm."

Glock27NY
09-16-2010, 10:57
The .45acp is known to rip apart a human body. The 10mm is reputed to rip apart the space-time continuum.

I peed myself just typing "10mm."


Hahahahhahahahahhaha:rofl:!

BadAndy
09-16-2010, 11:03
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Difference+between+10mm+and+45acp%3F

mr peas
09-16-2010, 11:18
The .45acp is known to rip apart a human body. The 10mm is reputed to rip apart the space-time continuum.

I peed myself just typing "10mm."

Haha, I wonder the difference as well. But that there sir, is hilarious.

Glock27NY
09-16-2010, 11:21
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Difference+between+10mm+and+45acp%3F


Thanks but i was looking for someone on glocktalk to answer and maybe be up to date not from 2003.

Ajon412
09-16-2010, 11:28
The .45acp is known to rip apart a human body. The 10mm is reputed to rip apart the space-time continuum.

I peed myself just typing "10mm."

That is pretty funny. If you don't find the answer here, try the GATE Forum.

Foxtrotx1
09-16-2010, 11:43
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Difference+between+10mm+and+45acp%3F

:upeyes: Why don't we just get rid of the forum and switch to google...

adv
09-16-2010, 11:49
The .45acp is known to rip apart a human body. The 10mm is reputed to rip apart the space-time continuum.

I peed myself just typing "10mm."


I bow in your general direction.

Iceman cHucK
09-16-2010, 12:05
Difference is 45ACP @ 11.48mm and 10mm is 1.48mm!!! :cool:

Glock27NY
09-16-2010, 12:11
Thanks for the help, ill go ask someone who actually cares to answer.

Kegs
09-16-2010, 12:29
Here's the basics:

The original specs:

.45ACP: 230gr. @ 850 fps, or 369 ft/lb. muzzle energy.

10mm: 200 gr. @ 1200 fps or 640 ft/lb. muzzle energy.

(both 5" barrels)

Examples of "full loads" available on the commercial market:

Double tap .45ACP 185 @ 1225 fps or 616 ft./lb. muzzle energy from 5" bbl.

Double tap 10mm: 135@1600 fps, or 767 ft/lb. muzzle energy from 4.6" bbl.

*******************************************************

No, you will not be able to near the performance of 10mm with a .45 ACP, but I don't think its gonna be a problem to hunt deer with the G21 in .45 if you used a hot load in the upper limit of that cartridge.

I would not suggest you do this with a federal, Remington or Speer commercial loading - they are going to be sparse on energy.

Keep your shots close (no further than you are able to keep 10 shots out of 10 on a 10" pie plate), and practice with whatever load you are going to use - a LOT.

You might consider purchasing a heavier recoil spring for those stout loads, as they may overpower your stock G21 spring.

Shot placement = win.

fredj338
09-16-2010, 12:40
I personally don't find the Glock platform accurate enough for hunting much past 30yds or so. At that distance, the 45acp loaded to +P levels works fine for deer & hogs. I would go 230grXTP or even 200grXTP loaded to 950fps or 1050fps respectively.
FWIW, Keg's info is not a real comparison. Energy levels w/ light wt bullets can be high for both rounds, but low SD bullets are not the best choice for hunting IMO.

Glolt20-91
09-16-2010, 14:32
Here's the basics:

The original specs:

.45ACP: 230gr. @ 850 fps, or 369 ft/lb. muzzle energy.

10mm: 200 gr. @ 1200 fps or 640 ft/lb. muzzle energy.

(both 5" barrels)

Examples of "full loads" available on the commercial market:

Double tap .45ACP 185 @ 1225 fps or 616 ft./lb. muzzle energy from 5" bbl.

Double tap 10mm: 135@1600 fps, or 767 ft/lb. muzzle energy from 4.6" bbl.

*******************************************************

No, you will not be able to near the performance of 10mm with a .45 ACP, but I don't think its gonna be a problem to hunt deer with the G21 in .45 if you used a hot load in the upper limit of that cartridge.

I would not suggest you do this with a federal, Remington or Speer commercial loading - they are going to be sparse on energy.

Keep your shots close (no further than you are able to keep 10 shots out of 10 on a 10" pie plate), and practice with whatever load you are going to use - a LOT.

You might consider purchasing a heavier recoil spring for those stout loads, as they may overpower your stock G21 spring.

Shot placement = win.

Ahhh, back to energy myth opinions. :supergrin:

The difference, from Double Tap gel penetration data with comparable sectional densities;

DoubleTap 10mm
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1300fps - 15.25" / .96"

DoubleTap .45ACP
230gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1010fps - 15.25" / .95"

Duncan MacPherson WTI energy quote

“. . . every now and then someone wants to analyze or think about a problem involving energy, and when they attempt to do this without really understanding energy or other thermodynamic concepts the result is unfortunate. One such problem is the analysis of any of the various aspects of terminal ballistics; some individuals with inadequate technical training and experience have unwisely and unproductively attempted to use energy concepts in the analysis of bullet impact and penetration in soft tissue. (Many others have simply assumed that energy is the dominant effect in Wound Trauma Incapacitation; this assumption is even more simplistic than the attempt to actually analyze the dynamics problem with energy relationships, and is no more successful).

Any attempt to derive the effect of bullet impact in tissue using energy relationships is ill advised and wrong because the problem cannot be analyzed that way and only someone without the requisite technical background would try. Many individuals who have not had technical training have nonetheless heard of Newton’s laws of motion, but most of them aren’t really familiar with these laws and would be surprised to learn Newton’s laws describe forces and momentum transfer, not energy relationships. The dynamic variable that is conserved in collisions is momentum; kinetic energy is not only not conserved in real collisions, but is transferred into thermal energy in a way that usually cannot be practically modeled. The energy in collisions can be traced, but usually only by solving the dynamics by other means and then determining the energy flow.

Understanding energy and how it relates to bullet terminal ballistics is useful even though energy is not a useful parameter in most small arms ballistics work.”


Bob :cowboy:

NonPCnraRN
09-16-2010, 15:14
For hunting I would use a hardcast bullet. For someone who doesn't reload the 255 gr Buffalo Bore hardcast flat point +P will put a deer down at reasonable ranges. John Linebaugh notes that a 250 gr 44 spl at 900 fps will shoot end to end through a white tail deer. To save the frame of your Glock I would drop in a Fire Dragon recoil reducer or a similar one made by Sprinco. http://www.efkfiredragon.com/products.php?cat=12 and http://www.sprinco.com/recoil.html. To anwer you question about which is better the 45 ACP or 10mm, it would be the 10mm hands down if only commercial ammo was used. Double Tap makes a 10 mm round with a 230 gr WFNGC that is far superior to the Buffalo Bore round. However, the BB 255 gr FP will have no problem busting a deer's shoulder to get to the vitals at reasonable handgun ranges. Reasonable is defined by your ability to make a good shot for a quick clean kill with your Glock. Again hardcast bullets are the choice for hunting. Don't fall for the energy dump/HP mantra as you will want to punch 2 holes through your deer with damage in between. That exit hole will help to ensure a good blood trail if necessary. If you take out a shoulder and the heart/lungs of a deer it won't go far. Deer have a nasty habit of not showing you a picture perfect broadside shot and this is where John Linebaugh's knowledge of what a hardcast bullet will do comes into play. Now if you reload, I would try a Double Tap 255 gr SWC bullet at 950 fps in 45 Super brass. Double Tap sells some of the hardcast bullets used in their ammo as they cast their own bullets. That bullet has a larger meplat (the part that determines wound size) than the BB bullet. But to save you the trouble of working up a load the BB ammo will do quite well. The BB bullets have a good rep at penetration and holding together even after hitting bone. Now go put some venison on the table. I hope this info helped to answer your question.

Daryl in Az
09-16-2010, 15:26
Our government uses ICBM's because the 10mm is considered overkill.

The .45 ACP is the most fun you can have with your clothes on.

:)

Daryl

M&P Shooter
09-16-2010, 15:47
45acp
http://i852.photobucket.com/albums/ab89/Glock40guy/45ACP-2.jpg

10mm
http://i852.photobucket.com/albums/ab89/Glock40guy/10MM-2.jpg

Erich1B
09-16-2010, 16:40
45acp
http://i852.photobucket.com/albums/ab89/Glock40guy/45ACP-2.jpg

10mm
http://i852.photobucket.com/albums/ab89/Glock40guy/10MM-2.jpg

:rofl::rofl::rofl:.......That's pretty funny!

Flatulence
09-16-2010, 17:02
45acp
http://i852.photobucket.com/albums/ab89/Glock40guy/45ACP-2.jpg

10mm
http://i852.photobucket.com/albums/ab89/Glock40guy/10MM-2.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/73/Roflcopter.gif

g36user
09-16-2010, 17:38
You might check into the .45super from Buffalo Bore. It runs at about 1300fps and nearly 700ft lbs out of a 5" barrel. You may need a conversion or swap out the springs. The outer case dimensions are the same as standard .45acp but the case is enhanced internally.

Good luck,

g

dreis454
09-16-2010, 17:50
.45 fan, tagged

BadAndy
09-16-2010, 18:59
:upeyes: Why don't we just get rid of the forum and switch to google...Because GlockTalk isn't the end all be all of answers :upeyes:

Free Radical
09-16-2010, 19:07
Because GlockTalk isn't the end all be all of answers :upeyes:


Don't say that. :crying:

BadAndy
09-16-2010, 19:10
I'm sorry to crush your hopes :rofl:

BWT
09-16-2010, 19:22
The 45acp is a better round until I buy a 10mm at which time the 10 will be just as good, unless I have to sell/trade my 45 for the 10, in which case the 10 will be a much better round.
Very few 2 or 4 legged predators can tell the difference when shot by them.

nursetim
09-16-2010, 21:07
Can I drop a 10mm barrel in a sig 220?

M&P Shooter
09-16-2010, 21:55
Can I drop a 10mm barrel in a sig 220?
No, sorry

SDGlock23
09-17-2010, 07:30
10mm is a little more powerful, .45 shoots a little bigger bullet. Both are good cartridges, but unless you reload, I recommend the .45 over the 10mm.

Jdog
09-17-2010, 10:20
I think if you already have the Glock-21 ..you can drop in the 10mm barrel and mags. Then you could have both. :)

As for reloading my own 10mm ammo?.... nah why bother when you can just buy the real stuff that already has a reputation. Especially if you don't already own the reload stuff. Who cares if the ammo costs me a little bit more than .45
You don't go out and buy a 10mm thinking it's going to be a cheap target pistol.... you buy it because it will do the job if you need it to.

gatorboy
09-17-2010, 11:36
Hunting: 10

Normal SD scenarios, especially HD: 45

SD scenarios that may require longer shots and/or barrier penetration: 10

Range use: 45 if you don't reload or have a drop in 40 barrel for the 10

If you want more power or something a bit different: 10

If 1-2 rd. capacity advantage is important: 10

AZBru88
09-17-2010, 11:45
I think if you already have the Glock-21 ..you can drop in the 10mm barrel and mags. Then you could have both. :)

As for reloading my own 10mm ammo?.... nah why bother when you can just buy the real stuff that already has a reputation. Especially if you don't already own the reload stuff. Who cares if the ammo costs me a little bit more than .45
You don't go out and buy a 10mm thinking it's going to be a cheap target pistol.... you buy it because it will do the job if you need it to.

JDOG I have to disagree with you. I put 3K of stout 180 grn JHP's through my 20/29 last month. Just loaded up 800 rounds of light 180's for the upcoming GSSF shoot next month. Probably load a few hundred more light ones today. Then try some new 155 grn JHP's with a bunch of Blue Dot under it.
I love shooting my 10's, they only cost me a few extra pennies to shoot rather then my 9's. I do have a little over 700 rounds of 9mm loaded in mags right now for tonights shooting with my daughter. While she's tuning up with my G26 I'll be practicing with my 17's.
I love the 10's because you can heat them up or shoot light, med. where ever you want. I also like reloading because I can tailor my rounds for my gun. Get the most accuracy out of the rounds and gun. Will it matter at 10 yards....no, but out at a hundred it really shows up.
I know how much I spent on my 3K rounds last month($568 doesn't include brass cost), I'd be broke buying DT ($2370/3K)or BB(:rofl:about broke my calculator figuring that one out!:rofl:at $29.21/20 rounds = $4381.50/3K) guess thats why I load my own.
:supergrin: Good news is I paid for both my 550B's, 450, and SDB Dillons on just what I loaded up in 10mm last month! But they had paid for themselves many times over through the years.

Glolt20-91
09-17-2010, 11:45
To anwer you question about which is better the 45 ACP or 10mm, it would be the 10mm hands down if only commercial ammo was used. Double Tap makes a 10 mm round with a 230 gr WFNGC that is far superior to the Buffalo Bore round. However, the BB 255 gr FP will have no problem busting a deer's shoulder to get to the vitals at reasonable handgun ranges.

I considered carrying the 230gr WFNGC, but . . . from a Glock barrel, there's an issue of tumbling/keyholing and terrible accuracy at 20yds-30yds plus. Replacing the Glock barrel with a traditional aftermarket barrel remedies this problem.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-m0satEkGjw&feature=fvw

Both of my G20s have Lonewolf barrels plus an extra 6" KKM barrel, but as fred338 stated, first shot accuracy of the G20 at distance is poor compared to some other carry platforms.

If you have a quality 1911 in .45auto and want to get some serious power in the .44mag range, drop in a .460 Rowland conversion that outclasses anything the 10mm can do.

http://www.clarkcustomguns.com/rowland.htm

Cartridge Bullet Weight Grains
Velocityft/sec Energy ft/lbs
460 Rowland 185 1500/925
460 Rowland 200 1450/934
460 Rowland 230 1340/917
45 Super 185 1300/694
45 Super 200 1200/639
45 Super 230 1100/617
44 Rem Mag 210 1250/729
44 Rem Mag 240 1180/741

Also, 185gr Nosler at 1550fps/987fpe . . . 230gr Gold Dots at 1350fps/931fpe, nice prices if they ever get inventory.

http://georgia-arms.com/460rowland.aspx

Bob :cowboy:

fredj338
09-17-2010, 12:13
I think if you already have the Glock-21 ..you can drop in the 10mm barrel and mags. Then you could have both. :)

As for reloading my own 10mm ammo?.... nah why bother when you can just buy the real stuff that already has a reputation. Especially if you don't already own the reload stuff. Who cares if the ammo costs me a little bit more than .45
You don't go out and buy a 10mm thinking it's going to be a cheap target pistol.... you buy it because it will do the job if you need it to.
You either have too much money, don't shoot enough or a govt job. Ammo for the 10mm is quite a bit more expensive than bargain basemnt 45acp. Hunting ammo for either is expensive. Reloading is a must IMO, for magnums & the 10mm.:dunno:
Both of my G20s have Lonewolf barrels plus an extra 6" KKM barrel, but as fred338 stated, first shot accuracy of the G20 at distance is poor compared to some other carry platforms.
Yep, on good days, I can keep shots inside 4" @ 50yds offhand w/ my 4" M29 & full power loads. No Glock has ever been able to do that for me.

gatorboy
09-17-2010, 12:51
Range use: 45 if you don't reload or have a drop in 40 barrel for the 10


A drop in 40 barrel will pay for it self quickly compared to 45 range ammo. 40 ammo is around $275/1,000 shipped these days, 45 is about $75/1,000 more. In just 1,500 rds. you'll be shooting cheaper than with a 45.

Kegs
09-17-2010, 13:34
Ahhh, back to energy myth opinions. :supergrin:



Yeah, because that physics stuff is nonsense,

and biasing your outcomes:

The difference, from Double Tap gel penetration data with comparable sectional densities;

DoubleTap 10mm
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1300fps - 15.25" / .96"

DoubleTap .45ACP
230gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1010fps - 15.25" / .95"

Bob :cowboy:

Is the only thing that counts.

Because we ALL know that ballistic gel is EXACTLY like hide, fir, body fluids and bones...:upeyes:

Jr.
09-17-2010, 13:41
Since you already have the 21 i'd get a 6" aftermarket bbl and ONLY use 255gr hardcast.

Glock27NY
09-17-2010, 14:46
Thanks everyone, I've learned alot!

Roering
09-17-2010, 14:47
The only way to know for sure is to shoot the animal with both rounds (you'll have to do this quickly) run over to it and ask...

"Which hurt more, the first shot or the second?"
"Which shot was most likely the one to kill you"?

Of course, you'll have to find an animal that speaks english.
Not easy for me to do...especially here in Southern CA.

cowboywannabe
09-17-2010, 14:53
i have a 1911 in .45acp and 10mm

the 1911 is made for the .45acp, but in 10mm you need a manly gun like a Glock 20 which makes a 10mm feel like a 9mm.

Glolt20-91
09-17-2010, 15:08
Yeah, because that physics stuff is nonsense,

and biasing your outcomes:



Is the only thing that counts.

Because we ALL know that ballistic gel is EXACTLY like hide, fir, body fluids and bones...:upeyes:

Yeah, your physics stuff is nonsense. :tongueout:

Rather than comparing kinetic energy between the 10mm/180gr/1300fps and the .45auto/230gr/1010fps, let's compare each bullet's momentum;

.45auto/230gr has 1.03 lb-sec momentum
10mm/180gr has 1.04 lb-sec momentum

Both of these Gold Dot bullets would also perform the same if you added fur, hide and bones as given in the DT data.

Dropping the 180gr Gold Dot down to 1100fps that DT quotes for its .40S&W ammo and we get;

0.88 lb-sec momentum

Had the .40S&W expanded to the 0.95" diameters of the 10mm and .45auto; it would not have penetrated to DT's 14.75", conversely, if the 10mm/.45auto GDs expanded to 0.68", they would have penetrated deeper than 15.25"

I expect your G29 would fall somewhere in between DT's 10mm and .40S&W penetration data, depending upon velocity and expansion.

If you don't like using Double Tap data, that a lot of 10mm shooters like to quote by the way, then post your own street shooting results.

Ballistic gel was designed to replicate soft tissue penetration lengths in humans, that's all.

Mike NcNett's tests;

All of these tests were done using 10% ballistic gelatin provided by Vyse gelatin using all FBI protocols and 4 layers of denim and two layers of light cotton T-shirt in front of the gelatin.

These Double Tap numbers should also make you happy;

DoubleTap .40 S&W Penetration / expansion

180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1100fps - 14.75" / .68"
200gr XTP @ 1050fps - 17.75" / .59"

Bob :cowboy:

Glolt20-91
09-17-2010, 15:19
Since you already have the 21 i'd get a 6" aftermarket bbl and ONLY use 255gr hardcast.

Good idea, 240gr WFN in .44 Special at 700fps is a deep penetrating bullet, imagine the 255gr ballparking 1000fps would bust up bones, just like the .45 Colt does. :supergrin:

Out of a Glock barrel, DT's 10mm 230gr WFNGC has a tendency to tumble and keyhole.

Bob :cowboy:

NonPCnraRN
09-17-2010, 16:23
Since you already have the 21 i'd get a 6" aftermarket bbl and ONLY use 255gr hardcast.

With a 255 gr hardcast bullet you won't get much in the way of a ballistic improvement with the longer barrel. Yes, you will get some, but not enough to matter to the deer. Lightweight hollowpoints would be another story. The longer barrel will not improve the sight radius any either. However after reviewing the youtube video regarding the DT 230 gr 10mm ammo a standard length aftermarket barrel might be necessary for accuracy.

fredj338
09-17-2010, 16:52
Yeah, your physics stuff is nonsense.

Rather than comparing kinetic energy between the 10mm/180gr/1300fps and the .45auto/230gr/1010fps, let's compare each bullet's momentum;
Kegs, you have fallen into the enrgy trap. Comparing a 135gr/10mm to a 185gr/45 is not taking into account sec dens or the bullets ability to penetrate. So you really have to compare 180/10mm to 230gr/45 or 155gr/10mm to 185gr/45, the energy nub,ers are about the same. If you really think that less than 100ft# either way makes a diff, then you don't really understand physics either, or terminal balistics. If the bullet doesn't get to vitals, energy numbers mean very little.

CanyonMan
09-17-2010, 23:35
Yeah, because that physics stuff is nonsense, and biasing your outcomes:


Kegs. Your way off base with this statement hoss. You need to read this again.

Your to hung up on energy dump. "and that from a handgun.."


Duncan MacPherson WTI energy quote

“. . . every now and then someone wants to analyze or think about a problem involving energy, and when they attempt to do this without really understanding energy or other thermodynamic concepts the result is unfortunate. One such problem is the analysis of any of the various aspects of terminal ballistics; some individuals with inadequate technical training and experience have unwisely and unproductively attempted to use energy concepts in the analysis of bullet impact and penetration in soft tissue. (Many others have simply assumed that energy is the dominant effect in Wound Trauma Incapacitation; this assumption is even more simplistic than the attempt to actually analyze the dynamics problem with energy relationships, and is no more successful).

Any attempt to derive the effect of bullet impact in tissue using energy relationships is ill advised and wrong because the problem cannot be analyzed that way and only someone without the requisite technical background would try. Many individuals who have not had technical training have nonetheless heard of Newton’s laws of motion, but most of them aren’t really familiar with these laws and would be surprised to learn Newton’s laws describe forces and momentum transfer, not energy relationships. The dynamic variable that is conserved in collisions is momentum; kinetic energy is not only not conserved in real collisions, but is transferred into thermal energy in a way that usually cannot be practically modeled. The energy in collisions can be traced, but usually only by solving the dynamics by other means and then determining the energy flow.

Understanding energy and how it relates to bullet terminal ballistics is useful even though energy is not a useful parameter in most small arms ballistics work.”





CanyonMan

Glolt20-91
09-18-2010, 01:29
Kegs, you have fallen into the enrgy trap. Comparing a 135gr/10mm to a 185gr/45 is not taking into account sec dens or the bullets ability to penetrate. So you really have to compare 180/10mm to 230gr/45 or 155gr/10mm to 185gr/45, the energy nub,ers are about the same. If you really think that less than 100ft# either way makes a diff, then you don't really understand physics either, or terminal balistics. If the bullet doesn't get to vitals, energy numbers mean very little.

Well written response, we can expand upon MacPherson's momentum quote and make an interesting comparison between a 10mm/180gr GS with 214 more fpe than a .45auto/230gr PDX. As we can see, the extra 214fpe does not mean deeper penetration or larger crush cavity. :supergrin:

10mm 180 gr. Remington Golden Sabre JHP
Impact velocity: 1243 fps/618fpe (handloaded)
Average recovered diameter: 0.698"

Vcav = 389.302 fps
Mw = 58.906 grams (2.078 ounces)
Xcm = 33.361 cm (13.134 inches)

.45ACP Winchester Bonded PDX1 230 gr. JHPImpact velocity: 889 fps (404fpe)
Average recovered diameter: 0.680"

Vcav = 392.366 fps
Mw = 62.603 grams (2.208 ounces)
Xcm = 36.748 cm (14.468 inches)

(***where Vcav equals the lower velocity limit of the cavitation regime, Mw equals the predicted mass of the tissue within the wound cavity and Xcm equals the predicted penetration in soft tissue/calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin)

Explanation by our resident scientist and GT forum member 481;

While sectional density is part of the overall terminal performance picture, that quantity is "redefined" at/during expansion. Penetration depth is inversely proportional to the expanded cross-sectional area of the bullet and directly proportional to the velocity of the bullet at impact. The dimension of the frontal area of the expanded bullet induces drag (effectively behaving as a "brake" within the media) and when this dimension increases (expansion diameter) drag increases by the square of the difference in the expanded radius which is effectively πΔr2


Therefore, while the effect of the difference between the 10mm's and the .45's final expanded diameter might seem small, it isn't.

The sectional density for each respective round drops significantly and the one that expands proportionately less gains an advantage in its 'new' sectional density.

Numerically speaking, the 10mm's sectional density decreases from 0.16071 to 0.05278 (33% of its prior sectional density) and the sectional density of the .45 decreases from 0.16118 to 0.07105 (44% of its prior SD) allowing the .45 load to destroy 6.25% more soft tissue and penetrate 1.33 inches more than the 10mm despite the 10mm load's greater KE (+214 fpe/ +53% more than the .45).

This phenomena clearly demonstrates why a "momentum" model is a better means of quantifying hard terminal ballistic performance than an "energy" model.

Perhaps there's a valid reason why SWAT, Marine Expeditionary Unit and Hostage Rescue Team personnel et al carry 1911/.45autos rather than G29s.

Bob :cowboy:

Erich1B
09-18-2010, 09:29
Well written response, we can expand upon MacPherson's momentum quote and make an interesting comparison between a 10mm/180gr GS with 214 more fpe than a .45auto/230gr PDX. As we can see, the extra 214fpe does not mean deeper penetration or larger crush cavity. :supergrin:

10mm 180 gr. Remington Golden Sabre JHP
Impact velocity: 1243 fps/618fpe (handloaded)
Average recovered diameter: 0.698"

Vcav = 389.302 fps
Mw = 58.906 grams (2.078 ounces)
Xcm = 33.361 cm (13.134 inches)

.45ACP Winchester Bonded PDX1 230 gr. JHPImpact velocity: 889 fps (404fpe)
Average recovered diameter: 0.680"

Vcav = 392.366 fps
Mw = 62.603 grams (2.208 ounces)
Xcm = 36.748 cm (14.468 inches)



Explanation by our resident scientist and GT forum member 481;



Perhaps there's a valid reason why SWAT, Marine Expeditionary Unit and Hostage Rescue Team personnel et al carry 1911/.45autos rather than G29s.

Bob :cowboy:

This thread has been very educational for me. The downside to reading all this is my main CCW weapon is a G29.

So, what to to? Perhaps I need to sell the G29, and genuflect before the alter of .45?

Truth of the matter for me is that regardless of what I carry, I hope I'm never in a situation where I would have to make the decision to use it.

BOGE
09-18-2010, 09:55
...Perhaps there's a valid reason why SWAT, Marine Expeditionary Unit and Hostage Rescue Team personnel et al carry 1911/.45autos rather than G29s.

Bob :cowboy:

That has more to do with wanting to be ``cool`` and trying to maintain an illusion of superiority than stopping power. Less than 0.01% of SWAT members have ever shot someone with a 1911.

g36user
09-18-2010, 11:03
So, what to to? Perhaps I need to sell the G29, and genuflect before the alter of .45?

No, but folks can maybe stop peeing on themselves at the mere mention of 10mm :whistling:

g36user

fredj338
09-18-2010, 11:38
This thread has been very educational for me. The downside to reading all this is my main CCW weapon is a G29.

So, what to to? Perhaps I need to sell the G29, and genuflect before the alter of .45?

Truth of the matter for me is that regardless of what I carry, I hope I'm never in a situation where I would have to make the decision to use it.

No, your G29 & the 10mm are fine, IF you can deliver. The point, if ANYONE really believes that 100ft#s +/- means anything in terminal bnalsitics, then they need to shoot more, a lot more. That isn't even like getting hit by an add'l. 22lr bullet, at least that would be an add'l. wound channel. There just isn't much there, there in 100ft#s of energy especially if the bullet does little work (ie, FMJ or solid lead):dunno:
No, but folks can maybe stop peeing on themselves at the mere mention of 10mm
Agree! It's a great round, I shoot it, but it's NOT a 41mag, not even really close, unless you load it beyond sane levels, & then it only gets close. Stil a ervice round. Many forget that the 45acp is loaded to std pressures in most loadings & getting 1150fps w/ a 185grJHP is no big deal & that bullet, while less SD than a 180gr/10mm @ 1200fps, is going to deliver sim energy & w/ a larger frontal impact surface, puts them pretty even. Any diff will be in bullet contruction.

Erich1B
09-18-2010, 12:11
:laughing::laughing:No, your G29 & the 10mm are fine, IF you can deliver. The point, if ANYONE really believes that 100ft#s +/- means anything in terminal bnalsitics, then they need to shoot more, a lot more. That isn't even like getting hit by an add'l. 22lr bullet, at least that would be an add'l. wound channel. There just isn't much there, there in 100ft#s of energy especially if the bullet does little work (ie, FMJ or solid lead):dunno:

Fred,
I completely agree with you, and my post was meant to be facetious. There are any number of calibers that are sufficient for self-defense - IMHO.

I’ve never believed that the 10mm is vastly superior to other calibers. There is no magic caliber, and no caliber is worth a crap if you don’t hit what you are aiming at. Practice is everything in my opinion. Personally, I just happen to like the 10mm.

But, I also CCW my G33.

However, since I own a 10mm I get to post up stupid pictures like these:
http://www.clipartof.com/images/free_hosting/medium/0180-1009-1813-0721_10mmrulemotivateuf6.jpg (http://www.clipartof.com)
http://www.clipartof.com/images/free_hosting/medium/0180-1009-1813-1049_10mm.jpg (http://www.clipartof.com)

http://www.clipartof.com/images/free_hosting/medium/0180-1009-1813-0822_9vs10mmjokelk3.jpg (http://www.clipartof.com)

..........Erich

Glolt20-91
09-18-2010, 12:21
That has more to do with wanting to be ``cool`` and trying to maintain an illusion of superiority than stopping power. Less than 0.01% of SWAT members have ever shot someone with a 1911.

You have an interesting way of projecting your personality. :wow:

Bob :cowboy:

Glolt20-91
09-18-2010, 12:48
This thread has been very educational for me. The downside to reading all this is my main CCW weapon is a G29.

So, what to to? Perhaps I need to sell the G29, and genuflect before the alter of .45?

Truth of the matter for me is that regardless of what I carry, I hope I'm never in a situation where I would have to make the decision to use it.

I would modify this thought process to read; "If there's imminant danger, I'll do my best to protect myself and others!" Small nuances here, but keep your thought processes positive. :thumbsup: A felon will pick up on any sign of hesitation/indeciveness and exploit it to his advantage; just like any wild charging predator.

The acid test boils down to your quality of training and mental stamina, but, in the end, luck trumps skill any day of the week. I wouldn't sell your G29 for a .45 and begin a new training curve if you're proficient with the G29.

If at some point in time you want to buy a 1911, SIG P series, HK et al in whatever caliber, then there's a standard of training you'll have to buck up to before carrying that sidearm.

Just my $.02

Bob :cowboy:

Erich1B
09-18-2010, 13:12
I would modify this thought process to read; "If there's imminant danger, I'll do my best to protect myself and others!" Small nuances here, but keep your thought processes positive. :thumbsup: A felon will pick up on any sign of hesitation/indeciveness and exploit it to his advantage; just like any wild charging predator.
Bob :cowboy:

Bob,

My hope is always that I would never have to use my weapon. Your reply in blue is a no brainer. I would protect my family and myself. With regards to protecting others - that would be highly situation dependent.

As I indicated in an earlier post, I was initially being facetious.

I have no intention of selling my G29.

Erich

Glolt20-91
09-18-2010, 13:58
Bob,

My hope is always that I would never have to use my weapon. Your reply in blue is a no brainer. I would protect my family and myself. With regards to protecting others - that would be highly situation dependent.

As I indicated in an earlier post, I was initially being facetious.

I have no intention of selling my G29.

Erich

Understand, not inferring that anyone wouldn't protect themselves or loved ones. My intent was based upon experience, in critical situations, one may or may not have intrusive thoughts; therefore . . . improvise, adapt and overcome mentality keeping everything positive.

Since you put it that way, can we talk you into a M1911??? :supergrin:

Bob :cowboy:

Erich1B
09-18-2010, 15:20
Understand, not inferring that anyone wouldn't protect themselves or loved ones. My intent was based upon experience, in critical situations, one may or may not have intrusive thoughts; therefore . . . improvise, adapt and overcome mentality keeping everything positive.

Since you put it that way, can we talk you into a M1911??? :supergrin:

Bob :cowboy:

I get what your saying, a lot can happen in a confrontation. So far, I've not been faced with a situation that would require me to draw my weapon.

LOL regarding a 1911 :supergrin:. If I were to get a 1911, it would be a Sig Sauer RCS two-tone. Beautiful weapon in my opinion.
http://www.clipartof.com/images/free_hosting/large/0180-1009-1816-1959_1911-rcs-tt-detail-l.jpg (http://www.clipartof.com)

CanyonMan
09-18-2010, 16:42
Understand, not inferring that anyone wouldn't protect themselves or loved ones. My intent was based upon experience, in critical situations, one may or may not have intrusive thoughts; therefore . . . improvise, adapt and overcome mentality keeping everything positive.
Since you put it that way, can we talk you into a M1911??? :supergrin:

Bob :cowboy:




All very sound wisdom Bob. No I did not go out and get the 38 super yet ! :tongueout: But as you know, I'm still packin around the M1911 45acp amigo. Just cannot get that thing to stay off me. :supergrin:

Very sound and good posting my friend. You and fred both. ;) I'll just zip it, and say: :thumbsup: Besides you know me. It is bean time ! Gotta go.
(nope, no rattlers tonight, just chicken and burgers). HA.


Stay safe amigos



CanyonMan

fredj338
09-18-2010, 22:18
I get what your saying, a lot can happen in a confrontation. So far, I've not been faced with a situation that would require me to draw my weapon.

LOL regarding a 1911 :supergrin:. If I were to get a 1911, it would be a Sig Sauer RCS two-tone. Beautiful weapon in my opinion.

My most often CCW. No +P ammo, the lt.wt. gun just bucks too much for seriously good shooting.:supergrin:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/DSC_0003_051.jpg

Darkangel1846
09-19-2010, 10:57
The .45acp is known to rip apart a human body. The 10mm is reputed to rip apart the space-time continuum.

I peed myself just typing "10mm."

OMG I just cracked up:rofl:

M&P Shooter
09-19-2010, 11:06
Let me sum up the whole service caliber debate:supergrin:

9mm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ&ob=av2e

357sig
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Hqe3jMHhvA&ob=av3e

.40cal
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYjZK_6i37M&feature=related

45acp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Djj7jW6ny2M&feature=related

10mm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2KM-_zpCno

357 magnum
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09LTT0xwdfw&ob=av3n

dreis454
09-19-2010, 11:21
I would have picked THIS for .45ACP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sO_QntXc-c4

IMO you NAILED 9mm though!:rofl::whistling:

syr74
09-20-2010, 17:33
That has more to do with wanting to be ``cool`` and trying to maintain an illusion of superiority than stopping power. Less than 0.01% of SWAT members have ever shot someone with a 1911.

Of course, because Marine Special Op's no doubt value their pursuit of perfecting the art of 'straight throwing game' far more than using an effective weapon. C'mon, we all know where your loyalties lie and I have no issue with that although I cannot agree. However, there does come a point where we can start to undermine our own position with the things we type, and the above was pushing it to be kind.

TrueGunNut
09-20-2010, 18:58
Difference? Minimal.

Which is better? Well, of course .45AUTO is cooler! Come on! The history, the M1911, the big fat holes on target. 10mm is just..."neat".

:popcorn:

M&P Shooter
09-20-2010, 19:21
Difference? Minimal.

Which is better? Well, of course .45AUTO is cooler! Come on! The history, the M1911, the big fat holes on target. 10mm is just..."neat".

:popcorn:
The 45acp does have some awesome history, check this out:supergrin:

http://www.sightm1911.com/1911%20Myth.htm#Sgt.%20Alvin%20York